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Discussion on Alfalfa pellet substitute
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 8:12 am:
Dr.O. I have been giving the horses alfalfa pellets for their "grain" it has been perfect for them, they like them, high protein, low carbs. I can't find any with in a 50 mi. radius of here. They have the cubes, but they are hard as bricks, I tried them last year, soaked 24 hrs. and for the most part they were still hard as bricks! I soak the horses "feed" due to prior choke problems.
I tried beet bulp last year, but the horses seemed to gain weight on it and the geldings weren't real fond of it.
I feel I need to feed them something low carb with adequate protein, as their hay is stemmy grass hay, and we enjoy the "feed" times.
I have seen bags of whole cleaned oats "race horse oats" brand I believe. Would something like that be a good substitute? I would like to stay away from feed with molasses if possible. I did see Manna Pro that you mention in the article in a store, but that seems pretty loaded with molasses.
OR does anyone know how to get the cube bricks soft...short of a hammer? It was hot water I soaked them in.
Thanks
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 9:35 am:
Gosh, Diane. I've never had any trouble at all getting the alfalfa cubes to soften with soaking. I'm doing it for two horses now, in fact. I add enough water to cover, and they just GROW and flake apart. With some of the really long cubes, (I guess they aren't really "cubes" if they are long) I break them apart to make them smaller. I use hot water and cover them, and 10-15 minutes later, they are "poofy." Mine are Canadian or Wyoming or Colorado alfalfa cubes. The feed store changes brands as they need to.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 9:45 am:
Holly all that is available around here is the Standlee brand they are long and really are hard as brick...they shine they are so compressed. No way can you break them apart with your hand.!
We used to have the Ontario brand and they were easily soaked to mush...but I can't find any of them either
I wonder if covering them would help after pouring the hot water on them...I don't do that. HMMM might be worth a try. Steamed hay!!!
Thanks
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 1:57 pm:
The Standlee brand soaks great-- I have my toothless Cushings pony living on them. I set it up the feeding before. When it's cold, I set the bucket on a heated poultry base, and when it's below 10'F at night, I bring them in the house. Holly's right that they GROOOW. They probably take half an hour to soften up, if you're in a hurry.
I got a deal on a pallet of the Standlee cubes this summer, and love them. No waste at all, and they seem to have consistent quality and virtually no dust.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 3:09 pm:
GEES we must get the rejects then, because this stuff doesn't soak down. I was soaking it between feedings about 10 hrs and 14 hrs. overnight. I do love their pellets, they are soft I soak them but probably don't need too.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 4:03 pm:
Hi Diane. I use the Standlee brand of beet pulp pellets and find that I have to add hot water and soak them the full 11 hours between feedings or they don't completely break down. I headed out to feed the other morning and realized that I was a terrible horse mom and had forgotten to soak the beet pulp pellets. I decided I could either skip it (that wouldn't go over well) or I could try to get them soaked and just feed a little later. I added boiling water and within about 45 minutes they were almost completely broken down. It might be worth a shot to add boiling water to the alfalfa pellets and still let them soak between feedings.
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Member:
digger89
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 - 5:28 pm:
I used to get the hard shiny cubes too. I found that breaking them up with a hammer and screwdriver (or chisel) into small "slices" of cube worked well and allowed them to be soaked more easily. Good luck! Sarah
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 - 7:18 am:
Oats and alfalfa should not be considered equivalent feeds. For more on this see the article and compare the values. Diane, you should be able to order alfalfa pellets from the local feed stores.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 - 8:20 am:
I did ask if I could order some, or at least when more would be arriving. They said they just get them when the co. sends them and there is nothing they can do about it.. I still have enough pellets for a couple weeks, then I guess I'll try the "bricks" Thanks
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Member:
wgillmor
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Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 - 10:21 am:
Diane,
Did you try to contact the manufacturer of your pellets? They may be willing to ship directly to you, hurry up the delivery to your local supplier or point you to another supplier.
Good Luck,
Wiley
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 - 8:10 pm:
Wiley, I took a look at their website, found the list of suppliers in my area, and there are only 2! I don't think they would bother with me I only go through a bag a mo. about.
Does anyone know who else makes pellets other than Standlee?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 - 6:03 am:
Dr.O. I see oats have approx 12% protein. For my horses that would be enough wouldn't it? The pellets I am using are 16% or do you see a different problem if I were to feed them? They wouldn't be getting a lot, maybe a cup a feeding.
I do have some small square bales of hay with alfalfa, but it is buried under my grass hay, I can't quite get to it yet.
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 8:33 am:
Whether this decrease in protein is important depends on the protein available from your hay Diane, which is the biggest source of protein. The article on forages discusses this in assessing quality. Oats are also a higher energy feed and the energy derived from starch, essentially a sugar. You should also note that there will be substantial differences in the weight of a cup of oats and pellets.
DrO
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 9:25 pm:
I have always used oats as one of my last-resort feeds for hopelessly hard keepers (all have been aged TBs). I know you struggle with weight on these horses-- is it necessary to supplement the hay beyond a mineral block?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2009 - 9:44 pm:
I have never had my hay tested, but I do suspect it "lacks" it is stemmy, over ripe, pure grass hay. I'm not good at identifying grass but if I HAD to guess it consists of rye and "water grass" not sure of the proper term for that! Just the fact that they eat on that bale all day and have free choice at night and are not gaining weight says something . The alfalfa pellets are perfect for a supplemental feed, along with a vit/min supp.
They do not get a lot of alfalfa pellets...a double handful per feeding, which I weighed once and comes to about 1/4 lb. per day.
I was just looking at feed available around here and I guess I'll go back to Safechoice 14% protein. I just have been trying to stay away from anything with molasses I really hated the "brick cubes" it was almost as if that shiny outer layer made them waterproof.
I'm more concerned about protein than anything. A couple winters ago when their protein lacked they started eating their own feces and the cows feces
Haven't had that problem since starting the pellets.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2009 - 9:01 am:
We should note that the small amount of molasses added to grain based feeds to bind the additives and prevent them from sifting out is not a big deal for most horses and the "sugars" in the grain far exceed the amount of calories than the molasses.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 16, 2009 - 6:58 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I guess the thing that confuses me is the safechoice is also grain based + molasses. Last I saw it was actually pretty high in sugar and starches...higher then my horses need anyway! I used to feed Safechoice, and problem hooved Hank didn't do well with it, or I should say he did too well as far as weight gain and I didn't feed much. The Recommendations on Safechoice are quite high.
I guess until I can find some hay pellets it will have to do, I can't come up with anything else that is low sugar and starch yet try to meet their protein requirements...around here anyway!
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Friday, Jan 16, 2009 - 7:33 am:
A suggestion:
Do you have an Orscheln's store near you?
They carry a brand of feed called "Country Lane." The bags I get are 40# and do carry the "Orscheln's" name. I get a "12% Complete pellet WITH roughage." to supplement the prairie grass hay that is available here in Kansas. It is not a sticky pellet as some of the senior feeds are. 9 of the 11 horses have been on the Orscheln's pellet for three years and all of them look good. When they were just on the hay, they all lost weight.
I also feed out Safe Choice in combination with a Senior feed to two of my old guys. The senior tends to "freeze up" in cold weather due to it's higher moisture (molasses?) content, but the Safe Choice stays dry and loose, although the Safe Choice does have the anise smell and is more expensive than the Orscheln's complete pellet. You can contact Orscheln's and find out where their mill is located. Maybe there is something similar in your area.
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Friday, Jan 16, 2009 - 7:41 am:
Also, Diane,
In California and here in Kansas we have local mills that will make pellets from one's own hay/alfalfa/etc. and will add additional protein or supplements as required by the customer. The mills also make their own pellets (with varying degrees of protein) that can be purchased in bulk or in bags and the savings, even with transportation, are considerable. Do you have a local mill within an hour from you?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 16, 2009 - 8:22 am:
Diane, can you list all the ingredients in order of there appearance on the tag?
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 16, 2009 - 9:08 am:
Yes I have an old tag from a bag
1st thing listed is
Grain products
Plant protein products
Processed grain by products
Roughage products
Forage Products
( I wonder what these products are?)
Then it goes on to list all the vit. supp.
and at the end it has corn oil and soybean oil
I don't see molasses listed, I have read that Safechoice is as high as 27% NSC's and as low as 18% I suppose what "products" they use can make a difference.
Holly we used to have mills near by, but they closed down years ago.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Jan 16, 2009 - 10:28 am:
Ugh, Diane, it drives me mad trying to determine what the heck is actually in processed feeds. I was looking to switch to a pelleted feed a while back and emailed several different companies looking for more info on what was in their product and what the NSC's were. I emailed each company twice and got zero replies.
A complete feed might be the best way to go for you rather than a concentrate .. not sure what brands are in your area but the complete feeds have roughage included so I would think couldn't be too bad when fed in smaller amounts. Though if your main concern is keeping protein levels up they might not make the grade.
I wonder if you could feed something like that and top-dress it with a protein supplement like soybean meal? Or maybe offer a protein block like Ultralyx? I haven't fed one of those myself but it might meet your needs. I found a place online that sells them here:
https://www.ablackhorse.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=5599&idcategory= 0
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 - 7:47 am:
All we have in our area is Nutrena, that's all I have seen anyway. Our local store is actually a hardware store that carries some horse and cow stuff.
The bigger cities north and west of us also carry only Nutrena, so I guess that's what I'm stuck with. There is a feed store in town, but they only cater to cattle farmers...no horse feed at all, they carry Purina brand stuff. I could possibly get him to order me something if Purina has something better. I think they also have Cargill brand. Seems to me I asked about ordering beet pulp once and he didn't want to order just a bag of something. I guess I can ask again next time I'm there. Hubby gets protein pellets for the calves there, but I'm pretty sure he said the horses couldn't have them for some reason.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 17, 2009 - 5:49 pm:
I had to go to the hardware store(feed store) today and lo and behold they had 6 bags of pellets...which are now in my basement . Couldn't have timed it better!
I am still curious as to if the safechoice with it's grain and grain by products is any better than straight oats? As far as NSC's anyway.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 19, 2009 - 7:27 am:
Though the ingredient list seems designed to obfuscate almost all of the oats energy is derived from starch, whereas the Safe Choice contains added forage and oil. So compared on a calorie by calorie basis the Safe Choice should be lower in NSC. Whether it is a significant amount is hard to say with the information we have here.
DrO
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