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Discussion on Mare won't lose weight!
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New Member:
rockin
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Posted on Monday, Dec 24, 2007 - 11:16 pm:
Hi all! I discovered this site last week and have been on here non-stop since! I finally signed up with the hope that someone can find my "missing link".
My 15.1hh appendix QH mare (lineage mostly TB, looks 100% QH) is FAT! I recently moved her to a new stable, and before we moved, I had her down to a lean 975-980 lbs (a body score of 5). She has been a fatty her whole life, literally, and I finally put the work into DrOpping 300+lbs off of her due to mysterious lameness issues. They didn't clear up without the extra weight, by the way, and the source is still mysterious in spite of x-rays, flexion tests, hoof testers, shoes, etc...
She maintained this weight throughout the summer (we have temps of about 20-30 degrees C: 68-86 for the Americans, with deer fly and mosquito populations higher than most places in the entire world - not horse friendly!).
However, this winter, she began to rapidly gain weight! She is back up to about 1100 lbs in spite of a very modest diet; a body score of 6.5-7.
She is down to about 15-20 lbs of medium quality grass hay (timothy & orchard grass mixture), a salt & mineral block, and vitamin supplement. I cannot say exactly how much hay she gets each day as she is turned out with 6 other horses and gets a portion of 2 bales. Only one flake (4 lbs fairly consistently) is given to her when she gets inside for the night. This is the same hay (same provider) as she received last winter during the weight loss process, and the growing season was poorer, so I would assume that the nutritional value is less, if any different.
I have started working her for 30 minutes at a hard working trot through snow (feet sink about 2 feet down) every day, in spite of her lameness. She works hard, and gets quite sweaty in spite of the temperatures which are typically about -5 to -20 fahrenheit or -20 to -30 celsius. She does not tolerate more exercise than the 30 minutes, as her lameness gets worse if she works for much longer than this (even 45 minutes is too much!) I have experimented with a few days a week of longer exercise with poor results, and also with slower exercise for longer periods with ouchy results. She does not improve with bute, and joint supplements (glucosamine, chonDrOintin, MSM) help to keep her comfortable, but not with hard work.
This feed/work regime has been consistent for the past 2+ months, since it truly started to get cold (and she truly started to get fat). Oh, and I know that each horse has his/her own individual fat areas, but she seems to have little fat covering on her neck & shoulders. In fact, it is almost all on her withers, back, and in between her non-existent ribs. In her neck, shoulder, and hip, she would still score a 5. In the belly/wither - an 8. It doesn't hang, it's just fatty.
She walks through snow (lightly packed in some places, very deep in others) all day while out (about 9-10 hours per day), with a 7 acre pasture for 7 horses. When she comes in, it is into an unheated riding arena that is also not insulated, so it is more or less the same temperature as outside but sheltered from wind/snow.
SO, with all of that information: am I missing something that would easily help her lose weight? I can't work her more (and really, she is getting worked fairly hard as it is, considering the depth of the snow in that arena!) I could cut her hay consumption back inside the barn, but only minimally or she would be without any hay for hours. I could leave her on her own during the day with only 2 flakes of hay, but she would be distressed (hates being alone and there isn't anyone to turn her out with) and would likely hurt herself so that I could not work her at all. It would be difficult for me to find a lower quality hay that would be clean of dust/mould, and I don't think that the stuff she gets now is terribly high calorie. Should I move her to somewhere that she could be restricted in her diet & have a buddy? If I do this, I will not be able to work her daily as there isn't anywhere else close enough to home...
Could she have some sort of endochrine/metabolism problem without any other symptoms than being overweight and sore? No heat, swelling, etc. She also has a great coat and good feet, good teeth...
Any suggestions? Sorry for the horribly long post (and really, who wants to come to Manitoba after my wonderful climate descriptions?)
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 - 3:40 am:
Is there a possibility to give all horses les hay during the day and the ones who need it more during the night? That's what I try to do at the moment to get the fatty slimmer: almost no food during the day just exercize by playing together and the broodmares their biggest portion during the night when Grasse is locked up next to them.
Jos
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 - 7:01 am:
Hi Erin, Can I sypathize! My climate isn't quite as cold, but still brutal enough. Kudos for working your horse in it.
My horse is a 15.1hh qh/tb cross with some pony thrown in there. I gotta say if I fed him 20 pounds of hay a day he would be huge.
There is a good article in here about obese horse nutrition. I found with my horse I had to feed him 1% of what his bwt should be. If I wanted him to weigh 1000#'s he got 10 pounds of hay and feed combined weight.
I have found now that he is in good weight...but no exercise other than being out 24/7 and it is quite cold...he is holding his own on 1.5% of his bwt in feed. I have a hard time in the winter keeping him in good weight, because of the cold I tend to over feed. I wonder if your horse isn't getting quite a bit hay outside. Mine get fed in the morning 4 pounds of hay.... at night I give them the majority of their hay 8-10#'s some of that is stemmy hay.
What Dr.O. has told me many times is to loose weight cut feed and/or up exercise, sounds simple doesn't it? I know it's hard!
I have a post under this obese horse nutrition "Hanks weight watchers diet" the members and Dr.O. gave me good advice there and encouragement Good Luck
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New Member:
rockin
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 - 12:12 pm:
Thanks for the quick replies! And Diane; reading your post on Hank's diet was about half the reason I joined! I loved the pics you posted! Rockin isn't quite that overweight (yet) but still... I'd like her around a 5.
The 20 lbs estimate would be only on days where (for some reason) she got a huge share of hay... I think that she is probably getting about 2-3 flakes outside, and definitely only .5-1 inside. So, I guess a more accurate estimate would be 10-16 lbs of hay... I just like to guess on the high side (I'm the "fat police").
The only way to cut her hay outside would be to turn her out separately... if I can avoid it, I will, but if it's a matter of need I'm sure I can do that too.
I wonder how effective a grazing muzzle would be for eating flakes of grass hay, since the strands don't sit upright? Obviously, they have NO grass outside since it's a "winter wonderland" around here. Any experience with these when horses are eating only hay? Also, she would have to wear it for about 9 hours a day. Is this OK?
I guess the struggle for all of us is finding the balance between colic and fat. If the grazing muzzle idea would be OK, I think this might be my best bet, considering her exercise level is already at the max.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 - 4:19 pm:
Hi Erin, I know of people that use a grazing muzzle with hay and it could be a good choice for you.
I know it would be hard with your turnout situation, but knowing exactly how much hay she is eating...by weighing it....is the only way you know what she gets for sure. They can surprise you.
I have learned the hard way that hay can vary season to season...bale to bale.I guess the best way is to have it analyzed, but I have learned to rely on the taste test....not very scientific but when I open new bales of hay if they are fighting over a certain bale...I know that is the sweet stuff. I have some stemmy first crop hay that I THOUGHT they would pick at, NO THEY LOVE IT, way more than the green, soft second crop. It has to be because it is higher in sugar so I take it easy on the hay they like, really does work.
She really don't sound very overweight from your description, with the brutal cold I have excepted a 6 as good weight for winter, and it sounds like your winters are much more harsh. Do you have a pic of her you could post?
Have you read the article on EMS? Unfortunately the only way for her to loose weight is cut calories. Is she prone to colic? I never had a colic since starting their diet, Hank use to colic more when he wasn't on a diet. They are without hay from 8am until 4pm. They scarf up their hay and are without hay from 7pm til I feed again in the morning. They are outside and can paw up some slim pickins but that's it. I would be tempted to try a fat pen for her if the muzzle don't work, that way you know exactly how much she is getting by weighing the hay. Good Luck, I'm sure Dr.O. will have some words of wisdom for you
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New Member:
rockin
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 - 4:43 pm:
I know, I would also LOVE to know exactly how much hay she gets. The barn owners really like fatties where she is now... I would hate to move her to somewhere that I couldn't get there every day!
Hmm... I wonder if I could cut her hay inside to nothing? She's not colic prone, but I guess 15 hours without anything sounds like quite a bit to me! Not that 1 flake lasts her more than an hour or so, anyways, but you know how it is!
I agree, the "fat pen" idea is 2nd best. I'm wondering if horses can get hay through a grazing muzzle (since the strands lay flat on the ground instead of poking up), but horses are rather resourceful that way, so I'm sure she'd get enough to entertain herself.
I'm out at the farm every day around supper time, and I weigh her hay when I go out (obsessively, haha!) It's never been more than 4 lbs or less than 3 when it's a full flake, but I'm sure it does vary from time to time.
I know that a 6.5 body score isn't terrible, but I far prefer a 5.5 at the most, especially in a horse that's lame and doesn't do much hard work. I will get some pics ASAP, but it will probably be tough to judge, since her hair is about 1 1/2'' long and very thick. And yes, I know that this makes her look fatter, but I honestly can't feel between her ribs, although her neck and some other areas have virtually no fat on it.
You know, the more I type, the sillier this question sounds. Of course I know it's calories in minus calories out... doesn't everyone hope for the magic cure though? :-) I guess it's also because she seems to be keeping the weight on a great deal more, and cycling a lot (still now, in the winter! But there are 2 studs and she's pretty smitten... does that make a difference?)
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 - 6:14 pm:
Welcome Erin,
I have used a grazing muzzle on my little guy when he got really fat and my schedule didnt allow for any consistent riding time. At the time he was pretty much getting mostly hay, with some limited good grass time. He was on a round bale that he shared with one other horse. He's pretty much the kind of pony that never stops eating if there's anything remotely resembling food in front of him. The grazing muzzle worked wonders. He still ate all the time, but he got less with each mouthful. He was up in the 6.5-7 range and I got him down to the 5.5 range, with only the grazing muzzle. We used the deluxe grazing muzzle that has been recommended by other muembers on this site. I never had any problems with rubs. Good luck.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 - 6:16 pm:
Erin Hank hated the grazing muzzle and totally lost his mind in it. Someone on here said they cut the hole a little bigger and that helped their horse.
That's what I did to Hanks and he soon became perfectly content, yet couldn't get too much....maybe making the hole a bit bigger would help her be able to get some hay.
I hope for the magic cure...but when I was feeding Hank what I thought was nothing, my vet said to cut that in half because he wasn't loosing weight.
Dr.O. also has that logic too. Just seems so simple doesn't it? It's not tho for some reason, I struggle daily not to over feed.
2 studs around my mare would put her in continuous heat!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 - 7:59 pm:
Hi Erin,
I can't add much to this, except that I'd be tempted to try the muzzle: you can count poop piles overnight for a fast check that she isn't starving.
I know this thread is focused on her weight rather than her lameness, but the lameness mostly likely requires less work than more, which unfortunately narrows your options.
Good luck, and welcome to the boards!
- Elizabeth
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New Member:
rockin
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 - 9:13 pm:
Thanks all! I think that I am going to "bite the bullet" and have my vet out to check up again on the lameness AND the weight issue while he's at it. It's more than likely to cost me both arms to get bloodwork, x-rays, and whatever else, but hopefully he can rule out any real issues, and maybe give me some idea of how much I can work her without hurting her.
If all is well with her health, I will definitely try the muzzle. Thanks for the support in that! I've never seen someone use one for a dry lot before, so I wasn't sure if it was practical there. I don't really mind it if she can't get much, as long as she doesn't get NONE and become really frustrated. She'll probably get some of her buddies to take it off for her!
If Dr. O happens to read this thread... any thoughts on specific things I should ask my vet to check for? Haha, hopefully not pregnancy! (just kidding...) Considering she gets less food here (would have definitely had about 15-18 lbs of grass hay and about 1 lb soaked beet pulp before), and more exercise here (before only had about 7-8 hours of turnout and 20 min light exercise 5X per week), would it just be age/metabolism causing her to gain, or some potential issues?
I probably should have mentioned earlier that her weight has increased in spite of the decrease in food.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 26, 2007 - 6:35 am:
Erin getting the vet involved is probably a good idea. I'm still paying Hanks off.
I don't know if it's true, but I have read that horses that are IR tend to get "footy" when getting to much sugar....Hank does....even on good grass hay, any alfalfa sends him over the edge.
Where does her lameness seem to come from? Let us know what the vet says! Good Luck.
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Member:
maximum
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 26, 2007 - 6:46 am:
A friends horse kept gaining with little feed and it was a thyroid issue. Would have tests done to rule it in or out.
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New Member:
rockin
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 26, 2007 - 12:26 pm:
I will definitely check up on thyroid, etc, although she doesn't exhibit any other symptoms (poor hair coat, bad lethargy, etc.) although her skin is dryer than usual.
The lameness... ugh, another mystery! I had her nerve blocked before (needle went just above the coronet band: not sure about correct anatomical term for specific block). The lameness that she had been exhibiting WAS a lot less, but she still looked quite stiff in her gait.
She also x-rayed clean from the knee down in front. I have never felt any heat, swelling, etc. and have never had a pain reaction, even with hoof testers, in any part of her legs.
However, when I massage her behind her shoulders, she flattens her ears and even bites at me at times (she's usually quite stoic about any kind of pain) so I wonder if it isn't at least largely in the shoulder?
She also clicks in one hind leg, but she has done so since she was 2 (at least, this is when I started riding her so it could have started earlier) but apparently didn't have any previous injuries. No heat/swelling/pain obvious in the hind end, either.
The lameness shows up as a shortened forward stride in the front right. This improves slightly with a few days' being buted at 3g/day (just tried this recently as a last resort... I don't usually bute her) but certainly doesn't bring her to 100%
I can never keep these posts short & sweet! It's difficult to know which of these details is important, since I have no concrete idea where the pain comes from.
Anywhoo, I will definitely let everyone know what the vet says. After reading a couple of "surprise baby" posts, I'm getting a bit paranoid about the weight around her mid section! No bagging up or udder sensitivity or anything, though... if she is preggers, we can just call it the "Horseman's Advisor Curse/Blessing".
Which leads me to a freaking-out mother question for a vet/experienced breeder: is it OK to breed a 13 year old maiden mare?! People around here don't breed this late very often in a maiden, but...
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 26, 2007 - 10:08 pm:
Welcome Erin,
I do not know of a way to easily get weight off an easy keeper. The article describes the procedure I use and while you need help diagnosing the lameness (see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse.
I would not put lots of money into diagnostics for the obesity: the treatment is always the same.
DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 - 8:00 am:
Erin, I missed your last post before posting my last response. I often find once members stop worrying about the things they think "maybe wrong" but they are not sure that they have "no worries" and things are fine for years.
Before you spend money on "hypothyroid" be sure to see our article in the Endocrine Disease section as this is a very unlikely problem in the adult horse. The treatment for obese horses is in the article associated with this discussion.
If you will contact the vet find out which block was given and how the veterinarian interpreted the results we can give you some direction perhaps.
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 - 12:16 pm:
OK, so I guess shape & metabolism change fairly quickly as horses age...
If it's not of enough concern to have the vet out, I'll probably just try the grazing muzzle. Does anyone know if it will be a problem in below freezing weather, at all?
Oh, and the nerve block was (I'm fairly certain) in the navicular bursa. It took away some of the limp, but none of the stiffness at all, and her x-rays were perfectly fine. My vet seemed confident that the lameness was from that area at the time, but since she only ever shows pain in the shoulder area, I'm somewhat skeptical. I'm hoping that the soreness and especially the pain behind her shoulders will get better as she loses weight, although it didn't happen that way last time.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 - 1:33 pm:
Hi Erin, alot of horses seem sore in the shoulder area when their feet hurt. I'm not saying it's not her shoulder..but bear in mine that stiffness and "shoulder lameness" are sometimes the result of sore front feet too.
I don't know about the muzzle in cold weather, you have to wonder if their breath wouldn't freeze in there. Good luck sorting it all out
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 - 4:58 pm:
Hey Erin,
Dumb suggestion-- has her weight gain effected her saddle fit? I guess I'm confused from your description whether there's an actual lameness here or a painful back or something else. If she's moving short under saddle and crabby about her shoulder/wither area, it's fast and cheap to check her saddle fit. That won't rule out other problems, but won't hurt either.
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 - 8:57 pm:
Elizabeth, that's not a dumb suggestion at all! Unfortunately, I don't ride the mare much at all anymore, and when I do (once or twice a month), it's bareback to keep warm. I just free lunge her in large spaces, so that she doesn't have to move in tight circles or anything like that and doesn't have to wear any "gear".
Thanks for the great idea though, I bet that many people wouldn't think of that!
Updates: I realised tonight (duh!) that my weight tape shrinks a teensie bit in this weather, so counting that and her hair bulk, she might only be taping (if I compensate) at 1033, NOT 1100. Which, I guess, would put her at about 30-70 lbs overweight; not too bad. How embarrassing... simple science principle, and I don't think of it! But the protruding sides still bug me...
My vet thinks a visit is warranted to check out a few complaints (he usually tells me how to "fix" things over the phone if he feels he can... very lucky me $$$) so I will let you all know next week the results of any tests/examinations.
I will also post some new pics of my wooly girl around the same time; we'll see what you all think: hairy or fat?
Here is a pic of her this past spring after losing 300 lbs. Her ribs aren't visible here, but she still has a bit of winter covering (although she's shedded out around the neck, legs & hips already). Sorry, I cut her face off while editing it to fit in this message!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Dec 28, 2007 - 4:37 am:
Erin, she looks good in the above pic.
Good Luck figuring out the fat or hair thing...I put the tape away this winter. I am trying to go by look and feel. Hank doesn't get as wooly as my arab gelding Sam. Sam with all his hair appears to be much much fatter than he is. Your mare may just have a bit of a hay belly.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2007 - 10:16 am:
For more on the meaning of a response to a navicular bursa block see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Overview of Diagnosis and Diseases of the Foot. Did the veterinarian agree that there was still lameness/stiffness? In the article I reference is a discussion on treating undiagnosed foot lameness. What did the veterinarian recommend?
DrO
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2007 - 11:43 am:
He did agree that there was still a very pronounced stiffness, but at the time, we felt that it could just be from being sore (moving stiffly) for so long.
He recommended that I DrOp a LOT of weight off of her, and if she was still lame, that I try shoes, massage & gentle stretching. I did all of these, and there is still no change. Actually, it almost seems that stretching makes her lameness more obvious, and massage under her shoulders makes her look murderous (yes, I know that's because she's sore, but she's usually very stoic). She does not test sore with hoof testers in any area (I'm not sure how important this is?).
This past summer (since our bugs are horrid and my mare is very sensitive to bites all of a sudden) he suggested that I put fly boots on, which helped somewhat, but that could be due to less shock to any area of the foot/leg/shoulder/back... She's never been lame in the winter before, so it's obviously escalating.
I will definitely let you all know what he says after Wednesday.
Question about "hay bellies"... would a horse be likely to suddenly develop one after decreasing hay consumption?
Thank you all so much for help, suggestions, and mostly support! Dr. O, thanks a million for all of the time you put into this. I appreciate the advice, and so does my mare!
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Member:
ktrezise
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Posted on Monday, Dec 31, 2007 - 2:13 pm:
Hi all. My fat Irish pony mare wears a grazing muzzle all the time, and can eat haylage out of a small holed net dangling in mid-air, through a 1.5cm hole! The only problems I've had in cold weather are that snow can sometimes ball on the fabric bits, and the metal clips need wrapping to prevent freezing to her face (although it doesn't get as cold here as where some of you are)
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 2, 2008 - 5:08 pm:
OK, so here's the "scoop" from the vet visit:
The lameness is actually in the foot (nerve block worked again, and on the opposite leg to the one I thought!). He thinks that the shoulder lameness is definitely an effect of the foot being sore. It isn't characteristic of any "major" problems, and is probably just chronic because it keeps taking a beating.
He feels that he didn't need to do any blood tests, since she doesn't fit any physical profiles of any metabolic, etc. issues, and said that even with horses, metabolism DrOps with age. He also said that the combination of age, stress, and hormone fluctuation (2 studs around suddenly) could contribute to fatness (lol!).
SO the solution is this: she is going to live in the outdoor arena during the day with minimal hay (fat pen). The grazing muzzle is a no-go, since there are all kinds of safety issues with her being in a group pen and it being so cold.
He had said that I probably should try to work her a bit less if possible, since she's been quite sore, but that I still need to keep it up a bit to keep her fit.
Now I feel silly for having the vet out! But, he actually negotiated the fat-pen deal :-) which I was not able to do before, so I guess it's worth every penny (and that's a big stack of pennies...).
Thanks to all for your help!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 6:05 am:
Thanks for the update Erin,
the additional information on the lameness being localized to the foot is worth a bunch but I remain confused about it somewhat: was there lameness remaining following the block and how are you localizing it to the shoulder?
DrO
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 9:01 am:
Following the block there was still the stiffness I described happening last time, but definitely the head bob went away and so did the limp. She is sore to touch under the shoulders, which was my concern before, so that's why I mentioned them. The vet felt that the soreness in the shoulders, armpits & girth area was a result of moving poorly due to the lameness, and that I shouldn't worry about it. I'm not saying that the stiffness comes solely from those areas, but I think she's likely to have a whole-body stiffness after being lame off and on for 2 years, so it's not unexpected.
I have to admit... I'm still a teensy bit skeptical that losing weight is going to take away this lameness, since it didn't even help last time. However, last time was just going into bug season, so I guess I should count that in.
Anywhoo... here is a "fat" pic of the mare, with her fluffy (dirty) winter coat.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 4:06 pm:
Has she ever had extended time off from work? Sometimes lameness won't get any better if work continues. It's very hard for me to work a lame horse, even the trotting that's needed for diagnosis makes me cringe. She does look a bit big for those feet, but maybe they are just buried in the soft footing. Not much to be done to change small feet, gotta love those halter horse breeders who decided small feet looked better. What were they thinking??
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 5:17 pm:
Julie, she wasn't worked at all for the entire summer, but she was out during the day and our bugs are BAD. She hasn't been able to be rested in the winter as she gets fatter & fatter, but it looks like I will be able to just pamper her now that she's not getting over-fed. That's the one real bonus! Actually, the only reason I work her is to keep her weight acceptable, so if she doesn't need to be lunged anymore, that's fine by me. I have a somewhat serious muscular disorder, so the less hard physical activity I do, the better... I'll walk her like a dog! Oh, the things that love for our horses makes us do!
I also know what you mean, about feeling guilty for working a lame horse. I was working my mare too hard on purpose this week, to make sure that she was lame when the vet came... it's pointless to have him look at her when she's going sound, but I felt like the worst mother in history!
Don't worry, the feet aren't nearly that tiny. That pic is in a VERY deep sand indoor arena (her hind right is completely buried, and the rest are about 70% under). They are a touch small since she's so big, but she's mostly TB and has very hard, very well shaped feet. Thank goodness she doesn't have the "halter horse" feet you're talking about, I agree 100%!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 5:18 pm:
Hi Erin,
The outdoors picture was from the Spring, right? How much weight do you think she has gained in the last 6 months? What has her feeding program been during the weight gain? Did your vet x-ray the foot that blocked lame?
- Elizabeth
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 8:03 pm:
Elizabeth: yes, the pic was from spring. I think that she has gained about 100 lbs since August 15-20th, as she maintained the "skinny" weight all summer.
Her feeding programme has been: 6:30 AM - 4:00 PM outside w/6 other horses, eating approximately 3-4 flakes of grass hay (about 4 lb flakes). I can only guess because she may have had more/less on any given day since it's a shared pasture (snowed in).
4-5 PM: in her stall eating 1/2-1 flake (2-4 lbs) of hay. Her stall is in an unheated riding arena that isn't insulated and also only has 1 other horse, so it's the same temp as it is outside (cold).
This is cut back about 4-6 lbs of hay per day from the summer, as well as increasing the exercise by about about 2.5 hours a week at a hard trot, as I know that she always gains a bit in the winter... I guess it was more than a bit this time!
I've had both fronts x-rayed and both were "clean as a whistle" according to my vet. I think that Julie is absolutely right: she needs time off for a good long time, and I think the "fat pen" will really help me be able to do that.
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 8:05 pm:
Oh, so that everyone knows: she is cut back to about 10-12 lbs of hay per day now, no exercise, and my vet agrees with Dr. O about joint supplements so she is going off of those.
I'll post updates in a couple of weeks! Thanks all for your help.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 9:09 pm:
Hi Erin,
Might be worth getting a weight tape if you don't have one. Pictures are very hard to assess, but the difference between those two seems to me to be significantly more than 100lbs, just based on a visual inspection. Check out Diane's "before, during, after" shots on Hank with the associated weights to see what I mean. I'm glad I'm not a horse-- having to lose 300 lbs to fit into my skinny jeans....
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Friday, Jan 4, 2008 - 9:51 am:
Thanks again Elizabeth. I do have a weight tape, and don't forget that there is also a huge visual difference between a horse's coat in +20 degrees Celsius and one in -30 degrees Celsius (ie, she's REALLY fluffy, but also pretty fat). Even on the weight tape (when I remember to warm it up) she's only gone from 974 (that spring pic) to 1049/1064 depending on the day.
Thanks for the honesty, though I know she's quite fat! I'd love to get her around 950 or so, and get her comfy on those smallish feet. I'll post a pic of my hand buried in her hair later so everyone can see how long & thick it is.
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 4:55 pm:
Quick update: so far, Rockin has lost about 30-40 lbs! She's consistently weight taping at about 1018, and I'm hoping when this latest cold spell is gone, she'll DrOp some more. She really seems to hang on to those pounds when it's in the -20's and 30's (sorry, not sure what the conversion is on those temps - let's just say, freezing cold!)
She's still off with the lameness, but I'm not expecting much improvement for at least a month. Oh well, she doesn't need to work anymore!
She also, surprisingly for me, seems really happy on her own! She can see the studs from one end of the arena, and the herd that she used to be out with on the other. She chooses the stud side most of the day  and really just relaxes. The only thing she seems lonely for at all is food!
I've started her on some human senior multivitamins as per Dr. O's suggestion, although I'm not giving as much at first (since I'm pretty sure the hay that she's getting is good quality), but she was really going crazy for her mineral block, so I figured it would be beneficial.
I'll update again when some more change happens, and when I have some updated photos that actually look different. I'll try to get them up while she's skinny AND hairy!
Thanks again for all the support.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 5:30 pm:
YEA!!!! good news Erin, keep up the good work. Looking forward to skinny pics
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 11:37 am:
I should revise: it got so windy here that I had to throw a blanket on Rockin (she no longer has shelter/buddies during the day, so even though she's never been blanketed, I thought it would be wise).
Well, I'm not sure if it's the extreme cold, the blanket flattening her hair, a few extra days' time to burn calories, or a combination of the three, but she is now officially weight taping at 988. Thirty pounds to go!
I know that this sounds like a lot of weight at once, but she DrOpped like this last winter as well when I put her on a diet. She would stay steady for awhile, then the tape would suddenly be 20-30 lbs lighter... but it's happening quite quickly (obviously) this time, so I'm going to slowly increase hay rations.
I found some better summer skinny pictures, so here is my goal (actually a touch less than this, since she still had a "rain trough" down her back in these at 974 lbs).
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2008 - 10:53 pm:
Updates: Rockin is now officially at 960 lbs on the weight tape, 2'' of hair included! It's been in the -40-50's here with the wind chill, so the horses have been in on occasion, and have been getting a bit more hay to make up for boredom/cold. However, the new (big, handsome & very fit) gelding is going out with her to get adjusted and she is SMITTEN. Let's just say that she has (ahem) found a new way of burning extra calories? Incidentally, he is the son of the stallion that she loves to watch all day... I've raised a mare with a one-track mind.
Anyways, I'm guessing that without the hair, she would probably be at 950 or just slightly below, and I can actually feel ribs! She still has some fat deposits on her tummy, but I don't really want her to lose much more (she was around 970 in the above pictures last summer). I would score her at a 5.5 on the Heinneke scale right now, but I'll have to wait until spring to truly assess without all of the hair; she could actually be around a 5.
I think that instead of increasing her hay, I will treat her to 0.5 lb alfalfa cubes (well soaked) mixed into her beet pulp (which I boil & drain to remove calories from molasses before adding her vitamins) to increase protein in her diet a bit. She only gets 12-16 lbs grass hay (14 lbs on most days), warm water, salt/minerals free choice, 0.5 cups beet pulp (1/8 lb) and a multivitamin/mineral supplement at the moment.
Anyways, no pics of her thin & hairy yet (has been too cold for the camera, believe it or not) but I will get some ASAP.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 5:41 am:
Erin good for you Hank is holding steady around 960 also. I think the winter yak coats add more than 10#'s!, but that is my opinion. I added 1# of 16% alfalfa pellets also, their "yucky" hay and grass hay has has to be lacking.
Is her lameness resolving at all?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 6:41 am:
There are some concerns of using beet pulp and alfalfa together Erin for more on this see, Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Beet Pulp.
DrO
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 2:43 pm:
Dr. O - I am a bit confused. The article on beet pulp says not to feed it with alfalfa if a horse has liver concerns, but Rockin doesn't. Should I just not do it period? If I add in a bit of wheat bran like in the example on the article, does that clear up the concern? I can certainly do that (and she'll really like it too; she loves bran!)
Thanks for the diet supervision. I didn't know about any potential problems with feeding them together. I just mixed them for the first time yesterday, so I won't do it again until I hear back from you on how to fix the problem.
Diane: I agree that the hair is probably more than 10 lbs on the tape; I just overestimate rather than underestimate because I would prefer her a bit thin over a bit fat with her foot issues. I'm glad to hear that Hank is doing so well, too!
No, the lameness isn't resolved yet *grumble grumble*... I'm going to have her trimmed tomorrow and I'm going to try to talk my farrier into trying some of those Ground Control plastic/rubber shoes in the spring. If the problem is (as my vet is almost certain) sore feet from bruising, those should almost certainly help cushion the feet, right?
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 5:17 pm:
Dr. O: sorry, didn't read the article properly the first time! So, if I add a bit of wheat bran, I will increase the phos. level of the mix and make it more balanced to the calcium. Makes good sense to me, and it's cheaper to "cut" it that way too (plus apparently it tastes great to horses).
Thanks again for the tips
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2008 - 5:20 pm:
Erin don't know anything about the Ground control shoes, but the equipak certainly cured Hanks bruising. I'm using Durasole right now too see if it will toughen them up enough to remain barefoot. Haven't been able to use it much, because it is suppose to be applied to dry soles and right now that is next to impossible.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 2, 2008 - 1:35 pm:
DrO. I have a question regarding your beetpulp/ alfalfa comment. I too feed my horses a very small amount of beetpulp just a handful dry and also about 3/4 lb of alfalfa pellets(for protein).
When feeding such small amounts as Erin and I are doing is it really a concern?
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 3, 2008 - 7:21 am:
DianeE, you will find the answer in the article I reference above.
DrO
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 3, 2008 - 9:29 am:
Erin, Is the picture of the horse walking in the corral a picture of Rockin?
Two thoughts come to mind about her lameness; I have seen some short strided horses that 'seem' to be stiff in their movement but it is just that they are really short striding. I can see in the pictures that she takes fairly short steps. (not a critism observation only)
Also, I am no expert but it appears the hoof angle needs some improvement, that would help the stride which in turn would reduce stiffness.
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 3, 2008 - 1:06 pm:
Thanks for the observations, Lori. Yes, she is somewhat short-strided at times, but much more so when she is sore.
As for the hoof angles, I tend to leave that up to my farrier; he's one of the best around here and has been able to help Rockin a lot so far. I certainly don't know enough about it to make too many suggestions to him.
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 21, 2008 - 9:34 am:
Another update: Rockin is holding steady around 960 with a little bit more feed. 16 lbs of grass hay seems to do it.
She's still quite sore in the same front leg, and it doesn't come and go anymore. So, I'm going to have some digital x-rays taken to make certain that I'm not missing something really serious.
Yesterday, I shaped 1" styrofoam board to her front feet, including squaring the toes and channeling a little area for her frogs. I duct taped these to the feet (people here do that for horses that have been trimmed far too short by a bad farrier, so I thought I'd give it a go). They squish down to just about nothing under the horse's weight, they obviously don't stay 1" thick. I moved her out at a trot in the indoor arena, and she strided longer than she has in months, with very little head bobbing! I'll see again tonight, and I'm hoping it isn't coincidence.
Would this kind of cushioning help a more serious problem like navicular, etc.? Or would it only be helpful for sore feet/frogs?
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 21, 2008 - 11:44 am:
Well, if the foam actually is what helped, I think that would indicate she's got something going on within the hoof capsule and I'd consider radiographs. Short strided on going lameness--I'm always suspicious of hoof issues. Maybe Dr. O will enlighten us. What diagnostics have you done to find out where the lameness originates?
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 21, 2008 - 12:46 pm:
She has been nerve blocked twice, and both times lameness was confirmed to be in the front left hoof somewhere, but a more specific block was not done. She was x-rayed (with the old-fashioned machine, not digital) once a little more than a year ago, and x-rays were apparently very normal looking. Hoof testers have always shown discomfort when the frog is squeezed side to side, or on the top, but never anywhere in the sole or anywhere else. She is unfortunately very stoic about it all, so it takes huge discomfort for her to show an obvious pain reaction.
I am going to have another set of radiographs taken with a newer digital machine to see if there is something that just didn't show up or has worsened since then.
Tonight, I am going to try trotting her with the foam on, and then removing it to see what the difference is. I think that I might also get some sort of hints from the wear on the foam (more on one foot, on one side, on the toe/heel, etc). It's at least an interesting experiment if nothing else.
One further question for Dr. O when you get to this: both times that Rockin was nerve blocked, she required 4 injections before it completely blocked out, whereas I've seen other horses block out with just 1 or 2. Does that indicate anything (like more pain, or just horse is less sensitive to medication?)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 21, 2008 - 5:39 pm:
Erin I am the styrofoam queen. Actually if she smooshes it down adding another layer helps.
I would definitley do the x-rays, but would also be real tempted to try some kind of gel pad and shoes if she improved that much with the styrofoam.
I still swear by the equi-pak if applied right. I see now that vet tec makes a soft pad you can use with out a shoe...I might give that a try on Hank this summer.
https://www.vettec.com/65/products/soleguard.html
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 21, 2008 - 5:43 pm:
Here is the faq sheet on it I think it sounds like it could be a great product for people who want to leave there horses barefoot...yet need sole protection and/or support.
https://www.vettec.com/65/products/soleguard.html
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 22, 2008 - 6:47 am:
Erin can you explain exactly where the 4 blocks are done and what were the results of each set of blocks?
DrO
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Friday, Feb 22, 2008 - 11:06 am:
Sorry Dr. O, I forgot that I hadn't mentioned this before. I believe that a PDN was done (the injections were at the back of the pastern very close to the heel). The injections were all to the exact same site, the reason for multiple injections was that the usual amount of lidocaine didn't block the lameness.
I was actually wrong; there were 3 injections and not 4, and I believe that each was 1 ml? We waited about 15-20 minutes between each injection, and she still reacted to the "key test" (cover the eye and test for a reaction when the blocked area is pressed with a key) until 15 minutes after the 3rd injection.
I walked her after each injection and there continued to be lameness present until 15 minutes after the 3rd injection. I guess my question was just this: does it mean that the pain is greater if it took more lidocaine to block, or does it mean that the horse is just less sensitive to the lidocaine?
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Friday, Feb 22, 2008 - 11:19 am:
So, about the styrofoam: I trotted her when I got to the barn last night, and she was still looking pretty good! Then, I took her into the barn to remove the pads, and to my shock, the only bits that were left were the pieces that were wedged around her frogs.
I removed these little bits, thinking that she must be sound on her own and that the styrofoam hadn't done anything... trotted her out again and she was definitely worse without the "frog wedges". So, I'm even more confused. This kind of backs up my farrier's hoof testers though (she showed pain when the frog was moved around or squeezed).
Anyways, I'm going to try to keep some foam blocks in until after her x-rays so that she has some more comfort. I'm guessing that they wear down on the ice, because I looked around her paddock and didn't see a single chunk. I think that they must just wear away slowly. I'll use more duct tape?
I know that you can get frog support pads for horses, but I wonder if the Sole Guard might work well too. I had noticed it also, Diane, and it looks interesting. I just can't believe how much the "accessories" for this stuff costs!
Here is a picture from early February; believe it or not, she's pretty fit under all that hair! She's trotting after me in this one because I was taking away some of her hay and she knew it wasn't coming back once I got out that door...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 22, 2008 - 5:46 pm:
Erin as far as I know you aren't suppose to cut the styrofoam from the frog area...it will shape itself to the commisures. I think it helps support the digital cushion and actually plays an important role. I could be wrong... hopefully Dr.O will comment. When using the styrofoam in slippery or wet conditions I usually put a good amount of duct tape on followed by wrapping with vet rap....seems to give them a little more traction.
Once it smooshes down I add another layer without removing the first one that usually does it for a couple of days. I will say I have a heck of a time removing it tho. This can contribute to thrush if you have a problem with that.
Looks like you got the fat off her congrats!
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Friday, Feb 22, 2008 - 9:18 pm:
I didn't completely cut it out, I just indented it a bit (it seems to make the pads sit closer to the hoof, but I guess that's just before they shape themselves) but I might try it without tomorrow. The vet rap idea is a fantastic one, I think that I'll try that too! I'm not sure if it needs another layer or not but if it actually stays on till tomorrow I might do that as well, depending on how flat it is. I'm just nervous about adding too much height, as she gets really bad when her feet get long (although that's more about toe angle than anything I know). Thanks for the tips; they're great as usual
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 - 8:16 am:
Just wanted to make a check here that the styrofoam you're using is the Industrial grade - not the white stuff. The Industrial is either pink - blue or yellow - Don't think I've seen any other colors.
When my farrier was using the styrofoam blocks on Fox for her founder to get her sound enough for the EDSS shoes - he would take the pad off that had been compressed - cut off the very front across the toe area - place what was left back over the frog area and then put on new blocks. Placing an X of gorilla tape across the bottom of the block before putting it on the hoof allows you to quickly get the pad attached before the foot is yanked away. He allowed her to stand while he made a square of duct tape made from diagonally crossed strips of tape - when he picked up the hoof he centered the square on the pad and just smoothed it up around the hoof. He then wrapped the whole batch is more duct tape. Vet wrap should work well for the last - have never tried it.
CK
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 - 8:25 am:
As you describe them being done, if means the first block missed the nerve.
DrO
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 23, 2008 - 1:00 pm:
Yes, industrial stuff indeed. I think that the white stuff would probably crumble in 2 1/2 seconds, but thanks for checking!
And thanks Dr. O, I'm glad that it doesn't mean more pain!
Between Rockin's x-ray appointment in 2 weeks, and my puppy being spayed next week, I'm a wreck! Apparently 20 is too young for 2 kids... haha!
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 5, 2008 - 1:41 pm:
OK, x-rays are done and nothing obvious was there, but I'm having them sent to a veterinary radiologist to be absolutely 100% sure that there is nothing wrong.
The vet who x-rayed her today said that although it was extremely unlikely, there was a possibility that the lameness is an abscess under the frog. My thought is, if it had been there for nearly 2 years and not come out, she would have a massive infection in the leg and would have swelling, a fever, and who knows what else. Please let me know if this is actually a possibility!
And Rockin has been putting on a bit of weight again, and today I discovered that this is because they thought that she was looking a bit "dull" outside and so decided to give her more hay AND about 2 lbs of pellets a day without mentioning it to me. I just about grew horns... but that's sorted out.
So now it's just a matter of waiting to see what shoes help and if anything happens to show up in the x-rays.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 5, 2008 - 4:50 pm:
Erin did they comment on her sole depth? I kinda doubt an abscess would go on that long with out presenting some way. Can you post pics of her feet including a sole view. Dr.O. and some of the hoof gurus may have some ideas...they helped me alot with Hank. I never realized how crappy his feet were until I posted pics here...even without the founder.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 9:26 am:
Erin, what makes him say an abscess is possible and if a rule out for him why does he not pursue this by careful examination with hoof testers and hoof knife? You understand many causes of foot lameness are not radiographically evident? I bring it up because your post is unclear on this.
DrO
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 10:12 am:
He suggested the (very unlikely) possibility of an abscess when I asked "what else could it be if nothing shows up?" I asked if there was any possibility of there being a soft tissue issue (such as maybe the DDF tendon being injured very close to the navicular bursa or something like that) but he didn't seem to feel so. Again, I don't know why he felt that it could be ruled out. He did emphasise that it was unlikely that it was an abscess, but I didn't even think that it was possible for a hoof to house an abscess for nearly 2 years without showing any signs other than lameness...
My farrier always says that her feet are beautifully conformed with good hard soles and that their only downfall is their small size. I'm not sure what made my vet say that he believes the lameness to be bruising on the sole or the hoof or thin walls, etc. According to my farrier, bruising is visible as pink/red patches.
I'll try to get some pics of the front feet, and I'll also try to post some of the x-ray views when I get them. I'd love any opinions/suggestions I can get, to add to my growing mound of "things to try".
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 7, 2008 - 6:49 am:
For our suggestions see the article Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Navicular Disease / Chronic Heel Pain SynDrOme.
DrO
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 15, 2008 - 10:45 am:
According to 3 vets who looked the x-rays over in the process of sending them to the radiologist, they can't see a thing that's not perfect. I suppose that's great news! I don't have copies yet.
Rockin is looking better (weight and soundness); she's holding her own at about 975 lbs; she had a bit of a relapse when they started giving her wayyyy too much food without telling me (up to 990), but is slowly getting back to my proud 960 lbs. I can feel her ribs easily back for the back 2/3 of the ribcage. The first 1/3 (behind the shoulder) I THINK is covered with muscle and not (much) fat, because it's quite firm. She has a small fat deposit on her tummy underneath her flank, but that's the last one left! She is going decently sound for the most part, and I'll get shoes on as soon as it's not too slippery.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 15, 2008 - 11:21 am:
That is such good news! I'm glad she is becoming sounder. The shoes would be a good experiment anyway to see if they bring her around. Having a hoof fetish I still would like to see pics of her feet.
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Member:
rockin
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 2:19 pm:
Rockin finally lost that last bit of weight, and I think that she looks amazing beyond my wildest expectations (especially after I clipped her a little bit on the tummy)! She weight tapes at around 960, and all of her ribs are felt REALLY easily, although she does still have a very small jiggly spot under her flank on her belly. I would put her at a trim 5 on the Henneke scale.
Here's the trouble: the stable owners are convinced that she's starving and far too thin (she's getting 14-16 lbs of really good grass hay, 1 lb of alfalfa cubes, and a really good vitamin/mineral supplement, plus free choice water and salt/mineral block). So, they have insisted on putting her back with the other horses, but have agreed to only feed grass hay outside now. However, I am concerned that she might end up with the lion's share again (probably will be up closer to 20 lbs of hay each day). I might end up having to move her, if I can't keep her weight down.
I'm still waiting on the x-ray (radiologist) results, but so far 2 vets have said that they look great, except for sidebone (which isn't where the lameness is and doesn't usually cause lameness anyhow). I was hoping to get some results and opinions from here before shoeing her, but I think I'll just have to trust that nothing will show up and shoe her based on that. If I get the x-rays back anytime soon, I will post those and try to get some pics of her feet as well.
In case I don't hear back in the next week, I just wanted to thank everyone for all of your help, advice, and empathy. My subscription will be running out soon, and I just don't think it practical to renew with the upcoming (huge) vet and farrier bills, but I will be reading all of your posts and learning silently along with the rest of you. Hopefully I can join you all again before too long!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 6:22 am:
Sounds good Erin. Hopefully Rockin will be sound with the shoes and you will be able to exercise her more to help with the weight.
Will miss you posting and hope you get back on soon. I would love to hear how Rockin ends up, as you know HA is some of the best money you can spend on your horse
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New Member:
rockin14
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 27, 2008 - 10:13 pm:
Hello to all! I'm back again much sooner than expected (I asked for this for my birthday).
So, Rockin's x-rays were sent to a radiologist and he confirmed "normal" changes in the navicular bones for a horse her age, but slightly more significant ones in the right (sore) foot.
She also has sidebone in both fronts, but apparently that isn't causing any discomfort.
Finally, she has a "small chronic exostosis on the lateral aspect of the proximal phalanx" which, according to the radiologist, shouldn't be causing discomfort but I have read that these can be mild-to-moderately painful... I wouldn't mind another opinion on that.
As for shoeing: eggbar shoes (1/8" thick) with 2 degree wedge pads. Since the shoes were put on, I have been able to ride her with minimal discomfort to her, and her behavior has changed dramatically. She is lively, sweet, and doesn't spook anymore! She is the horse that I knew when she was a mere 6 years old. The weight is staying off, mercifully, with still very little work as I want to move slowly.
I will attach as many images as possible from her x-rays (there are many different views). I don't have any pics of the feet as someone deleted them from my camera before I could download them. I'll try to take pics next time she is trimmed. Please, anyone with knowledge of hooves, give any opinions that you might have (especially Dr. O!)
Thanks all
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 6:46 am:
Hello Erin and welcome back,
I cannot rule out lesions based on these images but I will take your radiologist's word that he does not see significant lesions. The exostosis on the RF would be above the level of a well conducted PDN which I believed blocked the lameness before?
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 7:11 am:
Hi Erin glad you made it back.
Could you tell me why the need for a wedge pad?
I don't know much about hooves, but looking at her laterals it would seem anyway that it would throw her balance off. I'll have to google exostosis never heard of that, is that the reason for them?
Glad you are able to ride again so something must be working.
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New Member:
rockin14
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Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 9:52 pm:
Diane: The wedge pads are because my farrier wanted them... his reasoning is that her angles are a bit off, and he is one of the best around here, so i'll take his word for it. She has also been quite sound since they were put on (almost immediately after) and her balance hasn't been affected as far as I can tell. Tonight I turned her loose in the outdoor arena, and she was flat out galloping (almost flat to the ground). Crazy mare!
Dr. O... good point! Yes, the PDN block does make her sound, so it probably isn't bothering her. I just want to make sure that I shouldn't be doing anything more for her. She is sound about 80% of the time now, even most days after being worked, unless it was an especially hard workout.
Final question for now: is there a chance that riding will cause her navicular bones to degenerate at a faster rate? She loves to work, but I will cut back as much as possible if this is the case. I don't do more than 30 minutes every other day as it is.
Thanks again all!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 6:42 am:
The best place to learn about diseases of the navicular bone and how best to manage them see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Navicular Disease / Chronic Heel Pain SynDrOme.
DrO
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New Member:
rockin14
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Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 10:06 am:
OK, so here's an update:
The shoeing kept her sound enough for light rides every other day, for 3 weeks. She is now consistently lame, although not badly, but she isn't comfortable. I had her reset hoping that it would help and it didn't.
My vet wants to do cortisone injections into the coffin joint, which I know is often successful, but for how long?
I would like to explore the option of a posterior digital neurectomy, but my vet doesn't advocate it. My farrier thinks that she is a perfect candidate. The vet thinks that it will give me 2 years at most, whereas most other advice I've had says more like 10 years. She is 14 now.
I'm desperate for a solution to make this mare happy and comfortable. I want her quality of life to be top notch, and I will go to any length to get it there. Please give any advice or experiences you have!}
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 10:59 am:
Is it possible that someone else is feeling sorry for your mare & giving her food while you're not there? I had that happen with my Stallion at my old barn, he was gaining weight so I asked the staff to cut his feed a bit & that didn't help so asking around I found the culprit - one of the other boarders thought because he was so big (17h) he should get more food & was feeding him 1 to 2 extra flakes a day! After we got that all sorted out he was fine...
She is a chunk isn't she? Cute though!
I've also had a Navicular mare & it broke my heart on a daily basis to see her suffer. I guess it depends on how much you want to spend on her to help her though. When I lived in Alaska back in the late 80s they were pioneering an operation to cut & re-attach the ligament that runs over the Navicular bone (at least that's how I remember them describing it), there was a horse that had had it done & he was still in the healing process but was doing fine at that point with no apparent pain. I wonder if that's the neurectomy you describe above...
Have you talked to anyone at UC Davis about up & coming fixes? They're an excellent source of information. I know cortisone hurts like hell for the first few days (I've had it in my own foot) but is effective for a time, it's benefits do wear off after a while though. I feel for you watching her suffer, the mare I had that had it is dead now & at peace but it was a constant weight on my conscience that I couldn't help her. Good luck Erin.
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New Member:
rockin14
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Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 12:54 pm:
Hi Andrea!
The food problem is (sort of) fixed for the moment. She's a touch over where I would like her now, but only by about 10-15 lbs so not terrible. She has just barely visible ribs and looks like a hunter! I'm amazed at how gorgeous she is when she's skinny (she was cute when she looked like a short draft horse, but she's stunning now).
I'm willing to spend a good amount of money (as much as I have to spend) to make her well. No, the operation you describe isn't a neurectomy. A neurectomy is when the nerves to the foot are cut (very low down) in order to remove sensation entirely from the foot.
I think that this is ultimately the kindest option for this horse. I think that I will look for a vet that does the procedure routinely and ask him/her about the possibility.
Dr. O, could you weigh in on neurectomy in a beloved pet/gently ridden (only to keep weight down) horse? I see her and check her feet daily as it is. This versus cortisone injections, I mean to say.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 1:14 pm:
Hi Erin,
Do nerve blocks suggest that a neurectomy will relieve her pain? There is extensive discussion of neurectomy on this site, and the articles are very good. It does not remove sensation from the whole foot, as you will see in the articles. It also does not replace whatever maintenance is required to slow further degeneration (such as corrective shoeing).
For what it's worth, I think it's a useful option for older horses with persistent heel pain. I have seen nerved horses go on to impressive performance, and comfortable retirement. Like anything else, there's no guarantee for your mare, but it is a good and humane option for many horses.
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New Member:
rockin14
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Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 2:44 pm:
Thanks Elizabeth,
I've read all there is to read on neurectomy here, and quite a bit elsewhere. It seems that there is the school that thinks it doesn't help all navicular horses and doesn't last, and the one who thinks that it is perfect for horses like mine.
I guess what I'm looking for are: good/bad stories people have had with nerving
And also some opinions based on the history I've given of Rockin here. Yes, she is sound with a nerve block. My only real concern are neuromas and the nerves growing back. I'd really like to know how long the operation typically provides soundness.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 3:28 pm:
Hi Erin, congratulations on your stunning horse.
When I worked at a barn years ago there was a gelding there (Dakota) very nice horse, but he was always a little off. The owner finally had a series of x-rays done and some diagnostics. It was determined he had navicular. He had nice hooves, ableit a little small.
At the time they had a very good farrier, the vet wanted to try wedges, but the farrier wanted to try a pad with a wide rim shoe. He used the equithane, same thing I used on Hank for his founder. Dakota never looked back after that application. I saw the owner a few weeks ago, and she said he is still doing well in that package, she has been able to leave him barefoot over the winters too. Just an experience I thought I'd share. Good Luck with Rockin
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 8:00 pm:
Hi Erin,
My horse had neurectomy done when she was 11, and was sound until she passed at 23. The after care is extra important and time consuming but it was worth it to me. She passed from conplicatons of Cushing's SynDrOme.
Good Luck,
Shirl
PS If you want more in depth details feel free to message me personally.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 10:04 am:
Hello Erin,
You will find a discussion on neurectomy in Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Navicular Disease / Chronic Heel Pain SynDrOme be sure to follow the link For a Farrier's View of Neurectomy.
DrO
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