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  Discussion on Handgun Euthanasia-- humanity and targetting
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Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 12:35 pm:

Not for the squeamish.

Like many on this boards, I'm in hard economic times. Also like many, I have retired horses in various stages of decay. My aged gelding had had a very difficult winter, and is increasingly painful and depressed (he has 4 beat-to-heck legs, and other age-related problems). I believe he does not have many or any really comfortable days left. It would be much more affordable for me to put him down with my own handgun than to bring out the vet, but I need to be certain this is a fair option to him. I understand the safety concerns for myself and others (including him).

The purpose of this post is to solicit Dr.O's feedback on 2 questions. I have edited a photo to clarify the second question-- don't read further if a target on a horse's face is going to upset or offend you.

1) How do you assess the relative humanity of planned euthanasia by sedative drugs and planned euthanasia competently performed by handgun?

2) Elsewhere on the boards you describe the method for determining the correct entry point for the bullet. This is identical to the method described to me by others, but I want to be certain I have understood. Does the following graphic accurately capture your meaning? (This is not the horse in question)

Member:
tamarag

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 12:50 pm:

Please make sure you get the right area. This is what happened in our part of the country. So very sad
https://www.ktvz.com/Global/story.asp?S=9203187
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 12:56 pm:

Elizabeth,

I can't answer your questions but do admire the fact that you want to do the right thing for your old guy. Also, there may be another option. I have recently read that there are several rescue groups that will offer reduced cost / no cost euthanasia for those facing difficult situations such as yours. They work with local vets and the rescues will cover some or all of the costs and reimburse reduced fees that the vets have agreed to. I will try to dig through some newsletters that have piled up to see if I can find out who offers the option. You may also want to run an internet search. It may have been Front Range Equine rescue that offers this, but I don't remember for sure which group it was.

One other thing to consider: even if you can handle a gun well, have you thought of the emotional toll it might take on you? I've often said I'd rather shoot my beloved horse than let her suffer, but I have to wonder if I could live with myself afterwards, even though intellectually it would be the right thing to do.
Member:
warthog

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 1:49 pm:

One other option is to learn how to give an IV injection yourself. since a friend travels with horses a lot they were able to get a cocktail that a vet told them would do the job in case of an auto wreck where a horse was catastrophically injured and needed to be put down. they carried this injection with them.

wranglers who take groups out into the wilderness also have to fact this problem on occasion but I'd be very careful, before I used a pistol, to check the laws, because in some states it is illegal to euthanize your own horse by any method and in some states, I suspect they enforce this law.
Member:
stevens

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 3:03 pm:

elk,

There was an indepth article on this subject in Horse and Rider years ago. I believe that your diagram is consistent with what they published.

I greatly admire you and your preparation for the worse. I know that when I was waiting for the vet to come and end my horse's suffering I wished that I had had a gun to put him down.

Here's a link to a UC Davis article on the subject.
https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/INF-AN/INF-AN_EMERGEUTH-HORSES.HTML

The only state laws I could find easily regarding equine euthanasia was that allowing officers to euthanize a horse without the consent of the owner under certain circumstance. Of course, local gun laws will apply.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 3:33 pm:

Euthanasia with drugs also raises the question of proper handling of the remains so that wildlife, such as birds of prey (including eagles) do not ingest poisons while doing their job. There are laws about this in some states.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 4:41 pm:

Elizabeth, I used to do a lot of BACK country riding and asked my vet about shooting a horse. He said he had personally treated a mare that had been shot SEVEN times! The brain is so small, it's easy to miss. He explained that the slant of the skull must be accounted for or the bullet doesn't go straight in, but glances off a bit. He gave me a dose of a sedative to carry and explained (READ NO FURTHER IF YOU'RE SQUEAMISH) that while the horse was sedated I was to take a sharp pocket knife, open it and hold it in my fist. Then I was to insert my hand and arm as far as possible in the rectum and make a sweeping over hand cut slicing the wall of the rectum and apparently a large vein which would cause the horse to bleed out in about 30 minutes, hopefully while still somewhat sedated. Thank goodness the need never arose, because I could not have done this. My point really is that if you decide to shoot, account for the slant of the skull as you aim.
Member:
imogen

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 4:51 pm:

I would point out that hunts who are usually licensed to slaughter horses for economic reasons and also collect farm casualties etc. use a humane killer which is a form of captive bolt system precisely because using a handgun or shotgun is not considered sufficiently reliable - that's why it's called a "humane" killer.

Idea excellent, Elizabeth - but not sure you could be sure enough to go further. I think you should request assistance from a charity arranging welfare euthanasia.

Good luck whatever your decision

Imogen
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 5:46 pm:

Elizabeth,

An older book I have by Robert Miller, DVM, shows the ends of the X ending at the inside corner of the eyes.

I am sorry you are even having to consider this, reading your post brought knots to my stomach remembering gunshots when one of ours broke his leg. My husband said NEVER AGAIN ASK HIM TO do that. And he's a hunter who has no qualms about shooting animals.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 5:50 pm:

Wow guys, an intense conversation. First let me say I would only recommended this be attempted by the inexperienced in emergency situations or when veterinary help cannot be obtained.

Second,standing behind a sedated horse with your hand up the rectum with a knife attempting to sweep the aorta is very far out there. Remember many common sedatives actually predispose to kicking out violently. Please don't ever attempt this. If you must euthanize a very heavily sedated or comatose horse the only way that makes sense to me is to open the jugular vein "length wise" with a very sharp knife. And I disagree that the brain is hard to hit if you follow the recommendations exactly.

Elk the only problem with your diagram is that the lines need to be drawn from the outside edge of the ear to the outside border of the eyes. This will lower the site just a bit and probably not significantly effect the result but let's do it just right. Be sure the gun is perpendicular to the skull. Chris's link is very helpful.

I personally think that a well placed shot with a high power 22 like a "Stinger" is less stressful to the horse than phenobarbital anesthesia. Larger calibers might be messy. With a pistol one moment the horse is standing and a millisecond later the horse is dead. There is no reaction from the horse at all to the shot. There may be unconscious "breaths" but this is reflexive actions of the diaphragm to the lowering blood oxygen levels. Before burying you should verify the heart has stopped and there is no pupillary or palpebral reflex: the pupil should not react to a bright light and the lid should not move when the surface of the eye touched.
DrO
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 6:22 pm:

Thank you everyone, and especially DrO. I certainly appreciate all of your thoughts and suggestions. I will draw my lines adjusted to your guidelines Dr.O. Thanks.

A comment on the bolt gun-- my understanding is that these are used because they are safer in close quarters (around people and animals, as well as inside buildings). They pose the same targeting challenge as a handgun, but will not shoot out the neighbor's windows etc.. I think they also tend to get people less excited (at least in much of the US) than pulling the trigger on Trigger. Fortunately I live in a rural community where people are familiar with guns and with large animals, and the laws take that into account.
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 8:42 pm:

Elizabeth,
I have often wondered if I could shoot my own horses if I ever needed to do so. I certainly have put several of them down for different reasons. I am think if I saw one suffering, I might be able to shoot it. Like you, I'd want to be certain that my shooting didn't increase the suffering.

I hope you won't have to do it, but if you do decide it's time, would it help to be able to do it with the horse sedated? Can you get a sedative and keep it around for something like this?

I admire your strength and resolve.
Member:
lindas

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 9:48 pm:

I did not think I could euthanize one of my own animals, but I did when my cat was suffering on the treatment table with a blood clot to both his back legs. He was in horrible pain and crashing quickly. I knew that my efforts to save him would fail, and I considered euthanizing him my final act of love for him. I do this every day, but it is different when it is your own. It is amazing what we all can do when we need do. The horse I grew up with broke his leg badly when he was 30 years old. Piper and I were the same age, and we had grown up together. He was in horrible pain and I was at my parents house, 200 miles from my clinic, so I had no euthanasia solution. If I had not been able to get a veterinarian out within an hour or so I would have borrowed my father's gun and taken him out of his misery.

If you ever need to do this, like Dr. O says, make sure the gun is at a 90 degree angle, perfectly perpendicular to the skull or the bullet may bounce through the sinuses. BTW you can use this same model for cattle for those of you who have cows.
Member:
lindas

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 9:52 pm:

Holly, if you have a good relationship with your veterinarian you can probably purchase a bottle of acepromazine from him/her. It is not a controlled drug, and is a great drug to use to just calm a horse down for any number of reasons. If you need to really have them zonked you just give them a little more. Since it can be used in a variety of situations it would not go to waste. That is what I would recommend unless Dr. O has a better suggestion.
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2009 - 11:05 pm:

Dear Elizabeth, I am sorry you have to consider this option.
I have been in a similar situation on a few occasions when we had pet sheep.
I became more practiced but never more used to it.

It seems like a tranq first might be a good idea.
Do you have someone who could be with you? At least wait at the house for you?
There are many things I would like to say but none of them seem adequate.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 28, 2009 - 6:36 am:

Elizabeth, hubby had to shoot one of our horses years ago due to a snow storm and the vet couldn't make it out. He gave hubby instructions on how to do it and it went well. He said he could never do that again and like Angies hubby he loves hunting and shooting things, he don't even like my horses, but he said it was not fun and something he will remember forever.

I don't know how much it costs to euth a horse anymore, but wouldn't your vet let you make payments? Ours will let people pay $10 a month as long as there is an effort being made they are happy.

Tough decision, I hope things go well for you.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 28, 2009 - 7:46 am:

I agree there are advantages to sedation. A big dose, say 6 cc / 1000lb, of acepromazine IM 30 minutes prior to the process. With a tall horse and a short person the head would be lowered making targeting easier. In the case of a nervous or suspicious horse there will not be as much reaction to the new situation of having a gun held to his head.
DrO
Member:
dtranch

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 7:31 am:

I just had to put my 28 year old quarter horse down on Christmas Day. He had fallen on the ice and apparently been down for most of the night. He appeared to be in shock, and all attempts to get him up or comfort him failed. He was my "buddy" and I couldn't let him suffer any more. I euthanized with my hand gun as described above. One shot well placed, and the suffering was over immediately.

This was very hard to do, but looking in his eyes and watching him suffer was harder. I knelt down and said a prayer, then did what I had to do. Needless to say, I did not eat Christmas dinner that day.

This is something I think all horse owners should be aware of and know how to do correctly in an emergency. I also hope none of you ever have to actually do it.

DT
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 8:48 am:

My condolences Dennis and let everyone realize the most dangerous thing about the winter and horses is a broken leg on ice. I have seen it a half-dozen times.
DrO
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 9:34 am:

Dennis - so sorry you had to go through this - What a hero your horse had for an owner.
Cheryl
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 9:57 am:

Dennis - my condolences. It is a good thing you knew how to end your horse's suffering.
What a sad Christmas for you.
Lilo
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 10:06 am:

I am so sorry Denny. I believe that our horses go to a better place, and that they love us even more for making the hard choices.

Angie
Member:
canter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 10:24 am:

Denny, I'm so very sorry to hear about your loss. Despite being the right thing to do, it must have been horrendously difficult. I hope you've found some comfort in knowing that you ended your horse's distress as humanely and quickly as you could.
Member:
gr8care

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 11:00 am:

Dennis, the loss of a friend is numbing, whether animal or human. Tough decisions require tough love. It's a gracious act to put our partners down with dignity.

Elk, we have euthanized our aged horses by scheduling with our veterinarian. BUT, when no vet was available, in an emergency situation, we fortunately had my husband capable of ending the suffering with a single, well-placed small caliber bullet (.38 in this case). He has extensive firearms training, but he was even nervous with all the pressure to make certain it was done correctly.

As DrO mentioned, our placement of the bullet was a little lower placed than where your drawing intersects. In our case, one shot and it was instantly over. Absolutely, no movement upon impact. I have to say that it was just as humane--maybe more so--than the use of the injection by the vet.

You might check, if there is a veterinary school fairly close, and ask if you can donate the horse specifically for student instruction on proper euthanasia.

I am so glad to see folks able to talk about the end of life with the same respect as any other time in life. What a great group!
Member:
shirl

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 11:46 am:

Dennis,
My condolences in your loss. What you did took courage, love and a lot of caring.
Shirl
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 11:52 am:

So very sorry, Den. We never expect the end to come like that, do we? You are a true cowboy.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 12:09 pm:

Very sorry to hear your story Dennis. I'm glad you had the means and the heart to respond quickly.
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 12:16 pm:

Ah Dennis so sorry to hear about your horse. It takes great inner strength to do such a difficult and selfless act.

Thank you also for sharing, I believe your sharing will one day strengthen someone reading this thread to do a difficult task.

Still thinking about you E, how are you?
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 12:16 pm:

So very sorry Dennis. What a hard thing to go through. I admire your courage and integrity. When the chips were down, you came through for your old friend. Sending healing thoughts for your heart and spirit.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 12:33 pm:

Denny sorry for the loss of your "buddy"
Member:
zarr

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 12:47 pm:

Dennis, I hope I'm as brave as you when the time comes it is my plan, hope I'm strong enough! I made a promise to each horse that they were here til the end !
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 4:31 pm:

Condolences for your loss, and I admire that you did what was painful and hard for you, but best for your beloved friend.
Member:
frances

Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2009 - 5:57 am:

Very sorry at what you had to go through, and well done for doing it.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Feb 1, 2009 - 11:04 am:

Dennis, I'm just now reading this thread. I'm so very sorry for what you had to go through during Christmas. It is like a horse owner's worst nightmare.
Member:
muffi

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 11:11 pm:

Ahh - man, sorry Denny thats not good to hear.
and you all that have ever had to are are currently reviewing your options, My sympathies.
and Yes EVERY DAY I worry about he Ice here Dr. O. My big old clutzy guy trips some times when I am running them. Today he ran over to the ice spot and slid out. My heard skipped a beat. but he came up like a champ with out any issues.
the Horse God must of been watching over him.
hang in there guys - you know when you are doing the right things.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2009 - 5:53 pm:

Dennis, I am so sorry that must have been very hard on you. I do admire you and feel that your horse was so lucky you could do for him what you did.
Condolences and respect
Jos
Member:
billkoch

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 7:50 pm:

I too had to put down my horse around
Christmas. I did the x from eye to ear and used a 40 cal pistol. It was hard but I didn't want the horse to suffer any longer. When I shot,the horse didn't move, so death was swift and the most humane way to end it's life. I would think a 22 even the magnum might be a somewhat light if the shot was off a little. The larger the bullet the more shock value you would get and a more sudden death.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 - 10:16 pm:

Very sorry to hear it William.

I'll post an update on my old man, since several folks have e-mailed me privately about him.

I moved him into the barn late winter to see if that would help make him more comfortable, which it did not. In the meantime, my vet came by for other reasons, and we got onto the topic of this old horse. She was supportive, but wondered if I would be willing to change my plans, to allow her new hire vet to be trained in neurectomy surgery technique and joint injections (this horse has no good leg joints left, and one remarkable knee). We blocked his feet to see how he responded, since the neurectomy is the only one of these procedures with a lasting result. The horse remained a 4/5 lame, but it was a cheerful animated 4/5 instead of his previous depressed gloom. He TROTTED off for the first time in years. So his training surgery is scheduled for next weekend.

At best, the surgery may salvage him for a longer retirement. If not, I know he had a great shot. And I am grateful grateful to my vet, who is essentially giving this horse $2K in free service (though having seen the new guy work, he needs the training).

My lesson so far is that it is best always to talk to other horse people about major horse decisions. I always learn something, and sometimes there is a completely unseen choice that makes more sense! Here's hoping my weird old dude gets some more good days. I will post about the surgery under the neurectomy section.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 5:41 am:

Elizabeth how nice of your vet! I hope your horse is able to be comfortable and enjoy life a little longer after his neurectomy. How old is he?? Looking forward to hearing how well he does.

Thanks for the update I was wondering how everything turned out.
Member:
mitch316

Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 6:35 am:

Just want to add that if you are in Kentucky, you can call the Department of Agriculture or the State Human Society and receive help with euthanasia. For what its worth, growing up on a Quarter Horse farm, I saw this quiet a few times, and my Dad was not fond of spending money on a horse that was dieing, so the weapon of choice was a 44 caliber pistol. He would always inject some kind of muscle relaxer so the horse was almost unconscious (don't remember what it was, but it was kept around for exams, breeding hostile mares, etc). It seemed easier on both the horse and person wielding the gun. A suggestion would be to have someone else do it for you if it was an animal you were close to. Like a barn raising, in Alabama, there is an unwritten rule that you help the neighboring farm in situations like this, so if there is someone else willing to do this, it might make it easier.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 9:31 am:

My condolences William I know how it is to pull that trigger.

Though this is continuing what is a very morbid post, we are here to educate. If such things leave you feeling faint or depressed best to turn back now.

William, having learned this from the local knackerman I have always used Stingers (a type of 22 Magnum) with excellent results. I have seen up to a 38 recommended and have heard larger calibers leave you with a mess but have no experience. Was this a messy euthanasia? Jesse what did you observe?
DrO
Member:
mitch316

Posted on Monday, Apr 6, 2009 - 11:35 am:

Dr. O, now that you mention it, the 44 caliber could be messy. It wasn't always, but often was. I called my Dad and asked him why a 44, and he said he just didn't want to take any chances of them surviving, which he had seen with a .17 caliber (though not a magnum). He agreed that it was messy sometimes and he tries to get the angle in such a way it doesn't penetrate all the way through. This is truly a morbid post, but I am actually using this to learn by as we are slowly getting us a horse farm started (though not a big outfit, by no means).

Using my military training here, a .22 is advantageous because the round is designed to stay "inside" the target, bouncing around off of bone and tendons to do as much damage as possible without the loud report of a larger caliber with improved accuracy. If you didn't know, the M16 and M4 rifles are .22 caliber (.223 to be exact) but with a lot bigger jacket than what is found on a standard .22. .38 and 9mm rounds are both considered to be "stopping" rounds, which mean they flatten on impact, with the intent on "knocking" the target down. The .17, .22, .27, and really all higher are considered "penetrating" rounds which do just that. .40 and above are designed to go "through" pulling as much inside out the exit area as possible.

Gruesome I know, but it makes a huge difference. If a .22 is going to bounce around, you want to make sure the first "bounce" is fatal so there would be no suffering. Really, it seems to be the owners pick of the lesser of several different evils. Hope this helps and was not too gruesome.
Member:
jynx2501

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 1:20 pm:

I am so very pleased to be a member of this group. You have shown time and again that the learning is the important factor, even when the subject is difficult.

I would like to mention the safety factor of not allowing your horse to land on you afterwards. We use the term "they DrOp" however, depending on their stance and balance, they can "DrOp" forward. Please be very careful.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 5:58 pm:

Sorry that you had to go through this, William but commend you for your strength in doing what was best for your horse.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 7:05 pm:

My condolences as well and may all of you whom have to make this decision for their suffering animal may you have strength in knowing you are ending pain and relief will soon be had.
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 8:28 am:

Yes, this thread is morbid, and at times even grotesque, but I sincerely applaud your courage in revisiting the miserable circumstances to teach us how to be better prepared. OF course we all pray we will never need this information, but...if it can happen to you, it can certainly happen to any one of us. Thank you all for your humanity and your fortitude.
Member:
billkoch

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 2:15 pm:

Dr. O....I'll try this again, 3rd time is the charm... I hope....On my horse, I used a 180 GR Jacketed Hollow Pt Subsonic 40 cal pistol round. I'm no expert on ballistics, but I think the subsonic round is loaded with less powder than a normal 40 cal pistol round with the same grain bullet.... There was little blood from the entrance hole in the horses head. I positioned the pistol so hopefully I would get some shock value into the neck by the spine after the bullet left the brain. There was no exit hole in the horse so all energy from the round was exhausted in the horses head/neck region. The horse never moved after the shot..... Hopefully I'll never have to do this again but if I do I'll opt for the same load,round and cal..... One thought on safety...don't let the muzzle touch the horse or there could be a mess with the shooter being hurt. Keep the muzzle a couple inches away from the horse's forehead when the trigger is pulled.
Member:
mitch316

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 11:40 pm:

William, that is a good point about having the barrel a couple of inches away. Using a hollow point bullet is a thought as well. These separate into 4 distinct bullets after initial impact. In a heaver round I wouldn't recommend it though, because the lighter load of powder the "tighter" the pattern stays. Hope you won't have to do this again as well, and I hope and pray that none on here have to do as well. It seems like you did everything "right", although that seems morbid to say. Thanks for helping educate us all on this.
Member:
klowe

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 - 1:17 am:

Thanks to everyone for this thread, I would rather read relatively graphic stuff than find out the hard way. I have found myself in a similar position, Elizabeth, with little available $$ and a horse w/cancer.

My vet also feels that proper handgun euthanasia is very humane, but is fairly forceful that I wouldn't want to be there, which I am less certain of. However, since I know myself well enough to know for sure that I couldn't do it except in extreme emergency, (don't own a gun, haven't done any shooting in like 45 years), that leaves me with the problem of finding someone do it for me (with me or without me) and figuring out whether they really do know what they are doing.

Glad to hear you were able to postpone the evil day a bit-

Kathy
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