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Discussion on Flares cracks and long toes
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 6:46 am:
Dr.O. My farrier seems to have fallen off the earth, anyone that uses him hasn't heard from him.
Hanks feet are way over due and look really bad, the long toe is making him slightly ouchy and he is landing toe first again. I am contemplating trimming him myself, but his hoof is NOT normal and I am worried I may really lame him. He's been doing very good until these long toes, flares. His quarters have broken out and are actually self trimming pretty well. His toes are getting big cracks in them.
How do you tell with a stretched white line where to trim to. I would rather just rasp if this is possible. I'm not real confident and he is just so touchy about his hooves. Would rasping thin the walls too much and cause more cracking? It looks like he could loose a good amount of toe, but from experience I know too much leaves him sore.
I can post pics this evening if that would help you help me, Thanks
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 7:18 am:
Diane,
If you'd like you can email me and I may have someone who can give you advice. This lady has been really helpful in my journey to trimming myself and I can ask her to give you advice. I am thinking that it may be in Hanks best interest if you took over lightly rasping every week; with help of course.
Just a thought.
It is very satisfying to know you are doing your horses feet as nature intended. Feet staying in shape from natural wear, only the wear is from us rasping on a regular basis.
fancy4j@gmail.com
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 7:35 am:
Thanks Angie, I wish Hanks feet were as simple as rasping . With the wet conditions, missing a trim, and the weird rubbery, stretched white line, I'm afraid any suggestions to get his hooves straightened out would be way over my head.
Somehow I would like to at least get his toes back and remove the flares. I will post pics tonight just to show you the challenge. I believe I am probably capable of in between raspings, but right now he is way over due for a trim. Then there is the thin soles too. I just hope the farrier calls soon, or I will have to find another and that is NOT easy around here.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 8:12 am:
"Simple as rasping" well, in nature they are rasped by the environment. I felt over my head for the first year doing my own. I took heels down too far, then let toes get too long and had to get heels back under the horses. And 2 of the 4 have flares that I fight all the time. I would do the trims, take pictures, email them to my new found friend, and she'd tell me everything that was wrong. I used to cry in frustration! I'd think the hooves looked good, she'd say NOPE. Some things I thought I'd never understand!
Taking toes back is rasping vertically. Nothing off the toe at the bottem.
Flares are caused by an area that is too long, like on quarters. They should be a tad shorter than the rest of the hoof wall.
Flares can be caused by bars not being done correctly.
The hardest thing for me to grasp was taking the bars down, DOWN CORRECTLY. "Scooping them back" so as to lower the bars, bringing the heel point back, but not lowering the heels too much!!!
Ah, your head is spinning now?? I know the feeling! BUT, once you start to see it, and start to see PROGRESS, it clicks in your head and the hooves will improve. My little flat footed mare who stood with her front and back feet under her too far, is standing square now. Her feet are hard, even though they are white hooves.
My gelding who I took the heels down too low on, he's looking great now too. Even Tango with his big feet, he's doing well too. No lameness for going on 2 years.
Read, read, and study the articles on the barefoot sites!
Diane, If I can do this, you can do this. Hank will thank you by being sound, with nice hoofies!
I am still learning, and wouldn't want to be the main person to guide you of course.
O.k., I am done preaching now. It is exciting though to know I am doing my horses hoofs on a weekly or biweekly basis, and those tweaks are fantastic for their health. (When waiting for results though, every 3-4 weeks is a better schedule)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 3:00 pm:
I wonder if the farrier reads HA. He called and is coming tonight at 7 Thank goodness.
Angie I think I may rasp on Hank once the farrier get a decent trim on him, he usually leaves his toe too long IMO, but at least the major part of it will be gone and much easier for me to maintain.
I am afraid if I start I will become obsessed with it And I have too much obsessing my mind now! Thanks
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 4:15 pm:
Here are two very good sites to start the obsessing: The first is a detailed description of how to trim that you can modify so that you only need a rasp and it has lots of photos: https://www.ironfreehoof.com/top.htm
This one deals with flares, go to the menu for Flares, you will find the answer to lots of your questions here: https://www.barefoothorse.com/
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 5:14 pm:
LOL Julie I have read and re-read those websites...it's courage I lack .
Hanks hooves are so touchy, it is very easy to make him sore with to short a trim, or if he is left too long.
The barefoot trimmer I had yrs. ago was great, Hanks hooves could not have LOOKED better, but he was always lame. That farrier always said he had thin flexible soles and finally gave up and we put shoes on him. My vet calls his hooves a challenge at the very least and this was all BEFORE he foundered. I would have no problems messing with my other horses hooves, but ol' Hank is way too touchy for my skills, with him finally being sound (for him) barefoot I would really hate to mess it up. Thanks for the website I always appreciate your input.
HMMM I just saw at the bottom here Dr.O. is going to be unavailable until 7/21...did I miss something?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 8:42 pm:
The farrier just left and I voiced my concerns to see what he thought about Mr. sensitive hooves. He got more aggressive and took more toe off then usual, his hooves LOOK really good. However (this is going to be hard to believe) it was storming so hard I couldn't walk him around to see if he was sore. Tomorrow will tell the tale. I hope he can walk on his pretty hooves tomorrow
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 7:24 am:
Keeping my fingers crossed, Diane, that Hank is walking soundly this morning!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 7:37 am:
Pictures please of the new trim!
And obsessing is good! Do you think you are the only one who does that? Since I started trimming, I head out to ride and look at hoofs, and end up getting the rasp and hoof knife out! After I do one horse, then I look at the other 3 with a critical eye, see I can tweak a little here or there, and pretty soon horse number 2 is in the cross ties.
BUT, it is really easier to do a tweak here and there, instead of trying to rasp a complete trim every 4 weeks. I don't think I can do anything with nippers as my hands/wrists are weak, so I CAN NOT let the hoofs get too long.
The sites Julie has listed are wonderful.
And speaking of obsessing, I have piles of pages I've printed out from websites like those Julie suggested.
And pages of pictures of my horses feet taken at all angles. And pages of pictures with those pictures "marked up" by the gal who offered to help me. And p of p's of other peoples horses hoofs....you get the picture? LOL!!!
And the pile is beside the lazy boy in here, where it's been all winter and every so often I go through it and study the pictures. Oh, I read too, haha!
One last thing & I'll quit hogging your post here; if you tweak Hank's hoofs regularly, his soles will hopefully toughen up as they'll stay closer to the ground! Of course it'll help if it quits raining and stays dry for more than a day or 2.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 8:07 am:
When I fed... Hank is tender and his digital pulses are up with a little heat . This is what happens when he is trimmed as he should be. When I discussed it with the farrier I asked if he thought he would be sore and he said hard telling with Hank...which is true. I cleaned his hooves this morning to get a closer look and I do think he did a good job. I will take pics this afternoon if it isn't raining and I can get the mud off good enough. I would love opinions.! The farrier did say it appeared as if he did not have wld which was good news anyway. I plan on giving him bute for a few days...is that a bad idea? My thinking with the elevated pulses and slight heat he has some inflammation going and I DON'T want to set of any laminitis.
I DO read all the stuff I can on hooves, I guess I am obsessed, just don't apply it physically. First thing I look at on a horse are their hooves!
This stuff just doesn't seem to apply to Hank completely anyway .
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 5:05 pm:
OK HELP. Hank is quite sore tonight, I am going to give him some bute. The first pics are right after his prior trim, so you can only imagine what they looked like at 8 weeks...I usually have him on a 5-6 week schedule.
Right after Trim early June (he was ouchy after this one too) but not as bad.
Yesterdays trim, sorry about the quality, but he could not stand long with one hoof up...a very bad sign IMHO.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 5:38 pm:
Diane,
In the 2nd picture it looks like he's had the toe rolled too far back onto his sole. Second picture from the most recent trimming. Looks like the farrier wants him to develope a toe callus by forcing it. It also looks like he's high on the quarters, and needs his heel point brought back, but not his heel lowered. MY big downfall is getting that right. And the poor horse has no walls. I don't think the bars look correct either, but, BUT, it is so hard to tell from pictures.
I really would love to fw them to the gal who is helping me and get her thoughts as she is more qualified than I am. If you want me to ask her opinion, please email the pictures.
If you do that, you must lay the camera right on the floor, Prefer cement surface, take shots from the sides, rear and front of EACH hoof. And make sure to get a straight on shot from the heel to the toes, better even than your last picture.
It's helpful to mark each hoof with magic marker: RF, LF, RH, LH, on the bottom, and if you are saving them on the computer, with the dates, you'll have a wonderful record also of the progress or lack of progress.
Besides helping Hank, I'd learn too from her comments. If she will comment; she hasn't seen any new pics from me for a few months so she's probably getting antsy for new shots to look at!
I'd have to email them back to you and ask her permission to have you post them on here. She is a professional after all.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 8:30 pm:
THANKS Angie, first off let me say I can NOT take good hoof pics no matter how hard I try!.
Now I will try to explain this trimming dilema. If you will notice in the !st set of pics farrier left wall longer at the toe, EXCEPT Hanks wall just flares right out flat soon as it touches the ground. The white line is so stretched there is nothing to hold it there is the only thing I can figure. So in my thinking anyway somehow we have to get that WL bond back with the wall, we can not leave it stretched like that. So to put it in simple terms wall at toes hit ground and splat, big flare immediately. That's why I thought he may have WLD. (and maybe he does).
SOOO the cure to this I THINK, and I have studied is to keep that wall at the toe from hitting the ground and pulling the white line. To keep the horse from getting too sore you must move break over back so he is not having abducting forces there. (he is landing heel first again).
NOW we have to deal with the thin sole thing, so I think that's why farrier leaves a little more wall at quarters and heels, which in turn leave the quarters to break out by there selves...usually about 3 weeks after trim....but by then he is usually doing pretty good and the whole stinkin cycle starts again!!!
I do know the farrier didn't do a perfect job, but his hooves LOOK so much better and the toe flare is gone....until that wall hits the ground!
Pictures just don't tell the whole story. We are dealing with thin soles, founder fall out, and crappy hooves in general....
The cure is shoes YES shoes, he is so much more comfortable in them, but I want to avoid them for now if I can, he's not being ridden and they are next to impossible in the winter with these hills and ice. SO what I want to do is put him on a 4 week schedule MAX keep that WL from stretching and cross my fingers he doesn't stay in a continual state of soreness, if he does the shoes will have to go on, but I am going to give this a try for the next couple mos. and see if it works out.
Does that make sense????? I do need help, I am so way off base sometimes it is not good
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 9:28 pm:
Diane,
I just got an email from my helper friend (on equine massage, great article) and I told her about your troubles some what, and asked if she would have advice if she saw pictures.
I am thinking a few things based on your last post and what she has tried to drum into my non receptive thick skull:
What causes flares is pressure from somewheres, correct? On the quarters, it may mean that part of the wall isn't short enough. Or the bars are flaring out and pushing the wall out.
On the toe, again, the bars can be building up towards the front? It's hard to understand, but it seems those dang bars cause more headaches and it don't get solved by just cutting them down to the sole, it's more complicated and I am not in position to explain what I don't understand 100%.
I was backing up the toes, backing up the toes, and BACKING up the toes..and the heels were still underslung. WHY? Because the bars were not being trimmed and were pushing the toe back OUT! (and it looked like they are done well in the first set of pics, not sure on the 2nd set) Once I got that, ta da, mare is standing normal. Still flat footed, we're working on waiting for change there.
If the toe is flaring, that is why I, IMHO, you should be rasping that toe back 2x a week, rasping vertically only, nothing on the under side of the toe. Or at least touching up the roll...that might be better with his thinner walls. Now, if it's rasped back to the white line right now, then of course he will be sore and you can't do that.
If the bars are not passive, he will be sore. It's hard to have the bars curved just right, ending in the right spot, etc. They are MY nightmare!
If I understand it correctly, you want the horse to land heel first, then the toe, and the reason you do the mustang roll is because you don't want the outer wall to land first at the toe, and I think the roll looks wrong on the pics and the sole of toe would land first? That could hurt.
Why would you want the quarters to break off? They should not be long enough to break off. The hoof has to land heel first, the bars are passive at first, if the bars are hitting same time as the quarters, that will push the quarters out too. The bars take impact too, but it follows a distinct order of operations, as does the sole. Man, I wish I could remember some of the good articles I've read on hoof function, it helps to understand that. Maybe if I live to be 100 I'll get it, but...well, it's complicated.
And how would shoes help? Where will they be nailed on those thin walls? And how does the hoof expand with iron on it? AHA, yup, the barefoot folks got that in my brain but good, lol!
Phew, my BP is starting to go up here, better quit! 
Good luck. Keep reading those hoof articles!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 10:29 pm:
I just wish I could take better pics.
I will try tomorrow again after he has had some bute. Although I have to add I sat and watched him tonight from the deck...before bute, and it actually looks like it is his back hooves that are bothering him. The pulses in the front are greatly diminished and the heat is gone. The backs still have a pretty good pulse. He had some major flaring going on in them also....not at the toe at the heel and the farrier took them off. I will have to examine the rears tomorrow, as I'm fairly convinced now that they may be the sore ones.
He keeps lifting the left rear and resting it, way more than normal. He is slightly off in front too, but I think better than before his trim (in front).
I don't know why his walls have become so thin, one thing he use to have was a good thick wall if nothing else, but even with the thin walls he never looses a shoe. I wonder if it isn't the wet conditions, does that thin the wall? I know it can weaken it.
I will not read any more hoof articles, talk about confusing. I think I have read every article available (a couple of times). There are just too many opinions some make sense, some don't. One conclusion I have come to is every horse is different, what works for one don't always work for the other. Just got to keep on trying to find the "comfort zone"
Thanks Again
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 10:29 pm:
Diane,
I feel your pain. We are in our rainy season now and when it rains at night I have nightmares about feet. My 2 mares are barefoot and the other 4 I care take have shoes either on all four or just the fronts.
Are you using anything to counter the wet weather? I swear by Keratex. I use it religiously both the gel and the hoof hardner and I have had no problems with my mares' feet in the past 1.5 years. I do their feet 2x a day and always after a ride. I still ride Anuhea in boots because of the rocks in our pasture.
Angie, your information is right on. I hope someday to be brave enough to trim my horses' feet myself. I am good at telling the farrier what I want, but can't seem to do it myself.
It very sad to see the farrier struggle every 5 weeks with finding a good part of the hoof wall to nail on Polu and then his feet still look like crap. I've said my piece and my mares are proof - nothing else I can do. Take care. Leilani
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 10:33 pm:
Thanks Leilani, I will look into the Keratex, I have read good things about it. The rain and mud are a nightmare I wish it would stop, I think that would help things along a little better.
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 10:55 pm:
Diane,
Purchase the Keratex directly from Keratex. Their prices are the best and the they don't try to make money off of the shipping.
Rain, it's what make my pastures green and lush, but also causes havoc with my horses' feet. We tend to get about 65" a year. I dread the rainy season, but keep it to myself. Leilani
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 9:54 am:
Diane,
Boy, talk about frustrating troubles, huh?
Have you tried equine massage? Last fall when I wasn't sure if my trimming was causing Cody discomfort, or if he had hurt himself when I saw him "bobble" his ankle in the pasture, I spent months after agonizing over my trimming of his hind feet. I knew I had gotten the heels too low, but it seemed only one foot/leg was bothering him so I didn't make sense.
I ordered the DVD called Equine Massage for Performance Horses by Jim Masterson. The first time I tried it, and just the first part of it, Cody stopped resting that leg! In fact, he sooo loved what I was doing it made me cry! It made such a difference I couldn't believe it. I only wish someone had filmed it!
FYI, it was something in his shoulder/wither area that stopped his discomfort. So if you once know if it's his feet or not, causing problems, then you can move to other areas. But HOOVES MUST BE IN THE BEST SHAPE POSSIBLE or the other things, like massage or chiro, won't solve the problem.
So if you are leary of tweaking his hoofs, and nothing wrong with that; you know yourself best, you can do massage and it will only help. You cannot do it "wrong" and mess up anything!
A helpful aid to the dvd is the little book called "Beating Muscle Injuries for Horses" by Jack Meagher. I found that the combo of the 2 helped me do the massage. I also made lots of copies of an outline of a horse and put notes on there as I went through the DVD, and put the papers in plastic sleeves to refer to as I was doing the massage. My horses are used to me having "notes" as I work around them, I think they think I am the real geek type, lol!!!
One last note, my friend would look at photos if you send me some. She would advise, and probably take the time to mark up some of the photos. She won't at this time though, take you on as a long distance client as you are not interested in trimming yourself at this point anyhow.
I hope you will consider getting some new photos and emailing them to me. At least then you will know if he is being trimmed the best possible under the conditions. Any Ya Hoo can got to farrier school and start trimming, but not all of them are the best at it. Speaking from experience, had one that always left the horses "ouchie" afterwards.
One last thing, I think my old farrier moved to your state...if I can find out where, I'll let you know. He wasn't going to trim any more, but I know if asked he'd probably at least look and advise.
Give Hank a big hug from me and my herd!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 10:14 am:
Thanks Angie, I do massage Hank...don't know if I do it right or not, but boy he loves it. He lets it all hang out and follows me around everywhere after...he is a strange beast.
The farrier I have now is not the best, but he is trying his heart out with this horse! And very open to suggestions. He actually has brought him a long way from where he started, I think this last tidbit of getting rid of the stretched WL is going to be the problem, he does not like to take him as short as he did, he knows short = lame on Hank, but if we don't get that WL tightened up there will NEVER be any improvement and obviously the conservative route isn't working.
On a good note he seemed better today, but it rained the ground is soft and I have been giving him bute, I just saw him canter up the hill in the pasture. I am going to continue with the bute for a couple days and see what happens when removed.
I Will TRY very hard to get some good pics, but don't hold your breath. I could use some guidance now and would appreciate your hoof gurus input. Thanks
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 12:49 pm:
Boy, I hope you and Angie will keep everything on this thread regarding the hoof guru's comments, etc. so we can all follow along and learn. Please don't "go dark" and leave us wondering how the boy is doing. Hank is really a puzzle and those are the horses that teach us the most! Some comfort huh Diane? Anxious to see what she says and to see your pictures. I guess you need to add a photo studio to your wish list!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 1:45 pm:
Great Diane,
I was hoping you say you'd let my "guru" comment. I have no clue why this woman offered to help me, but she's been a GodSend for me. She even made a video clip for me to show what she kept trying to explain to me! There are different terms used by different trimmers, so it can be confusing when for example one says to "scoop to bring the heel point back."
When I take photos, I have my horse(s) in cross ties, and actually lay on the floor to get the shots of front, and back of hoofs when standing square. Camera must be on level surface on floor! Also will need a whole body shot of at least one side view to see how he's standing and hoof/shoulder angle.
Please remember to mark each hoof on the bottom with the RF, LF, etc. BIG BLUE "L" on one side of the sole, and BIG BLUE "F" on the other side of the sole, for example! I take the first picture of the bottom to show the labeled foot. Usually with the foot sitting on my Hoof-It. Then I hold the leg at the cannon bone to let the hoof hang naturally and take another, followed by one with the hoof held so I can get that important shot of the heels, bars and show if they are level. On that photo, you should barely see the sole as you are looking STRAIGHT down the foot from the heel.
If you get a body shot, and front, rear, and at least one front foot and one hind with the different "poses" of the hoof, that would be o.k. for now.
The better the pictures, the easier it is to see potentional trouble. I know I am being a pain here, but I know there is nothing more frustrating than laying on the floor, taking all kinds of pics, only to find they are blurry, or don't show what needs to be shown! And hoofs must be clean too!!!
Now you all know why I don't have time to ride anymore, I am rasping & snapping pictures every time I am in barn!
So try hard to get them, I want to know also what advice she has. And she says she learns from each horse too, so it's a win win situation.
My email is above somewheres.
Need to get back to drugery work here now.
Oh, I asked my hoof friend to join HA, but she declined.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 2:55 pm:
Cross ties, cement, good lighting, CLEAN hooves, level ground?
No wonder I can't take good pics I have none of this! Our driveway is even gravel.
I'll see what I can do tho once it dries up.
Cleaned Hanks hooves out and I still think they look pretty good. I found what looked like an abscess draining in left rear in his frog. That would explain the left rear anyway. Now for the other 3
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 3:49 pm:
A sheet of plywood, a good strong tree or post, sunshine, and a garden hose? Oh, a bucket hung to at a height to keep his head up for the photo shoot, with some grain and big rocks to keep him occupied.
Melting here, don't think I will try to put a fan up in the barn though...WHY? LOL!
(sometimes I think I should sell the horses and buy some fish...)
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 5:50 pm:
https://thehorseshoof.com/blog/podcast/Entries/2008/7/1_Introduction.html
This is a great video of trimming being done with power tools. My hoof gal sent me the link, and said it showed some good things except she thought the bars were left looking "odd". Takes a long time to load, and I got no video until I clicked on podcast.
Hoofs looked nice when he was done! I can just imagine trying to use power tools on my horses. Need to tranq them first, maybe a good stiff drink for me too!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 6:13 pm:
Julie, Angie and any hoof gurus Against my better judgement I went and read those 2 websites (again) Julie posted.
There is some new stuff in there since my last visit and of course I am confused.
In ironhoof it sounds like how the farrier at least tried how to trim Hank. He is a sore little puppy, but a little better at least he held his hoof up pretty good. I took some more pics after visiting those websites, Angie they probably are not good enough for your hoof guru but I tried...really. I was getting buckets of DrOol poured on me, but I hung in there. I think they are better anyway.
Comments please...New Pics.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 6:17 pm:
PS I put betadine on his soles this morning, that's why they are that funky color.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 10:01 pm:
Much better pictures Diane, G double O D, GOOD JOB! LOL! My teenaged daughter says that, it's a basket ball thing.
Of course if you could turn the 3rd and 4th ones that would help a little bit, but hey, I think my friend will be able to see what is what. Just have to tilt our heads, right?
My friend is in Alaska, so she's busier than heck right now with summer time chores; but I think she'll reply within 24 hours. Might take longer is she decides to draw on each hoof like she does for me.
I think the right side looks higher in one picture but as pictures are 2D, it might not be the case. I do wonder about the bulge I see on the side on the first picture. Different than my 16 hoofs I look at!
A full side shot to see how he stands with his 4 legs/feet would be nice yet if you can force yourself to do another picture.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 10:55 pm:
That bulge is weird, it has been there for awhile, it only shows up in some pics, I don't notice it otherwise. (in person) The only thing I can think of is he had a HUGE abscess blow out his coronary band right about there in 2005 I believe, and I wonder if that is the cause.
Will get the side shot tomorrow...Thanks
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 1:12 am:
Diane, I am in awe of your photographic skills! Maybe next photo shoot you could get one showing the pastern/lower leg also? It helps with getting an idea of angles. I've been following all your posts with Hank for the education I'm getting.
Angie - I've always thought of perhaps having earthworms. Fish get fungi, and you are always having to feed them and clean their tanks.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 7:24 am:
Ok OK any other shots before I go out in the mud again?. We had 2in of rain in 2 mins last night AGAIN
Seriously though I DO need to get these hooves correct if possible. I was looking through all of the hoof pics I have and he has come a long way, but more often then not he doesn't seem completely sound. Not terrible (like now), but just a little tiny bit off and it is the hooves.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 7:33 am:
Also, my other 2 horses hooves look GREAT, so I'm pretty sure it's Hanks hooves and not the farrier where the problem lies. Unless his hooves are just to much for him, but that is who I am stuck with and I do like him very much.
The vet just shakes his head when he looks at Hanks hooves and says they are a challenge at the VERY least....but he can't even take an x-ray right so I take that with a grain of salt
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 8:52 am:
Diane,
Here is the feed back from J, my wonderful hoof guru. I just copied and pasted her total reply rather than try to put it into my own words.
Hold on to your hat!
"he is a sore little puppy,but a little better at least he held his foot up pretty good"
Wow! It's ok to be sore as long as he behaves while a farrier sores him ;)
Sorry Ang, I'm a little cynical if I sored a horse it would be all over cyber-space about
those damned Strasser trimmers! ha! A horse who is sore after a trim = NOT OK TRIM-period-
Unless...the horse was sore before trim due to founder, rotation etc.. You always trim to HELP the horse go sound. The trimmer MUST be able to explain why the horse is not comfortable-
Who's trimming him?farrier or barehoof trimmer? (just want to be clear)
Both sets look not so great, but the second set in my opinion are worse- because...whoever trimmed him has cut off too much hoof in all the wrong places namely the vertical height of the toe-
Imagine the LAST picture(the one from the side) if you were to lay the edge of a rasp across at the tip of the frog- so you're laying the rasp up on it's edge across the whole hoof across the tip of the frog...make sense?? you want about 1/4 inch AT LEAST of space, expansion room you know HEIGHT!! this is the space that protects the coffin bone- indicates concavity, sole thickness etc..
Without adequate sole thickness the horse can't walk comfortable- There's noticeable trauma (color) on the sole-Heel height looks ok, as far as I can tell- it's just the hoof needs vertical height-
This horse needs a trimmer who knows how to trim a "Barefoot" trim- A farrier will always take vertical height as that is their training- I don't mean this dis-respectively at all- it's a totally different trim.
Hope this helps
Diane, just to clarify, you say he has thin soles, correct? And he did founder, when? How bad was it? How many times?
PLEASE remember, I am acting as a go between here, and we must all keep in mind that we are looking at pictures, and there are strong opinions out there as to what are the best ways to trim. I think though, this barefoot trimmers view does give one a lot to think about!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 8:58 am:
Sara,
Earthworms is a possibility! Or maybe silkworms? Could I make money off of a pet instead of putting money out all the time?
P.S. Diane,
Not sure if the part about the betadine got sent to my friend, that may by the "bruising" she saw, I'll double check with her.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 9:22 am:
Thanks Angie, I believe she is right, he did take a lot of wall vertically, but it was all stretched out. He was sore before the trim, but not terribly.
He foundered twice. Once in 2005, and last year. He is VERY thin soled. Rotation was approx 8 degrees in both according to vet. And I believe she did see bruising, not the whole sole, but right at the tip by the toe the rest is betadine. UGHHH I imagine that is where the coffin bone is. I noticed it in one of the pics I didn't post, I think the betadine made it more obvious, I didn't see it before applying it. I will show you that pic.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 9:33 am:
Here are his x-rays from 2007 a couple mos. after founder.
Here are x-rays from late April of this year
I don't know if that might help or not.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 10:00 am:
Diane, how often is he trimmed? That toe seems to want to go long to me based also on the fact that he doesn't have a straight line down the front of his hoof ... could be just the way he is, but something to think about maybe? Also looks like he's walking on his soles...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 10:22 am:
Aileen maybe I should just leave his toe long, I don't know. He is trimmed every 5 weeks in the summer, except this mo. the farrier was AWOL.
He really does have a spot between short and long where he is most comfortable, it's a hard spot to find usually when trimming tho. I think he is on his sole at the toe...not good.
I didn't bute him this morning to see how he was REALLY doing and I heard him whinnying, poor thing the other horses had gone out (they are locked up now in dry lot) and he wouldn't come out of the lean-to because he didn't want to walk on the limestone paddock.
Fortunately I am starting to think ahead once in awhile. This winter they had the quick fix hoof wraps with pad on sale so I ordered 2 of them, they have been sitting in the house since...thankfully. I just went out and put them on him and he feels much better. Those wraps are great! I would recommend them to anyone that has a horse with hoof problems to keep them on hand and they are fairly inexpensive.
https://www.hoofwraps.com/
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 10:39 am:
Thanks for the info on the hoofwraps!
I don't think his toe should be left long, at least not with that dip in his hoof. It starts in the middle? Is that what I'm seeing? I do know that is bad. But are his angles are correct?
I'd fix that toe so it doesn't dip by trimming it every three weeks. I asked my farrier to really trim Brave one cycle, then in three weeks just come by and touch up... bring the heels and toes back. Next time full trim. It worked pretty well on Brave. Just my two cents Good luck!
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Member:
melis1
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 11:00 am:
Hi Diane,
I have been trying to learn more about the care of hooves, too. My horses have always been able to go barefoot but now I am beginning to realize that there is so much I don't know.
I recently had to opportunity to see Gene Ovnicek at an expo. Wow, I was very impressed. He is a master farrier who advocates keeping a horse barefoot, if you can. He seems to be up to date with the latest hoof research. His website is: www.hopeforsoundness.com. There is also a forum connected to that site or you can also connect to the forum separately by going to www.horseshoes.com/forum. The forum is for all types of farriers (not just those that "follow" Gene). They have a section for farriers helping horse owners. You might want to post your pics for them to see and evaluate.
With my new and limited knowledge, it looks like your horse is now having to bear most of his weight on his soles instead of sharing the load with the hoof wall. That can certainly cause sore feet, especially if his soles are thin. Poor boy!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 11:11 am:
Thanks Melissa, I have posted on horseshoes before and read the forum often. I seem to get better advice here, usually.
I have also been to hopeforsoundness many times, but should go have a look again, it's been awhile. I just don't understand it all and probably never will..
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 12:03 pm:
Great feedback.. Angie do you know how to make marks on that last photo to explain what your ''hoof guru'' is talking about with the rasp..?
Diane I have a gelding that is a problem too, within 2 weeks of being shod he is out of balance.. it is just the way his hoof grows.. I have him done every 4 weeks due to this problem.. of course he has some sever issues in his hoofs.. right one is a extensor processor fracture / buttress hoof , left is an avulsion fracture of the navicular bone and farrier and I suspect now some ring bone developing.. My boy is 9 years old and this has been on going since 3 for the right and 4 years old for the left... He is serviceably sound to hack around in my soft arena on a gram of bute.. I teach the kids how to ride on him... a wonderful boy .. somedays he comes out and just can't do it.. I give him a good belly rub and thank him and put him back out .. other days he can hack around for 40+ mins with ''hardly'' a limp.. all the time he attitude is GREAT never a swishing tail or ear penned... HE LOVES HIS JOB and is willing to I would say bare thru some discomfort to please.. cus he does have a limp every now and again.. A horse like him is hard to find.. sadly he is not showable but he is my boy.. he is the picture in my profile..
So long winded, your discussion once again is interesting to me ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 12:32 pm:
I agree with the comments about him looking like he's bearing too much weight on his sole. Also, looking at the x-rays, it looks like he may be somewhat out of balance and need more trimmed off one side, but I can't tell how the x-rays are labeled so am not sure which side. But, see how in the x-ray when looking at the bottom of the coffen bone you can see a shadow of the other side of the bone? (am I making myself clear?) The bottom of the bone should look straight across when the x-ray is taken from the side, with no shadow of the other side. A good way to tell about balance for sure is to get an x-ray that shows the two little holes where arteries go in the back of the hoof. (Sorry, I can't think what they are called.) If you go to https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/21/15752.html there is an x-ray of the hoof and you can see these two "holes" above the blue line. On an x-ray you should be able to run a totally straight line between bisecting these two "holes." If you can, the horse is in balance laterally. This is according to a specialist (a vet who only deals with legs and feet)that I took one of our horses to.
Feet are so HARD imo! (another reason to raise earth worms...they don't have feet!)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 12:35 pm:
HOW do you make marks on pics, I have tried it before to mark something I was talking about, but just can't figure it out, I'm wondering if you need a special program?
My computer guru son is going to be here in Aug. I will have to ask him.
Ann I have always admired that pic in your profile, that is one handsome fella. Hank isn't ridden hard anymore and if my arena ever gets done I will be happy to just play around in there with him. I don't have another horse to fall back on, so got to get this guy going in the right direction again.
I wonder if I should just have him shod again, but I remember Dr.O. saying not to shoe a painful horse, but vet and farrier said it was ok, BOY was Dr.O. right Hank wound up way sorer than he he was before the shoes. I had to wait until soreness dissipated then it went well. He has gotten fat again so he is back on a diet, I'm sure that isn't helping anything...the fat
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 12:47 pm:
OK here is a pic from March, he has more hoof wall and was sound at the time, but notice he has that bruise ring at the toe then also. This was about a month before the last x-rays. HOW do we get rid of that bruising, it has to be the major problem anyway. I don't think in this pic he was walking on his soles at all. He was sound If I recall. Is the coffin bone rattling on his sole??? The x-rays don't seem to indicate that a month later.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 1:14 pm:
Diane, you poor girl! You must be so frustrated and overwhelmed. You've made such a heroic effort with Hank so keep in mind how much improvement he's had! Sometimes a setback can almost seem like an insurmountable obstacle. I think and hope this is just a blip on his continued progress and after doing so well it just seems bigger than it is. I think Angie's guru can be of help to all of us trying to understand Hank's issues and appreciate the comments. It has to be good in the long term to be rid of that excess flaring at the toe--did the farrier take it back by rasping from the top or rasping across the bottom? My personal "guru" has told me when I'm looking at weanlings and yearlings as project horses to look at the point of the frog and see if there is some "depth" there that would indicate some sole depth. Personally, I don't think this can be created, it's inherent to each horse and certainly wouldn't let anyone "scoop" it out as some advocate. I think what "J" means is leaving more wall?? I'm not sure how to do that either, but would guess that you use the live sole plane as a guide. Even then, I can see how it would be easy to get Hank too short as his sole is deceiving. Oh boy, what a puzzle. That's the way we learn--the easy horses don't teach us much and they let us get away with way too much! Hang in there, as I know you continue to do, and don't get too discouraged. Hard to see him hurting I know, especially after the investment in dollars, time and emotion.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 1:25 pm:
Diane, I think the bruising has to just slowly grow out if it is deep. I don't think that once the bruise had healed, it hurts anylonger, even though it remains discolored, but am not positive about this.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 1:57 pm:
I don't know how to mark the pictures myself but I'll ask J if she will do that one, and include the latest picture here in that email. I think she might put the pictures in Paint and use that to draw the lines? It's been really, really helpful for my learning experience. Yet, at the same time it was frustrating because it didn't mean to me, what she meant the lines, squiggles and dashes to mean! We had some interesting back and forths before we got it straight!
Diane, I feel your frustration. I want soo bad to talk to my helper in person, but Alaska is .99/min on our cell phones, no deals there! And we don't have a land line either. Just using pictures, reading till your eyes want to fall out of your head, and getting so many different viewpoints..it stinks! And just when I think I've GOT IT, J goes and says: O.K. Angie, see this? You should do this instead...it's not bad but it can be better."
Ignorance can be bliss I tell ya.
About this "scooping" that is a bad word IMO!! I think of the quarters as being "scooped" because from the side they should be a tad above ground level when viewing from the side, with hoof flat on the ground. And that various from horse to horse.
What I needed to "Scoop" was: Lay the hoof knife flat, and pull it back towards the heel. That brings the heel point BACK, but does not (should NOT)lower the heels. Starting where the bars end, mid point on the frog. I think...I was taking any high spots off the bar, the heel, the outer wall, the spot where the bars join the outer wall, etc. Very, very hard to explain, I thought any how, very, very easy to understand once I saw a video clip of it! Yet not easy to do. I know what I have to do, but I still struggle with it. And like most people I have a tendency to leave on side higher on every hoof, being right handed.
Now, others think "scooping" around the frog. Which you can do, after you find the apex of the frog. (Good Lord, am I almost starting to sound like I may know what I am talking about here??? YEE HAW! )
That is really another area that I find complicated because you are taking out some around the frog and the bars. Maybe more of the bars if they are driving the hoof wall fw and you have underrun/underslung, whatever, heels. But to understand what all the bars are, you have to find a wonderful picture of the hoof, a picture showing the hoof cut in half so you can understand where the bars are, and then it gets worse because of where tendons are attached, and oh my, it's over my wee brain by a long shot!
If you can get the video to work I posted above, that area that CAN be taken out is what he does with the little grinder. That is the area some refer to as being "scooped out" and it's dangerous I think, if you don't know how far to go you can cause pain and you should not just automatically take that out either.
Diane,
I think if you kept this really simple for now, and just took Aileen's advice and keep the toe short. I think she meant vertically rasp, and then roll the edges just a little. He is trying to grow that hoof down straighter, and to do that just keep tweaking that toe. VERTICALLY. It will seem like nothing happens and then you will notice a big improvement. DO NOT rasp on the toe at the bottom now. Well, I mean 3 weeks from now.
Now, you just have to be very patient and wait for his hoof to grow, and believe me, they don't grow if you look at them every day, you will go nuts if you do that.
Love the "wraps" what a wonderful idea! What is a good price on a pair? I'd like to have a pair on hand!
I am cleaning out files, and it's very muggy again here, rain predicted. I HATE paper clutter, so this is an interesting way to get side tracked today. And I'm learning too!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 1:58 pm:
Julie you so hit the nail on the head with the problem. More wall= more flaring eventually sore horse. Less wall=sore horse right away.
He rasped the toe from the front, didn't touch the sole at all, but what he rasped off was all stretched away from the sole, it was diseased hoof and really IMO should have been removed. What IS the correct way to do this? That is my puzzle.
Sara maybe that bruising was from this winter he did have a few rough patches when the ground was frozen solid and irregular. The farrier commented that the bruising in his white line was completely gone, which is a first since his founder last year, he also said he saw no signs of WLD or seedy toe this time either. Which is great and a big improvement...too bad he can't walk.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 2:21 pm:
Angie I put the hoof Wraps in the product Reviews. It was funny after I put them on he walked out to the paddock and started stretching his fronts way way out, I thought Cra$ he's falling down and can't walk anymore, but no he was doing one of those big "dog" stretches, so they must have made him feel way better.
I will not watch his hoof grow, but I sure would like to know how to avoid this in the future.
Thanks
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 2:28 pm:
More advice from my "expert"
Need to have a trained person deal with this special case after having rotation.
Need to learn the concepts of BAREFOOT trimming.
Leave the SOLE ALONE. She gave me example of a horse that hasn't had the sole touched for 2 years. All they did was back the toe up, vertically, kept heel point in proper position, and this is the first time in 2 years the horse has been ridden. In boots.
If you put shoes on him you will stop blood flow and cause more problems even if you think you are stopping the lameness. That will be even more serious than what you have now...her opinion.
Fresh water, timothy/grass hay, turnout with a buddy for movement. A good all around supplement, hoof supplement too. What her friend added.
Get the CB parallel, by keeping heel point correct, back up toe vertically, and WAIT. It take 3X as long for sole to grow as the hoof horn.
Now this I don't understand(YET) (see, I told you I am learning from this too)
There is an artery that runs around the bottom of the CB called the circumflex artery-when there is rotation, or when the bone is on it's tip, it pinches the artery and hinders blood flow which hinders sole growth!
And she asked if there was rotation w/out seperation, or rotation w/seperation?
She's going to do a special marked up picture when she can get to it, and then bow out because it's obviously hard to do this this way.
She said, again, study the stuff on barefoothoofcare.com. Get someone knowledgeable to help you hands on, but, (this is from me) learn how to do the "tweaking" yourself. If you start NOW, you will have a rideable horse in what, a year, or 2? If you don't start now, you have long term financial draining pasture pet.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 2:46 pm:
Got a picture showing rasp placement, but it wouldn't post on here, I'll try later. Can't sit here anymore.
She is really stressing that you, Diane, learn this barefoot concept before you even TWEAK...but that would be sooo good for Hank!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 4:37 pm:
Thanks Angie, Well she pretty much said what the farrier did. He DID rasp vertically to back toe up. He did not touch the sole.
Hank was rideable about 6mos. after the founder barefoot with no problems. I rode him about 3 weeks ago barefoot, no problems matter of fact he was rather energetic even on the paved road to get to the hayfield.
He has rotation with separation and there in lies the problem. Keeping the toe back without the separation getting out of hand and not making him sore in the process.
I have no one knowledgeable anywhere even close to here. You guys and Dr.O. are it.
That is why I have never messed with this horses hooves a wrong tweak can mean weeks of soreness.
I will disagree once again about shoes, and he may get some down the road if this doesn't work out.
He is back in drylot with hay and buddies and asfore mentioned stuff.
Angie please tell you friend thank you for taking time for this, I appreciate it very much and you too for helping. I don't blame her for bowing out, the pics of his hoof don't tell the whole story and they really are a special problem. I told the farrier I'd call him as soon as I felt Hank needed a tweaking again, I'd rather he do it than me. At least he has some idea of what he is doing.
Hank can be a pasture pet as long as it takes, he's my man and entertaining at least.
Thanks Again
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 5:22 pm:
Diane I know that my gelding could not go without shoes.. the shoes / pads / wedges every 4 weeks is what is keeping him serviceably sound .. even his hind hoof is a problem.. an old scar down the side of his leg thru the cornet down the hoof wall leaves a weak spot on that side 
And like you , my boy is with me for life.. He brings me so much enjoyment in just watching interact with other horses and ME...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 6:13 pm:
Diane,
You are most welcome. I'll thank J for you too. We all do this because we love these horses of ours! Why else would I lay on the floor to take pictures, rasp my fingers, end up with cut up hands (I wear gloves, but have some bare digits, hahaha) The blood, sweat, tears, and the hoof smells, ick! LOL! And the bump on my head from banging my head against the wall when it don't make sense!
Please post as you see progress.
Keep reading those hoof sites, it will start to make sense and you will be asking your trim guy "WHY are you doing that, is that because...." "What about the way Jamie, or Pete or whoever, does this, do you agree, why or why not?" Study BARS...study rasping the toe vertically...No, don't head to the bar!
And keep a good record with pictures. When you are discouraged, look at them. Hank has made progress! I do believe he can be sound 100% of the time, someone just has to figure out his comfort zone.
Take care,
Patience, patience, patience!!!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 6:22 pm:
Diane - just to let you know, I feel for you. I was so happy when you could ride Hank again, and now you are having troubles - hopefully temporary.
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 6:52 pm:
Thank you everyone for your help and support, Hank moved around all day even on the limestone with his Wraps. I took them off tonight when I fed for fear of the sole sweating and getting wet and soft...which it was. I gave him some bute at supper, he is again whinnying at his friends in the dry lot because he doesn't want to walk on the hard ground and stays in the bedded lean-to. I hope he isn't foundering again. This is just heartbreaking he has been doing so very good. I hate it when he is in pain like that. Maybe I will go put a diaper on his hoof for moisture control and put the wraps back on. Better order another pair of them.
I will keep you updated as to his progress hopefully in a few days he will be better
Thanks again
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 7:18 pm:
Hi all, I have been reading this and perhaps even in my ignorance I might be able to help.
I see Angie trying to explain the VERTICAL rasping so I drew a little picture that I hope will help demonstrate:
The top hoof is an exaggerated version of how Hank's toe appears in the photos. The bottom one is how it should look with the toe flare removed vertically. The pink is the sole which appears to be lower than the hoof wall to me. He shouldn't be walking on the sole.
Does that help you to visualize what vertical rasping can do?
Now as for the heels/bars...get yourself another doodler...I'm lost there! LOL!
Good luck!
Erika
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 7:44 pm:
LOL Erika Thanks for the Doodling YES that does help VERY MUCH, I have always been more a visual than a verbal person as far as understanding things.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 9:06 pm:
ahhhh yes , of course that is vertical rasping..
Sorry my stick figure drawings are not very good.. <)__~
/\ /\
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 10:14 pm:
Untrimmed hoof looking at toe height.jpg
This is what she meant by laying the rasp across the hoof..see how much space there is at the tip of the frog?
Here's her words:
pict- of an untrimmed (lets make that clear ) hoof-
If folks want to stay tuned this horse will be trimmed later and I'll take the pict again trimmed
so they can see how toe height is kept
this is a hind hoof- Trimmed 6-8 weeks ago! I know that's bad!!
but mine are always last to be trimmed
This pict is not intended to be an example for anyone to follow!! only to see what I meant by laying the rasp on the hoof to determine some vertical height- hind hooves should have more than a front hoof due to the shape of the coffin bone being more vaulted on the hind because the hind hooves are used for propulsion- front end loads more weight therefore is not as vaulted-
Please reinterate this is only one small tool in a tool box that is huge when dealing w/hooves and many hoof problems
Also..."ugly" hooves don't always mean "bad" this horse is 100% sound on any terrain, any time, and always has been- NEVER has had a hoof problem in his 26 years of life
Hoof function over hoof form
Diane,
J can help find a trimmer for you if you want to let me know exactly where you are. I think you are in IL?
Erika,
Very good!! You are such a multi talented woman, lol!!
Are you sure you won't tackle the bars??
We are all such a smart dedicated bunch here on HA!
Maybe DrO should have some contests:
Most talented artist,
Person who posts most useless chatter,
Most interesting question/pictures,
Most frustrated?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 10:41 pm:
Look at a radar pic and where the heavy rain is on the radar....any day... that is where I live in Il.
I really can't give up my farrier, I like him and except for this last trimming he has done a good job keeping this "special" hoof mostly sound. That is not easy given all Hanks problems.
The missing picture here I think is the before the trim picture, he had a mess to work with, and I told him I wanted that toe back....this is probably my fault, though we did discuss it 1st.
My other 2 horses hooves are very good, never a problem, the old mare at 28 ish has never worn a shoe. The old Arab geldings hooves are wonderful. Then there's Hank. I guess we all have to have a "problem child"
When I fed around 5, I gave Hank 1 gram bute, he didn't have any this morning. Right before dark I went out to check him, and he was in the drylot walking around VERY GOOD without the wraps, From experience 1 gram of bute doesn't touch his pain when terribly sore.
So maybe this is going to pass fairly quickly with any luck.
I certainly have learned a lot regardless, I just hope he is walking as good in the morning when the bute has wore off.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 21, 2008 - 7:22 am:
DianeE,
In cases where there is a stretched white line I rasp the toe back to where the toe wall would be if not stretched. No this does not result in cracking if the hoof balanced well.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 21, 2008 - 7:02 pm:
Thanks DrO. It still looks to me like that's what the farrier did and he desperately needed it, I was getting sick of looking at that 1/2 in. woody diseased white line, figured it couldn't be good for much except trapping dirt.
Would you expect a horse to be sore when removing that much?
Hank is Much Much better tonight (no bute), I took him for a walk and he willingly trotted in the yard next to me. I also took him across the hard paved road, and actually he looked pretty good, still NQR, but not shuffling and resistant.
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 - 7:33 am:
Removing disease wall from the front of the hoof is not painful but decreasing wall support of the sole might.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 - 8:05 am:
DrO. the part I don't understand is if you remove this diseased wall/ white line, is it even possible to leave enough for support? I don't quite understand how that is physically possible.
I took away bute for 24 hrs. and he is still pretty sore. The bute seems like it may be a double edged sword also.
I believe I am going to put a wide web shoe back on him, since he is still sore, would that be a mistake at this point? Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 24, 2008 - 8:59 am:
Many horses have enough wall support in the quarters and/or tough enough soles toe that they do not become lame when the undermined horn at the toe is removed. Those that don't can be protected with shoes and pads.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 24, 2008 - 5:58 pm:
Dr.O. one more question and I think I will have it figured out.
Last year when I had Hank shod in shoes and equipak his feet looked very good because the farrier was able to keep the diseased wall and white line in check without making him sore. Winter came and he was barefoot, but the farrier could not get aggressive as he did in the pics above (which I still think was needed)). We made it through the winter ok, but his separation got out of hand again.
Question. Would it take a whole hooves growth of keeping the toe back, and correct trimming before it will stay tight? In other words due to his ouchiness with barefoot farrier can not get aggressive enough. So a whole hoof cycle of "corrective shoeing" SHOULD do it?
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 24, 2008 - 11:02 pm:
Hey Diane, just a thought, as I am almost always in the same boat as you are with Levi. Why not allow him to wear the corrective shoeing, at least during the riding time of the year, and give him a break over the winter barefoot? Can you do that or not? That way you could spend some time enjoying riding him this fall. That is my plan with Levi. So far he is doing OK, but if we find anymore problems, I am holding off till winter to do any resecting again. I have resigned myself to never ending feet problems, and will do what I can to keep him and me happy
suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 25, 2008 - 7:54 am:
Hi Susan, that is what I did last year, and through the winter his separation got worse. For the simple fact he would get sore if toe was kept back. It really is a catch 22. If it wasn't for the terrible winter weather and the fact the whole pasture is a hill, I would keep him shod. I guess if it is necessary it would be possible, but not real easy.
He was doing very good until this last trimming, but his White line was very stretched, I really don't know how to handle it and get his hooves in "order" Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 26, 2008 - 8:04 am:
Called the farrier, he agrees if Hank is still sore after a week shoes would be a good idea. Don't want his soles to bruise. He is still quite sore on hard ground, ok on soft ground, but still NQR.
Farrier thought we could get away without putting the equi-pak in. He is coming Tues. afternoon unless he has a miraculous recovery between now and then.
Dr.O. do you think pads necessary?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 - 8:00 am:
Usually it takes about 2/3rds to 3/4 of a whole hoof cycle to get the most amount of improvement as in all but severe cases the white line which is first formed at the coronet, is normal when formed and stays that way for a while.
Pads will have to be decide by someone who can examine the horse DianeE.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 28, 2008 - 7:05 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. Hank seems to have had that miraculous recovery. His pulses and heat are gone. He gallops out in pasture, his stride is not short on the limestone paddock anymore. He DOES trip up on gravel a bit, but so do a lot of horses so I am not going to let that concern me.
I called the farrier and cancelled the shoes for tomorrow and had a rather lengthy discussion on how do we keep that toe back yet, not lame the poor guy so bad.
He said good question. I suggested rasping on them every few weeks, that I would call him when I thought he needed it. He said that would be fine and probably a good idea.
After thinking about this, how do I determine it's time to "knock the toe back"?? I am going to watch the farrier closely a couple times and then take over these in between raspings I think.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 3:22 pm:
OK just wanted to post the pics after his shoeing, actually I think he is about 3 weeks past the last shoeing. He has been 100% since he was shod with a wide web shoe, and I think his hoof has improved too. I know a lot of you advocate barefoot...and I am all FOR IT...when possible. Hanks dramatic turn around, shows me shoes are necessary sometimes. An hour after the shoes his pulse was non-existent. I am fairly certain he didn't founder, but you can see the ridge in his hoof, when I think his inflammation from bruising started.
I think his feet look much better???
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 31, 2008 - 4:03 pm:
His feet look SO much better, Diane. Best of all, he is sound! That's what counts. Good job!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 19, 2008 - 7:07 pm:
Dr.O and hoof gurus, Hank had his shoes pulled yesterday, he was due and I can't ride right now since my accident, so decided to try barefoot again. He was 100% sound with his shoes on all types of ground.
I walked him around after the shoes were pulled, farrier also trimmed him but lightly and didn't touch the sole. He looked a little short on hard ground but other than that he seemed fine last night.
This morning he was acting VERY sore and could hardly walk on any type of ground, but looked horrible in the hard paddock. I checked for pulses and heat and found a tiny pulse in rt front and left rear...no heat.
I came home at noon to check him and he was still terribly sore, no heat or pulse...that was alarming anyway. I usually let them out in the afternoon to graze for a couple hours, it took Hank a long time to make it to the gate, he would throw his head and walk "wobbly"...no limp so to speak.
I went out this evening and called them up for "supper" Hank came galloping up and trotted right through the hard paddock...(he is a pig, but pain wins over food).
I was checking his hooves for pulse and heat and saw this, his rt. front had some kind of drainage. I had been checking his feet all day and that wasn't there earlier. The wet around his nail holes is from betadine I put in them last night
I can't find an exit wound for a gravel, but can you always find one??? could this have been the problem?
Here is some more pics of his rt front hoof, I couldn't find anything in the bottom either. Unfortunately I had already added bute to his rations, not knowing he was so much better.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 20, 2008 - 10:06 am:
Diane, I am not sure what you are looking at and since you don't see a place the liquid is coming from why could this not be a wet spot from the pasture? Your post suggests all around foot soreness and not lameness from a hoof infection.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 20, 2008 - 10:34 am:
Dr.O. I thought is was hoof soreness too, but due to how big of a difference there was in his "soundness" after the "wet spot" showed up it just made sense. He didn't have any bute in him at the time. This morning he still looks good and the wet spot is still there....in the same place. The pasture is small, VERY short and dry, we haven't had rain for a week.
The wet spot felt a little slimy last night like pus or something. I examined the spot a little closer this morning and it's really hard to tell, but there MAY be a small slit there. He doesn't like it when I press on it.
Also what is strange, further up in this post in the picture of his rt. front you can see a bulge there. Angie had commented on it, I thought is was from his BIG gravel he had a few years ago, but looking through his records that was on his left front, I wonder if it has something to do with it. It seems to coincide with the wet spot.
Here's a pic of it so you don't have to search for it. That "bulge" or line has been there for awhile.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 20, 2008 - 2:08 pm:
Hmmmm.......That is different. Seems like a flare, and I don't think the drainage is related, he may have just gotten a sliver in near his coronet band.
My barely there education says he is still not trimmed correctly. He stands under himself, and see how his coronet band goes up at the quarters?
Have you ever watched the "trimcast" video clip? If not, google that and watch it. Ignore the power tools part of it.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 20, 2008 - 2:38 pm:
Angie the farrier just did a little rasping, we wanted to make sure he wouldn't get extremely sore after his shoes were removed. It is so odd that he was practically immobile and recovered SO fast, an abscess is the only thing I could think of. I guess I'll know when his hoof starts growing down if that's what it was. Regardless ugly hooves and all he is very sound today, which is good!!!
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 4:00 am:
Diane, Margot had the horrible ouchy feet a few times after being trimmed she has very flat feet and the Dutch farrier obviously was to enthusiastic.She could barely walk! It scared me because this is a horse you need to break a leg before she shows any pain. Next day she was fine again. Happened perhaps three times. She had an abcess once and though barely walking to that looked a lot different when she stood still.
So his feet could have been sore?
Jos
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 6:15 am:
Anything is possible with Hank, but I have never seen him go from dead lame to sound in a few hours when he was THAT sore from a trim. Stranger things have happened I guess.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 21, 2008 - 6:22 am:
I think he feels that with calving nearly over you need some added worries to stay in form
Jos
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Member:
maribeth
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Posted on Friday, Aug 14, 2009 - 6:48 am:
My horse Jags suffered a hoof injury and has a large vertical crack all the way to the coronet band. This is a 10 yr old injury and his hooves have always needed a lot of attention eg. supplements etc. I have him trimmed regularly but with this dry Michigan weather his hooves are in terrible shape and it seemed like within a week they have flaired, chipped, he has a large piece in the front of the hoof that broke off about 2 - 3 inches up. Can't get a hold of my farrier do you think putting easy boots on him him temporarily to protect that hoof until he can get the attention he needs would help? It is the worse I've every seen him. I've started him back on supplements and hoof dressings. Yes, I should have been on top of it sooner! He is traveling ok on it but doesn't want me handling that hoof so there may be some sensitivity.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Aug 14, 2009 - 9:01 am:
Maribeth,
Two things come to my mind: If he is chipping and flaring, his outer walls need more beveling. And yes, protection would be a good idea if you have teh boots.
BTW, starting your own discussion would be best, and if you could include some pictures too.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Aug 14, 2009 - 10:13 am:
Hi Maribeth,
Have you considered the posibility of white line disease? That can cause pieces of hoof wall to break away IME.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 16, 2009 - 3:28 pm:
Hello Maribeth,
Let me help you get started off right with your question there are several advantages to you if discussions are kept separate: - there is no confusion about which question is being discussed
- it will help keep Horseadvice more organized
- you review the Article and "ALL" the existing discussions
- more folks are likely to see your post and so you will receive quicker and more responses
You will find the "Start New Discussion" button at the bottom of the "List of Discussions ". This list is on the parent page to this discussion along with an "Article".
Getting there is easy, for example on this page: - Scroll to the top of this frame where you will find a navigation bar.
- Click on the "parent page" link. The parent page is the page immediately preceding the title for this discussion.
However there is a article and list of discussions that may be more germane to your problem at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Wall Cracks and Thin Sensitive Soles.
Before posting you should review the article as you will find helpful information. If it does not answer your question and you don't see a related discussion that answers your question you should "Start a New Discussion" with your question. For more on this and other important information see Help & Information on Using This Site » Welcome to The Horseman's Advisor.
Thanks for helping us stay organized.
DrO
PS, by copying your post you can easily paste it into a new discussion.
PPS, many members prefer not to display there full name in their posts. You can edit this in your profile to display your chosen moniker.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 1:13 am:
Thank you girls for the Ramey website/articles - it put a light on my problem. Persistent hoof crack after injury - and it wouldn't heel . It is a wealth of knowledge in that W site !.
Now I would like to try the LYSOL concentrate treatment . As after the crack is not growing out (already 8 month old injury), I suspect fungus/bacteria in the hoof .
Please . what is Lysol and where can I get it ?
Cannot sent you the picture as we do not succeed sending it. Does any of you have Apple computer. And i Photo ? We cannot transfer from i photo to this posting window---only can E Mail from Iphoto directly to an E-mail address.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 5:06 am:
Fame, I have an Apple. You can click and drag the photo from iphoto to your desktop, and then load it from there when the "browse" menu comes up. Click "desktop" and click the picture icon, then "select" in the lower right corner.
Lysol is a disinfectant that advertises that it kills germs. In the US it can be found anywhere--groceries, hardware stores, etc.
Erika
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 29, 2009 - 6:43 am:
Erika thank you---I get to the point of "select" or "choose"and the photo appears in the window on the top left where I have entered the description of the photo and when I press upload attachment, nothing further happens. Your advice ends with "select" How do you proceed after that?
Lysol - I have now the ingredients and must try to find it here in Portugal/Europe . I shall look in local stores for disinfectant of the same composition .
In the mean time I've used betodine . And will mix paste of Neosporin and antifungus cream and siring it into the crack .
I hope we will sort this picture sending out . Thank you very much for your help.
Fame.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 29, 2009 - 7:01 am:
I meant "choose", not "select". Sorry. Then the little window will pop up that has a button that says "upload" and it should go to the posting window after clicking there.
Hope that works.
Erika
BTW_ you might want to start a new thread for your question. This one is HUGE and many people will not load it if they have slow connections. Bet you'd get more responses that way.
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