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  Discussion on Hoof care and metabolic effects
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Member:
huf5

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 2:17 pm:

I could not think of a better title at the moment.
This is simply to carry on a subject brought up in another discussion.
I will copy paste my comments so that anyone can add on as they wish.
I would like to point out that I like to listen to anyone's opinion, thought or advise. Please don't hesitate to ask any questions or voice concerns.
No fear of criticisms here I just would like to broaden my horizon :-)
Thank you.
Member:
huf5

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 2:53 pm:

application/msword
thermal imaging.doc (62.5 k)
Member:
huf5

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 3:05 pm:

Previous Posts:
If the horses core body temperature does not stay stable at a normal rate, the metabolic function (as in any mammal) will not work properly.
In one scenario if a horse is blanketed and overheats, sweats, then gets too cold as he can not move nor move the hair shafts, the core body temperature DrOps, metabolic function ceases to work properly.
One of many side effects is that excess protein remains in the bloodstream which make the liver and kidneys work harder. This in turn **could** cause mudfever, rainscold, scratches, etc. Not to be forgotten is that proper hoof-care and ***MOVEMENT** are key factors in this. And by hoof-care I simply mean letting the hoof mechanism function that proper blood flow can circulate, as the horses heart is only 0.5% compared to body weight in size(vs humans, cats, dogs it is 1%) and since the lower limbs of the leg do not have muscles which would aid in other mammals to push the blood back to the heart, the horse relies on the 4 auxiliary pumps designed inside the hoof-mechanism (amongst many other functions). Without proper blood-flow the nerve function ceases to work properly, as once an ion has been used by a nerve due to stimuli it needs glycogen and oxygen to rebuild this ion, and this is transported by the blood flow.
As the hoof is filled with blood on impact (weight-bearing phase) and pushes the blood back up the leg during the non-weight-bearing phase = this translate to when a shoe is applied (non-flexible metal) during the non-weight-bearing phase once the horse is weigh-bearing not only is the blood flow dramatically reduced but also the hoof can not flex as it is meant to do in order to work as the auxiliary pump.
https://www.equinethermography.co.uk/galleries/horse_hoof_thermal_gallery.php
(**improper hoof-care including improper trimming can cause this also, not just shoes)
I am only skimming the surface here.
Let's not forget that millions of years of evolution can not be changed by a couple of 100 years of domestication, and please let's not compare humans to horses as we are carnivores and they are herbivores - very different in psychology and physiology.
Again I am only skimming the surface here. I would like to point out that this is simply my view about this subject. All this information has been backed up with scientific materials as well as observational materials. None of this information is my own material.

Here is a list of references:
Studies/Research by Dr. Pollit, Dr.Bowker, Dr.T.Teskey, Dr. Strasser, Equine Soundness.com.
Materials: Lifetime of Soundness; Founder: Prevention & Cure; Mustang Mysteries by Allie Hayes; The Sound Hoof: Horse Health from the ground up; Equine Nutrition; Paddock Paradise; Making Natural Hoof Care Work for you; Horse Owner's Guide to Natural Hoof Care (aka. HOG), "Equine Wellness" Magazine; The Natural Horse.
This also includes: Readings found online, studies found on-line, contacted certain authors for validity, too many to list.

I do not wish to give the impression that I agree with everything from these materials, but this is the information used for and in my studies.
The best teacher still is the HORSE and each has their own individual need. There are no absolutes until scientific measures can be created and met more appropriately and until actual scientific research is performed on feral horses diet, and I believe even then there are no 100% certainties.
Please feel free to add, comment and/or question anything you read here.
I will do my utter best to find the answers if I don't have them myself.
Thank you for your support.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 3:59 pm:

Miriam I have a foundered horse, yes it was due to metabolic upset...too much sugar, not enough exercise, so yes I do agree there is a connection there. I have probably read every website and then some trying to find the ans to help my horse over the last few years including some of the ones you site. Granted my farrier isn't the best, my horse did not start on the road to recovery until he was placed in shoes and an equithane pad.
I tried my best to keep him barefoot..I used boots, pads, styrofoam you name it! I believe at the time his trim wasn't the greatest, but MANY people face that dilemma. If we got "aggressive" he would get so sore he couldn't move. If I let him out and he walked on semi-hard ground it about killed him! I took him for walks with his boots and pads for miles.

I have to say his "cure" was the shoes and pads. I don't doubt the thermoregulation hoof stuff, but let's consider when a horse is in an active case of laminitis. There is extreme heat and inflammation. You don't know this about me being a new member, but I am a digital pulse freak (Dr.O. helps keep me calm) When Hank foundered his pulse and heat were horrible and stayed that way until we finally threw in the barefoot towel and applied the shoes with pads...within hours his DP and heat were gone...within a day he was walking normal. I could have kicked myself in the butt for not doing it sooner after seeing his relief. Many of us have had to go to shoes to keep our horses sound or at least help them get there. Hank is now barefoot and will remain that way unless he tells me he needs shoes.

As far as Dr. Strasser, I think a lot of her stuff makes sense and some of it is a little dramatic, however most of her cases I have read about were extreme, which calls for extreme measures sometimes.

I still don't think it quite right to compare our domesticated horses to feral horses, I suppose we could learn from it, but it's kind of like apples and oranges. I do have the means to let my horses live like that, we have about 300 acres we rent and own they could run, but I'm pretty sure they would have a hard time surviving. 2 of them would eat themselves sick and die and the other is too arthritic.

Miriam I see from your profile you are studying to be a hoof care person, just from your passion I'm sure you will be a very good one, and look for answers. I am not making a "barefoot VS. shoes" argument that can go on and on! I PREFER barefoot, but convenience and comfort wins out with owners who have limited time and no commitment. (me) I hope in your quest to become a hoof care specialist you don't ignore those facts.

Dr.O.'s articles, especially rehabilitation of foundered horses really is what saved Hank AND getting his diet under control, his shoes saved him until that happened.

Now blanketing that's a whole nuther subject and since the cat is sitting here curled up on my lap and my OCD is at a heightened level with son flying in blizzard weather I could go on and on, but I hate typing too much so must give my fingers a rest
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 4:41 pm:

DrO,

You may move any of my posts from the other thread that correspond to Miriam's new post here.

I don't think you want me to copy, cut, and paste my own posts?

Miriam,

Thank you for starting this new thread. I'll be sure to read the links you provided as time permits.
Member:
huf5

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 5:21 pm:

Hi Diane,
Please take a deep breath :-) (I have a mild form of OCD also)
I just came back from feeding my guys and shoveling the drive-way
Since 1pm we have received about 1.5 feet of snow. I'm loving it, the horses are too, we played a lot, and they made a lot of snow angles (I was not so inclined to DrOp on all fours, so I just watched)

About Hank, I think that you must do what feels right for you and in the end what feels right for him. If "getting him there" took shoes and pads for you then that is alright.
I am not here to judge; I have a way of looking at a situation like Hank's, but I am not there to see Hank suffer, and how his feet were kept, nor how much or little movement he could bare, and see what his diet consisted of at the time.
It isn't easy, there are so many factors to consider. This is why I am going to school, because when I first started on this personal quest of mine I went to a clinic or two, read a view things and started - a dangerous way to start if you don't know how deep the pathology really is
Nor do I claim to have all answers or that I am a vet, there is a time and place to call the vet, and I will be quick to point that out. Also, I know this may go against some natural trimmers, but there are cases where there is simply too much bone degeneration, and permanent nerve damage, (and much more) where we also have to take a step back and really assess the situation: is this a quality of life for this horse?
Again, I am still learning a lot,so bare with me (no pun intended)

Angie, any time, I have a lot of articles and other reading material to offer, just let me know :-)

And EVERYONE Merry Christmas :-):-)
Member:
huf5

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 5:29 pm:

ps: definition of Feral:
"A domesticated species that has become wild."
https://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/publications/strategy/gloss.html

-as there were no horses present in the America's before the conquistadors came to S.America.
(fun-fact)

Also (sorry Diane no harm meant :-) ) apples and oranges are genetically different, feral horses and domesticated horses are the same species (different breeds of course)
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2008 - 9:03 am:

Miriam,

The second link on thermal imaging was great! What an eye opener showing what a little bit of imbalance can do. I know my first attempts at trimming were very uneven, which I couldn't see until I looked at the pictures on the computer. Pictures tell so much.

I have become friends with a Strasser Certified Trimmer, she helps me via emails with my questions. I would love to add you to my email friends if you are interested in sharing hoof care, holistic horse care. I can see you have a wealth of information from the links you provided above.

You can email me at: Fancy4j at gmail dot com and just put your name from HA in the subject matter.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2008 - 10:23 am:

I've always understood that if a foot is trimmed correctly and a shoe is put on right, there will be room for the heel and frog area to expand. Also, that the frog shouldn't be trimmed so that it can't reach the ground. If this is done, won't the foot still be able to pump blood, as I'd also understood that it is mainly the frog that helps to circulate the blood. Is this correct?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2008 - 11:30 am:

Hello Miriam,
I am trying to make sense of your post above about "a horse's core body temperture..." No one would argue that there is a small range of core body temperature in mammals for optimal health. And no one should argue with the good sense statement that you should not blanket a horse to the point it causes him to sweat. But the relationship of blanketing, even if you occasionally cause the horse to sweat, and mud fever is at best unknown and the reason no one has studied this is the relationship is likely to be insignificant.

I would not expect such circumstances to cause a rise in core body temperature that would be out of the optimal functional range and the idea of this "increasing the protein in the blood" does not make any sense to me. It's almost like you are talking about hydration levels (dehyration causes a rise in protein levels) and this is finely controlled by water consumption and kidney function and therefore not susceptible to small alterations in core body temperature in an otherwise healthy animal. I guess I am disagreeing with the idea that blanketing a horse to the point of sweating, while not good management, causes significant changes in "blood proteins" which in turn cause the kidneys and liver to work harder predisposing a horse to scratches. It is at best a very tenuous supposition and most likely an insignificant relation.
DrO
Member:
huf5

Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2008 - 8:14 pm:

Dr.O,

I have contacted a teacher at the school, and forwarded your information.
I will await an answer.
Thank you.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2008 - 10:18 pm:

Yes domesticated and feral horses are the same species, but they live VERY differently. You don't see many feral horses running down a race track or carrying a rider for miles. When you add the weight of a rider and the many, many diversified things we ask of a horse things change. When watching my horses fly around the fields and run up and down hills when out playing they look so free and balanced. Add a rider...and some of us aren't all that balanced yet! things change. Walk up or down a steep hill, or barefoot on some gravel, then go do it with a sack of #50 of sand on your back and you'll see a big difference in the way you move. I know horses and humans are not the same but the physics are similar.

I have no argument with keeping horses natural, my position is that it is nearly impossible to do, with land, time, ect. constraints.

Blankets were a big part of my education at the barn I worked for. 90% of them wore blankets usually starting in the fall to keep hair growth down...something I didn't understand, but it did seem to work a little...the reason of course was to keep them from sweating when worked in the arena in our very cold winters, but then these silly people would clip the horses hair off then put a big heavy blanket on them in the winter!! I could not make heads or tails of this and asked what was the reasoning behind something so contradictory. The reason being these horses were worked including jumping 3-4 times a week. they sweat when the do that and if they were wooly they would never dry. Well that made sense, I always had to be careful when riding in the winter to make sure my horse didn't sweat and get a chill. If they did sweat I had to put a cooler on them and walk them out....took hours.

Some people use blankets because of their gastly weather. If mine didn't have a shelter to get in I would consider it. For example the other day the wind chill was -60 the wind makes it much harder for a horse to keep themselves warm, mine never even went out and ate on the big bale for more then half an hour before they were literally running back in the lean-to to get out of the wind. Can horses survive without blankets why of course they can, but since we are people of convenience (drying out) and comfort (help staying warm) why not do it. It isn't going to hurt anything. I have never seen a blanketed horse get sick because of a blanket and I worked at that barn for 10 yrs. I have seen horses get sick from being cold and wet....skinny from burning excess calories trying to keep warm. How good can that be for their immune system?

As a disclaimer I don't blanket and probably never will, but I can see where it is necessary sometimes.
Member:
huf5

Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2008 - 11:22 pm:

Certainly sounds reasonable.
My horses live outdoors, and spend very little time in the shelter even at -30Celcius (plus 2.5 feet of snow (had to dig out my fence-line this morning)
But again these are my guys, and it works for them, I know it doesn't work for everyone:-)
Thank you.
Member:
huf5

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 12:33 am:

snow

-20Celcius :-)
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 5:26 am:

Mine actually love the snow and cold it was the 40mph winds that DrOve them into the lean Did you see my post "Our Motto" They had a blast rolling and playing in the snow.

I believe the wind takes away or limits their ability to keep warm, and after the pigs left their hay because of it I believe. I think they may have appreciated a blanket that day.

Beautiful horse!
Member:
huf5

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 7:02 am:

Good morning Diane,

burrrr, I SURE am not crazy about the cold....
I couldn't find your thread about "My Motto" - where could I find it????
Can you direct me there please?

The wind does not help, I think my horses are at an advantage point because they have very varied terrain, they can be in the open or in the woods (like in the photo) where they have more protected from wind. :-)
...ok gotta drag myself outside now to feed and then head out to work... :-)
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 7:29 am:

Miriam it isn't really a "thread" about anything just pictures of my horses in the snow...if you scroll down it a bit you will see them playing in it
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 9:30 am:

I hope I get a good grade.
DrO
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 9:35 am:

Funny DrO!! I'd give you an A+ for your knowledge & advice!

Miriam,

The picture looks like the scene here this morning. It's really pretty if you love white stuff! And all 4 of my horses were standing in the open also, no problem. It's 4 above zero.
Member:
huf5

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 9:45 am:

Diane :-):-) Love the pic's, especially the one rolling - I tried to get my guys rolling on photos, but they literally 'fall' down, roll, and jump up to buck, jump and play within seconds, I never get a good shot....

Hi Dr.O - sorry for the email, very passionate one here (moi). As soon as I hear back (might be a while - Christmas) I will up-date.
Member:
huf5

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 12:21 pm:

Hi Sara, please don't think I had not seen your post. I sent you an email, let me know if you were able to receive it.
Thank you :-)
Member:
stek

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 3:47 pm:

Regarding blanketing, in my experience the weather, conditions, how the horse is being used, and the horse's coat and condition all play a role in what's appropriate. Here in the pacific northwest, our nasty weather usually comes as 40° and rain and wind, the combination makes it impossible for any horse out in it to stay warm, even with a good thick hair coat. We usually use rain sheets to keep them dry and feed more hay to help them keep warm, allowing them to thermo regulate as much as possible on their own. When it gets into the teens at night we go to mid-weight blankets. Keep in mind our horses are out 24/7 with just trees for shelter.

Growing up in the east and rocky mountains we almost never blanketed, and I thought it was silly unless you had to keep your horse clipped and working thru the winter. After my first wet winter here I changed my tune. Of course we take blankets off whenever possible, and adjust the blanket weights as needed. One thing I hate is driving by a field of heavily blanketed horses on a 50° sunny day.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 4:21 pm:

This is an interesting thread. For me I'd say that the longer I keep horses, the less religion I have on any of these topics-- blankets, shoes, etc.. I started out mostly opposed to blankets or shoes, but now I use them if it makes a horse more comfortable or better suited to a job. I'm a Yankee, so suspicious of extremism of any flavor-- there's always an exception, even to a really good rule, at least in my world.

With my horses, and all my critters as well as my young daughter, I have a level of control that raises all kinds of ethical questions about their care and their obligations to me, as well as the consequences I inflict if they are unable or unwilling to fulfill their side of the one-sided "contract" I unilaterally negotiated with them. I think all of these discussions about what's natural and better and so on are interesting, because they illuminate where other thoughtful and knowledgeable people stand, for now, in this area.

Guess I need more coffee....
Member:
huf5

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008 - 8:26 pm:

Well put Elizabeth :-)
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 - 9:20 am:

Elizabeth, I admire how you can put thoughts into words. I agree with your post, just no way could have put it so well.

Looking forward to the reply to Dr. O's post.

When I read the article about natural hoof care I get the feeling that according to the author all ills in a horse may be cured with 'proper' trimming.
A bit like garlic according to some adds. This type of enthusiasm simply makes me suspicious of the validity of the entire article.
And I am a barefoot enthusiast!!
While emulating a natural environment would be ideal many of us don't have the land to do this.
Seriously if a horse was going to be allowed to live in a natural state that would eliminate trimming, worming etc. I think everyone agrees that isn't wise.. Also, once we start riding, esp in inclement weather we have left the natural once again.
So it is up to me to provide ways to compensate for the horse.

I thought/think like Sara about the frog and shoe also.
Is there new research that supports a different view?
I haven't had shoes on my horses for years but still like to keep up with current research.
Member:
hedgehog

Posted on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 - 12:48 pm:

I totally agree with the viewpoint of "Different Horse, Different Treatment.". Every horse is an individual from individual feet to personality. I too think the "Passionate" barefoot trimmer is a bit like Garlic. I think sometimes the person's passion gets in the way of the horse's need. I recently watched a barefoot trimmer remove the sole of a Cushinoid mare to about 1/16". When the trimmer was done, the mare was barely walking. The mare was treated for founder the next day. I have also watched my own 23 year old TB mare with Navicular go from shoes and pads, which did work to reduce pain quite a bit, back to barefoot with a reliable, open minded, and knowledgeable farrier (the same farrier that put her in shoes and pads actually). She is pain free and happily galloping in the field bossing all the other horses around her. Was that because of barefoot trimming? Nope. Just finding out what works for her. No infrared needed.

As far as blanketing goes. Please blanket with common sense. At our barn those that get blankets can't maintain their own body heat...those with compromised immune systems, those with predisposition to Rainrot or other skin disease, hard keepers with thin coats, the very old (we blanket our 43 year old), and those that have reached a point of shivering due to extreme wetness which rarely happens (dried first of course). We check blankets daily. No one ever sweats underneath their blanket. it rains and snows constantly here in the winter with temperatures ranging from 11°F to 50°F.
Just my two cents.
Member:
huf5

Posted on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 - 7:47 pm:

Thank you for your question Sara.
From what I have learned at the school that I attend, and from my own readings the hoof works as such:

Anatomy: the hoof seen from the front is shaped like a bell, meaning that the lateral and medial walls grow down and outwards. The reasons believed for this is that the hoof needs to be able to expand upon impact and be able to distribute the concussional forces.
A healthy foot will land heel-landing first, spread at the bulbs, roll along the surface off the frog and sole by the bars, and break-over around the point of the tip of the coffin bone (toe-callous area = protection grown by the sole for the thinnest part between sole and sole-corium, and to protect the fine edge around the coffin bone and the circumference artery wrapped around that edge), and then the foot is lifted for the next sequence.
When the hoof strikes the ground, the bell shaped hoof spreads starting at the heel/bulb region in turn pulling the blood into the hoof capsule. This is part of shock absorption and in order to push the blood back up the leg during the lifting phase (non-weight-bearing phase) since there are no muscles to aid the blood up the leg back to the heart.
Once the hoof is non-weight bearing the blood is now pushed out of the hoof due to the hoof contracting back to the non-weight bearing shape. The frog is a part of the hoof mechanism (ie: blood flow function) but not the main or only part that is responsible.
My worry of shoeing is that shoes are applied during the non-weight bearing phase, when the hoof is in the contracted state (blood is pushed out of the hoof) and once the horse is weight bearing again the hoof can not flex enough to expand and pull the blood back into the hoof capsule.
My other worry is that a conventional trim is done in order to prepare the hoof for a shoe application, meaning you require a level and flat surface, this usually (not always) means that the sole callous is removed completely, and the sensitive edge of the coffin bone, sole corium, and the circumference artery are now exposed to painful pressures.
The shoe is made of metal and when a applied does not allow enough flexibility in order for the hoof to pull and push the blood in and out of the hoof. I have spoken to a farrier over the weekend, and he was not certain to what degree it does flex, he has advised that a shoe will flex but since the horn of the hoof is a much less dense material then a shoe, it would be logical to think that the hoof would not be able to flex enough whilst being shod.
What worries me also are the concussional forces created by shoes causing nerve damage, possible bone damage and joint damage as the shock-waves travel upwards.
"But the horseshoe holds the foot inflexible, canceling out 75% of its ability to absorb shock. Instead, the concussion goes on up the leg and damages joints and tendons that were not designed to take so much shock."

here are some videos done by a European school:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fql-xsofeg0&feature=related
-impact of shoed hoof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6yLEdr2EOM&feature=related
-impact of anatomical trim hoof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghi4mhZgJvA&feature=related
-hoof touch-down between anatomical trim and conventional trim

I do believe there is a way of shoeing that encourages more balanced break-over and frog contact (stimulation), although it will not let the hoof flex enough regardless and still hinder proper blood flow, nerve function and shock absorption.

It is important to keep in my mind that hoof-care is not the only impact on a horses (hoof-) health. There is diet, life-style, (lack of) exercise, illness, etc - many many influences, some of which we are not even aware of.

I would like to point out that the article I have posted I do not longer agree with a 100% and apologize to have mislead anyone.
I am still learning as well, and I am incredibly passionate about this. I try not be an extremist, but it is hard when many are fast to judge and it isn't always easy to 'write' everything I need to say (or have rumbling around in my head). ..can't type as fast as I think..., can't write as beautifully and politically correct as Elizabeth ;-)
As with everything in life there is always an exception.
Thank you for all the contribution.
Happy New Year.
ps: I have never sored a horse from trimming, and highly disagree in doing so, because it debunks our theory of giving the horse the best ability to move as freely and painless as possible.
Member:
huf5

Posted on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 - 7:56 pm:

thermal imaging of unbalanced hooves (bare)and shoed hooves:
https://www.equinethermography.co.uk/galleries/horse_hoof_thermal_gallery.php

https://www.goinfrared.com/success/ir_image/1174/industry_id/1049/

**there is another thermal image at the top of this thread
It is too bad that so far I have not been able to find any thermal images of a horse in motion!
Member:
dres

Posted on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 - 8:31 pm:

https://tenderhoof.com/m_33.asp
take a look at the last video, it shows how the hoof can move ! These folks are wonderful to work with.. I have been putting on their concussion pads on my horse now for 6 months.. He is comfortable and off bute!~

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
huf5

Posted on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 - 10:23 pm:

Hi Ann, I have seen that video.
This is however not the usual shoe our everyday farrier uses, most others unfortunately do not posses that elastic memory.
It is very interesting to watch. I am curious does it explain why it has this ability? Is it purely the designed shape or the type of alloy used, or both?
One concern left though is peripheral loading; that can also result in improper trimming, by leaving the hoof wall too long.
I am glad to hear that your horse is comfortable and off bute Ann
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 - 10:38 pm:

Miriam enthusiasm is great. You see most horse owners would love to have barefoot horses, I don't think you would find anyone on here that disagrees with that.

If you look through the many posts of all of us who tried it and it just wouldn't work. I just think shoes/pads do help for some pathologies and can make a difference between comfortable and uncomfortable, sound or not sound. When you get to the point of choosing between a painful horse or a happy horse hoof flex just isn't #1 priority.

I had a wonderful natural trimmer when Hank was young. I got a big education everytime he did my horses, he gave me books to read and explained everything about the frog and blood flow and flexing. My horses hooves never looked better.

Hank was being ridden quite often then on various terrain and he was always sore footed, the trimmer finally said he is a thin soled beast and nothing I can do will change that (he tried)...tb genetics we supposed and he put shoes on him!!

He always put aluminum shoes on and routed out the toe to maximize flexibility. I couldn't even hear the shoes when he walked on pavement (was weird). Hank went barefoot in the winter mos. when not ridden much, but he was not rideable...when worked on hard ground without them, his whole personality changed once the shoes were applied (for the best) because he was not in pain anymore. He had one of the biggest, plump frogs you could ever find.(still does). Hanks hooves weren't going to toughen up, he was given time, he was in excellent shape, and I hate fussing with boots...tho I do use them on my arab gelding who isn't ridden as much.

I just think no one should close their minds to appliances that do work and keep our horses pain free, and rideable. They were invented for a reason All my horses are barefoot, but I wouldn't hesitate to put shoes/pads on if it meant the difference between sound or sore. I have never had an experience where the horse came out of the shoes worse then when he went in them. Just the opposite actually, and I'm not just speaking of Hank.

I'm not knocking your passion and enthusiasm, but as a horse trimmer you will run across horses that just can't go barefoot if you do enough of them, and I hope you will take their comfort into consideration as did Hanks "natural trimmer"
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 - 5:14 am:

This is a oft repeated discussion here and I do believe that going shoeless promotes better foot health but that is not the whole story.

Many of the problems associated with shoes that are discussed above as fact are in reality conjectured. Thousands of years of shoeing horses shows that, without any doubt, a horse can wear shoes through out his whole working life yet maintain a completely functional (I think the best definition of healthy) foot. Anyone who has dealt with horses on any level for anytime is likely to personally know dozens of such horses. In spite of this common knowledge we hear some fairly extreme thoughts on the practice of shoeing.

I think it is wise to go shoeless when you can but if you can't a good farrier can keep your horses feet healthy and pain free. For more on all this see the hoof care section (Horse Care » Hoof Care, Hoof Trimming, Shoeing Horses ») where we discuss many of these issues including foot circulation in the Overview and 4 Point Trim article.
DrO
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 - 8:43 am:

Miriam,

My husband says he can always tell what my latest "passion" is, we start getting lots of books from Amazon, all about that new subject I am involved in, and new whatchamakalits, and thingamabobs, and dodads start appearing, lol! (of course, he probably wishes I would have stuck with raising birds, instead keeping horses,$$$)

As everyone knows on HA, I am a fan of barefoot, and anything "Natural" that is HEALTHY, and makes sense. I haven't had a thin soled horse, or a horse with any hoof/lameness problems for years, so I can't say that I would never consider shoes if that kept the horse comfortable.

I think we are lucky that technology has given us shoes that are not the heavy metal lugs they used to be, and we have options with boots, pads, and stuff to patch the hoof.

As for shoes, well, I personally like my shoes to flex, but my foot needs to flex the while being supported. Many argue that we should go barefoot as much as possible too! (Try that in the winter in Upper MI, lol!) A hoof is hard, but we know there is flexation there too. But the horse don't need Reebox, or Nike, yet I can see how something solid would not be in the horses best interest.

Stay passionate, keep an open mind is my motto now, and I'll let DrO be the voice of reason as always.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 - 9:39 am:

Wondered if any of you have tried to find shoes like these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1i8gMqbvB4&NR=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrk5WO2ny9Q
Member:
dres

Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 - 9:53 am:

Guy that is the web site i referred to in my post above.. I do use these shoes on my gelding, he has terrible front hoofs, from a avulsion fracture of the navicular bone on his left to a extensor processor fracture on the right/buttress shape hoof on that one.. and ring/side bone on both hoofs! He is moving well with these shoes without bute as i said above..
Horse picture is in my profile..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
huf5

Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 - 4:36 pm:

beautiful horse Ann!!
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 - 9:08 pm:

Ann, Miriam,
I contacted John Bell at Tenderhoof Solutions about two months ago after I saw that video. The Yasha shoes, as I understand, all have the cushion. They bond them to any commercial shoe you select.

The flexible, spring steel shoes, are a European racing plate for Harness Racing.

They were not available in a small size for my Thoroughbred. He is currently has 00 Victory Elite shoes on, with a pad for crushed heels.

Ann, were you able to find shoes this small? Where?
Member:
dres

Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2008 - 10:04 pm:

Guy, JB is a very helpful man.. heck no! My horse wears a size 3! So have not even tried to find something that small.. LOL.. I am very happy with the product and the service of this small company / that is expanding.. I found him doing research about BIG BROWN the race horse..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 30, 2008 - 4:10 pm:

I think the Yasha shoe is quite interesting and I am going to order a pair for one of my horses ( standardbred). As far as the Racer shoe from Europe, that is interesting too. The only downside (and this is from a farrier that has to deal with them) is that they are very tough on the anvil when you have to shape them.

Rachelle
Member:
huf5

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 31, 2008 - 12:27 pm:

Hi Ann,
just to comment on the extensive injuries your horse had suffered, would I not be sure either that going barefoot and being a performance horse (as it appears from your profile pic) would be wise.
This is certainly not something I have come across yet, but I appreciate you sharing this with us, because as mentioned before there are always exceptions and I certainly would consider this to be one.
Thank you
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