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Discussion on Old mare's eating habits
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2009 - 11:17 am:
The same mare that was diagnosed with FM is developing very strange eating habit. Previously she was a real pig, (her nickname is Miss Piggy.) Over the last few months she has started to become very finicky about what she eats and how she eats. She gets beet pulp with Eq. Senior and a little rice bran plus a little bit of grass hay. Some days she eats the beet pulp but somehow manages to leave all the Senior; other days she eats the Senior but leaves the beet pulp; some days she won't touch any of it but will eat her hay. Many days the hay is untouched. Fed in the early evening, she will often just pick at her food, but will gradually eat it during the night because most of it will be gone by morning - most mornings, but not always. In the morning, if she ate during the night she won't even come look at her feed, or she will stand with her head hanging out the feed door looking like she is waiting for something better and different.
The mare is in good weight and is on Pergolide. The Pergolide has helped her a lot as she's shedding normally this year. She is bright and alert and pretty energetic for an old girl. Some days she does seem a little depressed, but will snap out of it if I turn her out or take her for a walk.
Is the way she is eating normal for an old horse? I've never had an older horse be like this before, but maybe others have. Is is part of the Cushings? Does it indicate she is in pain? Ideas? She is driving me crazy! Thanks.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2009 - 12:07 pm:
Ummm Sara notice how I have been posting about my old mare lately, she's developed some weird habits lately! I decided to not look at her if she is "healthy" otherwise .
Do you water down Miss Piggys feed? I tried beet pulp with my old girl and I can say I never could decide if she liked it or not Sometimes she would lick it right up, sometimes not. I decided to eliminate it it from her "feed" because the days she didn't like it she wouldn't eat the other stuff that was mixed in and haven't had a problem since. She LOVES watered down alfalfa pellets with a dash of safechoice.
I have read that pergolide can mess with their appetite, so I guess you'll have to experiment with feed, maybe she just wants something different! How much pergolide is she on? How long has she been on it?
As I said in my post, with the oldies you sure have to develop a weird sense of humor
I'd be concerned too if one of my pigs suddenly got finicky, but I have noticed the old girl has slowed down in the appetite department,Yet her weight is very good so I just keep an eye on her.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2009 - 1:09 pm:
I soak the beet pulp in warm water until it is soft then mix it with the senior and bran. She's been on the Pergolide for almost a year. On it she has lost the crest that was forming on her neck, didn't get such a long winter coat, and is starting to shed normally this year. I didn't realize Pergolide could affect their appetites. I was reading that thread about the IR affecting their appetite and wondering about it though.
What gets me is that she will sometimes eat the beet pulp and leave the senior, which she used to love. If she gets any alfalfa, which is rarely, she will eat the stems and leave the leaves! Maybe she just likes variety or is always hoping something better is available? I guess if her weight continues to be good I shouldn't worry, but I do. I've had the old girl for 26 years and my parents had her before that.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2009 - 4:24 pm:
Sara - my mare is 23 and the last two winters she has periodically gone "off her feed". In the fall she would leave a lot of hay sometimes - other times clean it all up. Since I weigh her hay I know she gets the same amount each time. However - she cleans up her equine senior every time.
She may be IR - she is definitely cresty and has weird fat patches.
Lately, though, with the days getting longer, her appetite seems to have come back and she seems to clean up her hay ration every time. She gets about 13 lbs of hay (plus a snack or short grazing time) and about 1.5 lbs of Equine Senior. I estimate her weight at 1100 lbs (half-Arab, half-Saddlebred).
One time I got so concerned I took her temp - but all was normal.
I am trying not to worry. I hope all is well with your girl.
Lilo
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2009 - 5:11 pm:
I'm surrounded by older animals that are getting senile! Our old dog is deaf now...or at least is most of the time! He goes out and two minutes later he thinks he needs to go out again. I think he goes out and forgets what he went out for, or he's forgotten he went out already. (I had him checked by the vet and he's fine physically.) One old cat we have isn't much better, always crying to go out even if it's a blizzard outside, then crying to come in! The old cat also throws up often with no notice. Now my old mare is starting to act weird. Maybe she is getting senile also!
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2009 - 5:41 pm:
Sara, has she been on the same dosage of Pergolide? It can affect their appetite if they are getting too much. You might want a blood test done to see what her levels are in regards to Cushings. Been there, done that. Too much Pergolide can also make them lethargic.
My former mare that was I.R. had an appetite that was never appeased and she had the fatty deposits common with I.R. and was also Cushings.
Shirl
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2009 - 7:01 pm:
Hmmm, Shirley I am not sure what you are recommending Sara test for. Some have suggested that ACTH might be a good indicator of control but currently looking at any of the PPID blood diagnostic levels and how they may relate to the the pergolide effects on appetite is highly conjectural.
But that said, Shirley is right to much pergolide can induce depression and inappetance as can too little. Shirley's question on recent dosage changes is right on.
Sara, yes decreased appetite is a common event in older horses but as to the cause, including those you list, we cannot begin to guess. If this is the only symptom and recent exams, particularly of the teeth, found no problems I would be looking critically at her PPID management. But the real way to pursue it would be with an exam directed at causes of inappetance many of which are covered in the article in this section.
DrO
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2009 - 10:05 pm:
Dr. O,
Sometimes I ramble and don't explain myself well! When my mare had Cushings and was on the Pergolide,yearly my vet did a Dex test to make certain she was on the correct dosage. Some people don't like to use the Dex test and would rather use the ACTH, but my mare came through fine. I'm just stating what tests my vet used at the time and way, as I remember it. Anyway, thanks for your patience. Good luck to Sara
Shirl
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2009 - 7:18 am:
Sara,
We had a old Paint at the barn until last summer, when sadly he had to be euthanized. He was 33+. He was not cushings or IR, but for the 3 years prior to his death, he got very finicky about his feed and started losing condition. The owner tried just about everything available under the sun to tempt him....soaking, mixing types of feeds, adding veggies and fruit. He would like a new feed for a couple of weeks, the owner would sigh in relief and stock up on the feed, only to have him turn his nose up at it a few days later. Last spring, the owner finally found a feed that he continued to eat and he had put weight back on at the time of his death.
You may simply have to keep experimenting with your mare. I know that the old Paint's owner was ready to pull her hair out in frustration until she got weight back on him, but she felt that he was well worth it. There's no question in my mind that you feel the same way about your horses.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 22, 2009 - 5:29 pm:
Sara, I just ran across this on the horse and happened to think of this thread...do you use compounded pergolide on your mare?
Anyway an interesting read for those of you that have your horses on pergolide.
https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=13641
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 22, 2009 - 9:47 pm:
Diane, thanks for the link. It's an interesting article and brings up a good point. I hate to admit it, but I don't know if the Pergolide is compounded or not. It is a clear, sticky liquid. It's in a dark amber bottle and kept in a styrofoam box in the tack room. I haven't kept it in a 'frig because the weather has been so cold I didn't think it was necessary. However, I noticed my helper has been turning up the heat in there lately; I suppose so she can go in there and warm up now and then. I didn't think about the Pergolide getting too warm. She's about due for a new bottle. I'll make sure it stays cool.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 23, 2009 - 5:50 am:
Sara, I'm sure I'm going to run into this someday owning 2 seniors, so was wondering how your girl is doing? Did she get over her "pickiness"?
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 2:10 am:
Sara: In 2000, I lost a paint gelding, at 38 yrs. old. He went through periodic bouts of loss of appetite. He definitely had Cushings, but we were not treating it, as research and publicity were not as available back then. New Bolton in Pa. asked permission to do an autopsy on him, as they were doing research on aged horses at the time. We had him euthanized there due to colic. The necropsy found a small "growth" on the pituitary gland. It explained the excessively long hair growth in his last years. Their report stated: "38 yr. old gelding in excellent health"....and we WERE riding him gently- wtc - just 2 weeks before his death. We had periodic bouts of weight loss, when he would refuse to eat, during the last 2 - 3 years before his death. During these times, we fuzted around with various feeds ( Purina Equine Senior ended up being our choice )and found that bringing him in twice during the day and giving him a small amount of water soaked + corn oil- feed, helped him to stabilize his weight. This meant 4 small feedings a day. He had soft 2nd cutting alfalfa and timothy hay in front of him 24/7......but he only had incisors left and just rolled "cigars" with it. He spent time in the pasture every day, and must have gotten something out of it because he produced "green manure". I believe that " Tonto's" fussiness over feed came from "2 large lipomas" that eventually strangulated his intestines ( as noted in New Bolton's report ). I believe that these tumors interfeared with his intestinal function during the 3 times that he refused to eat ( 6 - 8 wks ), resulting in his "skeletal" appearence........until he began to eat again. He was good ( although stone deaf ) until the tumors grew enough to block his intestines, and we told New Bolton to let him go.
Just before "Tonto" left us, the man who cared for our horses for 18 years, lost his 40 something roping horse. He competed on "Buck" ( a grade buckskin ), in calf roping in the sixties, at the rodeo. This horse also lost weight periodically, and gained it back with many small meals throughout the day. He, also, had no molars, and useless incisors, but he "gummed" his water and oil soaked alfalfa cubes, 4x a day. Judging by his 4 - 6 inch coat ( uneven ), he also had Cushings.....untreated.
This brings me to my "filly", foaled in 1980. Showed extensively in the early eighties, my dream reiner, she sucumbed to navicular in the mid-eighities. She's a round 14.1hands, sporting corrective shoeing ( since 1985), arthritic hocks ( too many slide stops ), two old "bows" in the front, sticky stifles, and CUSHINGS. She's on 2mg Pergolide now, from "Veterinaries Pharmacies of America." out of Texas. They have been wonderful ( slight "bobble" during Katrina ). We've raised the dosage twice over the 3 - 4 years she has been on it. Those times, it was apparrant that she was feeling bad. She was way out of sorts, exhausted look, and generally miserable. She would also refuse to eat. With her, we would check her ACTH, and 1/2 mg increase in her Pergolide dosage set her "right" each time. We keep her Pergolide "alfalfa chews" in the kitchen fridge, mix them with applesauce and syringe them into her. Works great.
Each horse, is it's own adventure, I guess. You'll figure it out.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 10:23 am:
I just read your link Diane. Very interesting, as I was going to ask for more than a six month supply of pergolide with my next order, but now I see that maybe I had best go for freshness over convenience.
Am I the only one that uses Pergolide in capsule form? I give two tiny capsules to Sugar daily--she eats them readily in her Safe Choice, and she is a picky eater.
I have to rethink my storage of it, too. I have been keeping a medicine drawer with a seed starter mat in the bottom (thanks for the idea, Angie) to keep the injectibles from freezing. But I wonder if the pills are best left to the cold?
Erika
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2009 - 11:49 pm:
The old girl is doing pretty good. Currently she is eating her some of her hay and all of her Senior/beet pulp mix. I've decided her pickiness but just be her desire to assert herself. Evidently, when Lonnie feeds she eats whatever he put out; with me she pick and chooses and tries for something better. Can you spell " s-p-o-i-l-e-d!!" I think that's all it is at this point.
btw, I've been hand-walking her as per Dr. O's suggestion on another thread. We walked down the road and back the other day...at least I tried to walk. She obviously felt just fine; I had to come home and take two alieve! You'd have thought the old girl was an untrained 2 yr.old. My sympathies to Diane if she's going to be walking her old girl!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 6:46 am:
Sara, I think the spoiled part is right! The other day I fed the old mare her grass hay, she went over and looked at it and walked away!! She NEVER turns up her nose at food...any food. I checked the hay out, smelled it and it was good. She wouldn't eat it though HMMMMM. So I walked out the gate, she followed me and stood there staring at me.
Then it came to me it was time for her walk, but it was too muddy/icy that day. OF course when we are hand walking she gets to eat some grass in the yard
So I took her out for a couple minutes of grass, she was happy and went and ate her hay after that I'm afraid she is turning into a spoiled brat!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 4:43 pm:
The spoiling that goes along with the doctoring is a good kind of spoiling though, and it certainly increases the bond, doesn't it?
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