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Discussion on Indoor arena for a Canadian winter
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 10:41 am:
Hi
I'm looking into a new business venture that would require the construction of a small indoor arena, with possible expansion to a much larger one several years down the road.
I'm in Canada, on the prairies, where the wind blows hard (like right now), the temperature hit -35 C BEFORE windchill, and the snow piles up everywhere.
I'd like to build an arena with a lot of light, and I really like the appearance (from the inside anyway) of a CoverAll type fabric building. The problem is that I will probably need to heat the building to some degree. It won't need to be warm and toasty, but it will need to be considerably warmer than -35 C. Is a fabric building going to transfer light once it's insulated? Or do I need to insulate it at all if I install something like a hanging radiant heater which heats objects, not air?
The other option is the more tradition metal building, perhaps with continuous row of clear panels wrapping around the building below the eaves? Again, I would then need to insulate so it wouldn't be an ice cube in winter, and an oven in summer.
So, CoverAll building: Possibly less expensive to build and much brighter, but what about insulating, replacing the cover in 15-20 years, and do I really want a giant white igloo on my property?
Metal building: More expensive, darker, colder and hotter, holds it's value better, won't need a new roof and walls in 15 years.
Also, anyone with first hand knowledge of heating a riding arena? Personally, I've never been in one with heat.
Any advice?
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 1:43 pm:
LOL . . . "Giant White Igloo?" In CANADA?????????? NEVER!!!
Lots of questions here. Sara W. can answer some of them quite well, I bet, but here is what I've experienced in Vermont:
Ridden in Morton building in the winter (COLD AND DARK AND NOISY with the icicles falling off of the roof and against the siding . . . but good spook-proofing exercises for horses).
Been in a COVER-ALL that was so warm and light inside during the winter . . . didn't need heat. When the sun was out, it would warm to 50 degrees F inside . . . WONDERFUL.
Been in a custom built wooden indoor with windows all along the top of the walls to let in light . . . Nice.
Visited a wooden indoor with radiant heaters attached at the short end up high, and also been in indoors that have the high-mounted hot-air heaters. I like the radiant ones best.
How long to you plan on being where you are? When we came here, we looked at Cover-All and wanted to build one, but the cost was going to be prohibitive. We figured that in 15 years, we'd be retired from horses anyway, so it would have worked for us.
Enjoy the planning and investigating. The Cover-Alls are built where there are big winds, so I think one would work for you, but a representative from the company could help you there. Also, if you can interview people in your area who have different kinds of arenas, that will help you in your decision, for sure.
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 5:56 pm:
LOL . . . "Giant White Igloo?" In CANADA?????????? NEVER!!!
ROFL!! Good one Holly!
I imagine we will still be here in 15 years, but if we were to be moving at that time, I don't know that a CoverAll in need of a new cover would help our resale value at all.
As for people in the area with arenas --LOL. I know 2 people who have private arenas, both metal, both dark and dusty. Neither one has heat. That's the total number of arenas within a 100 mile radius around here. Seems to require a thriving horse industry before you can build one, and our thriving horse industry went the way of the wind when PMU did their big shut down a few years ago. So, lots of big empty barns, no arenas.
I guess I could fire off an email to CoverAll, but I hate doing that until I'm good and ready to deal, since it's like giving a car salesman your home phone number.
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 7:52 pm:
FWIW, the therapeutic riding center where I volunteered put up a CoverAll two years ago. They let in a great deal of light, so none is needed during the day, and do not require insulation for heat, as we understand it. We haven't installed our heaters yet, but really we find that if it's cold at night, it stays cold in the arena through the day - the sun does not warm up the inside air very much at all. Conversely if it gets very warm inside, it doesn't cool off as fast as the outside air either.
We do have extremely strong winds at times, and it holds up very well, however it is noisy.
Also, we decided to use grey coverall to a height of about 10 feet, and then white above that. It eliminates the outside/inside shadows that kind cause some horses to spook, and it's a bit more attractive than all white. There was no additional charge for the color, and there is a wide variety available.
We have a very large Coverall, about 100 x 200 feet. One thing we learned after the fact was that the ceiling supports are not high enough off the ground at the perimeter of the arena for a rider/horse to clear. Since we work with disabled riders, we ended up adding an interior fence rail, to keep riders from bonking their heads. 
Hope that helps!
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 8:21 pm:
Yes, that does help, Karin. I hadn't considered the shadows from the light coming through the sidewalls, and I'm glad you mentioned it. How noisy is it? Worse than a metal building in the rain? Do you know how high the ceiling is? The main function of this building would NOT be riding, but it would still have some use that way all the same. Does the building sweat? Someone somewhere on another webpage mentioned that their CoverAll will rain on them occasionally.
I'm still concerned about keeping people warm on those bitterly cold days. Any idea what kind of temperatures you've had when working there?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 8:41 pm:
We also have a Cover-All and I love it. We built a 4' high cement block footing and put the building on top of that. This allowed us to use a smaller (more narrow) building and still have plenty of clearance along the side.
There is wind noise, but only during strong winds and I think there is less noise than when at the metal, insulated, town arena during a storm. We have sand colored lower walls. Shadows haven't been a problem. We have large garage style roll up doors at each end plus vents on the ends with fans that circulate the air. I love the light, even on a dark day there's quite a bit of light. I also like being able to be shaded during the summer - or at least I think I will. The warmest days we've had so far since building it have been in the low 70's. We have had 50 mph winds and around 0 degrees (f) and it very comfortable with a jacket. When really working I had to shed the jacket. You will need venting as if you water the arena it will get humid for awhile. I think all indoor arenas do. One other thing I'd mention is that snow slides off the roof, so if you live where there is snow, allow room for "roof avalanches" to fall. We have large fans in ours - 3 down the middle to help circulate air, but have't used them yet. We also have high output, low temp, energy efficient florescent lights in 3 rows along the roof which really light the place up at night.
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 9:34 pm:
0 degrees F? That's like -18 C. Ok, this is good news. I'd be interested in hearing how things go later on when you find the need to use the fans and deal with the heat. Is it a box fan on each end, plus 3 from the ceiling?
What's the peak height on the arena?
What do you use to keep the arena from being dusty, but not frozen? Water wouldn't be an option for here. A neighbor uses snow, but I'm not sure how well that works.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 22, 2009 - 9:53 pm:
Michelle...Cover All comes out Canada don't they? We researched them when we lived in Minot, ND that has pretty much the same weather.
As for keeping the dust down I have a call in to my trainer. They can't water the arenas as they are on shared wells and use a salt product that they sprinkle on. It cost about $200 for a small dressage and is done twice per season. Probably cheaper than water! It works wonders. Will get back to you!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 2:11 am:
Yes,three from the ceiling and then large box fans/vents on the ends above the doors. I think the fans one the ends can be reversed, but I'll have to ask Lonnie to be sure; can't remember and haven't used them. Outside height is 30', which is the zoning limit here. We couldn't go larger on the arena because to do so we'd have had to go taller and were restricted by our zoning regulations.
We haven't put anything on the sand yet; it has stayed pretty dust free so far, but we are planning on coating it with mineral oil. I looked into a lot of options, and didn't like the salt because it's hard on hooves and your boots, as are some of the other additives I've read about. The mineral oil is pretty cheap, can be applied with our fertilizer/weed sprayer (after washing it out!) and can be obtained locally. It's also good for feet and boots.
I'll let everyone know how it works after we've actually used it, but it sounds great.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 10:36 am:
Michelle, I love the light in coveralls and they are much quieter in the rain and overall cozier than metal buildings. However if you get freeze/thaw cycles, or I imagine if you tried to heat the interior, snow sliding off the roof makes a terrifying zzzzzzzziiiiiiiiip! sound. Terrifying to the horses that is If you opt for the coverall I wouldn't attempt to heat the interior.
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Monday, Mar 23, 2009 - 7:26 pm:
Well, we don't get chinooks here like they do out west. It pretty much just gets cold and stays cold until spring. We're doing the thaw bit right now, very messy.
Weather permitting, I'm heading out tomorrow to a place with a CoverAll building that they use year round. I'm going to pick their brains. They're about a 5 hour drive from here -- I'm actually going for a different reason than to check out their arena, it's just a happy coincidence.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 7:31 am:
Michelle,
I don't have extensive experience with the coverall - I ride in one about 1 weekend a year as one of the shows I attend uses their Coverall indoor for a warm up arena during the show. They also have the "igloo" over the stalls, so it encompasses barn & arena.
This one is all white, and the sides, above the kickboard, can be rolled up. The show is in early August and for the last 2 years, that weekend has been very hot (85+ degrees F). Until we did the show, my mare had not been exposed to this type of arena.
It is beautifully bright and very airy, when the sides are rolled up. I do not think it held in the heat at all. Also, considering we were warming up during the hustle & bustle of a show, shadows outside were not an issue (horses walking by the open spaces where the sides were rolled up caused a bit of a distraction, but not a spook factor to any horses that I saw working in the arena).
I spoke to the owners the first year I showed there and they did say it's quite cold in the winter. As it's relatively local, I had heard that part of it had blown down one year in heavy winds, but I can't actually verify that.
At least for summer riding and stabling, it's very pleasant to work under.
The barn where my horse is boarded has a metal, insulated arena. The walls and ceiling are white and there are windows all along both sides. Because of the white walls, it is very bright. It is air tight, so no drafts in the winter. If I had my way, I would have made the windows bigger for more air flow (there are 2 huge sliding doors but they are tough to move without help) It does get a bit stuffy in there on warm, humid, windless days. Because the ceiling is insulated, we don't get a lot of noise from rain or snow sliding off. The only spook factor to this arena is occassionally the barn cats get under the roof and sound like a heard of elephants as they play up there. The first time I heard that, it was right over my head and both my horse and I startled a bit. We're used to it now - the kitties seem to enjoy romping around up there so it's a common occurrance...silly cats!
Anyway, hope that helps a bit....
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 5:32 pm:
Well, the darn weather cancelled my road trip, so it will be another month before I can reschedule and check out that arena. I'm very disappointed.
Windows in an arena would be a fair bit more expensive than just using that clear corrugated siding stuff - the name escapes me at the moment. Maybe a person could frame a panel of that stuff so you had light, and hinge the panel to open and close it for air flow. I really like being in my outdoor during the summer months, and I would miss the breeze. Gale force winds I could live without, however! There's sure plenty of that around here.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2009 - 9:17 pm:
I was just going to say that we don't heat our arena but the snow slides off anyway as the light colored roof with the heat from the sun. However, we live in an area where there is a huge difference in temps from night and day and from day to day. When it warms up the snow slides. It doesn't seem to take long for the horses to get used to the noise.
I think any type of arena will have it's pros and cons certainly. I'm not sure there is a "perfect." All of the metal/wood arenas I've ridden it had problems with insulation. It seems to work good when new, but when the building gets older moisture builds up in the insulation and it begins to get heavy and falls down. If I were going to insulate the roof, I'd try and use a foam core insulation instead of fiber-glass.
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 - 1:50 pm:
I have a metal barn we just built this past summer, and it's not insulated. If I was going to do it, I would think some kind of rigid insulation would definitely be the best way to go. The rain is sure loud on that roof! The lightest sprinkle sounds like a downpour.
Just talked to a guy here who build BioTech buildings, which is the same type of building as a CoverAll. He builds with a laminated wooden arch up to 50' wide, and with metal up to 115' wide.
He's been putting them up since 1960, still has the first one he ever built on his property (wood arch), and says the frame is just like new. I could hardly believe how affordable they were! A 30' x 70' building on a pony wall (wood arch), installed, is approx $8600. The cover is good for 15-20 years, and to replace it is $1800. He's built 60 of them just in the valley here so he gave me a list of some closer to me that I could go and see different features on. He said they heat one of their buildings with a tiger torch and a propane tank, and when it's -30 C it takes about 1 1/2 hours to get it up above 0 degrees, and they use the building as a wash bay.
Thought I'd share that for anyone else who was wondering about building something similar.
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Member:
realtor
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 - 2:51 pm:
Hi Michelle,
I am wondering where the company is located? That sounds a lot cheaper than the cover all buildings. I know when I looked into them I was quoted at around $60,000 for a 60X100 building. It would be great to an arena under $20,000!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 26, 2009 - 8:51 pm:
With the Cover-All at least, there is a big price jump when you excede a certain width/length. Farm-tech catalogue has fabric covered buildings also, but the aren't warranteed for as long as the Cover-All and again price really jumps with a wider expanse.
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 2, 2009 - 8:55 pm:
Sorry, I meant to reply sooner, but my son's been sick all week, and I kind of spent all my time just hanging out with him and ignoring my computer.
The company has dealers all across Canada, to the best of my knowledge, not sure if they are in the states, too, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are.
Apparently what makes this so inexpensive is the wood arch instead of the metal ones, and the different foundation that you can use because of that. With the wood arch, a pony wall is built using treated fence posts - 8' tall, 5-6" thick or bigger. With the metal arch, a different foundation is required, and you have to auger a hole and pour a cement support (basically a fat cement post) for each arch. This jumps the cost up dramatically, as does the cost of the metal arch versus the steel.
This guy can build me something up to 50' wide with a wooden arch, and up to 115' wide if I go to a metal one. For a 50x100' wood arch building, it's $15,900 (Canadian), plus pony wall, plus labor, and end walls ($500 each for a single large door, $400 for no door). So, let's say all in, probably $21,000 with your taxes and labor, but not including landscaping.
Yesterday I took a drive to see one of his building near by. It was very striking, all white with a wide black stripe at each end, and both big doors were also black.
I'm still talking to my neighbor trying to get him to sell me the couple of acres I need to build all this, but his land is mortgaged through MACC and FCC (Farm credit corporations) and the darn companies (at the moment) won't let him sell because it would take crop land out of production. All I need is two measly little acres!! I could generate 3 to 5 jobs with that in the next 3 years, and twice that in the next 6 years, but they don't want to lose crop land. Sheesh. Anyway, I'm drawing and measuring and redesigning layouts so that I can trim it down as much as possible and make it look better to the government so that I can get this stuff built. What a pain in the behind.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 1:29 pm:
The building sounds great. In Canada do you have to get government approval or is that so your neighbor can sell to you? Here we have to get local building permits and have things inspected to see that they meet building codes, but that is all.
My one comment would be that 50' isn't very wide if you are doing more than a slow trot imo, even with one horse and if you can use the entire 50' width. The faster the gait, the smaller the arena gets!
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 7:51 pm:
The government approval is only because they are the mortgage holders on the loan for the farm land, and they object to it being sold and taken out of cultivation. I only learned of this 2 weeks ago, myself. A building permit will be necessary, I'm sure.
As for the 50' width, yeah, I'm with you Sara, it's too narrow. My outdoor is 80' wide and I still want another 20+ feet. However, the building would be used for human/horse therapy, learning, counselling, etc, and the exercises are all done on the ground, not mounted.
I'd like to start with the smaller building, get the business going, save some money and build the bigger arena which would then do dual purpose as my therapy business during the day, and rentals for events on evenings and weekends. There is no local indoor arena here available for such things at this time, so I'm hoping it would be popular, but I still wouldn't rely on rentals to pay the bills. I could use the smaller building for barn space, storage, etc.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 8:35 pm:
That sounds like a great idea, Michelle!
btw, do you know Corinne? I believe she does some theraputic riding and might have some insights.
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Member:
mleeb
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Posted on Friday, Apr 3, 2009 - 11:20 pm:
That sounds like a new thread! Tips and insight into therapeutic riding/equine assisted learning etc etc. I'm aiming for the assisted learning program myself. I teach enough 4H kids to ride as it is, and I know my limits!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 11:17 am:
I for one would love a thread like that! We could all learn a lot from it, I think.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 4, 2009 - 8:41 pm:
I second that - would love to learn more about using horses as therapy. Lilo
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