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  Discussion on Changes to the Feeding Schedule
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Member:
vera

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2009 - 12:52 pm:

I'm on a 12 hr schedule right now with my feedings. My husband just started a new job working from 3-12 and I work a second job on two nights of the week. Would it be bad to feed the horses at 2:30 on those two days maybe a "snack" until I get home around 9pm? Their normal feed time is 6am and 6pm.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2009 - 1:48 pm:

I don't know if it's the "right" thing to do, but I often break up our horses' feedings into three or more times a day, and always do if I know I'm going to be late for a feeding. I think they enjoy the snack and it's better for their digestion that way. You just have to not give them more than their normal total amount per day and try and get the time between feedings divided up as close to even as possible.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2009 - 1:50 pm:

A snack of hay? Of course. I do that all the time on game nights. (daughter plays basketball) Today we have to leave at 4:30, I normally feed about 6 also. So they get a few flakes right before we leave. I don't know if our son will be home to feed around 6, or later, or if they won't get more hay til around 10. It's always better to have extra hay in front of them, instead of being out of hay for an extended period especially past there normal feeding time.

Any form of "grain" though, that is a different story. If you are feeding quite a bit of grain, I wouldn't change that drastically. If you only feed a small amount like I do, to get vitamins in them, it's no big deal IMO.

Sounds like tough times, a 2nd job. If you don't have the extra hay to feed, just give part of the night feeding earlier, that will work o.k. too.

Just my opinion; this has worked for me for years though.
Member:
vera

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2009 - 2:50 pm:

Yeah it is tough times for me all of the time since I decided to work in a research lab. Low pay means that I need to work a second job to keep the horses. I go straight from my primary job to the second job and that wasn't a problem until my husband had to get another job. He worked at Anheuser Busch:-( Anyway, I do feed mostly hay with a small amount of concentrate so I'll probably end up per your wonderful advice having my wonderful hubby give them some more hay before he leaves and then I'll feed normally when I get home. For consistency, I'll probably have him do this everyday instead of just 2 of 5 days.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 2, 2009 - 6:23 pm:

No problem with the extra 3 hours Angela.
DrO
Member:
warthog

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2009 - 12:23 am:

A really interesting question. There are so many opinions on feeding and I found John Lyons advice of feeding horses at different times each day to keep them from expecting to be fed at a certain time to be most useful. His point was - if you keep them guess they won't tear down the fences if you're late feeding one day.

we have gone to a single feeding of 1.25 pounds of beet pulp based high fat high protein, low carb supplement with unlimited hay 24/7 each day and have had no problems at all for three years now. that's half a scoop by the way or one quart of our feed.

A friend is feeding nothing but alfalfa and her horses are in great shape, I worry about getting supplements though so continue to feed the small amount of grain once daily with daily wormer and MSM. The main value I think is if a horse doesn't come quickly to this feed and eat it all immediately I know I need to check to be sure the horse is OK.

Lately I've read more and more about feeding more forage and less grain but I do agree - with a horse who is on a full feed (no hay needed) grain with little hay would probably need to be fed four times a day at least and perhaps add some alfafa cubes or pellets or some beet pulp to increase the length of time the horse is eating or the horse might be at risk for ulcers.
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 1:27 am:

Is it OK to fews two times a day ( hard food ), Morning and evening ?

Or is it better/essential to feed 3 times, - to give them at lanch time ?

My horses are used to get twice a day and now my new nutritionist asked me to feed three times. She gave me new mix.
With plenty of hay in between - or/and on the passture (now in winter little grass) .
I am going to install slow hay feeder - waiting for my husband to help me make one . So far I am going to improvise with it .
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 1:27 am:

Is it OK to fews two times a day ( hard food ), Morning and evening ?

Or is it better/essential to feed 3 times, - to give them at lanch time ?

My horses are used to get twice a day and now my new nutritionist asked me to feed three times. She gave me new mix.
With plenty of hay in between - or/and on the pasture (now in winter little grass) .
I am going to install slow hay feeder - waiting for my husband to help me make one . So far I am going to improvise with it .
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 1:34 am:

Sorry - over typing. Correction of the above .
Is it OK to feed two times........
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 7:13 am:

Anna Marie,

While it seems from everything I've read that more frequent, smaller meals are the ideal, there are many, many that feed only twice a day, with free access to hay and/or grazing in between...most boarding barns feed this way with no problems for the horses.

If it's not practical for you to feed a "lunch" meal, I wouldn't worry about it unless your horses require huge amounts of food in the morning and at night...then perhaps I'd be a bit concerned about how much they are getting all at once.

How much of a change is there between what you were feeding the horses and what the nutritionist recommends?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 7:30 am:

Hello Anna-Marie,
Fran has it right, smaller more frequent meals are best but since we cannot stand if front of our horses feeding then a handful at a time there are practical considerations to be taken into account. The Overview of Nutrition article has some specific recommendations for meal size when feeding concentrates under the "grain" topic. If your concentrate is not grain based these rules may not apply.
DrO
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 6:21 pm:

Thank you Dr. O and Fran . I must say, I find it little difficult to feed three times a day . But is it Ok to give 1 kg of hard food at one time ? It is about double what they used to get ! I used to feed 1.3 kg the bigger horse and just over 1 kg the smaller horse per day . Both got fresh garlic, carrots / apples/ herbs , what was available . Sea salt or salt lick .
Now they are "prescribed" 2 kg per day each . The compositions is Barley 18%, oats 30%, alfalfa 25%, soya 9%,mycotoxins adsorbent 0.04 %. The grain is crushed .
crude protein 12%,crude fat 3% , crude ash 5%, crude cellulose 10 %, calcium 11g %/kg, phosphorus 6g%/kg.
Add every day: soya oil 40 g, vitamins 70 g. Both per kg of food.
I am starting them slowly on the new food and they love it . I am just not sure about the volume if I feed twice a day .??
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 - 11:11 pm:

1 kg of concentrate at a single feeding should not be a problem.
DrO
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 12:42 am:

Thank you Dr.O.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 9:21 am:

Angie and Good Lind, this basically is a advertisement so am moving it to the commercial section see, HorseAdvice.com » Commercial Advertising and Links.
DrO
New Member:
mrgood

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 1:44 pm:

I did not post my text in a commercial purpose so here it is in a rewritten form because this is something you must look in to.

After having studied the horse’s digestive system and a number of reports on cribbing I have found the correlations all too obvious. Cribbing starts 2 hours after the horse has stopped eating and that correlates with when the food has passed through the small intestine and left it empty and exposed to burning from digestive fluids of which the horse can not stop the production. Even if all horse does not show this stress by cribbing it is still a clear indication of suffering when all the cribbing horses start cribbing when the small intestine becomes empty. To me this is enough for never letting my horses be without food for two consecutive hours. Resting, riding or working doesn’t matter, they still need to eat.
Today there are solutions for letting your horse have access to hay 24/7 without over eating. Just Google “Slow Feeding” and look into a new worldwide trend of feeding routines. You will find experiences from all over the world.
“Slow Feeding” is putting a muzzle on the hay instead of on the horse. This restricts the amount of hay your horse can get out of the bale into his mouth at one time instead of restricting the amount of hay the horse is served. It usually takes between I day and one mouth for horses to get used to having access to hay when ever he needs to eat without having the urge to eat too much. A horse feels content when he has chewed enough not when he has filled his stomach. Slow Feeding makes him chew the hay much better. I have seen obese horses eat together with thin horses and after a winter season they both have reached their perfect weight. Slow Feeding is easier for you and much better for your horse. There is no reason not to try. Go out on the Internet and find a solution that fits your needs.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 3:37 pm:

Good Lind,

I have been doing my research as well, and I agree with you. In fact, I was recently researching using a deer feeder to feed my horses several times a day, because I do not have anyone to feed for me during those in between times.

My own horses have proven that they race better, if they have a small meal in their stomachs a few hours before they race.

In my case, I would love to have some sort of a feeder that would be able to feed hay and hard feed at the same time, even if it was shredded hay in mini-meals.

The problem is that while it is optimal for the horse it is inconvenient for most people to do this and the costs of the feeders are very expensive. My brain has been working overtime to find a solution to this.

Rachelle
Member:
stek

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 5:39 pm:

Rachelle I have found the cost of the slow feeders (we've made our own) well worth it. I haven't had success with the very small-holed hay nets as our horses rip them to shreds. If you have more gentle horses though I can see them working well.

The hard ones have worked fantastically for us. Of course something that is made heavy enough to withstand horse play is prohibitively expensive to ship, so has to be home-made or bought locally. Maybe you could talk to a local carpenter and see if they could make you one? With the building boom at a standstill there are probably a lot of guys looking for work that could give you a deal.

Is your goal to be able to give hard feed at intervals while you're not around, or are you more interested in having hay in front of your horses all the time? Just trying to brainstorm a good solution....
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 6:13 pm:

I have several options, for a while I was feeding Triple Crown Safe Starch Roughage which I found to be an excellent forage product and my horses were doing well with it but it's expensive, so I went back to orchard grass hay.

I would like to be able to give them small meals of the roughage and the hard feed several times a day ( and night) and be able to give them smaller quantities of hay when I can get there to feed AM and PM. In other words, other than giving them their hay, I would not need to do anything else and feed time becomes a not so stress related issue.

Rachelle
Member:
stek

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 7:14 pm:

Rachelle would you prefer not to get them on free-choice hay due to their profession (racing)?

Right now using the slow feeder I feed the same quantity I fed before in two feedings a day. Breakfast hay which is fed at 6am lasts till about 2 in the afternoon (nap time!), then dinner is fed at 4pm.

The horses are enthusiastic about their small grain and supplements meal at 4pm but not 'knock you down starving' the way they were before. I haven't gone out in the middle of the night yet to see how long their dinner lasts =) If I'm going to be late to the next meal I just feed a little extra.

I know this doesn't quite match with the continuous slow feeding philosophy Good Lind is advocating, but it is working well for us so far. When we had a 2-3 week stretch of very cold weather, we did increase hay to the point where there was always some hay left at the next feeding. The problem for us with this is the horses spent 24/7 parked in front of the feeders rather than going out to forage. Since we have multiple feeders they were still moving around from feeder to feeder, but not going outside the small area where the feeders are located even though they have access to an entire 10 acre field.

Probably if we kept this up for a long period as Good Lind suggests the behavior would ease; we may try it again eventually.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 8:19 pm:

Shannon,

I don't think their being racehorses has a lot to do with it. I'd love to feed them free choice hay and for the most part was able to do so by overstocking their hay racks with as much as I could stuff into them. My race mare was very good ( she is a dainty eater and a lot of times had hay left over), my 20 month old colt was (is) a virtual vacuum cleaner and will not leave one bit of hay left over no matter how much I give him and that was in addition to his 8lbs of complete feed per day.

He has slowed down, but only because I use a double haybag and he actually has to work to get out the hay, but it does not last as long as I would like it to. When that haybag is in the stall its the only thing he thinks about ( other than trying to bite me all the time, he's getting better about this). He gets through 4 pretty good size flakes of hay in about 4 hours. I'd like those 4 flakes to last him just about all day.

Rachelle
New Member:
mrgood

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 23, 2009 - 3:28 am:

After having given up on the hard Slow Feeders I have turned my attention to Soft Slow Feeders (often called SMHN for Small Mesh Hay Nets). Filling hay nets with loose hay is hard work so today I have solutions for being able to dress complete bales of all sizes in SMHN. It is soooooo much easier and a full hay net lasts much longer when filled with a hard bale (you don’t even have to remove the bale strings). As you can see on the video on my web site I prefer a complete netted bale put in a wooden box because it is so much easier for me and gives the horses perfect eating angles. Soft nets and shoed horses are a dangerous combination but if you build yourself a box like that it becomes perfectly safe. You can buy SMHN from different suppliers but make sure you get a mesh size that is no more that 4cm (13/8”) and a soft but sturdy material (I prefer Nylon). They don’t have to be expensive to be good but, as usual –don’t buy the cheapest ones and don’t buy the most expensive ones because they are never worth the money.
“Slow Feeding” is kind a special because it doesn’t really work until the horse has forgotten that there is an end to the supply of hay. When he believes that the hay grows in the SMHN just like grass grows on the ground then there is no reason to fight over it and there will be no more eating stress since no one can come and finish his meal. This harmony usually comes within 1 day and 1 month so be patient. If your horse eats too much during this (investment) period you just have to exercise him more. It is worth it many times over because you will never again feel the stress of almost missing the feeding times. (Send me a thought when you turn over and go back to sleep with good conscience next Sunday morning.) There is much more information (and a museum of old mistakes) on this international trend on my web site. All the information is free for your inspiration. Be my guest.
Member:
stek

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 23, 2009 - 11:51 am:

Rachelle, I know ideas on the modified deer feeder were mentioned on another post but I found some photos here:

https://paddockparadise.wetpaint.com/page/Modified+Deer+Feeder

Something like this combined with a slow feeder for hay might be a good solution for your colt.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 23, 2009 - 2:35 pm:

Shannon,

I think I was the one that posted about modifying the deer feeders. The one I looked at was only $70 with a timer, but I would need two one for inside and one for outside, he's out every night so I need to cover that 12 hours as well.

I looked at the paddock paradise website and I really like the idea of those big plastic barrels for the hay with a net under them instead of a box on the floor, I would be worried about my horse trying to jump into the box as goofy as he is. He saw his reflection in a window today and thought it was another horse, he started nickering at the reflection(he really is a goof).

I have the ability to be able to mount the deer feeder and the hay feeder high enough so that he doesn't get any bright ideas about knocking them down.
Rachelle
Member:
mrgood

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 2:57 am:

I have tried so many hard slow feeders and every time, sooner or later, the hay get stack. I have found the only way to get them to work well enough is to make them wider at the bottom than at the top. The hay quite often get stack between parallel sides. Before you start building a hard feeder you find at any web site I advice you to ask the publisher how it works now when they have used it for a while because most pictures and ideas are published as soon as they are ready to start being used and not when l the pros and cones are known. It is the same thing with most of what you can find in my museum. When I go back and ask the person who built it they tell me that it broke or didn't work as they had hoped or the horse learned to fool the system. Still, I prefer my horses to eat low and from above. I haven't seen any problems with the boxes. Just make the height of the sides suitable for the size of your horse and nets laying in a box seems to last "for ever".
Last but absolutely not least; dressing a complete square bale i a hay net is so much easier that filling a hay net with loose hay. Remember, it doesn't really work until the horse has forgotten they can be empty.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 8:18 am:

After looking at deer feeders, fish feeders, horse feeders etc in a variety of size and shapes, I've come to the conclusion that all I really need is the right type of timer. I can come up with the buckets and any type of PCV piping I need to make the feeder.

I found a website on ebay that will answer my questions and supply me with the parts I need to DIY this thing. I do not need a spreader, I just need something that will automatically open and close a slightly larger opening than normal to allow for the dispensing of shredded hay and feed at the same time at least 4 times in a 12 hour period. This would be refilled 2 times a day every 12 hours. Total amount of capacity at most would be 12 lbs so a 5 or 6 gallon feeder ( plastic pail) would be more than enough.

I saw a hay feeder made out of a round plastic barrel with a hole cut out of the side, the only thing I didn't like about it was I think the grid covering the hole was too big. I am thinking about using a heavy duty Rubbermaid garbage pail with a snap on latchable lid mounted high enough so horse can not reach the lid or just putting another grid across the top and giving access from two places.

Any body got any ideas on where to buy heavy duty grids?

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 9:33 am:

Question:

How long does a hay net last 4 horses before they destroy it? I just have visions of the net tore to shreds, laying all over the paddock, wrapped around a leg or two...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 9:47 am:

Angie that's what mine did....Flash hung herself in it Hank tangled his whole body in it somehow, it was hung high with not much slack. Somehow he managed to stretch the the string(while still tied), get his leg stuck and wrap most of his body in it Fortunately he didn't panic while tied to the wall and no damage done. I gave up on hay nets after that.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 10:18 am:

Perhaps Rachelle you could buy a sheet/piece of heavy plastic and have it diecut with the grid pattern and size you want? Or if you own a router you could make round holes or know someone with a plasma cutter? If you lived closer we could cut it for you!

Not sure how expensive that would be however. The diecut rings I have on my slow down feeders are 99 bucks each...they do hold up however very, very well. Not bent, cracked, etc. after 12 months daily use.

I bought a sheet of 1/4" inch clear plexiglass years ago and had it cut to fit my dining room table and had the edges beveled--so I could protect it from my little kids and they wouldn't get cut on sharp edges. That plexiglass was way too flimsy to use for your feeders, but I'm sure you could buy a thicker, stiffer product.

Is there a diecut shop near you anywhere? They might be a good resource to help you with a vendor who sells stock for your application?
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 10:20 am:

I cannot imagine a haynet working for the Haffies. They will step into anything and try to destroy it. I had a tractor tire for a long time and they were always standing in it or using it as a step to get to something just out of there reach...very clever those two...
Member:
mrgood

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 10:39 am:

We have had the same round bale net for three years for our four horses and it is still 100% intact. One of our friends has a horse that usually destroys everything and it took that horse one night to destroy the net she bought at the tack store but now she has been using one of our for a month and it is still 100% intact. So it all depends.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 11:03 am:

Vicki,

You gave me an idea but from a different perspective. What if, instead of cutting a big hole in the side of a barrel, I cut smaller holes ( 2" x 2") to make the grid the size I want. I could use sandpaper to smooth out the rough edges of the cut out grid. Then maybe I could do another one with a smaller grid that I would be able to mix the roughage and the feed and not even need a timer, although I can guess which one would be empty the quickest. Maybe, by giving him a choice and slowing him down in both the feed and the hay departments it would give him something to do, besides get himself into trouble.
Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 11:11 am:

Rachelle, Genius! and how easy would that be! I have been following this but couldn't think of anything to add. Just cutting a grid in the barrel itself sounds like a good, EASY idea! Kind of like the pasture pal but bigger
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 11:30 am:

BTW have you considered something like the Pasture pal with a base for his grain? I had completely forgotten about them until your post, I don't think they are horribly expensive. Less than $50 around here

https://www.horseballs.com/products/pasture-pal.html
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 11:32 am:

Diane,

I really like those Pasture pals, but from what I understand they are not manufactured any more. I also thought of a Horse sized Kong ( I have Kongs for my dogs that keep them busy for hours trying to get their Kong Cookies out of them) I would need a smaller diameter hole and a very large Kong unless I switch back to Strategy ovals which is a large pellet feed.

Rachelle
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 11:45 am:

diane, I looked on that site, I couldn't find how much the pasture pal holds...

Rachelle, cutting the grids in the sides or bottom of the barrels would work; however, how wide/diameter is the barrel/garbage can? Will the feed have a chance to sit in the middle, just out of reach for the horse with only 2x2" holes?

Also, the thickness of the plastic would have to withstand the cutting of the grid and action of the horse eating and not flex too much so that it weakens and breaks...?

I use industrial strength 55 gal barrels which might be thick enough for your application (with plastic lids and lever locking metal rings which prevent critter invasion and moisture) for storing feed. I got these from a food manufacturing plant. (they of course have lots of interest in rodent proofing and sealing out moisture) Perhaps an industrial supply house has these?

Anyway, none of the plastic containers I can buy at Menards, Walmart, etc. would hold up to the Haffies and their trick feet and trick muzzles/teeth. A jolly ball last a day before the handle is ripped off and the ball busted.

The freezing temps make the light weight plastic brittle and easy for the morons to crack. They have done a great job destroying the vinyl siding they can reach...
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 11:54 am:

Do they make horse size kongs? LOL the haffies would stomp it, break it open... Shorty uses his front feet like a monkey I think.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 11:57 am:

I was picturing the industrial size barrels when Rachelle mentioned cutting holes in a barrel, I don't think they would last a "lifetime" but pretty long. I use them for horse stuff all the time.

I swear I saw a pasture Pal at the farm store across the border, but maybe not. They have other things like the pasture Pal, but they are all "ground feeders" I wonder if they could be modified with a base.

Amazing Graze is one
nose-it horse treat dispenser is another.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 12:12 pm:

And since Rachelle like "building" things something like this would probably work, as long as you could figure out how to keep it off the ground.

Horse Toy & Treat Dispenser


You need:
* 1 empty clean milk jug
* 1 long piece of bailing twine
* Scissors
* Grain or Horse Cookie Treats

Step 1
First to make the stall toy you will take a clean milk jug make sure to take the cap off and discard it as you
don't want your horse to eat it! Take your scissors and poke holes in the milk jug big enough for grain or
cut a few slots on two sides at the bottom the size of your cookie treats (we use Apple and Oats treats) the
slots or holes should be large enough for the treat to fall out, but not so big they just fall out by their self.
The horse should have to work at getting the treats out.

Step 2
Next take a piece of bailing twine and tie it around the handle of the milk jug. Then tie it in your horses stall.
It should hang just about level with your horse’s eyes. You can hang them in trees also. DrOp your treats or
grain in thru the top of the jug, only put a few handfuls in until you see how long it takes your horse to empty
the jug. Don’t forget to refill them with treats from time to time.
These are great for horses that get bored. I have seen a horse bang one of these around for hours. It is
also a desensitizing tool, as it swings back and forth it rubs on their head and when the horse walks by it
rubs on other parts of his body, making a rattling noise at the same time.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 12:32 pm:

Thanks Diane,
I used to use old horse vitamin bottles for horse toys but never put treats or food in them. Just threw them in the stall and the horses would go nuts for them trying to get the last bits of whatever supplement was in them out. Worked really good with Mega-Sel, Red-Cel or Red-Glo vitamins.

My horse is playful but not destructive ( thankfully) he'd be fine even with a bargain garbage pail with holes in it.

Thanks all
Rachelle
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 12:34 pm:

Rachelle, great idea.
Member:
stek

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 3:27 pm:

What great ideas! This is why I love this board =) Rachelle I love the idea of a homemade pasture pal. Diane is right, the trick would be finding plastic that is flexible enough not to crack when subjected to horse play.

You might try looking on ebay or craigslist for pasture pals...

Good Lind we've been using our hard sided slow feeders for 2 months so far and haven't had the 'grid' get stuck at all yet. But the way our works, the 'grid' is flexible chain link surrounded by a heavy frame, so the frame falls to the bottom of the box almost right off and the chain link stretches up over the hay. I like it because it's hard for the horses to get themselves in trouble with. We tried 3 or 4 different hay nets and they were all shredded within a couple days. As others have stated I don't want to risk putting something out there they could hurt themselves on.
Member:
mrgood

Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 3:19 am:

I really hope yours will work better than the ones that I have seen when the horses eventually have made a big hole in the middle of the chain link. I'm afraid all my customers that have tried chain links has given up and tried welded grids instead and most people trying hard feeders experience that the hay eventually get stack. Every single horse owner I know that has tried with a grid laying on top of the hay has fairly soon found their horse tilting the grid to the side to get their head in under one side. I believe I have built some 15 different models of hard feeders during the last 13 years in search for the perfect design but I have given up that way because high quality Small Mesh Hay Nets works so much better for me and my customers. How long a SMHN lasts depends on many things. The most important is not to stretch the net to hard (that is one reason why I prefer putting them in a wooden box). I know that some horses (not very many) makes a hole in their first net (SMHN are very easy to mend with any piece of durable string) but most often they get used to the fact that biting the net is a poor way of getting the hay out and stop that fairly quickly. I do how ever advice against making it possible for the horse to stand on the SMHN because then they might tear it, get stack in it, pee and poop on it (another reason why I prefer a wooden box). As soon as it stops snowing so heavily I will go out and take some pictures of different ways of hanging and using SMHNs (for your inspiration). Our selves we use round bale nets for our horses (turn out herd 24/7) and we only feed them (give them a new round bale) after about two weeks (depends on temperature and snow depth). After three years our horses are specialist at eating from netted bales and they never tear a net. Why feed twice a day when twice a month is so much better (and cheaper)?
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 8:11 am:

I am going to see if I can get my son to make a welded grid. The first model I tried with garden fencing laying on top of the hay, they did tilt it. I attached hooks and twine on each side to limit how far it could be lifted as they sunk their teeth in the wooden frame to lift it up.

What size holes should be in a welded grid?
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 8:22 am:

2x2 perhaps? As long as the opening is smaller than the smallest hoof at your place! I think the circles on my diecut plates are 3" in diameter.

Be sure to grind/file away sharp edges from welds.
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 8:02 pm:

Shannon where did you get your chain link?

Good lind, how many horses and appr how big are the bales?
Member:
mrgood

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 10:00 am:

My experience is that 2"x2" is the perfect size for all horses when it comes to hard grids and 1 1/2" is what works best with most horses when it comes to SMHN. Some horses might need smaller but no horses should have larger mesh size.

How long a round bale lasts depends on many different factors like snow depth, outside temperature, rainy days, breeds and individual differences. Usually a regular size (John Deer) round bale lasts for a little less than 2 weeks for our four horses in our environment.

In an hour or two I will have a whole bunch of new inspirational pictures of SMHN solutions on my web site.
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 10:41 am:

Good Lind - would be good to know how much your bales weigh - Our bales weigh 1000 pounds - some weigh around 700 pounds - and some are just around 500. If the bales are 1000 pounds the horses would be getting almost 18 pounds per day -700 pounds would DrOp that to 12.5 ponds per day. Doesn't account for any waste hay.
Member:
mrgood

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 11:12 am:

I don't know and to be honest I don't care. The only thing that is important to me is that my horses balance their weight perfectly them selves. I don't believe in deciding how much food one particular horse should have each day. I don't decide how much they eat when they are grazing in the summer. I believe I have heard that a horse that is galloping is burning 60 times as many calories as one that is idling and different individual, even of the same breed, age and activity, needs very different amounts of food. The charm with Continuous Slow Feeding is that sound horse balance there weight them selves.
Member:
stek

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 1:38 pm:

Lori we got our chain link at Lowes, was about $50 for a 50 foot roll. So with the cost of the chain link and the material for the frame I think our homemade grids cost about $15 each.

Unfortunately in our wet climate we can't just put out a round bale, it would get wet and moldy too quickly. So we still need to feed twice a day no matter what.

The only way we could get away with feeding large quantities at once would be to build a shed in which to put the hay, and since we have one horse in the herd who is older and way too meek to assert herself enough to share we would have to build two sheds...

I am surprised the horses haven't figured out how to pull the grates out, but until they do I'm not going to worry about solving a problem I don't have.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 1:54 pm:

All,

As I have been reading and commenting on this thread I have been making several observations. One of those observations is that we humans are creatures of habit, we are so used to having our horses on a feeding schedule at some specific time, that we do tend to forget that horses are grazing animals and are meant to be eating all day.

Good Lind makes a very good point in that we do not know how much our horses are eating when they are turned out on pasture, the way we know they are eating too much or too little is by observing their body condition.

I think horses do regulate themselves, I think horses sometimes eat out of boredom because they are trying to entertain themselves. We can't be with them 24/7 and part of the feeding ritual for us is that bonding we get when they nicker for their food or act like idiots running up and down the fence just waiting for us to show up and feed. Would they be better off if their daily feeding routine did not revolve around scheduled feedings?

I am about to embark on an experiment, I am going to use Dr.O's recommendation of feeding mostly forage( In this case Triple Crown Safe Starch forage)some regular orchard grass hay and some complete feed mixed with the Safe Starch forage. I am going to use or attempt to use slow feeding methods by using several large feed tubs with slowdown grids and slow down feed rims to hold in the grids, placed in several spots both inside the stall and outside in the pasture and I am going to measure what he eats on a daily basis. I am no longer going to specifically feed my horse just his concentrate in a feed tub and then I am going to observe what he does.

In other words this colt is going to have some sort of food( mainly forage) in front of him at all times with no separate a.m or p.m concentrate feedings.

I'll report back as this program gets implemented.
Rachelle
Member:
mrgood

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 3:03 pm:

There is always a solution to make it possible to give our beloved horses access to food 24/7 it is just a matter of imagination and creativity.

Trust me in Sweden we have an extremely humid environment but that is a much bigger problem for our pastures than for giving our horses access to food 24/7. I prefer a SMHN to contain hay for 36 hours because then even if I fill then in the morning today and in the evening tomorrow there will still be hay in the net. Hay doesn't mold within 36 hours so the nets can be outside in the rain if there is no shelter for the horses. One of the biggest advantages with Continuous Slow Feeding is that there is no fighting within the herd so one shelter will be enough. The don't fight over pasture so why should they fight over a continuous supply of hay? The new inspirational SMHN pictures are on now.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 9:22 am:

Hello Good Lind,
you continue to link to your sales page (home page) rather than the information you discuss in your posts, for example the inspirational pictures above. I have to consider this advertising. I would be much more inclined to allow such linking to stay in place if you instead would link directly to the material you are discussing. I am removing all these ad page links except the one in the advertising section.
DrO
Member:
mrgood

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 10:44 am:

I would understand if what I contribute to the discussion and the content on my web site was pure sales talk. That is however not the case. On my web site there are hundreds of absolutely free and very informative pages many with world unique information so of course I link to the home page (I have never linked to a sale page). Hooves, digestion and feeding is so intimately connected that every horse owner on this planet should visit this site and read every single word on it. To link to a picture would only be fooling the visitor away from the complex reality and all the knowledge needed to really understand what is important to be successful and what to avoid not to make unnecessary and maybe costly mistakes. By linking to the home page it is more likely that the visitor understands that it takes many more things to be successful than just copying a photographed feeder model. My goal is to get the horse owners to open their eyes to a bright new world of horse keeping. How any one still can argue that feeding twice a day is sufficient or that coffin bone rotation is a serious hoof issue I honestly can not understand. Anyone that have studied the digestion system of the horse should understand that feeding only twice a day must be considered animal cruelty and anyone that have studied physics in high school should understand that the traditional explanation for coffin bone rotation brakes the laws of physics. Yes, slow feeders have a lot to do with coffin bone rotation since continuous slow feeders helps to keep the insulin level on a lower level and it is proven that high insulin levels can cause laminitis which is the foundation for coffin bone rotation. Not linking to my home page would only make it harder for the horse owners to see that complete picture. For the good of the horse please let me keep linking to my home page.
Most horse owners on this planet doesn’t know that when the horse’s digestion system becomes empty it will be irritated or even burned by the digestion fluids, that Continuous Slow Feeding will solve this problem or where to find the material needed to save the horse from the effects of traditional ignorance.
My home page, just like yours, is a gateway to sounder horse keeping and that is what is important to me so please let me keep linking to my home page.

Kindly
Mr Good
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 12:46 pm:

Hello Mr Good,
You are allowed to link to your home page in your profile and the advertisement topic. But if you wish to link to information on your site that you think illustrative of your point, link directly to that page besides our policy of avoiding advertisement it is a courtesy to the users so they do not have to search for the page of interest. Thank you.
DrO
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 4:10 pm:

Good lind, you state that with your system the horses won't fight because of the continuous availability of feed.
You havn't met my horses.
I have a round bale in an open location in the field, not close to a fence anywhere so no place for a horse to get trapped.
One of the horses still isn't allowed to eat with the group, she has to wait until he has moved off then she can in and eat.
She is losing weight slowly, doesn't need to lose anymore.
Other than putting out a second bale or selling him I am not sure what I can do about it.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 4:28 pm:

Lori, can you just peel some off the round bale and put it away from the other horses? I had to do that for the old mare last year when the boys were feeling greedy!

I think slow down feeders, free choice hay, ect are good ideas. BUT Wouldn't it be just as easy to get some stemmy hay and keep it in front of them by throwing the leafs around? My prone to be fat horses do fine with this and have access 24/7 to hay. They even leave some.

When I fed round bales last year I LOVED it, but did notice the horses hardly ever moved... not good either.

With the free choice stemmy/very nice hay (that they picked) no weight gain OR loss, and they are moving around ALOT, unless I lock them up because of ice ect. I am giving them a ration balancer because I'm sure the hay lacks. If they have some left over they get less the next day, it is always cleaned up eventually with no waste.
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 6:49 pm:

Diane, we put the hay into a feeder so it is quite difficult to take the outer layer off.

I may have to move a second bale dwon to where we feed and throw some of that bale in every day.

You have a good idea but when I consider economics I will have to stay with the round bale. At least until I am one horse poorer.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 7:05 pm:

You're not alone Lori with herd feeding problems...I have two that allow each other to eat, but literally race it seems to eat the most to be sure they get their share...

I have fed round bales free choice and all I wound up with was fat horses. I have tried 24/7 pasture and I had fat horses. The Haflingers are just pigs and easy keepers. It's a miracle they have good hooves and have not foundered. I have had those two for six years I think. I make sure they have stemmy hay or I mix in straw with grass hay...they have to have something to chew on or they chew on each other too much or whatever is handy. And of course the dominant gelding is a bigger hog. Rarely does either one lift his head if there is anything edible in reach. Believe me, I tried hard on the 24/7 out and the round bales, because it's much easier on me. But they would not settle down and believe the food would still be there...had to eat it all right now with narry a breath. They also eat too fast. It's ridiculous to watch those two eat. And it has always been that way. Probably missing some miniscule mineral or vitamin that I haven't found yet...
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 7:07 pm:

Good Lind, sounds like your hay lasts as long as mine in a regular feeder.
When you say cribbing do you mean just chewing on whatever wood is handy or wehre they actually take hold with their teeth and suck in?
One of our coaches here has a horse that sucks year round, including when she is in a pasture of very nice grass 24/7.

Diane, what do you use for horse treats?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 7:56 pm:

Lori I use alfalfa/timothy pellets for treats and their "feed" they love them as much as anything sweet.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 8:28 pm:

I kind of found the stopping cribbing comment strange too Lori. My horses have never developed the habit even when I was "starving" them.

OTOH I have seen horses with hay right in front of them prefer to crib over eating. Out in pasture with grass up to their knees...cribbing on the fence or whatever they could sink their teeth into. If only it was that easy to break that habit, many owners of cribbing horses would be happy.
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 10:50 pm:

I am going to try making one of those toys for my busy gelding.
He puts everything into his mouth, he has chewed the water hose through several times.
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 11:20 am:

I have also seen horses that crib that lived out on pasture 24/7, even to the point that they couldn't maintain their weight on pasture alone because they would rather crib than eat.

Lori I have had the same problem when I tried feeding round bales when it was dry this past summer, my one very timid mare was never allowed to eat enough. Even with two bales that were a good 200 feet apart, she was always standing on the periphery while everyone else ate. I tried it for a couple months then gave up.

Diane, my main reason for starting with the slow feeders was to eliminate waste. My other problem with round bales was that they turned into giant bathroom piles as the horses pulled through them looking for the tastiest bits. I have always tried to feed enough so that the horses have 24/7 access to forage but feeding stemmy hay resulted in tremendous amounts of waste. And in the winter that wasted hay turned into a big swampy nasty mess. I just could not stand spending money on hay to have it turned into a muck pile!

With the slow feeder the horses can't pick through it so they eat each bite they take and none gets wasted. Also I feed the same amount and it lasts till the next feeding the way it should because they aren't tramping it into the mud. For me the main benefit of the feeders is the lack of waste. I can feed free choice without them but I have to feed twice as much to make it work.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 3:37 pm:

Shannon, I'm lucky my hogs won't waste stemmy hay, but the slow down feeders certainly eliminate wasted hay from it being pulled out, tramped on, and pottied on...

I'm thinking of trying one of the big slow down pasture feeders this summer and give that a try. However, I can't still reconcile the problem of the horses just standing there eating and never moving and I will bet $ that the two Haflinger hogs will just do that...we'll see.

so until then I will continue to micro manage the Haffies and use the slow down feeders in the stalls and keep stemmy hay and straw available.
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