This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Water, Water Quality, and Watering Horses »
  Discussion on Talk therapy not an option
Author Message
New Member:
carlaa

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 12:17 pm:

Dr. Oglesby, may I pick brains again? I have read the article Drinking Water for Horses and still have concerns. Friar Truck is a coming 4 yr old, Bel/TB X, 16.3h. I purchased him in 9/07 from a hack stable where horses were watered several times a day by being led out of their straight stalls ( no turn out), tied in the aisle and allowed to drink from a 5 gal bucket. Obviously, this didn't happen at night. Since his arrival here, he has had available 24/7, abundant, fresh, warm water. All horses are out 20/7 and in 2+ hours AM and2+ hours PM. They eat, drink, lay down, get up and go out. He is fed in his stall, daily, (divided by 2 feedings), 10# 3rd cut alfalfa, 2# haystretcher, 2# beetpulp, meas. vita E and Se, 1 meas. magnesium, 1 oz. linseed oil meal, 1 cup veggie oil, free choice minerals, and a salt block. Outside is very good quality 1st cut tim/grass hay, "all you can eat".

Outside, Trucker is a reasonably normal drinker. Inside his stall, he dunks hay, drinks water through a mouthful of hay and usually empties his 5 gal. water bucket in his 2+ hours. If his water bucket is not empty when it is time to go out, he's begging me to wait a minute, while he finishes up. He's not rude- but he's quite clear with me. And, yes, after he leaves the stall and goes outside, there is a heated stock tank for all horses. After riding him this fall, (w/t- 30 min-knees not closed) and returning to the barn, he would dive into the bucket and suck down all 5 gal.

I had considered this more psychological than metabolic and had been waiting for the "light to go on". Both the "trimmer" and another horse person suggested that I am: 1. stressing his kidneys by feeding alfalfa (although this behavior preceeded the Nov. hay and the Dec./Jan. hay and alfalfa, 2. it is a metabolic problem, 3. it is unbalancing his electrolytes. His body score is 7 ish, no hay belly, short but extremely thick coat, frisky, happy- no skin tenting-ever.

so, the question- continue to continue or call the vet and do blood chem. etc? Even- just thanks for reading this!
Member:
wgillmor

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 12:50 pm:

CarlajA,

Since you write "Outside, Trucker is a reasonably normal drinker", I'd bet on a behavioral problem, not metabolic, but DrO may have another opinion.

If so, and you think this is a problem that needs to be fixed, you might try two, three or more buckets in his stall. Hopefully, he'll realize water will always be there.

Wiley
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 12:50 pm:

I can't speak to the quantity of water your horse is drinking, but dunking hay and drinking through a mouthful is not unusual. My mare does it all the time. It's annoying as I have to empty and clean her buckets more frequently, but no harm has ever come of it.

Aprox how much water does your horse consume on an average day? Understanding the total # of gallons would give you a better understanding of whether or not he is drinking an excess amount.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 2:16 pm:

Just from my experience at a boarding barn, horses that are fed alfalfa and or magneseium tend to drink and pee more.. We had many hay dunkers and as Fran said I think some of them just like to dunk their hay...no harm done except the mess.

When I had my horses on magnesium they drank way more...don't know if there is a reason for this or not.
Member:
rockin

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 2:21 pm:

Carla, is there any possibility that he either a) doesn't like the taste of the other horses' contributions to the group trough or b) his water is warmer when you give it to him inside and he prefers warmer water?

Other things to consider: he is eating his alfalfa, etc. in only 2 hours and perhaps is just thirsty after consuming so much hay in such a short period of time. Also, if you do not soak your beet pulp, maybe he would do better with it well soaked (still soupy)?

A yes to either of these questions would make me want the vet out: Does he have trouble swallowing his food without big gulps of water (unlikely if he drinks normally outside)? Does he urinate way more frequently than your other horses?

By the way: at a body score of 7, I would probably cut him back on the alfalfa and at least a bit of the oil, but it's up to you. Over a 6 is a bit too chubby for just about any horse, in the opinion of most vets.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 2:40 pm:

Don't know the answers to the original question, but I am happy to know I am not the only one who has a horse that treats food in the same manner as a raccoon does!!!

An observation with my 4 this time of year, is they go through spells where I swear the water level in the tank is not moving, to days where they seem to really drink alot. Each horse does have a different stall drinking personality; the dunker, the only half a bucket mare, the I drank the whole thing gelding, and the sloppy mare who sloshes it all over and then drinks what is left, sometimes.
Member:
dres

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 2:57 pm:

.... and what about the horse that takes a long pull of water then walks away pouring it out of their mouth all over the nicely bedded stall ?

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 3:38 pm:

I've been wondering about this dunking behavior. My paint gelding has to have a bucket for dunking or he uses his waterer, and if he doesn't have one in the stall, will carry the hay in as large a quantity as he can manage, to the outside waterer, where he DrOps it and proceeds to dunk by the mouthful. I thought it was just habit, but I learned from his breeder that his sire does this and has other offspring that do it. So my totally non scientific theory is that it is not so much a learned thing as a solution to an inherited thing like "dry mouth" or low salivary output, or something else physical. Any merit?
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 4:22 pm:

Hmmm, Julie, interesting theory, but at least for my hay dunking horse, doesn't apply. When correctly on the bit during work, she salivates and foams up like a mad dog, which of course is all good, until we are done with work and I remove the bridle and give her a face/ear scratching and the foam DrOps on top of my head
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 7:52 pm:

I am sorry CarlajA, I have read the post but why, exactly, do you think you might need to call the veterinarian?
DrO
Member:
mysi

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 10:22 pm:

CarlajA,
I think maybe the part of feeling he has to finish all of his water before he leaves the stall is likely psychological and may change over time. But the amount he is drinking doesn't sound excessive to me. I have a 17.2 draft cross and he drinks almost all of 2 buckets in 12 hours in his stall and about 15 gallons outside in 12 hours. In the summer much more than that. He pees alot too. He would also down an entire bucket after a ride. I was told by the barn owner when I first got him that it was abnormal, 3 years later he's still alive and healthy and still drinks and pees alot. I did do bloodwork on him, not because of that, only because I had just bought him and wanted to make sure everything was "running ok" and where it should be AND it was.

As far as the alfalfa, it may be like us eating something that makes us thirsty like peanut butter and crackers or something. It's not an unhealthy thing. My vet told me to take Moose off alfalfa completely, she said I was killing him with protein and only major athletes need alfalfa. Dr. O straightened me out on that. I personally think that the alfalfa is what has kept Moose looking so good since being out of work since August, he has kept his muscle form and looks as though he still works out every day.

But, if you think your horse is too fat, then maybe you need to cut back on his feed intake until you get him to a desired body weight. My boy is a 6 but any thinner and he gets hippy (hip bones protrude) and I hate that. He's just thick through the ribs and back, but drafts carry a different form, round butt, flat back, etc.
New Member:
carlaa

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2008 - 9:22 am:

Dr. Oglesby, I had been accepting this behavior as "normal" for him, but have recently been warned/alerted by others that: 1)I am creating this situation by feeding alfalfa, 2)I am stressing his kidneys because he is eating alfalfa, 3)Trucker has a metabolic issue, 4) consuming this amount of water is compromising his electrolyte balance, 5) I need to call the vet to do a blood chemistry. I am inclined to think this is learned behavior, but if I'm missing something I do so want to know. Bottom line- what am I missing? Thanks!
Member:
carlaa

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2008 - 9:34 am:

Fran, thanks for your input. Annoying? The stall is under sea level and I'm blowing through a bag of shavings/day instead of bag/week with the others. And they are clean shavings! But you are making me think! If the stall is a swamp, then he is not swallowing as much as I believed. interesting...

He empties a 5 gal. bucket AM and PM, and lowers the stock maybe equal to 10 gal each AM and PM.
Member:
carlaa

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2008 - 10:17 am:

Wiley, Thanks! good idea- water therapy. will do. This is ruining the harmony of my Wa. All ponies eat/drink in one corner and duty in the opposite. So I pick up a wet spot and a pile or two of solid waste. Shavings last forever- except for swampthing...
Member:
carlaa

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2008 - 10:27 am:

Diane! Thanks for your thoughts! Your're giving me more questions, good! So, magnesium is only within the last 6/7 days. I was told it would help reduce drinking and help with electrolytes. YIKES?!?! Chloe, our mare dunks also, but is fastidious, therefore no mess.
Member:
carlaa

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2008 - 11:18 am:

Erin, you are thorough! wow! a)Hubby is too good. He empties and scrubs tanks weekly. Friar's field mate is only one- a POA. b) water comes from the house underground, goes into the stock tanks, and is then used to fill the buckets in the stalls- water is recycled and keeps fresh, and is the same temp.

Beetpulp is made 12 hours before the meals. I do drain it before feeding- I could surely not drain his.

He is so normal outside, eats hay out of the hayboxes, grazes where the snow melts, plays Hicky You First, and Runanbuck, visits the horses across the street, long drinks and then it starts all over again.

Doesn't seem to urinate more frequently than the others, nor a whole lot more. Prefers not to urinate in the stall unless in over 2+ hours.

Hear you on the body score. Yes, he does look prosperous, but he is a draft X. He gets the oil because of my concern of Equine Polysaccharide storage myopathy. I had a horse back in the '90's that was donated to Cornell and Dr Beth Valentine for that reason. She saved his career and hunted him in NY and was eventing him in Oregon. I do so want this to be my last horse and we retire- him at 25, me at 85......
Member:
carlaa

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2008 - 11:31 am:

Good thought, Julie. Actually neat about your guy. But this is really a problem in the stall. Out side everyone has their own haybox that contains the chafe and leaves and he doesn't seem to want or need to walk to the water to dunk.

I wondered if it started pre-me, with dusty hay and he had been looking for H2O to keep the dust down.

I do get the appropriate saliva when riding, but cool brainstorm...good clue.
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2008 - 12:40 pm:

I took a quick look in DrOs info r.e water but couldn't find an "average" daily amount for a horse. But, I scanned very quickly, so CarlajA, if you haven't already, read through the info more carefully than I did. Perhaps if you can find that number, and understanding that horses will vary how much they drink depending upon work levels, size, etc., the 20 gallons or so your guy is drinking may not seem too much.

I can measure about 10 gallons a day for my mare, but what she gets in addition to that is anyone's guess. When turned out, she shares a tank with another horse so there's no way to be sure of additional intake. She's not a huge horse (1300lbs) but is in continuous work (4x/week training and we work pretty hard each session).
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2008 - 7:11 am:

Without examining your horse I cannot say what problems he might be having but I do not find this water drinking behavior is indicative of a health problem. It is a well established principle that eating stimulates horses to drink and many horses I know love to "dunk". Your horse apparently as read the books on normal behavior. Despite this being a commonly held belief, alfalfa in not harmful to the kidneys of a healthy horse.

But I am concerned about the idea that you have a horse that is graded a "7" on the condition scale yet you continue to feed such an energy rich diet. Is there a reason you want your horse that heavy? A six on the Henneke scale would be healthier. To address my general questions about your feeding program and your specific questions on alfalfa, I want you to study Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses.
DrO
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2008 - 8:02 pm:

"Yes, he does look prosperous, but he is a draft X. He gets the oil because of my concern of Equine Polysaccharide storage myopathy."
Carla, does the horse have a history of PSSM? Or are you just being cautious?
I, too, vote for a less energy-filled diet. Being a draft cross doesn't mean he should be fatter. His structure alone will make him large, but he doesn't need more flesh than any lighter horse breed. If he needs the oil, maybe you can cut back on his other food to make room for the calories?
As far as the water..I say let 'im drink. Heck, my husband drinks more water than any human I've ever met. He's fine, just likes it, I guess.
Member:
gailkin

Posted on Saturday, Feb 2, 2008 - 1:53 pm:

Carla,
Can you get a copy of the February issue of Horse Journal. They had two articles at the back talking about horses and diagnosing EPSM. They also discussed that feeding extra fat may not help and can actually be harmful for several reasons including causing insulin resistance. I forgot to bring the article with me, but if you can't find it online let me know and I will try to email it to you. Gail
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 3, 2008 - 7:56 am:

Gail, I think we have the most recent and best information on EPSM, but I may be prejudiced.

If this is a concern and that is not at all certain from the above discussion, I would recommend you start with Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Rhabdomyolysis: Tying Up, Shivers, PSSM, EPSM. I would be interested in discussing any way that the Horse Journal differs with our recommendations. Best would be to start such a discussion in the EPSM topic. We do not recommend the routine use of fat in EPSM/PSSM horses that are fat to obese though it should be realised Dr. Valentine believes it essential in all cases (recent personal communication). I would not buck her opinion lightly.
DrO
Member:
carlaa

Posted on Thursday, Feb 7, 2008 - 7:32 am:

Gail, Hi. I subscribe to the Horse Journal so for some reason I had to find it. It seems that I had started to read it, saw Dr. Beth Valentine's pic, then the article re veggie oils, rolled my eyes, felt my ears fold down and said "later"....This is a big contradiction to what I had been personally been told. oh, dear....

There was a problem with Trucker- his big movement degraded into a shuffle. My first thought was EPSM, but when he was tested for lyme he was positive (about a week after his first vaccination); as also were the other 4 horses after a series of three vaccinations over 6 months. So, having that in the back of my mind-(EPSM) he has been getting only 1 cup of oil/day. His movement may be even more elastic/loose than prepurchase.... Every horse has a "hole" in him. No horse is totally sound in body or mind. Or at least in the 60+/- horses I've had. Getting so little history on this horse, I figured I just didn't know where the "problem " is. He didn't work out where he was...why not? I guess I'm trying to outsmart myself...I'm waiting until spring when I can get in my ring and lunge, ride and check for EPSM.

I've got the trimming problem solved, content about his water intake, working on his low phosphorous/high calcium intake (Dan White from Poulin Feeds is having the hay analyzed), nagging my boarder to call the vet and have her POA's vita E reduced to normal limits, and rechecked Trucker's little body and I do or rather he does have a back bone, no fat on his tail head at all, his sweenied muscles behind the shoulder blades from too narrow a huntseat saddle has filled in, his bony shoulders have filled in, no fat deposits on his withers, or neck, (but nice crest and the big bulge on the bottom is gone), and his ribs are covered, (where I got the 7+/-) but the covering is hard not soft and I can just feel them. Thanks for your input. I do appreciate...
Member:
carlaa

Posted on Thursday, Feb 7, 2008 - 8:22 am:

Hi Fran, I think I missed responding to your post..Did read it and believe you've got a good point. I kinda felt the same until several people made me spiral into self doubt. Thanks.
Member:
carlaa

Posted on Thursday, Feb 7, 2008 - 9:03 am:

Hi Erika. Catching up on the posts. I'm just being highly neurotic and myself. I don't know that he has EPSM. I've had conversations with (as well as several friends who have) Dr. Beth Valentine and it was suggested to feed the veggie oil. This was back in the mid 90's. When I got Trucker, he was a big enthusiastic mover. After a few weeks, I noticed a shuffle behind. So my first thought was EPSM and my second was the dreaded lyme. He tested positive for lyme (about a week after his 1st lyme vac. (my other 4 all had lyme last fall even though they had the 3 vacs.). I was asleep- should have had him tested before the vac. I figured he was safe because he came from Montana, spent 3 months in a straight stall ( no turnout) in Pa., then here for a week. When the ring appears in the spring, I'll start lunging and riding again and if symptoms reappear, I'll have him checked for EPSM. In the meantime, he's on the small amount of oil. His movement is now extravagant- so did he have lyme when I bought him or is the small amount of oil helpful? Poor planning...Anyway, he's not obese- I can still feel backbone- not table flat. No fat pads on tail head or on abdomen near navel, or on crest. Ribs are well covered but I can just feel them. Covering is hard, not soft. Hollows behind shoulders are filled in where the muscles had sweenied from a saddle that had too narrow a tree. Waiting for the hay analysis ( 3rd week) to address high calcium.

I'm expecting his muscle mass will make him look large and hoping that correct riding will make the muscle mass. Looking for a baroque horse... and oddly enough, he looks like a Belgian/Lusitano X. Pretty funny.

Thank you for making me think. It is so easy to just cruise through life.
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC