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Discussion on 2009 Adding some Deet
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 4:16 pm:
Maybe it's just me, but I seem to use the entire can of OFF in about 2 days when I try to use it for flyspray. This year, I've been buying DEET and just adding it to normal flyspray-- I find those applicators more efficient, and they don't have the "cold blast" problem. The easy way to do this is to buy a couple bottles of Deep Woods Sportsmen (98% Deet), pry the cap off, and dump into the normal flyspray.....
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Member:
tamarag
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 4:36 pm:
Have you tried the https://www.spalding-labs.com/Horses/Default.aspx no more spraying our horses...praying no more Pigeon Fever this year!
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 6:47 pm:
Elizabeth, that is a great idea. Necessity is the mother of invention.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 7:07 pm:
great idea , just priced it tho.. $7.00 for one ounce! So add one ounce per fly spray bottle??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
jjrichar
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 7:50 pm:
That is a good idea! I have used fly predators from spalding, and will probably again this year, They work great for the flies but they don't work for ticks or mosquitoes.
I too am curious about the amount to mix, etc.?
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 8:22 pm:
I'm experimenting with one bottle of the OFF in a mostly-full bottle of Endure. I shake it before each use, assuming the deet separates. The mostly-pure deet can be pricey, but isn't $7 everywhere. I think I paid just under $5 for my bottle.
I can't prove it's working, but my very sensitive drama queen ex-stallion worked quietly for more than an hour in a cloud of bugs for several days in a row.
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Member:
wgillmor
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Posted on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 10:21 pm:
This site claims 10oz 199% Deet for $4.04. I don't know the shipping or why it is about 10x+ less expensive than OFF quoted above.
https://www.thisthatandeverything.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=DD638718&cli ck=4492
Wiley
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 12:17 am:
Thanks Wiley! Ground shipping to CO is the same for 4 units as 1, and is $5.56. So 4 units are even cheaper than 1 per oz. I could make my horses into slip-and-slides!
Deet is a pretty cheap compound, so I'd guess these guys can still make money at this price.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 7:12 am:
Great idea, Elizabeth. With Memorial Day weekend just 2 days away, I will look for sales on OFF and give it a try myself. While I've had ticks problems in my yard (picking them off my daughter, puppy and myself - yuck!) I've not found them out at the barn. However, last year my mare reacted to bug bites (not sure what type) on her fetlocks and I'm hoping if I'm proactive and aggressive with protecting that area on her, she won't have the same issue this year.
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 8:29 am:
Honest questions here:
Before WNV, wasn't there huge pressure to ban DEET because of carcinogenic concerns?
I remember as a kid having fun at summer camp by melting plastic pens and gluing friend's fold up rain ponchos into wads of welded plastic with my 98% deet fly spray. (We would also suck the newbie kid into putting some on her lips and watch them swell up like balloons.)
Today I use the stuff only sparingly and still get a rash (divine retribution for my evil ways as a child, perhaps?)
DEET works wonderfully as a fly repellant, but it is not without side effects. Should we be using it on horses?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 9:16 am:
Hello CherylA,
Research into this subject shows that the ill effects of DEET usage at levels recommended in our article on are often overstated and DEET remains a very safe effective insect repellant, for more see Horse Care » Routine Horse Care » Controlling Houseflies and Biting Flies. Of course those who are allergic to it, and a rash would be a primary sign, should not use it.
For those above who are diluting the 99% product be sure to dilute it at least to the level suggested in the article.
DrO
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 9:22 am:
All,
I have been monitoring this discussion since the first post and I'd like to share my observations about fly spray in general and fly spray with Deet. We are fighting a losing battle. Over the many years I have been involved with horses, I have yet to find any fly spray that works effectively over a long period of time and for a variety of different types of insects. Some work ok for flies, but need to be reapplied often even if the spray says it will not wash off.
The mosquitos, gnats and ticks are a completely different set of problems requiring different chemicals to combat them. While adding Deet may make the fly spray a bit more potent, it is still more chemicals than I care to deal with. Fly sprays with and without Deet may cause allergic reactions with certain horses which may be worse than dealing with the insects.
I have a very skin sensitive mare, I do not know why she is like this, but anything other than water that I use on her, I get a reaction, so chemical based Fly sprays are out.
For the past several years, I have been using Bug Free Garlic by Springtime Inc. on a year round basis and have not needed much fly spray at all. When I do need some extra protection, I use diluted Skin-so-soft by Avon. My horses are out almost 24/7 and I see all the bugs including the gnats, which seem to be the most bothersome in my area. What I do not see is my horses being uncomfortable, swishing their tails a lot, or stamping their feet to get rid of the little pests. I have not found any ticks and the mosquitos don't seem to be around as much either.
So, if my choices are to use a lot of chemicals or use a small scoop of garlic once a day. The garlic gets my nod of approval.
There have been several discussions here about the use of garlic in horses and that perhaps it could be toxic, so I have had bloodwork done on several of my horses and everything came back normal. The bloodwork was done after 2 1/2 years of daily garlic consumption, so if there was going to be a toxic effect, it would have shown up in the bloodwork.
I can only speak from my experience and my experience says the less chemicals around horses the better, especially if you can find something else that works as well or better.
Just my thoughts
Rachelle
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 9:42 am:
I used Bug-Off Garlic for a couple of summers on an old horse who was terribly bothered by Black Flies and other biting insects. I always joked that my barn smelled like an Italian Restaurant.
I didn't find that the results were worth the cost, but maybe if I had used it on ALL the horses it would have made a difference? It was cost prohibitive to me.
A friend in Texas sent this e-mail this morning. Don't know if this formula works or not, but it's not too expensive to give it a try:
**************************************
This is great for kennels as well to run off fleas and flies. I have used this for years on dogs and horses both, it also clears up any fungus. I gave this recipe to a friend of mine couple of weeks ago, his brother has a dog rescue place, and he got rid of all the fleas and flies around the place, on top of curing the dry skin, and fly bites on their ears. My friend used it on his mare's white face, sunburned and scaly, and it is all nice and smooth now. They were both ecstatic to use this since it so much cheaper...
1 Gallon Water
2 Cups Vinegar (any kind, any color)
2 Cups Mouthwash (any brand-I like original
Listerine best but storebrand is okay)
Cheapest at Sams, you can get a 2-gallon box of vinegar for about 3.50 and a 2 liter of Listerine for 6.00 which is less than at Walmart. I have many horses so I get these large quantities. Believe me this works well and your barn smells nice and fresh too. I spray the walls with it about once a week to help keep the flies down. The Listerine will kill fungus and drive away the flies and fleas, the vinegar takes good care of their haircoat.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 10:49 am:
Just a reminder to those of you living in areas that have ticks; make sure you are aware of the signs of lymes in yourselves as well as your animals. I have a friend who almost died from this desease before it was finally correctly diagnosed and she is still having health problems and must be on severe antibiotics from time to time, many years later. She lives in the Reno, NV area, which supposidly doesn't have lymes, which is one reason it took so long to be properly diagnosed.
Rachelle, I agree about all the chemicals! I can't use Skin-So-Soft because I'M allergic to it! I'm also allergic to several of the fly sprays as is one of our stallions. I've had good luck with fly sheets and masks, fly predators, and fly tapes and traps with sprays being my last resort. I'm going to try the receipe Holly posted though, as both the horses and I should do o.k. with the ingredients.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 11:00 am:
Really the only good scientific study we have on garlic ingestion as a biting insect repellent did not find a effect:
Med Vet Entomol. 2005 Mar;19(1):84-9.
A double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial of garlic as a mosquito repellant: a preliminary study.
Rajan TV, Hein M, Porte P, Wikel S.
Department of Pathology, University of Connecticut Health Center, Farmington, CT 06030-3105, USA. rajan@neuron.uchc.edu
The hypothesis that the ingestion of garlic provides protection against bloodsucking pests such as mosquitoes was investigated using a randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled crossover study. Subjects were asked to consume either garlic (one visit) or a placebo (the other visit). They were then exposed to laboratory-reared Aedes aegypti (Linnaeus) (Diptera: Culicidae). The numbers of mosquitoes that did not feed on the subjects, the number of mosquito bites, the weights of the mosquitoes after feeding and the amounts of blood ingested were determined. The data did not provide evidence of significant systemic mosquito repellence. A limitation of the study is that more prolonged ingestion of garlic may be needed to accomplish repellence.
The problem with the summary statement that more and longer treatment may be effective is that garlic is a known toxin when fed to horses for four days at 0.2gm/kg. It damages the RBC membrane resulting in a Heintz Body anemia. This is a pretty big dose but we do not know if lower levels fed longer may also induce poisoning but it is highly likely the damage is cumulative.
Fed garlic is a product of unknown effectivness and toxic though the lowest toxic dose with long term use not known. We have several reports of no effectiveness seen with the use of garlic on this sight despite the horses stinking to high heaven (though I personally love garlic and fortunately so does my wife).
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 12:44 pm:
Regarding fly sprays, I've personally found that making home made is just as good as anything you can buy. And a lot cheaper. Some where on HA I posted my recipe probably more than once; I'll look for it later and post it but basically its the one with Dawn dish soup, apple cider vinegar, and various assorted essential oils. Citronella, or whatever, eucalyptus (sorry, drawing blanks on spelling)lemon grass, etc.
As for garlic, I love it, and believe in it's medicinal properties for us to eat, apply as chest pastes (never did that one), make cough syrups, and 101 other remedies.
My experiences with horses as far as eating it, most didn't like it, and one broke out in a sweat. Garlic is very heating and stimulating, do eat before bed if you want to sleep!
If you research garlic, you will find it has different properties depending on if freshly cut, cut and allowed to sit, dried, in oil, etc. Not sure if any of that makes a dif for fly repellants.
What I did find was if I sprinkled the garlic in the stalls, I didn't have flies. (Or vampires!) But like Holly says, it's pretty expensive! So my one bucket went in the stalls, not fed.
DrO,
I find it hard to think of garlic as being toxic, interesting.
Sara,
I tried spraying Listerine last year in the shed when I was cleaning it, and it was supposed to knock out the mosquitoes, it did NOTHING...I also believe in masks, and other "non toxic" methods as much as possible. The best remedy is keeping horses in during the buggy spells, letting them graze during the evening if possible.
I just came in from riding, and quit because the gnats or whatever, were so awful! And this is with winds gusting 20-30 mph!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 1:57 pm:
Dr. O and all,
I like the smell of garlic too. The only time the garlic smells is when it goes into the feed tub. My horses do not smell of garlic and they have been on it for years.
I read that research study and if I remember correctly, those study horses were given very large amounts over a very short period of time.
My horses are getting very small amounts ( 1 tablespoon, once a day)over a long period of time with no toxicity.
I also noticed that the manure does not attract flies either, so there may be a feed-through action as well.
When I started with the garlic, I started about three weeks before the fly season started and all my horses were put on it at the same time. I also started very slowly adding a little bit at a time until the dosage was where it was supposed to be. My colt at certain times did have a problem eating it, but as I found out later it was usually when I opened up a new jar. My solution to that was to leave the jar open for a couple of days and then start feeding it. That seemed to do the trick.
At the time I was in a barn where no other horses were on any type of pest control ( except sticky strips) and even though there were pests in the barn, my horses did not seem to be affected even if there were insects all around them.
I'll stick with what I am doing as it is working well for me.
Rachelle}
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 2:43 pm:
Last year I used a feed through fly control as well as the fly predators I have bought for years. I thought the combo helped somewhat with the flies.
Problem is, we are surrounded by horse farms, and I wonder how much of my efforts are in vain because not everyone uses them. Having cattle nearby is an instant fly-booster. One neighbor has them now and I am bracing for the face flies.
I use Off before I ride. I find that spraying it on a brush wastes less than trying to coat the horse with spray. I can get it on their ears and face easier that way, too.
Erika
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 4:50 pm:
Erika, I sympathise with having other horse farms around. We are in an area with lots of cows, many of them in dry lots; we also have a lot of sheep around us. None of the farmers/ranchers do anything for fly and pest contral as far as I can tell, nor do they clean up manure - ever. It really makes it difficult to control flies as they all seem to migrate over to our place even though we do everything we can to get rid of them. If it weren't for the neighboring farms, I think we'd have almost no flies. Short of covering your entire property with a large screen dome, how do you deal with all the flies from neighbors?
Angie, I'd forgotten about that Dawn mixture. It really works?
Rachel, what brand of garlic do you use? How much does it cost per horse?
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 5:14 pm:
Oh, Sara, the neighbors with horses for the most part keep their places very clean. Everyone but the new one (with the cows) picks up their manure. She is just starting out with some organic farming, and I am hoping she is environmentally-minded as to waste management! haha!
So it isn't terrible, but I still sometimes feel like it is in vain to fight with parasites and feed-throughs without the entire neighborhood doing it. I suppose it makes a dent anyway.
But I still use the bug spray for all the other blackflies, gnats, mosquitos, ticks, etc, etc, etc!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 6:19 pm:
I wish my neighbors were as good! 
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 8:26 pm:
Sara,
I use Bug Free Garlic manufactured by Springtime Inc. www.springtimeinc.com. They always have some really good specials. I just got a circular from them and they are advertising a buy two and get two free special. I get the 5 lb jars. This special gets you 20 lbs for $90.
If you are interested in trying it and don't want to spend that much money, buy the dog size, you would get 4 (1 lb jars)for $21, 4 lbs lasts 1 horse many months. The only difference is that you need a bigger scoop for the horses.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 7:13 am:
Rachelle,
How many horses do you use it on, and how long does it last you? Trying to get an estimate on cost for 4 horses. I might try it again, this is powder, right? What I used before was granules I think.
Interesting to see if our dogs would eat it also, might have to mix it in a small amount of meat or bread that they swallow in one gulp!
It might not be any more expensive than buying fly spray, which I did last summer because I had trouble finding the the cintronella oil online to make my home made spray.
At least we have a shorter fly season than some of you!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 8:34 am:
That is right trotter, the dosages were large, they were fed what I have seen estimated at 4 cups per day and the toxicity developed after 4 days. What we do not know is what are the results of long term use and that the cell membrane damage may well be cumulative over the 120 day life span of the RBC.
And there are complicating factors. Take for instance exposure to wild onions a very common event for many horses. Their have been cases of wild onion poisoning that occurred naturally. The toxin and toxicity is the same so garlic supplementation would be expected to potentiate wild onions toxicity.
I always thought that if garlic was shown to be an effective bug repellent the toxicity argument a bit specious because of the dosages but that would have to determined experimentally. The problem is the smidgen of evidence we have and the preponderance of experience I have had suggest it is a poor substitute for DEET when it comes to repelling biting insects.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 10:48 am:
If you need a "natural" fly spray, the only one that I've had success with is by Equus, the Marigold spray. I think it is no longer sold as "fly spray" per se but something else. It has marigolds on the label. It seems to work for about the same length as all the other fly sprays, but is pretty pricey, imo. There used to be a spray sold in the Dover catalog that was the best I've ever used. It came in an orange bottle and was called "Clac" or something like that. I can no longer find it. It actually lasted an entire day.
Is the Deet effective on deer flies? If we ride in the woods or around the mtn. lakes at certain times of year there are lots of deer flies to make your ride miserable.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 7:40 pm:
Hi Sara,
I haven't found deet to be especially effective with deerflies. Moving cross country is the only thing that seemed to work for me.....
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 11:02 pm:
Well, THAT's not happening! I'm through moving!
I just picked up the latest issue of Prevention Magazine (having been informed by one of my sons that "only OLD people read it! LOL! " There's an article on natural alternatives to conventional insect repellents. I know they are talking about people, but some of this might be of interest.
According to Dr. Weil, author of the article, Geraniol, a compound derived from geranium plants, repels "a variety of insects including mosquitoes, fleas, and fire ants." A recent study showed Geraniol candles 5 times more effective than citronella candles at preventing mosquito bites.
The CDC recommends oil of lemon eucalyptus which studies show repels mosquitoes and deer ticks almost as well as products with Deet over a 6 hr. period. It's sold under the brand name "Repel."
Studies showed citronella oil repelled mosquitoes for only about 20 mins., and Skin So Soft repelled bugs for only 10 mins. There is a new version of Skin So Soft, called Skin So Soft Bug Guard Plus, containing picaridin, which is a synthetic repellent as effective as Deet, but which also has a toxicity risk.
Garlic, while excellent for your heart is useless for bugs. The article says that garlic lowers elevated blood pressure, protects arteries and veins, and reduces the risk of blook clots. The recommended dose is 2 medium cloves per day. If garlic cloves are crushed and left to sit at room temperature for about 15 mins. before being used in cooking, this will trigger and enzymatic reaction that boosts the healthy compounds.
This same article talked about other herbs. Curcumin, found in turmeric, is as effective as potent anti-inflammatory drugs for the morning stiffness and joint swelling of RA when taken at 400 to 600 mg 3x/day. Horse chestnut reduces swelling in legs, esp. swelling from vericose veins; in fact, it worked as well as compressing hose. The best, another good usage for chocolate: dark chocolate was more effective at calming persistent coughs than codeine. The article didn't say how much of it you would have to eat. 
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 11:28 pm:
Wait, wait, wait....You don't have to use Off or straight Deet products over the whole body of your horse! Use your regular fly spray for flys, then hit the points of vunerability on the horse with Deet....I usually do under the chin, where the ticks crawl up while they are grazing, all four feet and lower legs, another area where the ticks gain access, and between the back legs and lower abdominal area.....where the ticks LOVE to attach on the delicate exposed skin. Remember, the Deet is to repel the mosquitoes ( especially those carrying West Nile ) and ticks ( that carry much worse ). I mean, we're not talking about annoying fly bites and dive bomber ( HORSE FLIES ) attacks....we're talking about serious carriers of nasty viral and bacterial diseases. I would NOT call Deet a flyspray. And if you're lucky enough to live somewhere that doesn't have West Nile issues, or tick problems, then you probably don't need Deet. Just stick to whatever fly stuff works for you.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 7:36 am:
Sara,
Please inform your son that this "old person" here has been reading Prevention magazine for at least 10 years, and I may be middle aged, but I am not OLD!
I am not sure I agree with Dr. Weil on the garlic for what he's stating, I thought they did studies on it, and found some of those claims were false. Of course, we all know that what studies "prove" can be misleading. I wouldn't stop eating or taking garlic, I do believe it has health benefits. As I always say: "Garlic kills viruses, germs, worms, fungus."
My fly spray recipe calls for
Dawn
AC vinegar
Citronella
Eucalyptus
Lemon Oil
Cedarwood Oil
I've experimented with adding:
Neem
Tea Tree
Pine Oil
My recipe varies according to what I can find.
And as bad as the bugs are getting, I'd better start shopping!
BTW, I found that I could not take horse chestnut, and I thought I read something negative about it. Curcumin is IMO, safer.
Always research herbals on the German E Commission website. They seem to be pretty accurate and up to date, IMO again.
Off to find that newest Prevention magazine.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 7:50 am:
https://www.bugband.net/index.php
Link to a site that has the info on geraniol.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 8:22 am:
https://ancienthealingoils.com/html/essential_oils.html
This site offers many essential oils, along with a description of what it is used for.
I checked many of them, and so far came up with the following as being good for insect repellants:
Citronella,
Eucalyptus, lemon
Lemon grass,
Geranium, Rose (I guess that is a source of the geraniol)
the following don't say insect repellant:
Tea Tree Oil (stinks bad enough to repel most anything!)
Lavender
Pine Oil
Cedarwood Oil
Thyme
Clove
Peppermint..but peppermint is said to inhance other oils.
Didn't see any "garlic oil" ;-)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 8:51 am:
Contrary to elk's experience above I have good luck with 30% DEET repelling deer flies. Be sure to rub their ears with it well and you can watch them buzz but not light: unless you missed a spot.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 9:11 am:
A big glob off Swat rubbed all over ears and poll works very well too. Messy but effective I still highly recommend the quiet ride mask with ears tho...very easy, no chemicals and the deer flies don't bother them.
Why is is deer flies mostly go for ears and the poll I wonder. I see one on the upper neck once in awhile but I can swat them.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 9:44 am:
Angie,
At one point I had 5 horses on the Bug free garlic, a 4lb jar lasted be quite some time for all of them(More than a month). When I go to the barn today I'll look at the dosage amount. It works better over time as it takes 2-4 weeks for maximum effect. I have used both types granules and air-dried powder. I got basically the same results, but I found the Bug-free garlic more cost effective over the long haul and with multiple horses.
Dr. O,
I would think that if garlic had a toxic effect on horses that my race mare would show some signs of the toxicity in her performance or in her blood work. She is racing super and she looks great. She has been on low dose garlic for several years and does not seem to be bothered by any bugs. Don't get me wrong, the bugs are still around, they just don't seem to land on her and bite her. Also, remember that this horse is quite sensitive to anything except water, so if she was getting bitten up out in the field ( where she is almost 24/7). I would see it immediately.
Maybe we should use her as a test case. I can vouch for the fact that she has not missed one day of garlic in at least 2 1/2 years. Is there a blood test I could do to test the toxicity in her RBC?
Rachelle
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 10:42 am:
Just to be trouble-maker.......I wanted to point out that Pyrethrins (the active ingredient in a lot of "chemical" repellents) is a natural product that comes from Gerber daisies.
https://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1990/v1-528.html
Erika
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 11:14 am:
Deer flies must differ by area. The ones around here go for the neck and shoulder, but are happy to bite anywhere and espcially like the rider's legs.
Erika, I've wondered about that. Some of the "natural" sprays also contain pyrethrins, but they specify they are "natural" and from marigolds. Are there synthetic versions and are they more harmful than the natural version?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 3:02 pm:
Rachelle,
Thanks for info on garlic & how long it lasted you.
Just for fun & FYI, here's another link to a bunch of homemade fly sprays:
https://www.moniteausaddleclub.com/flyspray_recipes.htm
How about the one for 1/2 pinesol, and 1/2 water?!
Anyone know if Pinesol is toxic? I may have some that around.
I noticed on this link, none had the assortment of essential oils I normally use.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 12:05 am:
Yes, Sara, the synthetic form of pyrethrin is permethrin. Google it, you will see more toxicity listed. Apparently not as safe.
I do have to question you all with the homemade mixtures. Do you question the safety of the ingredients being used in the way you intend? Just because it cleans your teeth, toilet, scents your room...does that mean it's safe on your,or your horse's skin?
I mean, I saw a crime show the other night that told how eyeDrOps can kill a person who eats/drinks them. So, are you mixing up stuff that may be okay for the usage intended, but not tested as well as the commercial brands that HAVE been tested?
Just a consideration.
Erika
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 6:43 am:
Sara, here is some soap you can bathe with to keep deer flies away and some spray for the horse...wonder if it works
https://www.handmade-natural-soap.net/Natural_Bug_Repellent/deer-fly-repellent.ht ml
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 9:09 am:
Erika,
Good point. I wouldn't consider doing the Pinesol mixture. I feel safe with my mixture of 3-4 essential oils and soap. Although I do question if the Dawn is needed? I think some of the recipes were calling for oil, or hair conditioner, or glycerin.
I wonder if the Dawn isn't just to give the oils staying power and not any special kind of repellant?
Elk,
Are there ready made fly sprays with DEET and other repellants already mixed?
One last point, consider how these ingredients work. Do they just keep the nasties away, or do they actually kill them?
I remember years ago putting the "spot on" type of stuff on my horses. I used bare hands to do so, and I was ill for almost 2 weeks. When I researched the product, I THINK it came up that it worked by paralyzing the insect...and it was to work almost 2 weeks on the horses.
I felt paralyzed with fatigue, and with "flu like" aches...for almost 2 weeks.
Always made my wonder about the long term a/effect of something like that on horses. Maybe some of the ills we see with horses are caused by us putting these products on them?
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 3:13 pm:
I too have read reports that onion and garlic are toxic to horses and dogs.
For a time, I used to use feed garlic to my horses but decided that the risks and expense outweighed the possible benefits (personal opinion).
Here is an ancient fly spray recipe that I found in Equus Caballus:
Make Your Own Organic Fly Spray
If You Don't Mind Them Smelling Like a Salad, There is a Non-Chemical Answer to Pest Control
by Terry Temple, Editor EC
In the early 18th century, the era of the Bubonic Plaque was one of the most devastating times in human history. There is a legend that remains about four miserable grave robbers who roamed the countryside looting the dead and dying, seemingly immune to the disease. When they were finally caught, they got away without punishment in exchange for the recipe of the “magic potion” that created their immunity. The concoction was called the Four Thieves Vinegar — and to this day, horse people use it to ward flies and all insects off their equines, as well as an astringent for summer sores, etc.
Here's a recipe for the Four Thieves Vinegar*
2 tablespoons crushed or powdered Lavender
2 tablespoons dried Rosemary or two large sprigs
2 tablespoons dried Peppermint
2 tablespoons crushed or powdered Wormwood
2 tablespoons crushed or powdered Sage
2 quarts of apple cider vinegar
2 tablespoons fresh, chopped garlic
Directions
Combine the herbs and vinegar in a sealed glass jar, and steep in a cool, dark place for two weeks or so, shaking daily.
Strain the herbs through a coffee filter over a sieve, and add the garlic. Let it soak for three more days, then strain again and discard the garlic. Use topically and as an spray to ward off bugs of all kinds, from mosquitoes to viruses.
*Herbs are available in bulk at a reasonable price from www.bulkherbstore.com/VFT
I have not made this and one of my horses is allergic to "Skin So Soft" and Citronella so I don't use much else in the way of natural remedies.
Dawn makes my skin peel off.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 6:56 pm:
Vicki,
Did you know that some people use dish detergent as a cool blister( counter irritant) and if it is not rinsed off completely, it can cause irritation for your horses and yourself? I find this to be true with just about any type of soap product.
Angie,
Here is a more complete breakdown of the cost per horse per day as per label directions.
As far as cost, I just figured it out at 21 cents a serving. A 5 lb jar lasts 3 1/2 months for one horse. I wonder how much everyone pays for the ingredients in their home-made fly spray ( or store-bought)and if the price is comparable to the garlic.
5 lbs X 16=80 oz, ea serving is 3/4 of an ounce. 80 oz divided by 3/4= 107 servings approx. 107 servings divided by 31 days/month=3 1/2 months approx. $22.50 per jar divided by 107 servings= $0.21 per day.
After 2 1/2 years on this dosage, I see no toxic effect in performance, blood results or body condition.
Since the garlic for me is a year round feed additive, I think it does protect my horses from illnesses ( natural immune properties).
Like they say too each his own and for me the garlic makes my life and my horses lives much easier.
Rachelle
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 8:49 pm:
The mildest liquid soap is probably more potent than the strongest bar soap.
I too was convinced the garlic was great for my boys but one of them did eventually develop an unexplained lethargy, which I thought was burn out from an active show season, but he also developed anemia for unknown reasons.
Fortunately he recovered with treatment and I can't say for certain what caused that.
There is also supposed to be a chance of bad bacteria flourishing in the gut due to garlic.
Each animal probably has a different threshold for when good things become toxic.
I believe that such natural products can sometimes address a lack within an animal for something, but overtime can build up to levels that are unsafe.
I have read that garlic is high in selenium and sulphur (there is the bug protection factor).
One of the best things that I did was to get my horses off a wonderful-sounding supplement that contained Diatomaceous Earth, which was causing me to have profound respiratory difficulties through opening the container and administering the ration into each horse's feed dish.
I like the idea of natural products while recognizing that they can sometimes be every bit as (or more) toxic than other compounds.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 6:23 am:
Vicki,
Are you going to try the Four Thieves Vinegar mixture? Think I might give it a whirl - but how to find wormwood?
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 7:32 am:
Vicki,
Over the winter my mare exhibited some of the same signs as your boy. Very lethargic, did not look good, was racing terrible, not finishing her miles, etc.. Her bloodwork was within the normal ranges. I kept trying to figure her out.
After trying to think about what changed, I determined it was the change in her environment ( we were forced to move to a different farm) and the amount of work she was getting ( too many miles on a different surfaced track) and what I think was an incidious systemic long term infection caused by residual difficulties from an accident she suffered in October.
Once the above was rectified, this mare completely turned around. as you said each horse is different, she continued to get her garlic and IMHO, I think it actually helped her bounce back from her problems.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 8:48 am:
Rachelle,
Thanks for figuring the cost. I would have to say that homemade with essential oils is the cheapest I've found.
With all the talk of dish soap being so hard on skin, I think I'll try a few batches with maybe oil, or glycerin instead. I do think the soap just makes the spray last on the coat longer, but I also wonder if it burns like on raw bug bites?
We also need to keep in mind that any one substance can have a negative reaction if in contact with another substance.
I have in my arsenal of bug sprays: Deet, cans of people bug spray bought on clearance last fall, horse bug spray, assorted people "lotions", wipes, roll ons, and Raid Flying bug spray.
I do NOT mix any of them on any horse in one day. I do spray the stalls as needed, before the horses come in.
I am also careful to not have any thing on their faces if I am going to use masks as I find they get irritated eyes then.
I need to order essential oils, and if I see those bug bands locally, might try them on the bridles, sounds cheaper than the quiet ride fly mask.
Elizabeth,
Thanks for the tip, and starting a good discussion here.
May the bugs be gone in your area.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 11:31 am:
LL,
I'm pretty happy with using prepared sprays but posted the recipe because it looked a bit different and interesting, and I don't think that it has any ingredients that are known allergens with my boys. If I try it I will post the results, and hope that others will do likewise.
Here is a place that sells some wormwood products:
https://www.pennherb.com/cgi-bin/herbstore.cgi/scan/ml=10/ms=2/st=glimpse/co=yes/ sf=type/se=Herbs/sf=shdesc/se=wormwood
They do sell the powder in different sizes.
I read that wormwood is related to ragweed and daisies, so those with allergies could possibly react to wormwood.
We've been having so much rain here that nothing has been staying on them for very long.
The majority have welts on their backs and I am trying to decide whether these are from bites or Rain Rot or both. Some of the welts are now shedding a small scab along with some hair stuck to it, so I'm thinking Rain Rot.
Lance, who tries to avoid being out in the rain when possible, is the only one without a back full of welts.
Ticks are not a problem yet on my farm because the grass hasn't grown very long and I haven't picked any up when out on trail rides either by following my regular program, though fellow riders have been picking up a few, both on their horses and themselves.
A friend of mine was hospitalized due to Ehrlichia from a tick bite a few years ago.
Rachelle, if you feel the garlic is of benefit to your horses I am all for that. I do some things with my horses that others would question for efficacy, including a week per month of psyllium because I feel it has worked for me on my sandhill environment.
I also supply 3 types of free choice minerals in addition to coarse, loose salt free of additives and my feed has probiotics in it.
Many things factor into what is worthwhile or not, based partly on the individual horse, and also issues relating to where they are kept and what else is present in their diet and environment, in my opinion.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 12:14 pm:
Great discussion,
Vicky what purpose would Diatomaceous Earth serve?
This is what I use around my plants to kill slugs!
It is coarsly ground fossilized remains of diatoms/some kind of hard shelled sea critter.
Great recipe, thank you.
Good tip Lee.
My prevention mag is still in the wrapper, it may have to wait until it snows again.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 1:56 pm:
Some believe that it kills internal parasites though I don't believe that this can be substantiated since the internal environment is a wet one.
Also, it contains about 15 trace minerals.
It does find its way into a variety of supplements for one reason or another, and the purity and quality varies.
The supplement that I used that contained it was very, very fine and any accidental inhalation (it would poof upward when the cover was removed or when measuring it) of it caused difficulty for me, which was something that it took me a while to figure out.
Here is something that tells about food grade DE:
https://www.gardenharvestsupply.com/product/diatomaceous-earth-food-grade
Maybe DE does have some worthy applications but since such supplements are largely unregulated extra caution needs to be exercised to ensure it comes from an uncontaminated source.
As a routine matter, I don't like the idea of wetting things when I feed my horses but that which is very fine and can be inhaled probably ought not be added to feed rations without having moisture added to it.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 6:04 pm:
I have had several clients attempt to use DE over the years for intestinal parasite use and their horse's egg counts grew.
We know garlic is toxic the question is what is an acceptable dose. The test for garlic toxicity is simple: a stained blood smear looking for heinz bodies, basically darker stained spots which are coagulated hemoglobin. But the chief danger of garlic use for most is lack of effectiveness exposing horses to tick and biting insects when you think they may be protected.
DrO
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, May 25, 2009 - 4:14 pm:
I bought Repel, Sportsmen Max insect repellent today at Menards. The can says 40% Deet. States this wonder stuff will "repel mosquitoes, ticks, gnats, biting flies, chiggers, and fleas". It was $3.75 for 6.5 oz of spray in a can. I thought it was manufactured by the OFF folks, but it isn't. The advertisement colors on the can looked similar to the Deep Woods Off stuff.
Husband uses "Ben's 100 Max Formula Tick Insect Repellant." It is 98.11% Deet. 1.25 fl oz for a "few bucks"--Husband couldn't remember how much, so I'm assuming a few bucks is under ten? Suppose a person could mix it...He says the stuff works on any exposed skin he has while hunting in the deep woods in NW Alberta, Canada. Repels black flies, mosquitoes, etc. He lived primitively 30 days up there last fall and nary a bite.
I haven't read about the toxicity of Deet. I'm off to Google that...
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