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  Discussion on Diarrhea and feet problems?
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New Member:
winifred

Posted on Friday, Dec 14, 2007 - 4:54 pm:

Hi, I'm new to this club, but looking forwrd to learning from you. My 12 year old paint had laminitis when he was given to me. I've been trimming his hooves regularly and have him on a wedge shoe and his feet are getting better BUT over the past year he has developed chronic diarrhea. Terrible diarrhea, really: watery, lots of farting; I can hear his stomach rumbling when I put my ear against it.

I have had three vets out, neither of which knew what was going on. One did seem particularly concerned, but could come up with no answers. I've tried psyllium, probiotics, worming, everything I've seen mentioned on this site, no help. Right now he's on hay, but is very picky about it, and a senior feed, which he loves.
My questions are (1) is it possible that foot problems and gut problems are related? and (2) can I ride him lightly when his stomach is rumbling so and (3)is it a bad thing to give him a Kaopectic sort of solution, that I found at Southern States last week?

I've read Dr. O's comments about "don't sweat it, It's more normal than you think," and I find that very comforting, actually, but am, oh so tired of washing this tail every day, or twice a day, especially now that it's getting cold in Virginia.

I'll just love anything that anyone has to offer.

Winifred






It is hard, hard to wash a dirty tail every day, or several times a day, especially with winter coming on.

Anything that anyone has to suggest will be most appreciated. His name is Buck, and he is a lovely, sweet horse.
Member:
shirl

Posted on Friday, Dec 14, 2007 - 5:33 pm:

Welcome to the Group,
Do you have him on any medication in relation to the Laminitis?
Has any one suggested he might have ulcers?
Dr. O and others will chime in here, but I'm wondering about the above issues.
Hope things get better soon for you. What you describe isn't normal I don't believe.

Shirl
New Member:
winifred

Posted on Friday, Dec 14, 2007 - 5:59 pm:

Thank you, Shirley. Yes, the last vet did check him for ulcers, and decided no.
He also thought it might be a good idea to put him down. That would be nearly impossible for me to do. He is so kind.
But I also want to be kind.
Thank you for your input.
Winifred
Member:
majoda92

Posted on Friday, Dec 14, 2007 - 6:34 pm:

Hi Winifred, you have come to a great place to seek answers to your questions! There is a wealth of info on this site. I have an older horse, Jack, who is 25 now. For the past few winters he has developed diarrhea for no apparent reason. We worm him, cut out most of his concentrated feed (not that he gets much!) and have given him medication for it, but it still comes back.The thing I read about last week which seems to be helping is dry beet pulp. He is definitely less messy. Not a 100% yet, but definitely improved. You might want to give it a try. Just make sure it's shredded, and not the hard pellets. It really is not fun to wash poopy tails when it's 25 degrees outside!! (No heated wash stall in our barn!) Don't think Jack likes it much either. I am curious as to why the one vet recommended putting him down. Does he have other issues besides the laminitis and diarrhea?

Diane
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Dec 14, 2007 - 9:38 pm:

Hi, Winifred -- I had the problem that you are describing with one of mine for TEN YEARS. Tried the probiotics and everything that you can think of. What I think made the difference was Dr. O's worming program -- make sure that you give the extra amount for error above what is prescribed for the horse's weight, and the Moxidectin year really seemed to help my boy. Also, getting perfect balance into the feet after years of special shoeing, etc., (barefoot for over a year and moving wonderfully with no pain) resulted in no more foot pain (which is a stress). My wonderful farrier claims partial credit, and I think that he may be right. Any pain or excitement (stress) or change in diet would cause a heightened problem for my boy. I cannot believe that after so many years of tail and leg washing, I've not had a problem for nearly 2 years now. And mostly, I thank Dr. O's worming program.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Dec 14, 2007 - 9:41 pm:

Hi, Winifred -- I had the problem that you are describing with one of mine for TEN YEARS. Tried the probiotics and everything that you can think of. What I think made the difference was Dr. O's worming program -- make sure that you give the extra amount for error above what is prescribed for the horse's weight, and the Moxidectin year really seemed to help my boy. Also, getting perfect balance into the feet after years of special shoeing, etc., (barefoot for over a year and moving wonderfully with no pain) resulted in no more foot pain (which is a stress). My wonderful farrier claims partial credit, and I think that he may be right. Any pain or excitement (stress) or change in diet would cause a heightened problem for my boy. I cannot believe that after so many years of tail and leg washing, I've not had a problem for nearly 2 years now. And mostly, I thank Dr. O's worming program, and the well-balanced feet -- my boy was tender-footed for years.
Member:
frances

Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 8:14 am:

Hi Winifred, you might want to check out Biosponge, by Platinum Performance. If you type biosponge into the search engine on this site, you will find some discussions on this product, which many members felt was helpful, and there's also an article on it by DrO.

Good luck!
New Member:
winifred

Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 8:56 am:

I really appreciate the input; what a great site this is.
It was interesting to read that Vicki's horse also had foot problems, and it makes sense to me that the stress of foot pain would cause diarrhea. The thing is, though, that his feet are better now. When they were so bad that he just lay in his stall all day, he had no diarrhea. He's far, far better now, as far as his feet goes. I was riding him lightly almost every day until this diarrhea got so bad a few months ago.
I'll definitely look into Dr. O's worming program. I gave him Zimectin Gold, on the recommendation of a friend last week, but no improvement. I also tried that Kaopectic stuff; nothing.
He's not losing weight yet, which is strange to me, considering that he's contributing about 20 splats a day to my pasture and barnyard (no kidding) but he's become very picky about hay, just spreads it around hoping there's some grass forage in there. He just wants senior feed...and I don't know if I'm spoiling him with it or not. Seems like he needs hay to bulk him up on the inside. I don't know.
I honestly am pretty frustrated, and cannot thank you enough for your help.
Winifred
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 9:04 am:

Hi Winifred, My horse Hank also has/had laminitis. He also would get diahrea, terrible gas....to the point of gas colic, his white socks and tail would be full of green yuck. Every step that boy took would be followed by a fart...it was almost funny.

Because of his laminitis I started him on a low carb diet. He only gets stemmy grass hay, a cup of alfalfa pellets, and a cup of safechoice pellets.

Since the removal of "rich foods" including any kind of grain, limited grass and absolutely no type of alfalfa hay all of this has turned around...he never has gas anymore or the rumbly tummy EXCEPT if I let him graze longer than 4 hrs. on grass...even dead type grass.

I have a post in here under obese horse nutrition called Hanks weight watchers diet, and one of the things I posted towards the end was the big difference in his gas colics. Hank is now barefoot and doing very well since his founder which was pretty bad...I think eliminating carbs of any sort as much as possible anyway saved him. His feet use to be pulsy and tender quite often. Good Luck figuring this out.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 9:13 am:

Just noticed you said he gets senior feed, maybe eliminating that and getting some sort of low carb feed would help...There are many low carb feeds out there Hank has done well on the safechoice and alfalfa pellets. If I recall some senior feeds are pretty high in sugar, some aren't guess it depends on the brand you feed. Just some thoughts
Member:
stevens

Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 9:39 am:

Hi Winifred,

I had an aged Quarter Horse with the same problem. In his case, it turned out that he was really enjoying his salt block. A trainer mentioned to me that she watched him one day and if he wasn't eating hay or napping, he was at the salt block and then drinking. I removed the salt block and things firmed up. He was fed oat hay, supplemented with sr feed and pellets.

He never had what I would consider "normal" manure, but at least I wasn't having to wash his rear end daily or get sprayed when he farted!!

Good Luck!
Chris
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 10:58 am:

Welcome Winifred,
While there are some chronic diarrheas that are innocuous, it is not true of all chronic diarrheas. There is a plethora of diarrhea therapies you have not mentioned and information on kaopectate at Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview. But before we get any further with your questions and assume your case is one the "don't sweat it" types I would like to know are there any other problems (historical?, exercise intolerance?, weight loss?, physical exam?, or laboratory work?) that have been identified with this horse? Is the CBD and a standard chem 16 lab panel normal?
DrO
New Member:
winifred

Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 3:06 pm:

He has had blood and fecal samples taken, and has been cleared for Salmonella and Potomac Fever (not sure of that name.) His temperature is always normal, his eyes are always clear and kind, he has a good winter coat starting....and he keeps a slimy poopy tail and back legs, even though I wash him twice a day, which is becoming more difficult, now that it's getting colder. I'm giving him an immersian hot water heater for Christmas, which should help things!
I am now stopping his senior feed, in an attempt to make him eat hay. And I'm giving him a handful of alfalfa pellets once a day, out of my hand (he will only eat it out of my hand!), to increase his fiber intake. I'm mixing grass forage in with his hay to try to make him eat hay, but he's very skillful in just taking the grass forage out.
He has had diarrhea for roughly a year and a half. About a year ago I did the Panacur treatment, with five subsequent doses, and it worked, but only for a month. Then the cow patties returned, and, now, total diarrhea again.
I'm afraid I cannot answer your question about the CBD and a standard chem l6 lab panel; I can only assume that my vet has done those tests; he is as mystified, and as concerned, as I am.

He was ridden hard as a saddlehorse before his owner gave him to me two years ago, because of his founder. I've cared for his feet, and they've vastly improved. He has a lovely disposition, and is so worth keeping.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 3:24 pm:

Hi Winifred,

I agree with LL on the biosponge. Ask your vet about it to ensure it's worth a shot and won't hurt your sweet boy to try it. I've tried it and it worked.

https://www.platinumperformance.com/animal/equine/products/productcategories/prod uct.cfm?category_id=162

Good luck!
New Member:
winifred

Posted on Sunday, Dec 16, 2007 - 9:04 am:

Thanks, Aileen. I talked with my vet yesterday about Biosponge, and he's sending some out next week. I'll try it, and let you know. My fingers are crossed, he IS a sweet boy.
Winifred
New Member:
lafouert

Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2007 - 10:00 am:

Hi Winifred and welcome,

A Quarter Pony that started boarding with us had a similar chronic problem. He was extremely gassy and painted the walls with his diarrhea. We took him off of everything but grass hay and the problem went away. It seemed the richer mixtures of hay caused his gastric distress. Even if your horse is picky about his hay, with grass hay as his only feed he will begin eating it when he gets hungry enough. He could be hypersensitive to the carbs in the hay and it could be contributing to his laminitis problems. This pony gets literally only a handful of Strategy Feed as well so he is not left out at feeding time. He is quite chubby just on his ration of grass hay. Some horses are just that way.

Good Luck!!

Lee Ann
Member:
deedles5

Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2007 - 1:47 pm:

I agree with the previous post -- NO senior, no grain, maybe no alfalfa pellets, just grass hay, salt, with some beet pulp if he starts losing condition.

I would not ride a horse who is laminitic. Many founders (including the one I am dealing with )fare much better without shoes (only if properly trimmed, not necessarily trimmed as if for shoes)
If they are sore, get boots for him, they are a godsend.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2007 - 3:59 pm:

Thanks, I've eliminated his senior feed altogether, but am still mixing in grass forage to make him eat hay. He got so thin, the last acute episode he had, and I'm trying to avoid that. He still looks good and healthy, and I'm waiting for the Biosponge to come this week. He's still showing no signs of improvement, still just as messy as ever. Will my water heater/hose attachment EVER come???
When I say "ride", it probably doesn't mean what all of you mean. To me, it means getting on his bare back with a halter, and walking him around in the woods, around the pond, for a half hour or so. Sometimes he breaks into a gaited run, which is lovely, but is usually his idea. Just wanted you to know that I am far from an accomplished horsewoman, just a regular person who loves this horse, who is my only horse.
Member:
122756

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 18, 2007 - 4:06 pm:

Hi--I'm curious as to what kind of hay you are feeding? Sounds like you are mixing a small amount of some type of grass hay into some other type of hay? I live in the Pacific Northwest, and we have a very popular type of grass hay over here that's called "orchard grass"--its usually a beautiful green hay, large bales, and less expensive than timothy. I have heard from my vet that even though it's a grass hay it is notorious for causing diarrhea. Many horses adjust after a few days and the diarrhea goes away, but I can not keep my horse on it as she gets persistantloose stools. So, I'm wondering if the "grass forage" you are mixing in with your hay may be a contributing factor to the diarrhea?? I'm certainly no expert but just thought I'd mention this.

Good luck finding resolution...sounds like a miserable situation for you and your horse.

Beth
Member:
winifred

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 18, 2007 - 5:14 pm:

Thanks, Beth. This is known as "grass forage" or maybe "forage grass" and is sold in 50 pound bags at Southern States here in VA. My husband bought it last week because there was no "good" hay available. It's very short, and has a little molasses in it, to keep down the dust, the bag says.
This horse spurns all the hay I have bought, both square bales and round, and this makes him at least give it a shot. I don't think this product is the cause of his diarrhea, because it started so long ago. I'm just trying to wean him off of grain and onto hay (fiber) as I have been advised to do.
Maybe (maybe??) he's just a spoiled brat; he follows me around to the chicken coop, if you can believe that, hoping for some DrOpped corn.
He has begun to eat the hay in the utility shed, bending down the fence to get to it, never mind that there is an embarrasing amount of hay in boxes and nets, all over the place, available for him to eat. I think that if I put up a sign saying NO HORSES ALLOWED, he would like it a lot better!
The Biosponge arrived today, he's totally off senior feed, and we'll just see. I washed him this morning, 25 degrees, neither of us had much fun. He is messy again already.

Thank you all, again, for your input.

Winifred
Member:
paardex

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2007 - 1:13 pm:

Hi Winifred, the grass forage you describe resembles the food the Dutch farmers feed their dairy cows. It usually is grass cut in a short[and thus rich] stage with a little molasses[for taste] and less dry than 'normal' hay.
It most certainly is richer and thus causes loads of diarrhea problems with horses. It will not have caused the problems your horse has but doesn't sound suitable for a 'problem'horse.
Just wanted to tell you,
Jos
New Member:
lynnebc

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2007 - 4:03 pm:

Around these parts most of the hay is grown on dairy farms so it is fertilized and considered quite rich hay. One of my friends has a horse (very easy keeper) that had recurring diarrhea that didn't go away until she switched to non-fertilized first cut stemmy hay that she has to buy from a hobby farmer. The horse doesn't have any problems now unless she gets into her barn buddy's hay.

You might want to consider a vitamin / mineral supplement, especially with all of the diarrhea.
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