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Discussion on Supplements? Do I need them
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 12:38 pm:
Hi all,
I have succumbed to the whole supplement thing, but now I'm not sure whether they need them at all. They both get Safe Choice 2x a day and free choice good quality grass hay.
I was giving Rosie Smartpak joint supplement since when I bought her she had slight DJD in both front fetlocks so the vet said put her on Cosequin which I did but then I switched since most of the Cosequin was left behind. I also gave her Grand Hoof Complete and Relaxher Blend for calming and seasonal issues. (I believe that works). Since I wanted to reduce supplements I have her on 4 in 1 HA which is coat, hoof, digestive, glucosamine, MSM and HA. Since Safe Choice is a complete feed is this excessive and should I just get a good joint supplement, even then my other vet who did x-rays said her joints were fine with a tiny bit of wear right for her age?
They are both healthy horses and have no health issues. I don't give Monty any supplements and she's great.
please be brutally honest with me....
thanks
Adria
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 1:02 pm:
I think DrO article says if you need to supplement give generic brand HUMAN supplements. Its way cheaper and you will get a much better quality supplement...and whilst human supplements are not controlled by FDA but there are some standards due to the fact its for human consumption.
Costco makes bulk generic joint supplements. Ive used them in the past on a horse with problems.
I looked at the safe choice site and it looks like everything is already covered except a joint supplement. Im sure DrO will point you in the right direction.
Cheers
L
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 5:45 pm:
One thing to consider for any concentrate is the recommended feeding amount, I think that's what they use when they calculate whether the feed meets the horse's nutritional needs. Some of them are in the 5-10 pounds a day range which is way more than my horses need.
Also the nutritional content of the hay you are feeding needs to be taken into account. In most cases good quality, fresh hay is sufficient on it's own. However if you get your hay from an area that is for example selenium deficient you need to supplement for that.
I feed a general multivitamin/mineral supplement 'just in case' at half the recommended dosage as we feed very little concentrate and have excellent quality grass hay. I also feed alfalfa pellets for protein, beet pulp for extra high energy fiber in the winter months, and rice bran for extra fat and to balance the extra calcium provided by the alfalfa and beet pulp. So I'm a bad example of keeping it simple!
I can't speak to the other things you are supplementing for (joint, digestive, coat) as I've read so many articles that contradict each other I have no idea whether they work or not. I do however feed MSM after an injury or when a horse is in hard training.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 8:06 pm:
I am not sure I agree SafeChoice is a complete feed. I feed a small amount (1/2 of a 13 oz coffee can) and add a multi vitamin. 2 of my horses get Aniflex complete joint supplement.
I agree with what Shannon said above; and taking that into account, you'd be money ahead to just feed a small amount of SafeChoice, and the bare minimal vitamins/minerals. I think it'd take a lot of SafeChoice to meet the daily minimal requirements.
The only reason I am feeding the vitamins now is because our hay was pretty brown again last year; 2nd very dry summer.
I need to make sure their daily amount of selenium is met here also.
Also, a friend of mine who is taking the NRC(?) class on equine nutrition says the following:
Test your hay.
And all horses need more salt than they can get from a mineral or salt block. So I add a tablespoon of salt to their feed daily.
I think a person can go nuts trying to keep it all straight, there are contradictions, new info, and an endless supply of super duper gotta have supplements to lighten your pocket book.
My theory is KISS: Keep it simple stupid! (calling myself that, no one else!)
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 22, 2009 - 8:28 pm:
Hmmm . . . I thought that it wasn't recommended to put salt in the feed. When it's in there, the horses can't get away from it. I figured if there is a magnesium salt block, then that is enough. I know that we can give Lite Salt after rigorous exercise to help prevent tying up . . . so should we be giving loose salt in the feed?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 8:49 am:
Salt: The comment I got was "all horses need more salt than they can get from a salt/mineral block" I guess I wasn't taking into account what's in concentrates because I feed so little of them, but you do make a valid point.
So we are back to KISS; and looking at the whole picture to make sure we're not going overboard on any supplements.
I'll see what else my friend has learned, and if the requirements for salt have recently changed.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 9:07 am:
Thought I'd better go back and reread my email on salt.
From the NRC course my friend said she learned the most important thing is to have base from which to work from. Otherwise you add imbalance to imbalance. Start with getting hay tested. One thing that is ALMOST ALWAYS certain is horses don't get enough salt from a salt block. One oz, (1 tablespoon) per horse per day is a good average. Then adjust supplements per horses stage of life, and work load, special needs.
Now, I am sure DrO will set me straight on anything not correct,
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Member:
noah
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 9:13 am:
I was glad to see Shannon's post as that is almost exactly what I determined my 24 yr old TB needed. Don't know if my proportions are right. I feed about 2 lbs Pennfield Senior, handful of dry beet pulp, 1/4 cup alfalfa pellets soaked in 1 cup water, 2 cups rice bran pellets and BL (bute-less) pellets; orchard grass/alfalfa hay in the morning, timothy hay at night and he's out on winter pasture 24/7 (stalled for meals). I feel like I may be throwing the works at him in the hopes that he's getting what he needs. Also, free choice loose mineral salt, but will wait for more discussion on adding it to the feed before I do that.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 9:47 am:
Adria, we give a very clear explanation of whether you need supplements in the Golden Rule in the Overview of Nutrition. Review the article carefully it will answer your question in detail.
Testing hay is problematic in that to get accurate results requires a great deal of time and effort (core sampling of many bales, aggregated, mixed, packaged and mailed) and expense. And the values may all change when the next bale comes along. Even when hay comes from the same field there can be remarkable differences between the middle of the field and the edge of the field. Learn to evaluate hay by its appearance (we have articles on this) and most importantly feed your horse by looking at him, not by the values on a sheet of paper. I know this runs counter to what just about every "nutritionist" recommends but having been responsible for the health of thousands of horses over the years, this has always worked well for me. Testing hay becomes worthwhile when you are buying many tons and feeding many dozens of head but hard to justify for your first 10 horses. Another reason to test might be unexpected problems that might be nutritionally related. However this is a rare condition as most areas that have such problems are fairly well characterized.
Horses do get adequate salt (sodium chloride) from a salt block. Unlike the other required minerals, salt is the one mineral for which they have a built in "sensor" which tells them when they need salt. If you partially satisfy this need by putting regular salt in the feed you create less desire for the trace mineral salt block and may create deficiencies of these important trace minerals. You can supplement salt and minerals by placing a loose trace mineral salt in the feed you just want to keep it at a reasonable level, the overview article has more on all of this and will link you to the article on salts and minerals which goes into even greater detail.
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 23, 2009 - 11:51 am:
DrO,
What you say makes tons of sense to me. I've been thinking about this concept of testing the hay; and thought just how do I test when there are over 700 bales, from various fields, baled at different times? I figure if I take hay from different parts of the barn, I am mixing it up, and the horses are probably getting good amounts of various nutrients.
Thank you for being the voice of reason & knowledge! (of course huh?!)
BTW, FYI, the horses are not crazy about the salt in their feed, so I have been questioning the "experts" advice, but wanted to put that out there to see what feedback I got. My friends email is down again, but I am curious to see what else she is learning.
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2009 - 8:44 pm:
Thanks all for the insights, and thanks DrO for clarifying the salt needs and also the hay testing. I would also think that some years the hay would be worse or better than others, depending on rain etc.
Back to the Golden Rule.
I may just get Rosie on a good joint supp. and go from there. Even then I get so confused looking at all of them. MSM or no, HA or no. How much Gluc. and Chond?
The highest levels or a minimal. Maybe I should take her off them and see if she gets worse or stays the same.
Gosh! I'm trying to KISS! I just don't want to throw a bunch of stuff at them they don't need.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 10:54 am:
Adria,
What I did regarding the joint supplement: I gave it 6 weeks to work, and watched for improvement, and listened! My coming 20 year old Arab mare definately has some noisy joints when she's not on the supplement. And I can see she's stiff when moving. She also has low ringbone.
I start with the loading dose, and then taper off to the maintenance dose. She's only rode lightly and occasionally by my 14 year old daughter, so it's more about keeping her comfortable and slowing down the problems.
I DID NOT have good luck with the MVP brand, think the 4 in 1 it was called. I did NOT have good luck with the Bute less stuff helping.
I tried the Aniflex GL, which does not have the chonDrOitin or HA. I didn't think it helped as much as the Aniflex Complete.
DrO has the doseages on here I think; and explains the glucosamine & chonDrOitin.
The Aniflex Complete has:
Glucosamine: 5000mg/oz
ChonDrOitin: 2075mg/oz
MSM: 1765 mg/oz
Hyaluroinc Acid: 50mg/oz
And: yucca, vit C, Vit E, bioflavonoids, creatine, minerals, amino acids.
www.horsehealthusa.com has a wonderful comparison chart on all the different joint sups. And usually the best price on this one.
Just my experience.
A question for you:
What is in the Relaxer Blend? And where do you get it? I have another mare, who's 6, and she shows some respiratory troubles every spring. Seems to be because the hay is oldest then, maybe because they are in a mud area it's just plain a yucky time of year.
Do you feed it year round?
Thanks.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 11:36 am:
Adria, you will find our specific recommendations on all these questions at, Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Glucosamine, ChonDrOitin Sulfate, and their use in Arthritis.
DrO
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 2:36 pm:
DrO
Do you still recommend the human generic supplements? I just read the Glucosamine, ChonDrOitin Sulfate, and their use in Arthritis)but didnt see it.
Thanks
Leslie
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2009 - 4:28 pm:
Adria,
I like to keep it simple also as I could go really crazy and I used to with the supplements. My feed tubs at night used to look like a rainbow, blue for sodium iodide powder, orange for electrolytes, white for salt etc. But that was many years ago. Supplements have come a long way.
I have standardbred racehorses that are racing, training, jogging and shipping just about every day, so I would say they are on a heavy work schedule. They are very fit, but not fat, you ca n not see their ribs. I consider them to be in perfect race horse shape. They have enough flesh on them at all time so that the rigors of racing do not take their toll. Their performance on the track is appropriate for where they are in their careers ( the colt is three and just started racing, the mare is 4 and has about 30 starts. I have tried just about every supplement over the years and just about every type of feed.
My horses ( both of them) get 9 lbs of pelleted feed a day. 4 1/2 lbs Equine Adult (Purina Complete feed) and 4 1/2 lbs of Ultium ( Purina, made for performance horses). In three feedings spaced 6 hours apart. They get all the grass hay they can eat. They get a scoop of garlic, a joint supplement called OCD pellets and I have been adding a tablespoon of Molasses to their nighttime feeding, not so much for the flavor but for the salt and mineral content. I tried the molasses in the water for a while, but then they did not want their regular water, so this works just as well and they still drink quite a bit of water. Thats it. They get nothing else. I've pulled bloodwork on them and everything is normal. They look good and act good and they do not get anything additional just because they are racehorses.
There are several reasons I use the OCD pellets. 1) Because they are pellets they mix well with my pelleted feed. 2)They are relatively inexpensive when you figure that I do not use anything else with them ( cost =1.50 per day/per horse on maintenance dose). 3)My horses seem to be much more resilient, with less bone, joint and tendon problems resulting in requiring no injected joints in the two 1/2 years I have been using this product. 4) It takes a very short time (less than three weeks) to see a difference even in older horses. These are my observations with this particular supplement, so I would definitely recommend it.
Here is the web site in case you are interested www.ocdpellets.com. They have a buy one get one free special for new customers.
I wish you and your horses well.
Rachelle
PS I do not get anything for recommending OCD pellets, I just really like the product.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2009 - 11:53 am:
With vitamins I always recommend human products with the joint nutraceuticals I am more ambivalent but do recommend if you use a horse product stick with very well known and respected companies. One study found many did not contain the stated amount of stuff. You may find if you compare this with human generic however that you can find some human products that are more economical.
Concerning OCD prevention products as long as horses are receiving good nutrition there is no "good" scientific work that these are of any benefit.
DrO
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 28, 2009 - 7:34 am:
I had a whole post written and then lost it because I hadn't logged in, argh.
Rachelle, I'll look into the OCD pellets, I do want pellets since the powder gets left behind.
Angie, RelaxHer Blend is an herbal supp. for mares in season, it has valerian, black cohosh to mention a few. For Rosie it seems to work.
DrO are you saying that the joint nutraceuticals have not been proven to delay or prevent the progression of joint disease?
I think I'll take her off and see if she changes for the worse. Then go from there.
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 29, 2009 - 9:12 am:
No, that is not what I am saying though that is essentially true, see article on joint nutraceuticals for more. I am saying, as long as horses are receiving good nutrition supplements have not been shown to prevent or lessen the severity of osteochonDrOsis.
DrO
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