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Discussion on Overall managemant for horse with additional complications from absecesses/founder
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New Member:
alisa
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 24, 2008 - 1:06 pm:
Hello, this is my first post and the main reason for my joining you all at this time. If you look at my profile you will find that I have just a few years experience (i.e. not much). I have 6 horses, 5 are in very good form but one - Kid - is having ongoing difficulties, it is a long story.
I was boarding at a stable and the owner suggested that we co-own certain horses for profit. I would buy them and she would do the support. We did this with three horses - one of them was Kid. Kid was a halter horse winning #4 in 2004 Quarter Horse World Show and #5 in 2005. He was purchased for breeding purposes and this was about two years ago when I believe he was approximately 4.5 yo.
He was a very big and intimadating horse and the stable owner didn't want me to walk him and only had a very few handle him at all. He was let out of his stall to excersize less than I thought appropriate - he was a big, energentic guy. Long story short - there was not any stud fees and the owner said I could have him (more to this, but).
I had him gelded in March 08 moved him to another ranch (nearer to my current home) along with all my other horses - all in April 08 (they were all moved at that time to the new ranch I mean). The vet at this first ranch did a coggins and overall check on Kid since he would be moved from Minnesota to Wisconsin.
I had him put into training at this new ranch for many reasons. I wanted to have him be able to be used as a riding horse, I wanted to tone down his "exuberance" and intergrate him into a herd, something he was not experinced with.
The trainer was good in that Kid was coming along and was good in his training. Unfortunately the trainer too was pushing Kid too fast and some real errors occured in the course of it all.
Here are the pertainant facts as I see them - and the issues that I have today with Kid.
Before bringing him to the new ranch for training/living I had noticed that Kids feet were long in the toe and heels low (I was told this is how show horses were trimmed). While the owner of the old stables had the responcibilities for trimming etc - this problem, if addressed at all, was never corrected.
When in training at the new ranch, he had the following incidents occur -
While ponying him, the trainer lost grip of the lead while galloping and Kid when released got tangled in barb wire cutting him up etc - but not too seriously.
The trainer continued to ride Kid when he suspected that Kid might be going lame. This period was about a week I believe.
First week of June, the trainer, without asking me first, put Kid in a smaller corral - the one he works his horses in, overnight with another horse. Here is what I know: in the early morning (approx 4am) the trainer observed the other horse chasing Kid around the corral. At 7am the trainers wife came out and saw the corral (a heavy lumber corral - using tree trunks about 7 ft tall) broken open. The horse that was chasing Kid had a gaping wound on his side - likely Kid bite him. Kid was standing in the corral with cuts. A vet was called to sew up the other horse and he did a visual - from over the fence, of Kid. Later that day I came out and intended to walk Kid, I found him barely able to move. He was in a pen at the time - I was told the above, and we quickly moved him to a small pasture (by trailer) ajacent to my other horses pastures. I called the vet to review Kids situation. Kid had burst an abcess through the corinary band, right front, it was a very serious situation where a discussion of his sloghing his hoof was possible. He had another hoof cut on his left rear - not as serious and various scrapes etc. The plan was to soak Kids hoof two times per day with water and ebsom salts and put a antibactrial gel on his open hoof
wound. He also was developing proud flesh on the sole of his hoof from an attempt at draining an abscess earlier in his training by the trainer who also does farrier work. The vet had me put a powder on this each evening, after a soak and wrap up the hoof. The bandage was taken off in the mornings - eventually we needed to use a more powerful powder to stop the proud flesh growth - and it worked. The sole, as a result, is a little strange looking right now but is workable. His hoof has had part of it's wall come off but new hoof is growing in at the same time. The vet has been out many times in the course of this and done most of the hoof work himself. The hoof is improving, that is, he can put weight on the foot and slowly Kid is moving along. Also, the rear hoof that had a cut as well did also drain along the corinary band, I soaked it too and kept it clean and it looks like the issue is over with that now.
I have intergrated him with two of my other horses (did that mid-July) and they are all doing well together.
Third week of July, Kid was observed laying a lot and so I called the Vet in again - it appeared he had a case of Scratches on one rear hoof, which we treated and has resolved. Still, he didn't seem to be improving, ever so slowly, as he had previously. The vet said maybe we should have him xrayed. I haven't yet but believe I will.
Two weeks ago I called in a Natural Hoof person who found that his other front foot when she cleaned it with a pick started to bleed in the frog area. I was shocked and embarresed, I must not have been cleaning it well enough. She saw what she discribed as a fungal infection, not thrush because it didn't smell. Also the blood while not a lot (at all) didn't appear to have any pus. She believed that Kids overall immune system had been broken down by all this trauma, believed he foundered and was opportune to all kind of infections as a result. I believe this is true. In the course of all this he has also lost a lot of weight - maybe up to two hundred pounds is my guess (vet looked at his teeth - they're fine, and Kid is wormed regularly).
Here is what she recommended: Probiotics (Fastrack), kelp, calcium/phospherous 1:1, tea tree oil on his soles, collidial silver water, organic trace mineral salt block. I bought all this stuff but in fact here is what I am doing after discussing this with the vet:
He has free pasture and free choice alfalfa hay, I am using Farnams Weight Builder, the Fastrack, tree oil on his soles, collidial silver water (two caps in his feed mix), oats (2 lb) and beet pulp (1 lb), biotin, all soaked together, free access to the mineral block. I am now soaking his other front foot (fungus, blood) in water with ebsom salts.
He seems to be, once again, slowly improving.
He is a sweet, upbeat horse who walks on his front feet extremely gingerly and stiffly. He and I have become extremely close in all of this effort. Bluntly, I am absolutly crazy in love with him!
So, it's the end of August - I am not entirely sure where all these issues came from and I want to improve him as rapidly as possible, especailly since I live in Wisconsin and want him ready for winter when it comes.
I have been reading this site for about a week - Dr O, many, many of your articles and have taken notes.
As a result this is what I have in mind at this moment: have vet in to get xrays, look that the other (fungel and still seeping blood when cleaned) front foot, have him also scout out any other abscesses on any of Kids feet. Continue with my soaking of that foot, treat all feet with Tree Oil, stay on the feed and supplements I am using.
I wanted to explain all the above as I am not sure what is pertinent to Kids issues, I apoligise for being so long winded but, in truth, I could say a lot more!
Thank you if you have read all this!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 24, 2008 - 1:39 pm:
Alisa, welcome to the site! Wow, you have had a lot of issues to deal with and must feel somewhat overwhelmed. Hang in with us here and we'll try to help with moral support while you sort through all this. Dr. O and his articles will be invaluable to you! I can see why you've fallen in love with this guy--he must be a really tolerant boy. From your history, it sounds as if many of his issues are from mis-management and with some time can be helped. It's a lot to unravel and, as you say, determine what is pertinent. Read the articles on founder, laminitis and hoof trimming as a start and the article on nutrition as the defining guide for feeding. DrO will answer tonight or in the am most likely and help get you started to sort this out. Sounds like this horse is lucky to have you! Again, welcome! Julie
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 24, 2008 - 6:47 pm:
Welcome Alisha,
It is not clear from your post where these issues have come from but I see as the current list of problems with your horse as:
1) Unhealed solar defect with history of proud flesh
2) Wound on the left hind
3) Gravel (abscess popped at the coronet)
4) Unidentified fungal infection of the frog
I do have a question: was the horse lame prior to the gravel draining at the coronet?
DrO
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New Member:
alisa
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 24, 2008 - 7:49 pm:
Thank you both for your interest. I don't know how to reply to each of you individually so,
Julie thank you for your kind words I sure can use them. Bringing all the horses to a new ranch and acclimating them has been a big job. Two other horses had their own problems at the same time this has been going on but they are fine now, I have felt extremely overwhelmed at times but I am determined to help these horses thrive and that, of course, includes Kid.
You are very welcome to root me on anytime.
Dr O, thank you for your quick reply. When the trainer was working with Kid he at one point thought that Kid might be getting lame. He poked inside Kids foot trying to find and drain an abscess. This is the same foot that ultimately the abscess burst out of the coronet.
Yet I suspect that Kid may have had problems even at the previous ranch, but since he wasn't worked and mainly stood in a stall all day he was just not taxed enough to show any lameness. I say this because of how his hoofs were shaped; long toe low heal and because his overall condition collasped so extremely over these incidents I described.
The truth is I really can't say what caused what.
Julie and Dr O, I promise I have been reading and making notes from all of the above articles you recommended Julie.
Alisa
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 24, 2008 - 9:03 pm:
Alisa,
Welcome to HA. I am from Wisconsin also. I board my horse in Ripon. What area are you from?
Sorry, I cannot offer any help with your horse's problems, but I do sympathise. Your boy sounds very special and he is lucky to have you looking out for him. Hang in there, you will get this figured out.
Good luck,
Linda
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 24, 2008 - 9:56 pm:
Hi Alisa, boy can I sympathize with hoof problems!
One thing in your post struck me as odd..you said Kid started laying around a lot, and if I understand you correctly the vet thought it was because of scratches? I could be totally wrong, but I have never heard of a horse being laying down lame from scratches on one leg.
As your farrier said it sounds as if he may have foundered, x-rays would be a good start. They can loose a lot of weight when in pain and it sounds like your boy has had his share of it.
Even though he has lost weight...(is he thin)?? It may be a good idea to keep him that way until you figure out his problem, the less weight on those painful hooves the better (speaking from experience)
Residing not far from WI. I know the pastures have been lush with all the rain. My problem hoof horse can not be on it long with out getting "footy" and sore. Kid is also getting the well known WI. dairy alfalfa hay. I know you are trying to put weight on him, but that sounds like a pretty rich diet for a horse that may have foundered, especially if he was always stalled before and not use to grass.
Is there any possibility you could post picture of him and his hooves? It would help us understand better what you are dealing with.
Good Luck with Kid and I hope you get it figured out, you sound like a very caring owner.
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New Member:
alisa
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 24, 2008 - 11:19 pm:
Hello Diane,
I agree scratches doesn't make much sense to have caused that pain and I bet that he was laying around a lot more from his hoof problems, including the stuff that was going on with the sole of his other foot. I don't have a great deal of experience but I am trying hard to catch up and learn. The vet was just thrilled that Kid still had his hoof (most of it anyway) and was putting weight on it.
You see that is the problem here. We've been focusing on that bad hoof and overlooking other important issues. Issues with other feet, weight loss, immune system compromised.
I want to tackle the whole issue of Kids problems not just that foot. When I called the vet to talk about the natural foot care farriers advice it was then that we began to discuss ways to support Kid. You see I have no experience to draw from regarding how long things take and I can deal with slow improvement if that's how it has to be but when I saw some reversal, just a little bit, I thought more about the bigger picture and what could be done considering that.
Now I feel that additional abscesses are part of the problem and I should have xrays too. And I should give him the best support nutritionally possible.
Which brings us to the alfalfa. Is this something I can or should stop. The pasture and the hay both have some in it, the pasture isn't too lush though and the horses have needed the hay that has been provided. Should I pull all the oats out and only give him beet pulp? Should I slow down in my attempts to give him some more weight. On the scale regarding horses body condition I would say he is a 2.5 to a 3 on the Descriptions of Horse Conditions, adapted from Henneke, 1983.
So Diane you have asked a lot of good questions and suggestions.
I don't have anything current but I will try to get some pictures this week and post them. I do have a picture of Kid in his show days which I will try to upload. Maybe that will be an image to use to help "manifest" him back to better health.
I was out at the ranch 6 or 7 hours yesterday and today doing one thing or another. One thing I did was pile a lot of old hay around the water trough to keep my horses feet from standing in mud that is sometimes there.
I know Kid is feeling a bit better because he is pushier, he sure loves to eat!
Thank you for your concern.
Alisa
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New Member:
alisa
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 24, 2008 - 11:23 pm:
Hello Linda,
I live on the west side of WI, along the Mississippi - I live in Pepin and my horses are boarded about 16 miles away in Alma WI. I don't know where Ripon is. It would be great if it was close.
Alisa
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 6:30 am:
Alisa I don't know the ans. to any of the questions only your vet can help you. We can't diagnose Kid over the internet. Only make suggestions to ask your vet. X-rays would be at the top of my list though, maybe they can help you figure out what is going on and what to treat. IF he has foundered he may need special shoeing or trimming. His diet I don't know, if he is that thin. Dr.O. has articles in here concerning nutrition and putting weight back on, balancing the diet. I have never had to put weight ON a horse! So getting to the bottom of his problems may help guide you on that.
He is a beautiful horse! You don't live to far from me. we live by Dubuque, Ia. and I think there are some pretty good farriers in your area.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 7:31 am:
Alsia, it is not critical that a firm time line be established as long as the diagnosis/treatment is correct. The one odd thing I see in the history is that usually horses are remarkably lame for days before the sub-solar abscess "gravels" out at the top of the coronet. Undrained infections are very painful. When lameness starts with a draining wound at the coronet I often find the cause is direct trauma and occasionally a deeply embedded piece of wood into the coronet and under the wall at the top of the hoof. When present it usually requires careful exploration to find the foreign body because it is so deeply embedded. Often it is not visible in the wound, for more on this see Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Wounds / Burns » Coronary Band Injury.
Otherwise it seems that you have things diagnosed though I am not much on tea tree oil for treating confirmed infections whether bacterial or fungal. There are available more specific therapies with much more evidence of efficacy.
DrO
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New Member:
alisa
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 11:35 am:
Hello all - I am having the vet come out today to do xrays and also check for abscesses and anything that may have been splintered into the hoof. I'm very scared about coffin bone rotation results.... The vet won't be able to give me immediate results, he'll have to go home to process the xrays.
Alisa
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 2:39 pm:
Hi Alisa,
Welcome to HA. Kid is a hottie!! Sorry he and you are going thru so much.
*You probably already know this-- but make sure your vet is an Equine Vet.* It will help when it comes to diagnosing weird horse stuff. Keep us informed how he is doing
Ps You live in a beautiful part of WI...my hubby is from Eau Claire. I almost talked him into moving back, a town called Hudson, but someone on HA mentioned the winter wind and he chickened out! I guess the wind brought up baaad memories LOL so we settled on KY
Leslie
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 8:46 pm:
Thank you everyone for your support.
I have mixed news but really mostly very good. No rotation in either front hoof (if there is it is so minor it can't be identified - good enough for me!!!!)
There is some demineralization of the third phalanx, some lower density at the tip (left front - the bad hoof).
There is no arthritis no foreign objects that can be seen, not chips, no fractures.
When the vet was out I had him do some hoof testing and it looks like I resolved the abscess on the better foot (which is the right) and he was fine with the considerable pressure that the vet applied. When he tried this on the bad hoof (left front) towards the front of his hoof he would flinch. The vet cut away the hoof at that point and found I guess what you would call "seedy toe" I am back to soaking that foot with Epsom salt solution 2x's per day and then actually keeping it wrapped otherwise. I will use the same antibacterial stuff I used at first - sorry I can remember the name - it starts like benz* and is prune colored (likely has iodine in it) gel.
So this accounts for the continuing lameness.
Here is the action plan:
Because Kid is so thin (vet rated Kid a 3 on that scale) he was thinking that Kid has been for most of his life in a very protected environment and so may have not had the opportunity to build the antibodies to fight off the kinds of things other horses who have been pastured for most of their lives have. So he thinks it's possible that Kid may have some nasty parasites, worms, that my worming routine and Kids immune system just isn't strong enough to knock out. So we are first going to do five days of fenbendazole each day - a whole tube each day (scares me).
After that it will be 3 weeks of trimethaphen sulfa 12 pills 2x's per day (along with the 2x's a day soaking and wrapping with benz*). If this doesn't knock out the 3rd phalanx infection the next stage would be to have an orthopedic vet do surgery, cutting out all the diseased bone. I hope we won't have to go that far but now we do have the x-rays and so have a baseline.
I was very scared of dealing with coffin bone rotation so I feel great relief. I haven't had a chance to study up on seedy toe and the vet says it's no walk in the park so I guess when I do study it I will be properly concerned (I am concerned but it's not like the feeling I had, fearing Kids mortality was on a thread).
The vet believes that the hoof problems were caused by trauma so the diet I have him on and Wisconsin’s alfalfa is not of any concern to him.
So, in all, I am pretty damn happy!
Please make any comments, concerns, suggestions, questions, I am still very open to it all - Kid is not out of the woods yet.
Thank you all once again and please continue to cheer me on, offer advice - suggestions, I can use the support, this has been long and hard and isn't over yet.
Alisa
To celebrate I will include another old picture of Kid - I think "Hottie" when I see this one of Kid, Leslie. Too bad you didn't move this way - I fell in love with this area when I first saw it. For 15 years I've had a weekend place here and finally moved out totally in mid Feb this year, I work mostly from home.
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 11:41 pm:
OK it isn't seedy toe, unless pedal osteitis is called seedy toe. From what I'm reading here and what my vet was talking about - Kid does have PO and it likely was caused by trauma - the vet tried to cut back to drain an abscess but only found "bad" "stuff" (I simply can't remember the terms he used) under the horn he carved away. From our discussions later after he looked at the xrays he wants to fight an infection there. So far I haven't found comment on how to proceed with "infectious" PO.
Here are a few more items - he said it was clear that Kid was favoring the inside of his bad hoof and that the demineralization he saw was more on the outside of the coffin bone. Because of the overall trauma that Kid has had to his hoof, most of his original horn - around the outside of the hoof - outside meaning the half that is exposed to the world (?!) has come off. He does have new horn growing in from the coronet, it's about an inch down right now. Even I can see that his hoof is unbalanced and that he stands on the part of his hoof that still is whole, that is, still has the original horn in place. I will have to take a picture to make this clear but his center of gravity is to the inside of his hoof. I bring this up since that is often discussed in commentary about PO. Is the demineralization or pain due to or compounded by the lack of balance - is this a mechanical issue - at least in part?
Still, due to what the vet saw when carving out the hoof front (looking for an abscess) he believes there is an infection involved and wants to try to treat it by a long course of trimethaphen sulfa.
OK given enough time I am now focused on this issue - how to help Kids infection - his PO - his lameness.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 7:57 am:
Hi Alisa, good news about no rotation.
The rest of your post is kind of confusing. I'm not sure but hopefully Dr.O. will correct me if wrong, but I think the only way to rid the coffin bone of infection is debridement.
Is it possible your vet thinks kid has White Line Disease? Your description kind of sounds like it.
What does he suggest to do to improve balance in that hoof? Would shoeing, with a pour in pad help protect the coffin bone from further trauma?
How was it determined he has infection in his coffin bone?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 8:24 am:
This article has a piece on septic P.O. if you are interested
https://www.horseshoes.com/advice/pathology/dunivant2/pedalosteitis.htm
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 8:32 am:
I do find it all a bit confusing you have two draining wounds of the hoof and a wound on the lower leg and we have to reach to what sounds like questionable pedal bone changes for a diagnosis of the cause of lameness? I have not seen the horse so I cannot be certain what is going on but I suspect you get the hoof infections properly treated and the horse will become sound. We discuss the proper treatment of these in the article on foot bruises and abscesses.
DrO
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 10:27 am:
I apologize for the lack of clarity - I guess part of the reason is that I am unclear in some of this myself. The article you gave me a link to Diane is very helpful and I will call the vet and ask some questions based on this. I will ask about white line and also discuss how to balance the hoof. And Dr O, I will re-read the article on foot bruises and abscesses.
But to break down what I know is true now:
There is no drainage from either foot at this time - no known abscesses. No wounds on the lower leg.
The left front was hoof tested and uncomfortable for Kid. The vet opened the area up, no drainage but dead material was found.
Vet reviewed the xrays and found no rotation in either foot. He did see what he felt was some demineralization in the outer front edge of the left front coffin bone.
I will talk to the vet and update you. After reading some more last night I thought Kid may have two different things - maybe white line and PO. Dr O I think your point about curing the infection will make Kid sound and balancing his hoof will help with PO.
I will update later - thanks for the information and again, sorry for the confusion. Sometimes a person is confused enough that they need to be told that they are.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 1:12 pm:
Alisa,
You live directly west of me. I am near Oshkosh.
When I had to soak and wrap my horse's hoof, I used the children's disposable swim pants rather than vet wrap. You can apply a piece of gauze to the wound area, then pull the swim pants over the entire hoof and secure with duct tape. Someone here recommended it and it works. Much easier than wrapping.
Linda
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 5:14 pm:
Thanks Linda for the idea - I also use baby's diapers - I bought a big bag of them when I was soaking Kid before. But I'll check out your recommendation too.
OK I spoke with my vet again about Kids left front hoof. I asked, is it white line, seedy toe or abscess - and he said - it's a little of all of that and the worst case it could be drainage from the P3. He doesn't know exactly himself but he did say that he actually did have some drainage from the toe when he cut back on it, it wasn't just dead material, it was also pus. 
So that hoof does have an abscess that I will be treating to draw out anything else. He want's our guide to be Kids getting better, going sound. If, in a week, it still isn't showing good progress he will come out and dig out more of the hoof.
I asked about how to balance Kids foot, he really doesn't have an answer for that right now - because Kid is missing so much hoof it wouldn't be able to hold a shoe. I can wait a week on this part and talk to others, including you all for ideas on this. I may need a farrier who can "build" a hoof. I think before that happens though it would be good to finish the whole abscess process and possible hoof surgery if needed. This will mean about one months wait to see.
Does this make sense to you? What are your thoughts on all this?
Thanks for your help.
Alisa
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 6:20 pm:
Alisa, sounds like a mess . When Hank was going through his abscess/founder/seedy toe problem boots with pads made him much more comfortable. They have a new boot out I tried with his last lameness issue, you are suppose to be able to medicate with them too. I loved them and have an extra pair on hand now.
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=68799b96-5789-486d-868a-871f3518c 321
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 3:32 pm:
Hey Diane, So you went through this too - sorry about that. I have to go into the Twin Cities 2 days each week and can't access a computer too easily when I'm here so I haven't been able to do the studying on the white line/founder/seedy toe/abscess synDrOme yet... Are you interested in selling the boots you have on hand or?
Thanks for hanging in with me.
Alisa
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 7:44 pm:
Alisa yes I have multiple post in here as long as books about Hanks hooves. You name it he's pretty much had it, although never diagnosed, I suspect mild PO in his rt front also. It's a daily battle but like your horse he is SO worth it. Right now he is shod with a wide web shoe and doing fantastic! But that can change in a moments notice with him. He also has very thin soles, so barefoot is not a good option for him, although I'm hoping he can tolerate it in the winter mos. Last year he did, so we are making progress!
I could NEVER part with my boots . They are a good thing to have on hand with a problem hooved horse, BUT in themselves can cause problems sometimes. The boots I posted above DO NOT cause rubs....which is a biggy in my book. I also don't like leaving them on 24/7 they can cause the hoof to become mushy, and "feed" the bacterial infections. I went with 12hrs. on and 12 hours off. If you are wrapping your horses hooves and leaving it on 24/7 you know what I mean by the "mushiness"!
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 11:02 pm:
Hi Diane -
I just got back from the ranch. My horses were extremely happy to see me - especially Kid who was making big noisy calls to me. I was putting together their food but stopped to watch Kids movements. He is looking a little better - of course still head bobbing lame but he was walking a little less stiffly and faster too.
I had to wrap him with some antibacterial Monday night before I left for two days in the Twin Cities. Now that I'm back I will be proceeding with the program the vet has set for me. When I unwrapped the hoof it looked like the new opening for the abscess did do some draining but not much I think. Anyway I soaked him and re-wrapped with the antibiotic.
I am sorry you've had to go through something like this. You sure have learned a lot - I really appreciate all the help you've given me it has been extremely helpful.
I saw a post from Dr O today - "Almost weekly someone posts about a horse going on to antibiotics for ill defined or worst poorly supported reasons. These posts include diagnosis of foot abscesses".
I have been looking for any advice Dr O might have posted that would reccomend the antibiotics my vet wants me to give Kid. I don't see any.
Dr O are you thinking that the approach my vet is taking - the high and long loading of antibiotics for Kids situation; for a possible (or even to prevent any) bone infection, is this something you wouldn't be doing?
Today I am happy for Kids small but sure improvement.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 - 11:00 pm:
Alissa, we don't know exactly why your vet is putting Kid on antibiotics. All I can say is if it is for an abscess, I have never used them. IF it is to prevent CB infection, I'm not 100% sure but I don't think that works either. I have read up a bit on PO and septic PO and I THINK the only way to get rid of the septic sort is to debride it?
Glad Kid is improving
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Friday, Aug 29, 2008 - 2:23 am:
Hello Diane,
I believe the vet is wanting to try the antibiotics to fight internal infection, to try this before taking the next step which would be surgical. When I saw Dr O's comment this morning I was very concerned but now I am not so much. I found within this site Dr O's use of antibiotics that is used for something similar to what Kid may be dealing with.
Read under Diseases of horse/skin diseases, wounds and swelling/swellings/localized infections/abscess/abscesses and localized Infection/ whew!
I think Dr O's comment earlier was really about what he terms superficial abscesses. I don't think superficial means no big deal but is more descriptive of it's location and spread.
I felt better reading this article because it bridged Dr O's approach with my vets - at least it explained when antibiotics (and which) can and often do come into play.
So why did I happen to find this article? Because I happened to be doing some research on cuts and how to treat them - and that is found on this general area. Why might I be looking? Because when I went to the stables today I found that somehow another horse of mine got cut up in barbed wire... I studied that too and feel like I will be able to take care of that using Dr O's guidence. In order to help my other horse, Dictator (I didn't name him - I call him Tator) I think I will post a picture of him - prior to his cuts.
I don't really mean to make light of Tator's cuts - it really threw me as a matter of fact but I do believe I will be able to help him.
Unfortunately I pasture my horses at a ranch that uses barb wire. In all other ways the place is horses heaven. Three of my horses (including Tator) are pastured in an area that is 3.5 miles in circumference. I know this because I have offset electric fencing inside it and I know how much I used.
I don't own land out here for pasture I wish I could afford it, but can't (and my horses aren't helping me too much in this way right now either...). I have looked at a lot of farms and their pastures around here and they all use barbed wire. So I became an excellent fencer. I just hope (pray) this doesn't become a regular problem.
Anyway the vet is trying to problem solve a way to take care of Kid without surgery and the way we will know if we are going in the right direction is by watching Kids progress. This won't be a long period, just a month and we will see.
My mother, trying to cheer me up, I think, told me about and organization - I think it's called Best Friends - anyway this is a big rescue organization that will do anything they can do to help any kind of animal. She was reading their current magazine and she told me they have a horse with three legs and a prothesis! They say the horse is is comfortable and happy.
! - It's not my plan though!
Thanks again for writing.
Alisa
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 6, 2008 - 10:28 am:
Hi All -
A quick update. Kid is improving, slow but sure - stress on slow. I am soaking both of his front feet in epsom salts because I don't fully trust that the other front foot - the better of the two, is finished with an abscess. I then wrap both feet up with Biozone, baby diapers and duct tape and off he goes. I really look forward to seeing Kid trot around - but he is stepping more lively. He has had his 5 day round of heavy duty dewormer and now is on his antibiotics.
I have a natural hoof farrier who I have started working with - and kinda alternate weeks for them (vet/farrier) to come out and check up on things. She came out last Friday and felt that Kid had a big improvement - and that he has filled in, weight wise, a bit. One thing through-out this process is he never turned food down and now I can only describe him as a lusty eater!
Diane, I ordered two of those boots you recommended - they will be in Monday or Tuesday, I can't wait! I'm really hoping that they will help his comfort and help me in my efforts as well.
My other horse, Dictator, who was cut up by some barb wire is doing well. I am washing his cuts and putting the Tri* (stuff, can't remember the full name - but Dr O recomends it) on it. This horse is such a sweetheart that he is busy grooming me while I attend to his cuts. He is doing extremely well but I am holding off riding him until one particular - deeper cut is a bit better.
I would not say that I am not squeemish - it amazes me what I am willing to deal with to take care of my horses!
I also feel that they understand what I am trying to do - and I really thing they appreciate it. Or, maybe it is the special attention.
I am newer to horses and I have to say that my relationships with them continue to grow and deepen. My horses and I have always had good relations but somehow, a more subtle, deeper, good feeling passes between us - and this really includes all of my horses with me.
Anyway - wanted to update you all and thank you for your help. I will continue to update this post until all is well.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 6, 2008 - 3:00 pm:
Alisa glad to hear Kid is feeling a little better! The boots with the pads made Hank very comfortable, I hope they work as well for you. Thanks for the update
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 9, 2008 - 12:26 am:
Another update - I wrote this weekend that I wished to see Kid trot again - and when I went to the ranch that day, I saw him high up the hill grazing. I called out to him so that he could start making his way down to me - he started trotting down! OK - it was just a few feet and then he remembered - pain, and slowed down to a walk. Still I did see it.
No question he is improving! He is still head bobbing lame but he really does look like he is in less pain - his coat looks great - his attitude is good - maybe too good. I had him out graining him with my other horse Dictator who is also getting a little special care - barb wire cuts (he's healing wonderfully too). Well Kid, my big barge of a horse slowly starts turning his rear in Dictators direction and he was about to give him a good kick! I yelled NO and he stopped, but he was planning to take on the lead horse! I guess that's good news bad news - but it does indicate that Kid is going in the right direction.
We had a period, about a week's time, where he was resisting many of the things I had to do - giving him all the pills (hey Kid it's only 28 more time we'll have to do this...) and my work with cleaning and bandaging his two front feet. He was very stubborn about picking up his better front hoof, very stubborn. We had a talk, I had a cigarette, we tried it a different way and while it isn't the easiest thing to do still, it's getting a little better.
Diane I got the boots in today - frankly I had a difficult time getting on this same stubborn foot - but did finally get it on. It makes me think of beDrOom slippers for a horse. I used the pads and I am sure that he will be more comfortable with these, though I was really getting the hand of diapers and duct tape. Thank you for the recommendation.
Also, sorry about your fall, it is a common occurance with me - I use a helmet as well, which makes me the odd one at this cowboy ranch but I can live with that.
Anyway - I really feel we are gaining ground and that is what I have been praying for.
Alisa
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 9, 2008 - 7:17 am:
Glad to hear things are improving Alisa.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 9, 2008 - 7:34 am:
Improvement is good, no matter how slow it is. It took a long time before Hank became "normal"
Once I got used to putting the boots on and had them the right size, I left the front part together, then all you have to do is slip them on quick and velcro the back...the horse only has to hold the foot up for a few seconds.
Did the boots and pads seem to help? With your good care I'm sure Kid will get better, remember it takes almost a year on average to grow a new hoof! And hopefully the new one is better
I'm on Hanks second "new" hoof and still haven't got it right, but he is sound and that's all I can ask for at this point.
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 10, 2008 - 11:17 pm:
Hi all - another update. Diane, Kid loves his boots! He is walking better then I have seen him walk in a long long time. There is no doubt about it Kid is really improving. And the boots are an added comfort for him.
Dictators cuts are doing extremely well, they have all shrunk.
All this is such a relief!
I have another horse in my pasture, which I call my clinic. It is the ranch owners colt who is in need of TLC and certainly more. When my vet comes out I will have him take a look at Leo as well. Meanwhile he is doing fine in the pasture.
More comments about him will be under the thread I started on wobblers. Just thought I'd give a state of the state here.
I'm feeling really good about it all.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 7:19 am:
Very glad to hear things are looking up, Alisa!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2008 - 8:31 am:
Glad there is progress being made. It is so nice to see a horse who has been hurting get more comfortable. Let us know when he is trotting/cantering comfortable!
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Member:
alisa
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 18, 2008 - 10:10 pm:
Hi again, I have a few new problems with Kids hoofs. Overall he continues to improve, with weight gain, less lame, good attitude and ravenous appetite. Who could complain?
Here are some continuing issues: the vet when last out (monday morning I think) he carved out some of the sole on both of the front hoofs - this is where we found additional - or maybe the source abscesses - on both feet. He suggested that I use a combination of epsom salts and betadine as a poultice and wrap them up. So I did this for a few days and I stopped today.
My questions:
Should I stop, how will I know when to stop?
One hoof when I clean it still bleeds - doesn't smell (never did) this is a moderate flow and I believe when I use the hoof cleaner I am breaking open a thin beginning of a new sole. Like I am scraping open a scab, am I? Should I stop and let it continue to form?
I will have to keep wrapping these hoofs for a long time because it is very sensitive tissue exposed. How long, generally, does it take to get a harder surface that would protect this area?
That's it for now. I figure some of you have experienced this - please let me know what you can.
Thanks - Alisa
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Sep 19, 2008 - 12:22 am:
I treat abscesses just like Dr. O describes in his article. My vet follows that same protocol. I pack (packed in hard)cotton soaked in iodine in the carved out hole and then bandage. This continues until the area cornifies--grows in hard like the wall. Then I continue to pack the hole but go from a bandage to a boot or shoe forged so I can still pack the hole with iodine soaked cotton. I do that until the hole isn't big enough to hold the packing. I've always had mine return to soundness within days--like one or two--with the bandaging and later a shoe. But I've also had success when I used a boot instead of a shoe once the need for bandages was over. Two weeks with a boot and good to go. I would not stop packing and bandaging if your horse is still bleeding or the tissue hasn't grown in hard and insensitive. I suppose the amount of time will depend on how much horn was removed, but I think you're looking at least a couple of weeks of bandaging. Is it clear you're dealing with abscesses?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 19, 2008 - 5:48 am:
I remember once when my arab gelding had an abscess in his rear hoof, my regular vet was out of town so I had to use a vet I didn't know. (wasn't a member of HA then either)
The vet dug the abscess out and I had never seen a hoof bleed like that it actually scared me. The vet put cotton soaked betadine in the hole, wrapped it up good with vet wrap and said when the wrap fell off by itself in a couple days he'd be fine and that's it.
I had a hard time believing that but followed his instructions and he was fine and sound, I didn't dig in the hole, just made sure a rock or something didn't become lodged in there and dumped betadine on it once in awhile until it was gone.
I guess it really depends on how big the hole is, and I don't know if the way that vet treated the abscess was right, but it worked out fine and was probably one of easiest abscesses I have dealt with.
I wondered after that if an abscess is resolved soaking and wrapping would keep the sole soft, so that vet made sense and I have done that since with abscesses with no problems, but better Dr.O. comment on that, maybe I have just been lucky
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 19, 2008 - 8:31 am:
Hello Alisa,
Your questions are answered above but we do have a complete discussion on this at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Hoof Abscesses, Bruises, and Gravels.
DrO
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