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Discussion on SafeChoice .. quality of ingredients?
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 - 2:41 pm:
I am thinking of switching to a single feed that will be good for a wide range of horses and was considering SafeChoice. (Right now in addition to grass hay I feed a mix of omolene 200, dry cob, alfalfa and beet pulp pellets, and rice bran, combined to meet each horse's needs)
However in looking at the ingredients on a bag of SafeChoice the #1 ingredient is wheat middlings. My only familiarity with this is as a waste product used as filler in pet foods or cheap cattle feed.
Another one of the main ingredients was sun-cured alfalfa, which stuck out to me as I just read an article on the difference between sun-cured vs dehydrated alfalfa products, noting that sun-cured is steam-processed after drying at high temperatures, resulting in nutrient loss. I supplement so that shouldn't be an issue, but still...
Another ingredient I see is soybean hulls .. something I'm not familiar with but sounds like a waste product/cattle feed to me.
I also read recently that Nutrena processes their equine feeds in the same facilities that make their cattle feeds.
This all leaves me wondering .. is this stuff really just high priced cattle feed?
I have fed pelleted feeds in the past, and like the fact that they are basically 'pre-chewed' but always had a lingering suspicion of the quality. When I buy a bag of grain I can clearly see what I'm getting, whether it's a clean, high quality product or not. Pelleted feeds could be anything, really, and I would be none the wiser.
One more thing .. SafeChoice has been marketed as a low-carb feed but I see no nutritional analysis to support that on the label.
Does anyone have any input on the ingredients and/or quality of production, and does anyone know of the nutritional content with regard to NSCs?
Thanks!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 - 3:45 pm:
I feed SafeChoice and have the same concerns. Whenever a product says "by products" I take that to mean just about anything, like sawdust is a byproduct of wood. I am looking at a label I just pulled out of the file, and I don't see what you just put down. I see "grain products, Plant protein products, processed grain by products, roughage products, forage products" followed by all the vitamines they added.
I questioned a rep from Nutrena, and he never gave me an answer of ingredients but assured me it was safe enough to feed as a total feed with no chance of colic or side affects.
So I kinda thought o.k., sawdust with lots of vitamins, safe!
I've often thought of just feeding plain old cleaned oats, with a good vitamin supplement. Heck they get the vitamin supplement anyhow, and I only feed the SafeChoice so the supps have something to stick to.
Now that this has come up, I hope we do get some straight answers.
Like buying dog food, and any of our processed food, I sometimes think it's healthier to eat the bag the food came in!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 - 4:50 pm:
There is a good article on feeds in the Dec. issue of The Horse mag www.thehorse.com It is comparing high end feeds with economy feeds (major mills do both types.) It mentions wheat mids and soy hulls as very digestible fiber. The article also says the higher in fiber the lower in calories.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 8:54 am:
One animal's byproduct is another's sustenance...
Wheat midlings are a bit difficult to pigeon hole because they can vary so much in composition. They tend to be fairly high in protein and can contain large amounts of non-structural carbohydrates like starch and tend to be high in phosphorous and low in calcium. So midlings can certainly be used in quality feeds but requires the feed company to test it's midlings to determine how to balance them to be sure their guaranteed analysis is ...well... worthy of being guaranteed.
DrO
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 8:55 am:
When I had a question about the ingredients in the feed I wanted to use I emailed the manufacturer.
I received a detailed breakdown of ingredients and analysis of daily intake.
I had a further question, they responded quite promtly.
Perhaps if this manufacturer isn't so forthcoming a look elsewhere would be in order.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 11:24 am:
Interesting. One of the things that struck me right away about SafeChoice was the Cal Phos ratio, (about 1% Cal : .75% Phos .. most feeds I've seen have been more like 1:.5 ratios.
I sent an email to Nutrena requesting more info (ingredients list including percentages, additional nutritional breakdown including NSCs, and ingredients source and QA info). I will post what I hear back (if anything).
I guess to be fair I will do the same to the other pelleted feeds I'm looking at .. it will be interesting to see who says what!
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New Member:
gr8care
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 11:51 am:
We fed SafeChoice for several years. Since we have cattle (and also feed Nutrena beef products), I just happened to look at a label of the calf creep. How do I say this nicely?... I felt dooped since there was a very slight difference in the label, but huge difference in price. The worst part--the calf feed had a better level of certain vitamins/minerals.
So, it made us think outside the box. We feed exceptionally good quality hay, free choice salt/mineral, and just the weanlings, yearlings, and any "hard keepers" get additional feed. Amazingly, our horses look just as good, if not better!
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New Member:
gr8care
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 11:55 am:
I should mention that we focus more on the best quality and ratios of vitamins and minerals. We also test our hay, so know exactly what we're dealing with.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 2:14 pm:
I used to feed the sweet feed mix from one of our local feed mills. The ingredients were corn, oats, dried molasses, and vitamins. The feed mill in town, (the city man's feed store I call it) had the same mix, but listed the ingredients as "grain products" no break down of ingredients. It always looked like more ground up corn cobs than anything else.
Then the other feed mill started doing the same thing, no separate listing of ingredients, so I quit making the extra drive to that one, and switched to Safe Choice from the city feed store.
Shannon,
Can't wait to see if you get a detailed response by email. I am betting you'll get a number to call, and some vague answers, that was my experience, I may have some notes from that conversation somewheres. Of course maybe things have changed in the lasts 2 years or so.
Me thinks I will feed the pelleted vitamin supplement I have, and start mixing the joint supplement on that. I guess if the powdered joint supplement don't stick to the 1/4 cup of vit pellets, maybe I'll just change the way I feed the joint supplement! And when the hay quality is better, I'll feel o.k. about eliminating the vit & minerals even.
Grace,
What cattle feed are you feeding the horses if I may ask? With hay prices so high, and in our area, hay quality being so poor, anything to cut costs the while keeping the horses healthy would be appreciated knowing about.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 4:15 pm:
Extreme caution must be exercised when feeding cattle feed to horses.
Commonly used growth promoters that are added to cattle feed called ionophores are very toxic to horses. Even when cattle feeds do not have these promoters added they only need to run through some of the same silos or bagging apparatuses to pick up enough monensin to kill a horse. For more see Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Dementia: Depression, Excitement, Coma » Ionophores and Livestock Feed Poisoning.
DrO
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 5:38 pm:
Dr. O that was one reason I was taken aback after hearing that Nutrena processes the cattle and horse feeds in the same facility. That, and the thought that they were probably taking the same ingredients, putting it in a shiny bag and doubling the price... The safety issue is of course more concerning but being taken for a fool burns my butt too 
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 6:02 pm:
We feed the nutren beef feed (creep) also, though I must say the cost isn't much difference than the safechoice around here. Hubby told me to NEVER feed the horses the beef feed, for reasons Dr.O. stated.
I feed my horses a handful of safechoice twice a day. I have researched feeds because of my easy keepers. Nutrena would like you to believe this is a SAFE feed for easy keepers when in fact the nsc's are 17 to in the 20's. which is fine for normal horses and horses that aren't severely IR.
I believe Safechoice is an ok, safe horse feed, no problems have ever been reported with it and it has been on the market for a long time. As with all feeds some horses thrive better on one over a certain other.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 6:40 pm:
Shannon, your buns are burning over several assumptions: if they use the same machinery for cattle and horse feed and whether they use ionophore growth promoters at all. As to the similarity of the ingredients I cannot speak to that but even if the list is similar there may be differences in quality. I am not supporting the company just pointing out there is a lot of unknown information here for you to be getting your underclothings in a twisting like motion.
DrO
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Member:
hpyhaulr
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 7:10 pm:
I don't know a severely IR from a june bug.
I don't know what NSC's are. I do know that I spent over 2 years experimenting with feeds. In the end, I settled on Safe Choice. I have all my horses and the donkey on it. In the morning it gets mixed with oats. At night, it is plain. My horses no longer have weight problems. I don't worry so much about the nutrient content of the hay, as it is purely for the munch factor. As long as there is no dust or mold, we are all good. My kids range in age from 3 years to 16. Tuffy, my senior horse and the lowest common denominator, used to gain weight on just about anything I brought in the barn.I was mixing sweet feed with 10% and oats and bran yadda, yadda, yadda.... I felt like some kind of alchemist every time I came from the feed store this is simple they like it and they are all thriving. Tuffy's coat looks great, her eyes bright, everyone is doing so well it almost scares me. I have to go past 3 other feed stores to get to the one with the Safe Choice, and it is inconvenient as all get out, but it is working very well for us and has been for over nearly 2 years now. The $ has gone up a few $$ since I started it, but I bet so has everything else. I stopped the sweet feed, and everything else. My horses are healthy, content and I am down to one less thing to obsess about. Fewer maalox moments for me. That's gotta be worth something.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 7:31 pm:
DrO,
Thanks for pointing the safety issues out with feeding cattle feed to horses! Yikes!
I am glad that none of my horses need more than hay to maintain their weight. I do share some of Shannon's concerns and worry that we are buying a bunch of waste products fortified to resemble feed!
I just keep worrying that any pelleted horse feed it similiar to dog food in that they can say (poultry) by products, and that can include feathers and feet! Hopefully we don't have that in our horse feed, this is just an example. Even if the word "by" is left out, it seems funny that it not clearly stated on the label what the ingredients are.
Oh, I'll keep buying it I suppose. I don't think it's harmful at all.
Cyndy,
I used to do what you did. Mixed and measured an assortment of feeds, added oats, sometimes corn, extra this, extra that. Geesh, what a headache and if you do that, there is a good chance you are changing the balance of some nutrients, and that isn't always good.
The only thing I do now is add some corn this time of year because we have bags of it for the deer and I snitch some for the horses. Some believe the corn wears their teeth down, who knows?
There is a nutrition course offered out there, it might be on Pete Ramey's site! You take it online, sounds pretty thorough.
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New Member:
gr8care
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 9:49 pm:
Grace here--
NEVER did I say we fed the cattle feed to the horses (for the reasons that Dr O mentioned)! What I said was I noticed a considerable similarity to Nutrena's calf creep and the SafeChoice product, that certainly didn't justify the price difference: $5.25 and $9.45, respectively.
My point was just very simply to say that most horses do not require any additional feed if they are eating excellent quality hay/pasture and have access to salt/minerals. It was a difficult concept for me to grasp, since I was addicted to bagged feed!!
I was also glad to see that DrO pointed out that the labels rarely tell us enough to make a prudent decision about the feed's quality.
I should also point out that we, too, had great success with SafeChoice, including the successful reconditioning of 18 head of malnourished horses (0-2 on the Henneke scale) awarded to us by the county Sheriff (thanks to our community thinking so much of us!). The other 36 head of horses in that group were fed free choice bermuda hay and gained weight at the same rate.
We have a running joke in our household, "that's how they do it out West." We say that half jokingly like with feeding horses cattle feed. (Keep in mind, I cringe to even say this...) We do know of several folks that have fed cattle feed to their horses. In fact, one fellow has a stallion that his diet since he was a yearling has been baby beef textured feed from the fellow's local mill! The horse is either 15 or 16 years old and not had any health issues (although I think he's overweight). I wonder if he's just too young to have any complications, yet. Perhaps DrO can give more insight.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 10:30 pm:
Holy Tamole, Grace! You can buy feed for less than $10 a bag!! Wow. Regardless of brand or type, we are paying at least $12 and the Senior is near $18!
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Member:
hpyhaulr
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 - 10:57 pm:
Yikes... I am am paying $13.25 a bag. I am going to tell Walt to keep an eye out for it at other places before on his way back here... some day....maybe he can find it cheaper in Florida or Georgia or someother place along the way....
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 5:58 am:
Yea hubby would love to buy the beef feed that cheap I think he pays around $9 a bag and Safechoice is $11.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 7:10 am:
I was paying $8.95 a couple of years ago, now it's $13.00 a bag here. $8.95 a bag, and questionable ingredients is one thing, but $4 more per bag, and I question everything more!
I've considered just feeding straight oats which should be cheaper for my needs, but the local city place don't have "clean" oats, so that means driving out of the way to the other mill...grrr...can't win sometimes, huh?
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New Member:
gr8care
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Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 8:59 am:
You are all right about the price. Those prices were a couple of years ago. Now, the price is over $13.00 a bag for the SafeChoice. Back in the day, we were feeding 2 tons of sack feed per month to our own and foster horses.
Even the beef cattle feeds are getting "pricey" (in cattle terms) at over $8.00 a bag, now.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 10:01 am:
I used to feed nothing but straight "race oats" or triple cleaned whole oats, and life was much easier. Trouble is I can't find them any more where we live! I used to like the Clysdale brand which were made by Budwiser. The only whole oats I can find around here are light weight and dirty...one bag looked like the mill had just swept up the floor and put the sweepings in a bag; another had hard bits of rubber in it! So, I've quite feeing oats. I went to Purina's Equine Sr. and the local stores quit carrying it; now I use Nutrina Senior and some Safe Choice, but don't like the Nutrina as well as the Purina.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 10:24 am:
May I make a suggestion to those of you who are concerned about Safe Choice? Dr. Sarah Ralston at Rutgers University Equine Studies Program was one of the veterinarians instrumental in the development of Safe Choice.
She does nutritional research at the University and is a frequent go-to person for me whenever I have questions about feed. She welcomes questions from the public--emphasizing that the research she does is for EVERYONE!
Contact her at:
Sarah Ralston
E-mail Address(es):
ralston@AESOP.Rutgers.edu
She is great about answering relatively promptly.
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 10:30 am:
Grace if the concentrate your neighbor is feeding to his horse creates a balanced diet with the forage he feeds and does not contain the ionophore (cattle growth promoter/horse toxin) why would you expect it to cause problems?
DrO
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 10:37 am:
HA! Too funny Dr. O, you are right I am getting my knickers in a twist over assumptions, hopefully I will hear from back a Nutrena rep (and others) soon and have more information by which to twist or untwist
Good grief - I can't believe the prices you guys are getting for feed; SafeChoice here (and most others) is $17 a bag. Plus tax of course! Luckily I don't feed much concentrate. I probably don't want to know what you all pay for hay .. what we get is $320 per ton, delivered and stacked. Granted it is the best grass hay I have seen on the west coast, we have zero waste and the horses do very well on it. But considering that 5 years ago I was paying $180 for the same .. it's pretty painful.
I am guilty of being in the 'mix lots of different stuff' category for concentrates, which is why I'm shopping for something simpler. It was easy when I had just our two horses but adding boarders makes it a lot more work. I have to admit to the worst: in the winter I always fed a hot mash at night which was cooked all day, consisting of groats (hull-less oats), cracked corn, flaked barley, flax seeds, wheat bran, beet pulp, carrots, and mineral salt. And a pelleted feed of course I picked up the habit at a TB farm I worked on back east, that's what we fed all the yearlings that lived outside. Overkill? You betcha
Part of why I am being so particular (aside from it being my nature .. my husband would probably use a more descriptive word!) is that my horses are currently all in excellent condition and have no behavior issues. The only reason I want to switch feed is for convenience. The horses will probably do well regardless considering the bulk of their feed is good hay .. hopefully though I will get some good info from the feed reps and learn something from this effort.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 10:51 am:
Erika, you posted while I was writing .. thanks for that info! I will definitely contact her too!
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Member:
cdhale
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Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 10:52 am:
There is some interesting information on feeding horses at safergrass.org. Most of it is about forage, NSCs and laminitic horses, but there is info on supplements also. It was a real eyeopener for me.
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New Member:
gr8care
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Posted on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 - 2:31 pm:
Dr O,
Isn't it hard to know if the local mill is manufacturing some products with ionophore, then running the non-ionophore products next?
While our forage based nutrition program has worked well for our horses, we focus on vitamin and mineral supplements, and of course, the weanling and yearling groups receive an additional concentrate feed. We were told that most horses do not achieve effective fiber digestion until age 2. This is our most difficult group to keep in GREAT condition, so perhaps this makes sense.
For our vitamin and mineral needs, we use the ADM products. (https://www.admani.com/AllianceEquine/)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 7, 2008 - 4:52 am:
All you need do is ask Grace but my understanding is in general feed mills are aware of this problem.
DrO
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Member:
gr8care
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 7, 2008 - 11:42 pm:
DrO,
My husband, being the conservative type, thought it would be nice to have a custom mix horse feed for freshness, convenience and of course cost. When I checked with the recommended mill, their idea of "cleaning" was running a batch of non-ionophore product before running any horse feed. Since I wasn't an expert, but knew that it did not take a great deal of ionophores to cause problems in the horses, it made me nervous. If the mill's practice is safe, we would prefer to have our own mixed feed. You're input would be greatly appreciated.
Jennifer
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 8, 2008 - 12:18 am:
I agree that would make be nervous too and cannot attest to the safety or lack of safety of such a practice.
DrO
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