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  Discussion on How do you know when it's time?
Author Message
Member:
winifred

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 9:41 am:

I'm thinking what, for me, is unthinkable, and I'm asking for your help. My 13 year old paint gelding has had acute diarrhea for nearly two years, with only intermittent breaks, only lasting four or five days. I have had three vets look at him, and take blood and fecal samples. I have tried Biosponge, probiotics, many different wormings, changing his feed, removing his feed altogether to try to force him to eat only hay. He continues to have watery, squirty diarrhea. My vet says he does not have ulcers. I can't afford to put him in a horse hospital for further diagnosis.
He was given to me three years ago with acute laminitis, which has vastly improved. He, amazingly, hasn't looked too bad through all this. He's become accustomed to my washing his tail and rear two or three times a day, and I've thought that this is just something the two of us can live with. He's a very sweet horse, and I love him. This morning though I looked at him, and his head was hanging, and his coat looked dull, and I don't know what kind of misery he is in, if he is in misery at all.
Will you please help? How do you know when it's time to put a beloved horse down? I don't know what to do, and to continue to do nothing seems cruel.
Member:
alden

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 10:42 am:

I agree that to do nothing would seem cruel, but it's never easy to make the decision. One possibility maybe to find an university equine program that might want him.

Otherwise I'd say that if the light has gone from his eyes and there isn't anymore treatment options then it may well be time to end his suffering.

I don't envy your position but I have several senior horses now and I'll be in your shoes soon.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
frances

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 11:23 am:

Poor you, it's a terrible decision to have to make. Do you mean that his head hangs and he looks miserable all or most of the time, or was that just a bad moment? Does he still enjoy his food and take an interest in his surroundings? Respond to stimuli? As Alden asks, has the light gone from his eyes?

Wishing you the best at this difficult time.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 11:38 am:

Winifred, 3 years ago my friend and I went thru that exact same ting with a a wonderful rescued old gelding. We did the tail/ butt wash for 2 years and then he slipped further towards the end.Alden is right as is LL it's all in their faces/ eyes. the same holds true with all the animals in our lives ! It is beyond hard when one finds the decision time has come .... prayers to you both! Cindy
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 11:42 am:

Yes, poor Winifred, none of us envy the position you're in. Like Alden, I've got a rapidly aging population here and it's only a matter of time before your decision is upon me, too.

I think the others are right, when the gleam is gone from the eye. But I also think that the horse isn't the only one suffering here. I can read the anguish in your post that you feel every time you wash the tail, every time you try another solution to no avail. To watch your friend decline to the point of misery would be misery also to the caretaker.

Sounds like you have done everything reasonable for your horse. Must he reach the point of total lack of quality of life before you let him go? I don't know, but it sounds like things won't get better for him.

You will find plenty of support here at HA for whatever decision you make, I'm sure. Your horse isn't in this alone, and your feelings about keeping him going are just as important.
Best of luck, and hopefully a quick healing to your heart knowing that whatever you decide will be correct.
Erika
Member:
chanda

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 11:50 am:

Winifred,

My heart is with you, for those of us who have had to make the decision and even for those who know someday they may face it, it is a most heart wrenching decision. Having had a wonderful mare that had several medical issues from the moment I owned her, my heart told me when, as well as she did. Her pain was such that I knew she wanted to to be freed and as much as I did not want to let go, I knew I had too. Only you know your beloved friend the best and he will tell you. There sadly comes a time when all of our caring and trying new treatments must end and we must do what is right for our friend.

You are in my thoughts, Debbie
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 12:06 pm:

Winefred ....
Look in the eyes and you will know if it is time.
As hard a decision as it is, think of how hard it would be to live with no glitter of life in your eyes. You will make the right decision.
DT
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 12:21 pm:

Winifred,

The only thing I would add to the great advice here is to make sure that you rule out temporary sources of misery, which can be confusing in a chronically ill horse. Give yourself the time to rule out a gas colic, for example. If his chronic condition has worsened, then you may be on that awful descent. But chronically ill horses also get minor additional problems that they may recover from. SO take the time to be sure which it is, before you make the very difficult decision you face.

It is a very painful time for you. We support you here on HA!
Member:
erinport

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 1:54 pm:

Hi Winifred. I'll just pass on a story from my trainer, who is not a member of HA. She is a gaited horse trainer, who had a very good old friend from the Fox Trotter world, who bred, raised and trained MFTs. He was getting on in years, and dying slowly of cancer himself. Along with him was his aging gelding who was also not doing too well. He asked my friend to take his gelding, because he couldn't stand to watch him go downhill anymore, in the midst of his own agony. As hard as she knew it would be (she had trained this gelding years before and absolutely loved him). The two old guys seemed to go parallel to one another. The gelding lasted, with chronic diarrhea, just like yours, for almost a year. Finally, she knew it was time. He stopped eating or even grazing, didn't want to come out of his stall, and no longer perked his ears up at the sound of his name. She knew, and did what she had to do. His owner, old Pete, passed on less than six months later. I asked her how she knew it was time for the horse, and she replied, "he told me so." I can't understand that, as I haven't been around horses nearly as long as she has, nor have I ever lost one in this way. But she knew, as will you. Good luck, and just know, when this is all said and done, he will be waiting for you on the other side, healthy and whole again...
Member:
kbr1

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 2:53 pm:

Winifred,
I am so sorry, on the 21st of this month it will have been two years since I had to put my beloved Shasta down. She was 38 and I had had her for 27 years. She had arthritis, she did better when she was on bute twice a day but she hated taking it and would run from me. When I spoke with my vet, he told me I was out of options and that animals aren't like (most) people, they will suffer a decent amount before you know it. So I made the decision to have her put down. Of course they day he came it was 70 degrees out and sunny, Shasta was so much better, but when I said something to the vet about it he said 'You know it won't last' and I knew he was right, she was shaggy and had lost a lot of weight. I know I have rambled on but when you start thinking about it, it may be the best thing to do. I still feel guilty about it, when I know rationally it was the right thing, emotionally I feel I let her down.
It appears you have already done so much for your horse. I wish you all the best in what ever decision you make.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 3:00 pm:

I think you are all so kind.
He does still have light in his eyes, and always nickers when he sees me, so I think I'll put this issue to bed for right now. It's not time.
It feels quite selfish but, as Erika pointed out, there does come a time where it's a misery for the caregiver as well; that's where I am right now. Every morning I hope so much to see something other in his stall than what I see there. So I've been leaving him out in the pasture for the past week or so, just giving myself a break, and hoping that nature will take its course. Maybe he'll find his own cure? Again, I don't know what I'm doing, just tring everything.
At any rate, I cannot thank you enough for your supportive words. I'll keep him going as long as there's light in his eyes, and hope that I'll know.
He's not old, is the thing. He's only thirteen.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 5:13 pm:

One last thought have you tried feeding him a pumpkin!! No seeds just the meat ??? Cindy
Member:
winifred

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 7:08 pm:

Pumpkin? Will a can of pumpkin work?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 8:19 pm:

A gelding of mine required such care for over ten years. I did lots of things to try to address the problem and make it better. Ultimately, I felt that the year-long Moxidectin worming program suggested on this site helped, as did an excellent farrier who removed constant pain from the horse's life. I am amazed to now have a boy with a clean butt (for a couple of years, he has rarely required a butt wash) and floating trot, after he struggled to get around for so many years. I did also change his feed from conventional "sweet feed" to Triple Crown LITE pellets. These things can resolve if the horse maintains a decent physical condition while having this problem.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 8:52 pm:

Pumpkin, just a whole one scape out seeds and give, altho I have used canned( with no seasoning) for dogs!? My husbands grandfather was a horse trainer lONG AGO and that was his remedy! Used it this fall on our mustang when he had a slight bout and it did go away? He ate the first one all gone but then I tried a second one just in case and it was ho hum? Don't think it can hurt some of the old remeddies are now new! Cindy
Member:
dove2

Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2008 - 9:40 pm:

I just ran across this article about pumpkins in an on-line Kentucky Performance Products journal: "The Scoop on Pumpkins

Pumpkins were once regarded as an acceptable feedstuff for horses. In an 83-year-old report published by the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, pumpkins were considered a "succulent feed" and were lumped with other garden produce such as potatoes and carrots. The primary reason for feeding pumpkins, according to the report, was to improve digestion, as the seeds of the fruit were thought to produce a laxative effect.
Guidelines were given for the feeding of pumpkins: offer no more than eight pounds daily; do not combine with any other laxative feed (roots such as carrots, for instance); reduce the forage offered when fed; and provide high-quality feeds to compensate for the poor nutritive value of the fruit."
Member:
zarr

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 1:05 am:

That is interesting as that is the opposite of what I was told because it was suppose to provide roughage/fiber wonder if lack of seeds makes a difference! Never thought of it as food stuff just additional fiber source! Must go learn more. Even my vet said it was alright for the dog, Hmmmm Cindy
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 6:37 am:

Hmmm...we have pumpkins yet in the shed I think, we, or rather my husband, grows them for deer bait and the deer just love 'em.

Natural remedies always say pumpkins seeds are good for parasites for humans, so it may be worth trying this for this horse. I am still thinking it is a parasite problem although he has been treated for those.

If it were me, I'd try the pumpkins without seeds first, then maybe add some seeds later on and see what happens.

Too bad you didn't know about this in October!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 6:47 am:

Hello Winifried,
The diarrhea itself is not painful, other than any scalding to the skin. Is he just not feeling well for a few days or is the depression a longer term attitude? This time of year many horses lack luster as the winter coat ages and gets ready to come out but what is his overall body condition?

If the diarrhea alone is too challenging for you, euthanasia is certainly a humane option but we do have some suggestions for undiagnosed chronic diarrhea at Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview.
DrO
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 7:28 am:

Does anyone remember reading in one of the horse magazines that horses love bananas or banana flavored feed? I thought is was in Equus maybe last year.

I wonder if a search on feed stuffs used for horses over the centuries would turn up something that may just be the ticket to help this poor horses system self regulate itself.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 7:34 am:

One more thing than I'll quit thinking about this and hogging the thread. Benonite clay, and there are 2 other clays, are used for intestional troubles. If you google it, and read up on these, the story will tell you that folks noticed sick cattle would wonder off, and go to these clay licks, eat there for a few days and recover. I don't know if there are products for animals, but Yerba Prima puts out supplements for humans. The theory behind these clays is that the bad stuff binds to it and thus leaves your body.
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 10:21 am:

Cindy I goggled Pumpkins and it can be used for either constipation or diarrhea, it is a high roughage vegetable..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 10:51 am:

Hi, and thanks again for all your suggestions and support. I just offered Buck a nice can of pumpkin, and he looked at me like I was crazy. Wouldn't touch it.
One thing that might be important is that, as I was washing him this morning, I noticed that his poop has tons of undigested grass or hay particles. So I was thinking, after reading Dr. O's article and one of your suggestions, perhaps it would be a good idea to take him OFF hay, and just on pelleted feed for a while. What do any of you think about that? It's what he adores, and maybe instead of forcing hay on him, I should give him what he seems to crave. I usualy give him Legends Maturity, but my husband bought some Senior Crown Senior Feed yesterday, which has much more molasses in it. Of course he thinks it is divine, but I worry about that much mollasses with his laminitis.
Problems, problems.
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 11:18 am:

Winfred, i have never dealt with what you are dealing with ,, i feel your pain in the cold winter months washing and cleaning.. :-(

My thoughts are YES , try the complete feeds, something HIGH in fiber low is sugar add a vitimin and shredded beat pulp.. Give it a try for a week or more and see.... At this point what do you have to loose.. ?
Dr. O can a horse live on a complete feed alone????

On the first day God created horses , on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
canter

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 12:56 pm:

Angie, an unscientific response to your question r.e bananas: My horse LOVES them. She would follow me straight to Haides and back if I have a banana in my hand. However, one of the horses at the barn has very rudely spit a bite of banana right back at me after trying a bite. I'm sure my mare likes the sweetness of them (when they start to get overripe at home and nobody will eat them anymore is when I bring them out to the barn so they don't get wasted) but I have no idea if there is any nutritional benefit to her other than as a reward.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 2:26 pm:

Canned pumpkin didn't work here either, hence the whole thing version! Bananas were a resounding NO also, I tried all those treats P&J sandwich won hands down! OH also dry cat food, tuna flavor! :-) Cindy
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 2:45 pm:

I don't know why but an old Dutch farmer always gave animals with diarroea [his foals especially and horses to]yoghurt. Anyone else heard this?
I tried it once on a foal and had a bit of work to get him to eat it but it did help[but and I know what Dr O will say we gave a dewormer to]
Jos
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2008 - 4:49 pm:

The yogurt has a probiotic effect that can help humans or animals who have had the "good bacteria"
killed along with the "bad," especially post antibiotics. I used various probiotics with my horse over the years but cannot say they did much good, if any, to resolve his problem.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 3:44 am:

Thanks Vicki, thus it would have been more logical to give it AFTER dewormer or antibiotics I suppose.
Oh well when I was struggling with the foal followed by a very interested mom[interested in theYOGHURT]I really felt useful perhaps that counts
Jos
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 6:16 am:

Jos -- Yogurt would be the most economical way to give a horse probiotics. Some equine probiotic's directions say to give the same day as worming and also on days 3 and 7 post worming. You need to find a yogurt with plenty of active cultures and there are two that are much higher than most that are sold in our grocery stores -- Stoneyfield brand is one, but I cannot remember the other one.
Member:
frances

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 6:58 am:

On the banana front, research by a equine supplement manufacturer wanting to find out what flavour most appeals to horses found that bananas won hands down. This is my experience also - all the horses at our barn would betray their grandmothers for a nice ripe banana.

Also, I've read that at the Sydney Olympics absolutely tons of bananas were flown in by the equestrian teams (for their mounts not the riders!).

Of course, bananas are really sweet, so probably not that good for laminitic or metabolically- challenged horses....
Member:
karent

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 11:21 am:

I had a haflinger who had chronic diarrhea from
the time she was 6 months old, and I'm talking water consistency to cow manure consistency. She was this way for 2 years. I know every case is different, but what worked for me is a combination of Metrodidazole (not sure I spelled this correctly) along with free feeding of psyllium (mixed with non alfalfa pellets with no molasses). It took around 1 month and a maintenance of psyllium (1-2 cups per month for 1 year)and she has been diarrhea free for the past 3 years.

I now there are many different causes of this problem and not every remedy works for every horse. However, my Vet advised me that I would have to put her down eventually (as he had been called several times when her diarrhea was at it's worst and she was so weak she couldn't get up).

Another Vet told me to try the Metrodidazole and psyllium and it worked for my horse, who is now a lesson horse for children and a sweetheart with no medical problems whatsoever.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 12:51 pm:

Thank you, Karen. What IS Metrodidazole? Can I buy it at a feed store? My current vet prescribed Metamucil, which is psyllium, but can I buy horse-grade psyllium at a feed store?
This is the first I've heard of Metrodidazole, and hope it's not a prescription thing.
I'll definitely try it, and hope I have the good luck that you did.
I have a Haflinger here now, too, that I'm thinking of buying. What a lovely horse he is.
Member:
winifred

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 12:54 pm:

Me again, sorry. My vet told me to give Buck one cup of Metamucil every day, and you said that you just gave one to two cups a MONTH for a year? Could I have over-given the Metamucil? It's frightening to think that all my attempts to fix him could be making him worse.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 2:29 pm:

Winifred, I'm just catching up on some of these threads and read about Buck. Did I skim over it, or did you say what he is eating for hay? I have one mare that just can't eat most alfalfa hays regardless of what else she is eating. She gets very bad diarrhea from it. Also, I have been using Equine Senior for several years for some of my older mares. Their systems just don't seem to be able to digest a lot of the other feeds or alfalfa hay, and they ones that don't get diarrhea, do still have a lot of undigested food matter in their manure and they loose weight. They get some grass hay and graze the fields in the summer, but their main source of food is the senior pellets. The Purina Senior has pro-biotics already in them, but I also feed a supplement with pro-biotics, needed amino acids, vitamins, etc. in it. I mix the senior with soaked beet pulp and a little bran. It might be worth a try if you haven't tried this.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 4:20 pm:

Winifred -- I often gave a cup or more a day to my boy -- once for an entire summer. As for humans, psyllium seems to work as a digestive aid. In a horse with the runny butt synDrOme, it seems to help soak up the extra liquid that is in the manure, making the situation better. When my horse was the worst was out on the summer grass, but any little thing could seem to cause it to start up for months at a time. The psyllium use didn't seem to "cure" the problem but helped with the symptoms and mess.
Member:
karent

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 5:42 pm:

Winifred,

I bought horse grade psyllium and did free feed for 1 month along with the metrodidazole (2-3 tablets per day, Metrodidazole is a prescription drug). After free feeding for one full month, all she needed was another 2 cups per month for maintenance, which I did for one year.

Metronidazole has been used clinically for the treatment of anaerobic infections and possible protozoan diarrheas. This includes clostridial colitis and chronic diarrhea. This is a portion of the info listed on this website, you should read the entire article DrO has on metronidazole.

Again, I want to stress what worked for my horse may not work for yours. But it never hurts to ask your Vet and get his/her input.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 5:54 pm:

Very interesting, Karen! Thank you for this valuable information.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 7:28 pm:

Sand Clear is a product available here that people feed hoping to head off sand colic. It's about 99 percent psyllium. There are other products for sand removal (don't know if they work), but most are almost pure psyllium and say feed one to two cups per day, usually once a month for seven days. I do use it when my paint gelding gets diarrhea and in a couple of days it clears up. Don't know the "why". but it always works. His diarrhea is not chronic, just occasional. I would think it would be cheaper than metamucil.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 8:03 pm:

Some equine catalogs carry SU-PER PSYLLIUM, which is 100% psyllium.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 - 8:43 am:

Winifred have you tried something like Yea-Sac I have heard good things about it and you can order it from any online equine store....our farm store even carries it. When my mare had terrible diareha I used fast track which helped. Yea-Sac is suppose to be much better.
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=48d12a04-318d-40c8-828d-1c237cd6b 255
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 - 10:36 am:

Some of the treatments above have no rational for their use while others do. The ones that do or have had some history of working are discussed in the article I reference above, Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview.
DrO
Member:
sparky

Posted on Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 - 2:28 pm:

Winifred - here is a link to something a little out of the box. I searched out EFT when trying to find a solution to my son's fear of the dentist. I learned it - and used it with him and he can now go with no problems. We used to have to put him out! When I read your thread I remembered an article about this in the news letter that I receive from them. It is different and kind of awkward to get used to but I have used it on many things from can't swallow pills to coughing. Anyway check it out and as they say you never know.
I think sometimes in our lives when we have to make the decision to put our animals down and have it done we reflect and do realize that we probably hung on longer than we should have. There is no right time answer - everyones situation is different and you will make the right call when the time comes. From your care and concern that comes across in your thread you sound like you are doing a great job.
Good luck
Janet
https://www.emofree.com/Animal/horse-digestion-borrow-benefits.htm
Member:
winifred

Posted on Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 - 4:57 pm:

Touch wood, he seems a little better today. At least I only needed to wash him once. It seems that the pelleted senior feed, which he loves, may be helping....so funny that two weeks ago I thought it was the culprit, and had cut it all out, and things got so much worse.
I'm thinking now that his colon may, as I heard somewher along this search, need to rest, and so less hay may be better. He doesn't seem to want hay at all.
I'll start him on psyllium tomorrow, with his senior feed. He doesn't seem so bad today. I'm surely not putting him down just yet.
Thanks so much, all of you.
Member:
freshman

Posted on Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 - 6:30 pm:

Has the horse been been evaluated for salmonella, ecoli, etc? Or possible inflammatory bowel disease? Any other malabsorbtive disorders? Metro is a great abx for some gut problems. Salmonella and other infectious disease need other, intensive abx treatment and possibly more supportive tx depending on how "sick" or systemically compromised the horse is at the time. All these things can cause chronic diarrhea.
Member:
frances

Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 3:43 am:

Winifred - so glad to hear he's a little better today. I think you're wise to give it more time; it's amazing how horses can turn around.

All the best.
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