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Discussion on Help with Nutrition and weight gain.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 2:20 pm:
Hello Dr.O and all,
I wasn't sure where to post this as my 16 year old quarterhorse gelding has had multiple problems this winter. Here goes the history:
Fall of 2004, unexplained alopecia with skin biopsies revealing nothing infectious, bacterial or fungal. Vet's recommendation to not blanket over winter and topically treat hairless lesions with Hibitane cream. Also to give 40ml of raw linseed oil with feed.
Called vet out in December as he wasn't looking too good weight wise and asked to have blood work done. Lab work came back normal. Continued feeding Alfalfa cubes twice a day, plus maintenance dose of "Farriers Formula". Mineral block and water from automatic watering system has always been available.
End of February or beginning of March, have vet out again to pull more blood and have a look see as this guy is looking kind of thin and no energy.
Blood work is still normal.
In the middle of all this, I have been travelling back and forth to see my ailing father, so I have been out of the loop to really investigate this alfalfa cube only diet. It is a new thing for my horse (COPD issues) and a new thing for his care giver. Two other horses in her care are also on cubed diets. From what I have been able to recap as to how much my horse is getting, I would say about 15 to 17 lbs of cubes per day spaced over two feedings. The other two horses on cubes, about the same.
What I have noticed this spring is that my horse has lost weight and muscle in his topline. He is ribby and you can definitely feel his spine. His butt end is most noticeable. He does look like crap.
Check him in to the Vet College (A teaching hospital) for some extensive workups. Blood workups for liver and kidney function as this guy is peeing some pretty clear unconcentrated pee. Dexamethasone suppression test for perhaps Cushings related issues. I won't know the results from this until Monday. They did run some tests for the urine, witheld water to check the concentration and it was checking out normal as he was able to concentrate his urine. Checked his respiratory functions and all was coming out fine.
So it appears that my guy is normal for a horse his age, but looking quite thin and ribby. The good doctors at this college did explain that perhaps we need to up the groceries and to expect some results in 1 to 2 months. If not, further testing, such as rectal exam, ultrasound and belly tap. The doctors were very good at explaining the risks involved with all of the procedures. (Scary)!
So where I am at right now, is what and how much do I feed this guy? He lives outdoors, because of the COPD issues in a dirt paddock. He has a shelter and an automatic watering system. He has had mineral blocks but will eat them like candy. Fence posts are fair game as well. Water is consumed always after I give him something to eat.
As of the last 6 weeks we have added 2 cups of soaked beet pulp and Masterfeeds Patriot 12% Surmount pellet at 1 cup per day. Vet did say I can give him soaked free choice hay and 20lbs of Alfalfa cubes spaced over two feedings. I tell this to his care giver and he/she says that their source of cubes gives only about 15lbs a day and some minerals mixed in with the feed. 20lbs of Alfalfa cubes is too much. My horse is 15.2 hands and weighs 1030lbs. He was 1114lbs in December, so he has lost 84lbs over the winter.
It is not such a big deal as to how much he weighs, but what his condition is. Ribby, no topline and back end looking very slight.
What do I add to this horses diet to get him back to his old rounded self. I don't want him overweight, too much stress on his sore heels and hocks, but just so that he feels better.
Sorry for long post and can add more if questions arise. Thank you so much.
Susan B.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 2:29 pm:
I guess I should add the content of the Patriot 12% Surmount pellets.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 2:35 pm:
Sorry,
Above is wrong attachement and I could not edit my own post.
Here is the correct attachement:
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 2:47 pm:
Hi Susan,
I'm sorry to hear about Laser...My two cents...Can you add corn oil to his diet? I've heard the beet pulp you've added is good for weight gain too. My friend takes in ottb's and this is her staple for adding weight.
Wishing you both good thoughts!!
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 2:54 pm:
I'm with Aileen on the oil. I have always had good luck with it combined with a complete, alfalfa-based pellet. (1/4 c twice a day, increasing it to up to 2-3 c per day) After the weight is back on, I wean them off the corn oil Also, I've had good luck with rice bran added to a complete pellet. It is odd that there are no discrepancies in his blood work, so that makes it seem as if he just isn't getting enough calories. Rehabilitation of underweight horses is a fascinating topic to me. I will be very interested to see what your vets say, and to watch the progress of your horse's journey back to good condition. I have been told by a vet that increasing the fiber disproportionately to the increase in the fat calories can be detrimental to weight gain. Could he be getting too much fiber?
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 4:20 pm:
With all the visits to vets, I assume his teeth are in good shape and he's "on target" with his worming schedule?
I've had very good luck feeding Equine Senior to older horses. It's a nice chewy pellet and is well balanced. Corn oil, as mentioned, helps put on weight also. With rice bran be careful not to get the phosphorus/calcium ratio off. How much, if any, exercise is the guy getting? Lack of exercise could be a contributing factor, also, to his condition. Good luck!
btw-have you read the article Dr. O has on equine nutrition and feeding? A lot of good information is there.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 1:29 am:
Aileen, Holly and Sara,
Thank you so much for the response. I can certainly add corn oil as his liver function checks out OK. Will be cautious to do this slowly.
Laser has never colicked that I am aware of.
Sara; His worming and teeth flotation are up to snuff. Not much exercise over the winter as the snow has been deep and the weather cold. No indoor riding facility. Fecal counts are negative. Been reading Dr.O's articles and then some, my head is swimming.
Holly; I want him so bad to be in good condition. My belief is that he is not getting enough fibre or chew time. Fence posts, salt blocks and sucking back the water to make up for the lost hay could be giving him these problems. The forage cube manufacturers don't tell you about this.
Aileen; I have added some beet pulp to his diet. He is up to 2 cups per day dry, which makes about 4 cups after soaking. His enthusiastic hunger has never been a problem, but could be a symptom of what is going on. I am sure I could squirt his "Wormers" in the feed bucket and he would consume it all. I have seen him in a lot of arthritic pain and he will manage to eat.
I will keep everyone posted about his condition and I won't find out results about the Dexamethazone suppression tests until Monday.
Thanks and hugs.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 6:30 am:
Is the horse on any pasture Susan?
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 9:42 am:
Laser is not on pasture on a regular basis.
Susan B.
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Member:
Rjfarmer
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Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 12:09 pm:
If he is eating fence posts and chewing down the mineral blocks is it possible he would do better with hay than cubes? (Takes longer to eat, more satisfying to chew perhaps?) Could you supplement the alfalfa cubes with a good grassy hay?
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 1:19 pm:
Hello Susan G.
The reason why he was put on cubes is because of COPD issues. The hay that is available is from last year and new crops aren't available yet.
I could try soaking the hay first now that the weather has warmed up.
Feeding cubed diets does have it's problems and winter time does give me some challenges. I will have to be on the lookout for some quality grass hay.
Perhaps my guy is just hungry and was not getting enough food. So he drinks a lot of water, chews the fence and consumes the salt/mineral blocks  . The other two horses that board with Laser are also on the same cubes. They have lost weight also.
Susan B.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 3:44 pm:
Gee, Susan . . . sounds like they all need more calories.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 5:51 pm:
Yes Holly,
My sentiments exactly. What I am finding out is that the cubes he was on don't always come from the same source. The feed store could not give me a guaranteed analysis as they obtain "their" cubes from all over. I have had a few heated discussions with the manager over this.
The feed and tack store where I normally get the cubes from was out of stock at some point during the winter and we had to go with the above questionable cubes for something to eat. He could have been eating compressed dryer fluff for all I know  . All cubes are not the same as a hay or roughage replacement and I am learning this expensive lesson.
I guess my question would be how much to feed my guy and what to add to the diet to round things out? Kinda hard to do if one doesn't know what is in the staple diet .
Still waiting patiently for some lab results.
Will keep posting  .
Susan B.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 6:24 pm:
We are negative on the Cushings  .
Still awaiting Coggins and Selenium results. Will know something else in a couple of days.
Susan B.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, May 2, 2005 - 6:36 pm:
Yeah!!!!
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 - 2:17 am:
Susan,
Again, I recommend corn oil added to a complete feed. In old discussions, you will read about some of the amounts that have been fed to emaciated horses. I will mention, again, what I fed to one emaciated horse (bones and skin was all he was) who went on to live an additional ten years in good health. Of course, you know that you have to start slowly, but after a couple of weeks he, who could not masticate hay or grass, was getting twelve one-pound coffee cans of complete feed each day (broken into three feedings) soaked with warm water and with one cup of oil per feeding (3 cups per day) . . . again, I stress that we started him slowly. After a month or so, we cut out the mid-day feeding . . . and after another month, we cut out the oil, but kept the feedings at 4 one-pound coffee cans of complete pellets each feeding. We only used soaked alfalfa cubes (a large double handful per feeding) to provide more chewing time for him. They were an extra bonus, not the main feed for him.
I know every horse is different, but when all the horses at the boarding facility are getting fed the cubes and are looking thin and tired, then I bet they just aren't getting enough food.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 - 6:32 am:
With her only feeding a cup of concentrate per day Holly I am not sure I would turn to oil at this time. I agree you can go up to 20 lbs cubes daily but I would NOT feed soaked hay if your horse has COPD (see COPD article).
I would substitue your concentrate for the beet pulp, allow 5 day to adjust then double it, and do that every 3 weeks until you start to gain weight. You should not be feeding beet pulp with such a high alfalfa diet because of calcium / phosphorous issues (see the section on beet pulp in the forage article for more).
I have have several of these discussions lately and I have to shake my head Susan. You read the details until your head swims but somehow look over the second paragraph to the overview article that if followed carefully would solve you problem and have saved you hundreds of dollars in veterinary fees. I am not picking on you Susan but trying to emphasize to folks out there that a winter let down in condition, primarily do to decrease pasture and increased caloric needs, is one of the most common problems you run into and all it requires to fix is a few more groceries.
DrO
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 - 9:34 am:
Ooops . . . I didn't remember the tiny amount of concentrate listed in the first post . . . just went back to reread. I was working off of the alfalfa cube info and thinking that if the barn manager isn't going to increase the dry goods she's feeding, then the calories will have to come from somewhere else.
How long has your barn manager been caring for horses? Doesn't she notice their lack of condition?
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 - 12:57 pm:
Dr.O,
I knew you weren't picking on me , and you are right, there is a lot of confusion on horse nutrition.
What prompted me for some further testing was my horses urine. See Equine Diseases/Urinary System Excessive Drinking and Urination, Polydipsia/Polyuria (PD/PU). When he does urinate it is very pale yellow, clear and unconcentrated.
The vets were able to get concentrated urine from his two day stay at the college. So perhaps this symptom is due to alfalfa cubes, plus eating the salt/mineral block and drinking water. The vet bill was not that bad  .
So.....to recap this discussion, I should avoid the beet pulp and up his concentrate which is the Patriot Surmount 12 pellet. See attachment in above post. He has been getting 2 cups a day of this concentrate for about 2 weeks. He can get some pasture time with a couple of buddies, but that practise is inconsistent and relies on his caregiver to be home and not working that day. I have considered giving him a salt/mineral supplement as opposed to the salt/mineral block because he eats the block. This would not be fed free choice but added to his food. Here is an analysis of this product.
Selenium levels could be a concern.
I will be contacting the feed/cube supplier to get some sort of analysis for the cubes and will post.
Thanks for all your help Dr.O
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 - 6:25 pm:
Got it, the urine thing makes more sense and if the bill low maybe less that you could have done it at home. Trying to collect urine from a horse can be a challenge. Definately switch to loose salt in the feed, the article on salts and electrolytes gives types and amount recommendations. How odd that there is no selenium however, alfalfa is considered a selenium concentrating plant so as long as grown in area with adequate selenium may be enough.
DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 - 6:45 pm:
Opps I now see the selenium listed at the top. 10mg/kg that would be considered a low level of supplementation of a trace mineral salt and unless the alfalfa is rich or you are giving more than a few ounces should be acceptable.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, May 3, 2005 - 9:23 pm:
Thank you Dr.O!
His selenium levels as per blood sample are within normal range. I just found this out. I am still waiting on the Coggins Test. The reason why I have concerns about the selenium is because of the alfalfa cubes and the area in which they are manufactured. I don't know the source of the alfalfa itself, but I am assuming it comes from a selenium rich area. I really need to know what is in those cubes  . I can have hair and hoof samples submitted for further analysis if I like.
I have done a urine collection and a fecal sample at home and then rushed down to the lab. Thank God I didn't get stopped by the police. He did have a second urine sample done at the hospital. Urine and fecal samples are checking out negative for any concerns as per the good doctors at the hospital.
What this is all boiling down to is that he is eating a cubed diet because of the breathing issues. Whatever poundage his caregiver had him on was not adequate due to not knowing what was exactly in those cubes or some other erroneous information. It drives me up the wall when someone says " We give two scoops or two flakes". That is another soapbox/lounge issue that I won't go into in this discussion.
The next step would be to have some malabsorption problems investigated if he is not gaining weight on his present diet. This guy used to be an easy keeper and weight had to be reduced because of arthritic issues. Have we overdone it?
Susan B.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 1:38 am:
Holly,
In going back and reading all of the posts to this discussion, I realized that I made a comment about amounts of food given. It is in my above post and I do not want you to think that this is directed at you personally. I hope you haven't thought so. I highly value your suggestions and expertise on rehabbing the skinny horse.
The cube diet is a new thing for my horse, me and his care giver. He was weaned off the hay and slowly introduced to the cubes over last summer. Because of the Alopecia issues in the fall, I didn't blanket over the winter and did it get cold!
The barn manager/owner has been caring for other peoples horses for about 4 years and she has been caring for her own a great deal longer. I don't understand the lack of concern about the weight loss issues in my horse or the other two that are on cubed diets because of hay sensitivities. It is possible that she didn't see any wasting conditions because of thick winter coats. I had to question her about the amount of cubes my horse was getting and how much it weighed. Her answer was 2 and 1/2 scoops in the morning and 2 and 1/2 scoops in the evening. The rest of the conversation sort of went downhill after that. We have hugged and made up since as there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about feeding these cubes in the first place. It is new for all of us.
On a good note, Laser is looking a little better and perkier, but this increased diet does have to be worked in slowly. That much I know and it is better to err on the side of caution.
I will keep posting until we get this sorted out and then some. People would like to know how this all turns out.
Susan B.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 2:00 am:
Susan,
I didn't even think of it . . . no worries.
I will look forward to future posts on this discussion . . . Maybe you can take some "before" and "after" photos?
Take care.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 12:05 pm:
Great news Susan! I'm praying the coggins is negative as well...Hang in there!
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Jun 17, 2005 - 10:03 pm:
Hello All,
Just an update on my horses' condition. It is improving. All testing for anything nasty was negative .
After doing some sleuthing into the amount he was getting in his diet, it was discovered it was not enough. I think his caregiver assumed volume was an accurate way to feed rather than poundage. I don't expect her to weigh food each and every time, but once you know how much the scoop or can weighs then you can go from there.
I am posting a picture of Laser that was taken April 25, 2005. Two days later he was at the Vet Hospital for all of the above testing.
In this photo you can still see some of the residual from the Alopecia we had in the fall. He is still wearing his winter coat, but you can see his ribs.
Tell me what you think. I will post a new picture of him as soon as it stops raining to show some weight gain.
Susan B.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Jun 17, 2005 - 10:38 pm:
What a wonderful, kind face he has. Definitely a Quarter Horse, and I bet he looks loads better since this was taken.
I hope the barn manager has learned to gauge feed more correctly. How awful for horses to be on a forced weight loss program when they didn't need to lose weight.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Jun 17, 2005 - 11:09 pm:
Thank you Holly,
That "Sweet" face of his sure gets me going.
He has since shedded out his winter coat and his summer coat is nice and shiny. I have given him Betadine Baths for the Alopecia in case it was Rain Rot, but wont overdo it.
His poundage in cubes is now up to 14lbs, plus his concentrate, plus some pasture which is very rich at the moment. I have also increased his concentrate. The other owners of the thin horses want to know what I am doing....hmmmm.
Laser does benefit from not being overweight, he does have joint problems, but this was too skinny for my liking.
Will post new picture soon. It is thunder and lightning outside and rain. So maybe in a day or two.
Good wishes,
Susan B.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 18, 2005 - 2:49 am:
Oh my gosh! You must have been beside yourself.
Keep socking the feed and oil to him. Hope the other horses are going up in weight also. Can't wait for the "after" pictures. Good Luck
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 18, 2005 - 8:47 am:
Don't forget Susan it was not the physical exam, not the laboratory work, not the volume or even the weight of the feed that let you know it was too little feed: it was his condition. Yes you should review management, yes if there are clinical signs of disease these should be pursued but the amount you should feed today depends on the condition of your horse and how it has been changing over the last month.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Jun 20, 2005 - 12:58 am:
Thanks Dr.O.
I have been reviewing the management and changes have been made. The reason for all the testing is that he had some clear unconcentrated urine during this weight loss period. It was quite clear that this guy was not getting enough to eat.
Here is a picture taken today while he was out in the pasture. He still has a little way to go...ribs slightly showing and still a little bony in the top line.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Jun 20, 2005 - 2:20 am:
Beautiful, shiny boy, lovely scenery and a gorgeous day. I'm guessing . . . would 50 more pounds do it for him?
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 21, 2005 - 2:32 am:
Wow, nice change! Bet he feels better too!
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 21, 2005 - 6:57 am:
Susan, what an ordeal! So happy to see how good Laser's looking! Wishing you continued success.
D.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 21, 2005 - 10:30 am:
Wow, Susan, gorgeous!
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New Member:
Golden
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 21, 2005 - 10:48 am:
my horse was the same way last winter and not sick. Let him on pasture it is like medicine its self.Good luck
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 21, 2005 - 11:16 am:
Thank you all,
He is looking and feeling better. More energy than I have seen in a long time.
I have not added corn oil to his diet at this time, because it is summer and there is pasture for him. When we get into winter feeding again, I will add about 1/4 cup of corn oil to his cubes.
He is 15.2 hands and a good weight for him is around 1150lbs or maybe a little less. His weight was 1030lbs when I had him at the Vet College for testing. Vet assessment was to get another 100lbs on this guy.
All in all I will keep checking his condition more so than his weight to monitor progress. Will post another picture in about a month to see how we are doing. Hopefully in won't be in the "My Horse is Too Fat" section  .
Cheers,
Susan B.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 21, 2005 - 1:34 pm:
You are to be commended, Susan, on what you've accomplished with your guy. He looks like a different horse, so healthy looking! I'm glad he's looking and feeling so much better.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 21, 2005 - 3:34 pm:
Thank you Sara,
But I am afraid I can't take all the credit.
This site with the good Dr.O and his very informative articles have helped me through a lot of issues with my horse. Also tying for first position is the interaction with other members on this site to share similar experiences and hear their remedies or solutions. This is a wonderful E-Barn aisle place.
Thanks,
Susan B.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 21, 2005 - 4:22 pm:
Susan, I totally agree! However, in your case, you are the one who had to do the actual work and have the patience to help Laser. It's just good to see him (& others on this site) whose owner's care enough to do something.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Oct 24, 2005 - 2:56 pm:
Hello Dr.O and all,
After a good summer with Dr.Green, and Dr.Green was in plentiful supply this year, Laser has rounded out nicely.
Here is a picture of him taken in September. I had just given him a bath in Betadine see this thread .
There are a few wet spots on him still and he is just starting to grow a winter coat. I will not be giving him more baths this year.
He looks so much better and now that we are back on the winter diet of alfalfa cubes and supplements, I hope we can maintain this weight and condition.
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Member:
Bucky
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Posted on Monday, Oct 24, 2005 - 6:42 pm:
He looks very good, you need to put a new picture of Laser in the image portion of this website
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 25, 2005 - 6:18 am:
Lookin' goooood...
DrO
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 25, 2005 - 6:55 am:
What an improvement, Susan. He looks lovely. Congratulations on your efforts - so rewarding when they pay off like this!
Lynn
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Member:
Jgordo03
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 25, 2005 - 3:43 pm:
Susan,
He looks beautiful and happy! Keep up the good work. I just love it when the first of their new winter coats come in?
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