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Discussion on 9 1/2 weeks into castration
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Member:
morg1
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Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 8:35 am:
Hi all,
I gelded my 4 year old Paint stallion March 20th, almost 9 1/2 weeks ago. He is quieter, but he was a pretty quiet stallion as long as he wasn't right next to a mare. I have had him separated from mares all this time. Last night, I put him in with a mare (after the fact, I realized that she was in heat or I wouldn't have put them together), but you wouldn't know he is a gelding. He immediately started flirting with her and mounting her. At this point, will he ever become a traditional gelding, or is this what I can expect from him in the future? He was also running off and being aggressive to a gelding that only 7 months ago was his sole pasture mate.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 11:24 am:
It isn't uncommon for it to take several months for a castration to change behavior, if not longer in some cases. Also, I believe it's possible for your stallion to still be fertile at this point in time.
Is the gelding in with the stallion and mare? If so, stallion behavior would be to keep the gelding as far away from the mare as possible, whether the gelding is a friend or not. In fact, many stallions will be very aggressive to geldings, just as they would be to another stallion. I'd be very careful and treat him as a stallion until his behavior changes.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 2:35 pm:
Karen,
IMHO, 9 1/2 weeks out from gelding a stallion was too soon to be put in with a mare. My choice would be to put him out with a well behaved gelding like his old pasturemate.
Also horse personalities differ quite a bit when there are three horses turned out together especially if they have not been turned out together before.
When I gelded my 18 month old pacing colt, I did not trust him to behave himself until about 9 months after his gelding and then I turned him out with a 13 year old gelding with whom he behaved. Once I could trust is behavior with the older guy, I turned him out with my mare. It was a non-event ( she got along with everyone I turned her out with). However, when trying to turn three of them out ( 2 mares and the new gelding) together, that just did not work and I had to remove the new gelding before someone got hurt.
I would have had better luck if I had another field to turn out in since in my experience horses get protective of their turf sometimes and when a new horse is added to the mix it doesn't work. But I only had one paddock, so I had to work around the problem.
I also didn't think it was a matter of liking or disliking the horses they were in with because I could turn the colt out with both mares as long as it was only one mare at a time and had no problems with that.
I knew I was fairly safe, when my one mare that was always in heat when the new gelding was a colt (both of them couldn't be in the barn together)stopped urinating every 5 minutes when he was around.
Rachelle
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 3:36 pm:
I think it's true every situation is different. I gelded one colt at 15 months and it took him 6 weeks to realize it. Last Tuesday I gelded another at 14 months and he got in the trailer to go to the vet a fully aware and functional stallion. When he got out of the trailer later that afternoon at home, he was all gelding! And has been ever since, even with my two year old filly in heat. I was astonished!
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Member:
morg1
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Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 5:19 pm:
Thanks for replying. I did remove the gelding and felt as of yesterday that it wasn't safe to catch the "the one who thinks he's a stallion" back while he was so excited. There is also a yearling gelding in this mix, but he has been completely ignored. He is actually sired by the "ex-stallion" and out of this very mare. I read the article and it suggested that it would take 4 to 8 weeks for him to lose his interest (at least that is what I understood), and my vet told me 60 days. Since he has been isolated all this time I thought that I was safe. I guess I should have put him nearer to other horses first. I was hoping to send him to a trainer for more training. Maybe I'll just have to do that right now and hope he comes back more of a "gentleman." I wasn't sure if there was a risk of pregnancy or not. I will watch the mare and make sure she cycles again. Thanks for sharing. I'm just glad that there is hope that he might still be a "gelding" yet, because as I was telling my husband I do not want to own a gelding that you have to treat as a stallion. This is the whole reason I gelded him in the first place.
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Member:
mitch316
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Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 5:34 pm:
Well, if its any consolation, I have an 11 year old gelding who was castrated at the age of 15 months. Guess who I caught mounting my poor buckskin the other day? And now he has taken to herding the other mares, just like a stallion in the wild would. He has never before done this, so I do not know why. I am thinking it is the addition of three new stud horses at the farm across the road from ours who shrill and challenge each other all day and night. Seems like every time one of them farts, the others are up in arms. They are separated, but I don't know how long that will last. And my Joe is challenging right back...and now romancing. Who knows, must be something in the air.
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Member:
morg1
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Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 8:39 pm:
Hi Jesse, You know that reminds me. The gelding that I removed from the pasture was actually flirting with and mounting this same mare the last time she was in heat. I have never seen this gelding do this before and we have owned him for 12 years (he is 17), but he has been pastured with young stallions almost exclusively for the past 6 years. He was pastured with mares and geldings before then, and for the past 7 months with mares until about a month ago I added the yearling gelding into the mix. I thought it was odd when he did that at the time, but maybe it is a learned response to being around so much testosterone for so long. He has always been a very passive horse (I've seen him back away from weanling fillies) and really a loner, he mostly hangs out by himself no matter what group he is with. Maybe it is something in the air. 
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 10:03 pm:
In the articles on this site, DrO refers to research on this question. Apparently, the age of gelding has little to do with the eventual behavior of the horse, and some geldings are simply more "riggy" than others, no matter their prior experience or age at castration. I do believe that many stallions end up poorly socialized with other horses, and this can be a problem when they are tossed into a group setting post-castration. The surgery doesn't train or socialize them, of course, so any problems in those areas persist.
My vet believes that the *season* of gelding matters, and for that reason I gelded my 6 year-old breeding stallion in the winter, before his spring testosterone spike. But I don't know whether there's research out there on this question.
So the studies suggest that your now-gelding may eventually settle, but also that he may not. Fun, eh? Certainly you will have to be guided by the horse's behavior, and proceed very carefully.
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Member:
morg1
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Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 11:40 pm:
I could see that the season could make a difference. I would have gelded him a year ago, but I had to convince the hubby first. I hope to make him into my personal riding/trail horse. He is normally very quiet natured, even as a stallion. He's fairly well socialized. He was kept in a group consisting of 2 mares and 2 fillies until he started to notice he was a boy the spring of his yearling year. I then pastured him with the gelding mentioned above until last fall. After that, he was pastured sharing a fence line with a bred mare. He could talk to her, and she him but not reach each other through the fence (the fence was backed up with hot wire). They got along fine.
Tonight things seemed much more settled in the pasture (not flirting with the mare like last night or this morning), so I left him there. It was just easier than shuffling horses again. He is still really tolerant of the yearling gelding, even letting him share food from his feed pan. I guess he sees him as a baby.
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 11:25 am:
My childhood show gelding was in LOVE with my mom's mare. He had been gelded as a yearling and never showed any 'studdy' behavior, but once in a while, he would mount this one mare (out of the dozen others) and attempt to breed her. LOL It was the funniest thing.
Since your 'gelding' bred while he was a stud, I would think you have more than just the hormones getting out of his system to deal with - you also have the stud like behavior to contend with, which could take longer. It sounds like things are settling down now though. You may just have to keep him with only mares or only geldings for a while, or possibly forever, since he may see any new male that enters the group as a threat. I personally would get him away from the mare for a while, as this may keep reinforcing his studdy behavior, and put him with geldings, so long as he isn't overly aggressive with them.
Good luck. 
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 5:20 pm:
I was taught that the "stallion like" behaviors are not only related to the testosterone hormone from his testicles, but also from chemicals in the brain, and that even when you geld a horse he is still a male, and still has all the male actions. i was told that some horses will act more "male" than others. I was also taught that it can take up to 6 months for those hormones to be moved thru the body after gelding, and that while he may be firing blanks, his mind may still think he's a stallion.
My little pony will act studdy at times, even though he has been a gelding for 20 years. I've seen him mount mares and penetrate, although he is easily controllable and not particularly studdy when around them. He does act dominate in a herd, and is generally alpha, though not a mean alpha...
FWIW
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Member:
morg1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 9:40 pm:
Oh, he "Ace" definitely still thinks he is a stallion. Yes, I understood that there is a possibility that this might just be how he is, but I wanted to know how long I would have to wait to know for sure. I guess that I will commit to dealing with him as a stallion for at least 6 months and re-evaluate after that.
The mare is now out of heat and everything is completely calm now in the pasture. As it stands now you wouldn't know that he ever acted like a stallion as recently as yesterday. I'm going to keep him with the mare and yearling gelding for the time being. I only have one other gelding on the place and he is the one Ace was attacking, and he actually belongs to my mom. I don't feel that it is wise at this point to put them back together. The gelding is overweight and doesn't need to be put back out on that pasture, so the smaller acreage where he is currently is perfect for him.
I'm hoping to send Ace to my trainer, so maybe I should just do that before the mare comes into heat again, and it will do him good to think about something else for a month or so. Maybe he will come back a different horse. Well, it doesn't hurt to hope.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 9:59 pm:
Of course you will do this, but make sure your trainer has stallion facilities and is willing to deal with a horse who may potentially be a stallion in all but the "closing shot."
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Member:
morg1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 10:42 pm:
Oh, my trainer will take just about everything. My stallions are kids' horses compared to some of the nasty stallions he has trained for clients. He is also my farrier, so he is well aware of what he has to work with. He has a great ability to get the best from a horse (well, I'm sure there are exceptions).
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Member:
morg1
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Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 12:38 pm:
I just wanted to update you on how Ace is doing. I did keep him with the mare and yearling gelding all summer, and they were the sweetest group together. They always stayed close and would even share out of the same feed pan (all 3 at the same time) with no problems. I did add 2 mares to this group, and although Ace tolerated them in the pasture he never allowed them to join his group. In October, I moved him and the yearling gelding to a pasture on their own, and about a month later I added the mare from "his" group, and an unfamiliar mare to him. At that point, he behaved no different than a gelding trying to establish his place (pecking order) in the herd. In fact, he quickly lost interest in both mares.
He is currently in training and even the trainer agreed that you would not know now that he was castrated late.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 5:04 pm:
Thanks for the update Karen.
DrO
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