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  Discussion on To fat and COPD and chronic laminitis...
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Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 8:12 am:

Hi All Inspired by Hank's wwdiet Grasse [obese half arab founders easily 12 years old] was restricted to a shelter plus small paddock from 6 in the afternoon till 10 in the morning. Just stemmy hay [two flakes at night an one in the morning] and she did very well, lost weight walked much better and was more energetic.
Now ofcourse her COPD plus the hay starts to let her cough again. She already is outdoors hay as dust free or even soaked in water from the ground so I do not see I can improve that part.
Question: how do I get her through the night?
A bit of alfalfa cubes if so how much and how often beetpulp is available to if necessary. She is on a 'diet grass' paddock during the day but I am afraid that the time without food is to long without the stemmy hay. She has already been put on limited water 25 litres[50lbs?] during the night because if she is bored she starts drinking ridiculous amounts of water.
Please tell me owners of fattys how long can they be left without anything?
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 5:26 pm:

Hi Jos. My fattys get fed at 5pm or dusk whichever comes first. They get 2 flakes each at night and it is gone by 7pm the rest of the night they have nothing...unless they paw for morsels in the snow.
I wouldn't limit water I don't think.

Mine have showed no problems with this, except to loose weight, which is the purpose. Last winter I fed more and it was still gone with-in 3 hrs. all that came of that was fat horses with an hour more chew time.

Could you soak a haynet with her 2 leafs in it? That would slow her down and also help keep the COPD under control. We had a pony where I use to work that had terrible COPD and was fat...the haynet helped both. We had 2 haynets 1 was always soaking for the next feeding. That helped remove the sugars and got rid of all the dust and dirt in the hay...amazing how much "dirt" is in hay. Plus he munched all day and night long.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 15, 2008 - 3:52 am:

Thanks Diane, I think I will try soaking the hay She lives the same way as yours at the moment and does VERY well, but after reading the article on COPD I thought I needed to cut out the hay entirely[she gets better but still coughs a little bit if the hay is really well soaked.
But I don't see how a horse like she can live on beetpulp or alfalfa cubes she would finish her ration for 10 hours in 1 minutes...
I limit her water to 25 liters a night which is a normal ration for a horse her size for 24 hours in this time of year if not she gets bored and lets about 5 times this ration disappear.
Thanks
Jos
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 15, 2008 - 10:24 am:

Over here in the states jos there are commercial grass hay cubes (usually timothy) which are dust free and low in TDN. In many cases of COPD wetting hay does not help, perhaps the vigorous soak Diane describes, plus very clean hay to begin with, and a mild case, it might make a difference? For more information on dealing with this see the article on COPD.
DrO
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 15, 2008 - 12:45 pm:

Soaking the hay seems to help a bit but not enough I am afraid, tried it last year and the article is right and quite clear on this.
Thing is the poor animal would stay in perfect conditon with only eight hours wintergrass out of 24. Leaves 16 hours of nothing to eat for her, and I am frightened thats to much.
I don't know what to do because as the weather is horrible more work is not really an option.
Jos
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 7:56 am:

jos I have left your last post in my email box the last few days and every time I crossed it I tried to come up with some ideas not already touched upon in the article on COPD and just don't have any. Have you come up with some alternative we have not thought about?
DrO
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 9:48 am:

I've been wondering about this too.

When my Rosie had this problem, I used to take her crappy night-time grass hay and scatter it around her dry lot pen at night. Wandering around to collect the bits slowed her down quite a bit, since she couldn't just wolf it all down in big bites. I also fondly imagined that activity as exercise.

A boarder of mine bought one of those rolling grazing tubes that would release small amounts of pellets when rolled, but it made very loud noises and didn't seem to help very much.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 10:35 am:

Thanks for asking Dr O and if you need to think I do not feel ashamed I can't find a real solution.
For the moment,I've been soaking hay it helps a little bit but mot enough I think. She doesn't have really bad bouts of coughing but DOES cough five or six times in the morning if she gets excited about food.
I think the only option for this moment is [because the hay and straw is of a horrible quality if not she can have a little bit good straw without to much problems] putting her in an acre of wintergrass with a shelter and leave her there during day and night, if I lunge her regularly according to the description in the article about weightlosing she will be allright.
During summer I see no other option then dividing her grazing time in two or three portions.
I really am afraid if I let her cough just a little bit I will only end up with a horse who gets sick once again.
I know, best solution for her is work work work
and luckily her arthritis isn't so bad she will stand the work if done well, alas at the moment I don't any volunteers?
Jos
PS Sad thing is she is only 13 years old, and already a load of problems acquired because people DIDN'T consult Horseadvice before taking on a horse
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 10:39 am:

Elizabeth you won't believe it put we had some kind of ball with holes that gave a pellet at a time, She put it in her shelter[she is shod] and stamped on it until it broke and released everything, Her loving owner who had bought the thing was stunned and I laughed until i nearly wet my pants.
Jos
It was exercise don't you think?
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 10:42 am:

Sorry I forgot, in Holland I bought fodderbeets for the COPD horses a whole beet to chew on takes time. They don't seem to exist any more and I suppose carrots and sugarbeets in large amounts are out of the question because of founder...
Jos
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 2:18 pm:

Hmm Jos, maybe you need to put 100 pellets in 100 feeders and let her stomp each one. THAT should keep her busy! Sounds like a clever horse who knew exactly how to fix the slow leak problem with her strangely-shaped feed trough! What a great product review.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 2:55 am:

I hesitate to try the grazing muzzle but when in Scottsdale in february I will buy the best for her!
Let's see if that product does better.
BTW she does the same with buckets with vitamin mineral products containing molasses, she is an experienced diet horse...
Jos
Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, Feb 4, 2008 - 6:04 am:

Happy to announce Grace DOES have ribs and I can feel them! As faithfull follower of Hank's weight watchers diet she is now in a 'Hank'condition.
Something is puzzling me though: putting her out in wintergrass ofcourse messed up her diet so back to limited grazing and hay limited as far as I felt prudent. Then someone offered me different hay[from a different soil and thus different plants?] not even good quality but very long and stemmy and I gave it a try. Then she stopped coughing! Is it possible she is allergic to plants and not the hay moulds?
I didn't change anything else and am really astounded, I don't even soak this hay and for the last 14 days she has been fine.
A confused but happy Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 4, 2008 - 6:36 am:

Ribs Jos. Do you think it possible the extra weight was contributing to her cough? Strange, but true I have seen it. It could also be the different hay, they do like to keep us guessing. Keep doing whatever is working!

Since we are learning how to keep our horses "trim" together I have a couple questions. I know you were worried about her not having feed for extended periods, so what did you do? Mine still go without hay when it isn't terribly cold out. Now I hope I'm not jinxing myself, but this is the 1st winter I haven't seen the vet weekly in quite some time. Can't even remember the last time he was here. I'm pretty sure it is because of the "diet" Keep us updated.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, Feb 4, 2008 - 8:23 am:

I almost completely cut of concentrates,just a handful morning and evening when the others get their food, and then two flakes of hay [appr. 2,5 kg] in the evening and in the morning half a flake before turning her out on winter grass.
It was no hay at all[advised for COPD horses] what worried me from 19.00 till 8.30 next morning nothing didn't seem a good idea.
So now I keep my fingers crossed she doesn't start coughing again.
If only she stays well until spring I will put her on grass for a longer period of time and WORK her but in the weather we have at the moment I love to read a book next to the fire instead of lungeing lungeing and riding
Jos
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 5, 2008 - 6:54 am:

Concerning the allergy problem Jos, IF she has stopped because of the change, it is much more likely that the new hay has fewer mold spores but I cannot rule out your suggestion.
DrO
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 5, 2008 - 8:16 am:

Thanks Dr. O, I'd better take care she enters the next winter in a condition suitable for a COPD diet. Whichever of the two it is I am sure sooner or later the allergy will give problems again.
Jos
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 1:11 pm:

Thought I would update on Grasse. Inspired by Hanks efforts she proved to HAVE ribs though after the last two weeks with the grass growing she alas gained weight again.
I've put her alone[but in the middle of the other bunch] in a small piece of pasture and feed her by giving her about a foot of new pasture each day. She has a shelter and recieves at feeding times a handful of alfalfa pellets has acces to water and a mineral vitE Selenium salt lick.[That's all no hay she started coughing again]
Until now she does well it is hard though with the growing grass to decide how much new grass so I don't risk sandeating but on the other hand don't overfeed her so she founders.
She doesn't cough anymore and is in good working condition and all would be perfect if her owner indeed worked her regularly as I don't have the time anymore. But so far so good
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 2:27 pm:

Jos the grass is starting to come in here also and The weight tape is coming out! I think Hank is gaining also! If Grace is grazing the grass very low that could well be the source of the cough. I don't really have any suggestions for that, one of those things where you can't win.. founder or cough? not a good choice. Could you put her out in the bigger field with a muzzle? That way she wouldn't over eat, nor graze too close.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Apr 6, 2008 - 3:45 am:

If she is in a big pasture with a grazing muzzle do you have any idea how long she could graze?
They are almost never used over here and I don't have any experience with them.
I think though it is worth a try and will command one.
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 6, 2008 - 6:58 am:

Hi Jos, if she tolerates the muzzle I believe most people leave their horses out all day with them on.

If she is the tempramental type like Hank he can only stand it for a couple hours, if you decide to get one maybe posting a question here would help. There are different brands and sizes. I got the Deluxe grazing muzzle at Valley Vet online. If Grace has the normal arab muzzle a cob size would probably fit.
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=6ce3f035-7cb3-11d5-a192-00b0d0204 ae5
Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, Apr 7, 2008 - 1:27 pm:

Thanks Diane I found the grazing muzzles and the shipping is exspensive[to France] Think I am going to ask Sara to bring one or two in june.
As she is half arab maybe she will just as Hank don't stand it for longer times but it is worth a try. If only she played as much as Bartock she would be in less trouble .
Thanks again
Jos
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 5:28 am:

Hi All, Here comes Grasse again: She did fairly well on only limited grass and lungeing to keep her fit, but I haven't had to much time lately due to other horsey problems so she got bored started drinking about a 100 litres a day again and gnawing at the hedge trees. Wheather it was the hedge or she ate some woodshavings I don't know but last weekend she wasn't fit and the output of manure stopped.
Paraffine oil did the trick and she is fine though fat again.
I mowe a part of the pasture have her in a dry lot and move the electric fence each day for about 10 square metres. The other choice would be dry lot and stemmy hay[not a very good quality] and start her COPD again. On the other hand the growing season is horrible half of the Normandy horses are foundering
I feel like the donkey in between two shelves of very bad hay any advises?
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 7:08 am:

Jos our grass is staying very lush this year too. It's been cool and very rainy. It appears Hank is gaining also. The other 2 aren't for some reason.

With all the rain it has been impossible to exercise him. I cut his hay way back to 5lbs. a day, took away the good field grazing. All they have is the small pasture in back, which won't dry up, so it remains very green and looks very lush.

I'm at a loss what to do also. Just wish it would dry up some...we had 6 in. of rain in the last 24 hrs. and it is still pouring! Could then get the arena done and start the exercise, I guess until then I will just keep a good eye on him or start the "drylot" if nescesary...even that is growing grass!

If you come up with something let me know
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 3:41 am:

Diane how's this: we start a barn for founder prone horses[enough horses SHOULD diminish the grass problem and with the money that comes in we buy a horsewalker that PUSHES the fatties to slimness!
Serious I am out of ideas and this is going wrong with Grasse sooner or later..
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 7:20 am:

Jos that sounds like a good idea! as long as the walker is indoors. I'm starting to believe we live in the devils triangle of weather. and am not appreciating the "test".

I don't know what to tell you other then a grazing muzzle, that is going to be my next step, if after weighing today Hank has gained. He still isn't what I call fat, getting skinny this winter was his saving grace I'm sure. He's gone from a 5 to a 6 body score and I hope I can hold that until the arena is done.

Do you have a grazing muzzle? I would gladly reciprocate the kindness Cindy O had by shipping me fuzzies for Hanks and ship you a muzzle. I actually have a spare that would probably fit Grasse. Hank doesn't have an arab head so don't need it. If you are interested let me know and I will send you my e-mail so I can get your address.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Jun 1, 2008 - 3:48 am:

Ofcourse! I forgot about the grazing muzzle, thanks for reminding me. They are practically unknown in France, so I intended to ask Sara to bring some when she comes.Grasse doesn't have a big head but not really arab either [size small horse in European standards?] Do you think it would fit?
Thanks again
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jun 1, 2008 - 7:58 am:

Jos sounds like the horse size would be right for her. The arab/cob size fits a small arb/large pony well. Hank has a long, wide head.(filled with brains). and the horse size was a little small on him. The Deluxe grazing muzzle seems the best as far as durability and horses not being able getting them off. Let us know how it works if you get one. A lot of people have had good luck making the hole a little bigger...helps keep the horse from getting frustrated. It was the only way Hank would accept it!
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=6ce3f035-7cb3-11d5-a192-00b0d0204 ae5
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Jun 1, 2008 - 1:01 pm:

Well now Grasse really made life difficult: she doesn't stay behind temporary electric fencing anymore so the system of giving her a small lot with grass and make it bigger each day is impossible. At first I thought I forgot to put on the electricity but me and my dogs soon found that was NOT the problem.
Now Grasse is locked up in a round pen size lot with a big walk in stable, flooring sand and woodshavings wonder when she starts to colick again...
I suppose I will have to give her some hay and take the coughing as the lesser of two evils.
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jun 1, 2008 - 9:52 pm:

Gees Jos, you are being tested aren't you! Thankfully Hanks founder was a false alarm and they are back in their "small" pasture.

You sure have a difficult situation since you have the copd working against you also. Could you put your other horses in a pasture to eat it down then let Grasse in there? Mine aren't gaining weight in the small pasture(according to the tape) and keep it pretty short. Or is there a horse you could put with her to help keep it mowed, and her less bored?

Tough situation
Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 4:00 am:

I tried to get two other founderprone mares over herebut they already foundered and I don't like to take them on as I don't want to loose friends if something get's worse over here.
But that's just the thing Diane she was kept in a mowed down pasture behind [good] electric fencing because my paddocks are about 5 acres [fenced with wood and electricity] and that worked for a while. Then her owner took her to his home[1/4 of a mile from here] to 'mow' and tried to fool her with electric fencing without electricity. Word of advise to anyone who reads this NEVER use an electric fence without electricity.
She escaped and got 'home' a few times and now doesn't stay behind a simple temporary fencing anymore..
So the grazing muzzle will be tried and I found another product which might perhaps 'substitute ' some hay but I will start a new thread on that.
Jos
PS I almost went buying a few cows [my sheep project was a failure: fences!!]
Member:
wgillmor

Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 8:29 am:

jos,

I noticed a few posts above where you said grazing muzzles are almost unknown in France. Valley Vet, https://www.valleyvet.com/si_foreign.html, will ship international, and does sell grazing muzzles. I suspect there are others. (Of course it may be easier to have Sara bring it.)

Regards,
Wiley
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 10:40 am:

Jos, a friend of mine had a gelding who was unfazed by her electric fence. She bought a higher voltage fence charger and that kept him in. Of course the downside was that if she accidently touched the fence she would really get a zing!
Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 12:51 pm:

Wiley Thanks I did look them up before but the costs to send them to France were very high[ on top of that I seem to have to pay taxes!of 17%]
Jo Ann My electric fences has at the moment 8.3 kbh[?] while 2,5 is deemed enough for horses. Kenzo and me found out the hard way yesterday I DID put the electricity on.That's why she stays behind the permanent fences she just found she can throw over the temporary poles.
If the hay net doesn't work I suppose I will be digging to put in wooden poles[again no problem in the Dutch sand but here: clay and rocks]
I am starting to fondly remember one of the first homes with my parents: just enough room for us and the Dachshund.
Jos
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