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  Discussion on Question on Henneke scoring
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Member:
maximum

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 28, 2007 - 7:05 pm:

Dr. O, I have read, printed out and reread the information on scoring for body condition with the Henneke System. My question is, it mentions that conformational differences may make certain criteria difficult to apply a score to in some animals.
I board a 30 year old arabian, he has been "bony" his whole life,(nickname had always been Ickabod Crane) but still full of life, vim and vigor. Has had his teeth done, wormed, and everything is up to par health wise as far as it can be at his age. No stiffness, no sourness, no joint problems, great feet, thick coat which sheds completely if slowly during the spring. We suspect possible cushonoid, but Vet reccommends waiting until spring to test due to unreliability of test this time of year in our area. When he does gain weight, it is all in his belly unless he is working, being jumped and ridden daily to make him use his top line to develop muscle. He has been this way for his whole life. He is willing to do anything, loves the trails and can go for a three hour trail ride walking and light trotting without breaking a sweat, breathing hard or seeming to struggle in any way. We use him for therapeutic children and very young children three or four times a week to keep him happy. He becomes VERY depressed and goes off feed if he isn't used. I am being subjected to visits by animal welfare because of his condition, although the other horses on the property all are 4 or above on the score. The agent scores this one horse a 1.5, at 1.5 he should be depressed or dead to me.
After all this rambling, my question is, how does one "discount" various areas during the scoring process? Does his age and previous history lend any weight at all to the scoring?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 29, 2007 - 7:17 am:

The age and history does not effect scoring and I do not know of any way to "weight" individual grade factors as you describe. The point is the scale is a set of objective findings that correlate to a grade. You will not find all horses have all the characteristics of a single grade. When this occurs you should average the scoring.

I agree with you, it is very unlikely a horse with a score of 1.5 can do regular 3 hours trail rides without any signs of stress. Carefully reading the descriptions what do you and your veterinarian score the horse at?
DrO
Member:
maximum

Posted on Thursday, Nov 29, 2007 - 9:27 am:

My vet scored him at 4.5. but that doesn't seem to matter the the agent. The owner and I monitor the horse's attitude and contentness frequently and have had discussions concerning putting him down, but he is bright eyed, happy, wants to go and do things with kids. If he were DrOopy, unhappy and obviously exhibiting signs that he was at the end of his time and ready, we would very reluctantly put him down. Niether one of us want him to suffer, but when he leaves the barn in the am running with a two year old, bucking and playing across the pasture, eats everything in front of him and runs to the gate if he sees a child with a halter, well, he just has too much life left in him.
The only concession he has given to his old age is he will wear a blanket without tearing it apart.
Thank you for the advice and after using the body weight formula I found here, I have a weight of 828 for him compared to the 600 something the agent got. Even the weight tape came up with 782. So I will show the agent the formula and have him try it.
We also have decided to change his diet to one in line with a horse with cushings symptoms. Will see if that helps. Vet said not to test him until spring as the test would not be accurate this time of year. He sheds slow, but fully, but perhaps his weight will improve.
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, Nov 29, 2007 - 1:27 pm:

Debra, just an idea to possibly help you out of this dilemma. How about videotaping the horse as he's running and playing and while giving his lessons. I'm assuming the agent only sees the horse for a few moments of time and that the agent will only get a true measure of this horse's good health and energy by watching the horse over a period of time...something that he's not likely doing. Also, I would encourage the owner to collect all medical records to show that the horse is routinely cared for.

By doing these 2 things, if it does come down to the agent's word in court, you and the owner have documentation that the horse is well cared for.

I can empathise with your situation. Where I board my horse, there's a 30 year old paint gelding. Until this summer, he looked beautiful and you would never have pegged him any where near 30. Unfortunately, since the summer, he has lost weight, despite everyone's best efforts. He looks too skinny, but it's the same thing as the horse in your barn: he's happy to give an occassional lesson to a small child, get out of his way when turned out cuz he will take off like a bat out of Hell to join his buddies in the pasture and he still appears to enjoy his life...hard to put down any animal that is not suffering.
Member:
maximum

Posted on Thursday, Nov 29, 2007 - 5:36 pm:

Great advice and I wish I had a video camera or a digital that would do video. I also think it would do a lot to help out.
I used the formula to figure out his weight and I have him at 828 pounds at 14 H. The agent had a tape weight of around 712 which I agree is WAY too light.
He really wants us to feed this horse a high fat processed feed which also contains lots of molases. I have a mare with cushings and thought it would be best to feed him the same diet as her. She lost weight when the frost started hitting the short pasture grass she was on. Does every fall unless I think to put her in a bare pasture, which I dont' have besides the arena. He started DrOpping weight at the same time. So really makes cushings an option. I have her on whole oats, corn oil, vitamins, and beet pulp. She has been gaining her weight back. Owner and I talked about trying him on same diet for a month and see what happens.
What really angers me is that it took several months to convince the agent to call the owner.
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Nov 29, 2007 - 9:46 pm:

Debra,
I own a 35 year old Morgan. A few years ago he lost a lot of weight over winter.

Long story short, you'd never know he was the same horse--healthy and happy. We realized finally that he really couldn't chew well. He now eats wet Senior "mush", and is doing great.

Maybe the horse in question needs some extruded feed-- "pre-chewed" if you will, in order to get the calories and nutrients out of it. Maybe try a brand name senior complete food.

I know my Timmy would send those oats out the other end just as they went in!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 30, 2007 - 9:03 am:

Debra,
a few comments on your last post. You should not look at ideal weights but only evaluate your horse in terms of condition. Yes, knowing the tape measure at a certain condition helps you manage the horse but think it terms of condition. I notice you put the vet's evaluation. What is your evaluation of the condition. It is important you start critically looking at your horse and making decisions.

The diet you describe may be sub-maximal in protein and downright phosphorus deficient depending on the relative amounts of foodstuffs. For more on correcting this problem with beet pulp see the new article, Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Beet Pulp.
DrO
Member:
maximum

Posted on Saturday, Dec 1, 2007 - 6:40 am:

Dr O. Thank you for the comments. The owner and I do look at him often and have discussed on a regular basis if his time is near or here and at one time last summer we almost had him put down. Instead we started using him lightly again and with use, his attitude and zest for life came back. There is a brightness in his eyes that can't be questioned.

I didn't list all he gets to eat and after calling my vet to check as he is familiar with the feeds I use, he says that all is well balanced.

He has free choice hay 24/7 and I am expecting a load of hay out of canada by the end of the month. I found a company with a timothy alfalfa mixture. I will use this as a supplimental hay at night when they are stalled. He is fussy with his hay and I hope this will encourage him to eat a little more.
The vet is familiar with the grower and recommended I use the hay.
Owner and I are going to go over the horse together this week and try scoring the henneke ourselves with the help of handouts and informational pictures we have downloaded. I think getting the "feel" through the winter coat will be the most difficult. And I am certain we will want to score high, but have discussed if we question a score to go lower to be realistic.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Sunday, Dec 2, 2007 - 1:05 am:

What exactly does he get to eat? I'm sorry, I don't quite get what he is eating. I've owned some geriatric horses myself. The oldest one I lost at 38, and was blessed enough to have him for 30 years. 15 of those years he was shown pony hunter. He had no molars in his last years, so we couldn't depend on hay. I had him on Purina Equine Senior top dressed with corn oil. He had a good quality timothy alfalfa mix free fed ( although what he managed to eat went right through him and "came out" intact ). He was also 14h, never lame and was ridden ( gently at wtc ) right up to 2wks before we lost him.
During the last 5 years of his life, I added a noontime feeding ( full ration )and found that it helped keep his weight stable. When he finished eating, he was given some soaked alfalfa cubes before being turned back out. It took a lot of effort to keep pushing all that feed, but it worked. The day he was euthanized, we rushed him to New Bolton, where over a few hours of supportive treatment ( he had colicked that AM) they determined that it was not resolvable. They were anxious to do a necropsy due to his age - They found him to be in excellent health. The cause of death was 2 large lipomas ( benign tumors ) that had strangulated his intestine. They also found a very small pituitary tumor ( Cushings ), Which explained his heavy coat.

I now have a 27 yr old QH mare with Cushings. She showed some dullness in attitude, disinterest in food, topline muscle loss, increased drinking and urination and some foot problems that alerted me. She was tested - in the fall - and the vet said I could wait and test again in the spring ( the test was positive ), or just start the pergolide. I chose to start the pergolide. She perked up after a few days. Over the next few weeks, she changed dramatically. She lost her gut, and muscled out over her topline. Her eyes and attitude brightened up to the extent that she bowed a tendon bucking and flipping out around her pasture. The excessive drinking and urination stopped. Over the last 3 years ( that she has been on pergolide )her hair coat, though still heavy, has evened out completely and sheds out in the spring.

You might consider adding an extra meal, oil ( if he doesn't get it already ), and pergolide. If you don't see a change in a couple of months, you can stop it. The mail order pharmacy I use puts it in an alfalfa flavored chew.

This sounds like a well-loved horse, and the owner seems truly involved and concerned. The change in my mare was dramatic and I will forever feel guilty for repeatedly discounting the possibility of Cushings for more than 2 years before I tested.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Dec 2, 2007 - 10:30 am:

Lee, would you mind posting the name of the pharmacy that has the alfalfa chew with pergolide? It would be so much easier to dose that way. The liquid is oily and esp. in winter more difficult to deal with. thanks.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Dec 3, 2007 - 12:52 am:

Sara: Veterinary Pharmacies of America Inc.
They are in Houston Tx. and the phone # is:
877 838 7979. As you know, you need a prescription. My niece is an equine vet in Mass. and she had some reservations about using a compounding pharmacy - before I ordered, she called and spoke with a pharmacist there and was very satisfied with what she was told. I've been using them nearly 2 years. Their service and their delivery has been great. Also, their prices are very reasonable. They were also very supportive during the time that pergolide was being pulled for human use, by sending letters keeping us fully informed of the situation.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Monday, Dec 3, 2007 - 10:15 am:

Hi Sara,

My boarder uses a compounded pergolide that is a flavored powder. Smells like cotton candy (no idea what it's meant to be) but the horse will lick it out of her feeder. The dosing seems easy and accurate with the powder, though we do sometimes get worried about the wind out here (and there was the incident of the sky bombing bug). I can get the pharmacy info for you, if you want.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 3, 2007 - 10:41 am:

Lee, thanks a lot. I'm going to let my vet know about it.

Elizabeth...sky bombing bug?? (I HAD to ask.)
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