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  Discussion on Hoof Critique
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Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 8:13 pm:

Hi since I have Hank barefoot, thought I'd post a few pics. Some of you know the history of this poor guy. He foundered 2 years ago, with 8 degree rotation in fronts(both) he has been blessed with thin soles since he hit the ground it seems. I've had poor farrier work ect, ect.

He is due to be re-shod in a week so he is 5 weeks post trim. Has been amazingly sound with shoes. Good in pasture barefoot, but not for ridden work.

I think my farrier has been thinking I don't like him anymore since I don't try to tell him what to do anymore

Please feel free to comment...do you think he still has a toe flare OR is it the way the farrier is dubbing (UGGH) the toe back?

Overall his hooves look 100% better than 2 years ago, if you would like to see them for comparison..I have thousands!

Here they are as you know I CAN NOT take good hoof pics...I tried!





Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 12:15 pm:

Diane,

His feet do look better from what they looked like before, but he still has a dish to his foot that is contributing to the look of the flare.

What do his feet look like from the bottom? If the measurement from the widest part of the horses foot to his toe is longer then the measurement from the widest part to the heel then they are not right and more than likely you will be having issues with a stretched white line.

I also think that since your farrier knows you will be putting shoes back on him in a week or so, he probably did not do a true barefoot trim because in order to put the shoes back on him, his outside wall needs to be level and not beveled.

I am not sure if you have ever tried Hoof Armor, but I had quite a bit of luck with this product on a horse that I wanted to go barefoot with that had very flat thin walled feet. It put a layer (several light layers)of material on the sole and around the outside edge of the foot. The trick was in the application of several light layers over a period of time.

I was able to keep this mare barefoot, and jog and train her and get her feet healthy at the same time. I always seemed to have a problem once I started putting shoes on her, IMO because putting the shoes on her changed the way her foot was trimmed to prepare for the shoes.

I think you are seeing something similar with Hank and may need to do something else to keep his feet healthy.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 1:19 pm:

Thanks Rachelle, the farrier just pulled his shoes...no trim. He was last trimmed 5 weeks ago.

I can't bring myself to leave him barefoot, we've tried for years and all it leads to is I can't work him and he gets fatter.

He does still have a stretched WL. I don't know why we can't get that under control, other than it appears he may have WLD. Working on that!

Overall his hooves have come a long ways With a ways to go.

Oct. 2007 6 mos after founder.

Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 2:50 pm:

Diane,

How much do you need to work him and on what type of ground are you working him on? If it is in your arena, is that surface hard or soft?

As far as your farrier is concerned, this guy would not last 10 minutes in my barn. If he made the trip out to pull Hanks shoes and knowing the problems that Hanks has with his feet, he should have taken the time to either fix the original shoe problem ( reset that sprung front shoe) or at the very least trimmed him properly, even if he is coming back in a week or so. It would have taken him a few minutes to do the job properly and Hank would have been much happier.

All, I know is I hope he did not charge you for the work he did (or didn't do).

I know, I am in quite a different situation than you are, but I have had several situations where I needed my farrier and or my trimmer to come out several days in a row to fix something on different horses, they both showed up cheerfully, did all the required work and did not charge me for fixing the problems.

Secondary comment on the first set of pictures: Perhaps, Hanks feet need to be done more frequently ( reset between new shoes), his toes look too long and that may be contributing to his stretched white line and the continuing flare. For the flare to be kept under control the toe needs to be backed up more. On Hank, you can see where the hoof from the coronary band down about 1 1/2 inches is tight and then the hoof starts to flare out, it is at this point where the hoof wall is becoming separated, what you see when you pick up his feet and look at the white line on the bottom is the gradual spreading out of this separation. If he were trimmed more frequently, the flare would not have as much time to develop and his white line would get tighter, you might eventually get to the point where you could increase the trimming intervals.

That's another problem with putting shoes on, they do not let a horse wear his feet normally and they require more maintenance rather than less to keep angles and toe length in the proper proportion for the horse.

My horses when barefoot can go 6 weeks, my horses in shoes, I am lucky to get at most 3 1/2 weeks before their toes get too long and they start interfering. This might even be the cause of Hanks sprung shoe ( although it could have happened for a variety of reasons). A longer toe makes it harder for him to breakover, slowing down his action and causing the front foot to be in the way when his back foot moves forward ( forging).

Anyway enough from me now, I think I've said enough.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 3:16 pm:

Rachelle, I can't stick up for the farrier, I am not 100% pleased with his work. There are NO other farriers in this area. He did not charge me for coming out Sat., he had a busy schedule and couldn't fit Hank in other than to pull the shoes, which I was very grateful for

Remember I live in the "sticks" and farrier/vets are far and few in between.

He does not forge or over reach. The footing in the arena is semi-soft. I just do not want to risk bruising, we've taken that journey and it wasn't fun

Actually Hank is doing very well barefoot at the moment I guess I could take him down to the arena and see how he moves on the lunge line. In a way I would like to keep him barefoot for awhile so I can treat that WLD if nothing else.

I love how people get so passionate about hooves I don't take offense at all.

I have learned a lot here, too bad I can't get it implemented! I do believe Hank is just one of those horses that needs shoes, he always has to be ridden or worked, so can't blame this farrier for that. I do wish he could get that WL tightened up tho.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 4:24 pm:

Rachelle, thanks for making me think about this I went down and lunged Hank in the arena. He actually looked pretty good so we played at liberty. He definetley wasn't as willing to run off...that could be my good training tho.

On the circle at walk, trot he looked good

The canter I'm not sure. he wasn't real enthusiastic about cantering, which is strange, but he's been rather quiet and subdued all day. His backend also didn't look as good but he didn't swap leads as he had been doing before the shoes...

Today is his 12th birthday might be old age!

He was very good at Liberty..jumped the jumps with enthusiasm, was very attentive to me today. MAYBE he can stay barefoot for awhile. HMMMMM
He is landing slightly heel first most of the time.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 4:59 pm:

Diane,

Can you turn Hank out for a few hours a day in the arena? Here's why I am asking.

One of the things I learned when doing my research on barefoot horses is that their feet get conditioned ( or tougher) according to the environment that he/she lives and works in. If you want Hank to work barefoot in the arena then his feet must be conditioned for it. I don't know how much you ride/work him, but if he spends more time out in the field (Environment 1), spends sometime in his dry lot ( Environment 2) and spends very little time in the arena ( Environment 3)then it makes perfect sense to me why he is sounder out in the field and has problems in the arena without shoes, his feet are just not conditioned enough for that particular area or is worked too much before his feet are properly conditioned for that environment.

It took me months to get my mare's feet to the point where she could deal with any type of surface, barefoot. It took two weeks for the people I sold her to to mess her up, both physically and mentally,mostly by screwing around with her feet. I am now trying to get her back so I can fix her again.

I know you have hoed a long road with Hank and you know him best, but in the long run aren't his feet healthier without the shoes, just look at what you went through over the past few months since you put the shoes on.

Just my thoughts
Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 5:50 pm:

Thanks Rachelle, I really can't turn him out in the arena, but his paddock is the same stuff...but harder! He spends quite a bit of the day on that.

I am not real sure about barefoot, he definitely seems more comfortable and moves a little freer with shoes. I have until Thurs. to make up my mind.

Of course it is suppose to rain the next 2 days! If he seems to stay the way he is and I don't start detecting any DP's (he's not had these since shoes have been on) it might be worth a try. I always can put the shoes on if he seems to start getting sore.

Did you ever try the Riders Rasp? I bet I could keep his flares back with that.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 6:44 pm:

Diane,

I haven't tried the riders rasp yet because right now I am down to one racehorse wearing shoes. But my yearling will be in sometime this week and after my trimmer does him for a few trims. I will be dealing with him and will be using it then.

I know you must have mentioned it somewhere, but I looked at your profile and your location does not show up. I wanted to see if I could find an HPT trimmer in your area that might be able to come out and give you an evaluation of Hanks feet.
Rachelle
New Member:
npo33901

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 11:29 am:

Diane, if I may but in. I agree completely with Rachelle's opinion, I myself have two barefoot horses, working them on very course sand/small stones , and riding out on stone hard dry roads . One of my Lucitanos had extremly bad hoofs - irons falling off , thin wall e.t.c. Took some time to harden his hoofs - but now he is fantastic . Please try to get some books - Dr.Hiltrud Strasse, Shoeing an unnecessary evil . And Jamie Jacson (cannot remember title). Good luck, Anna-Marie.
Member:
shanson

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 12:02 pm:

Hi Diane,

You've spent a lot of time and effort on Hank's feet and you know him best. Trust your instincts...if you've found with experience that he needs shoes to be ridden, have him shod. Some horses do fine under saddle barefoot and some need shoes.

BTW, to me his feet don't look too bad, considering he's at 5 weeks and due for farrier work.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 4:31 pm:

Thanks I didn't think they looked horrible either He is a bit long.

I guess he will be staying barefoot, at least until I get his WL cleaned up. He has NEVER lost a shoe.

Hank just has a lot going on with his hooves and I don't think he will ever be capable of barefoot when ridden on rocks or anything hard for any amount of time. I have come to accept that, and he is much sounder for it. Seems when he comes out of his shoes in the fall his hooves are much better and he tolerates the hard ground better, maybe those thin soles just need a break once in awhile

Once I get his WL cleaned up we'll see where we stand, but he really needs to be worked so he don't get obese and founder again!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 9:16 pm:

These are good boots and those using them are winning endurance races in the worst of conditions:
https://www.renegadehoofboots.com/
And they are made in the U.S.A.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 9:58 pm:

Vicki got to admit they a cute I don't think Hank has the correct hoof form for them tho.

A little off topic ( I know hard to believe), but since Hank is going to stay barefoot so I can treat his White Line problem I do want to keep the flare back between farrier visits. I have tried rasping and really can't get the hang of it.

I like to keep things simple and easy or I just won't do it.

There is the riders rasp

https://www.ridersrasp.com/

And this thing hoof gurus what do you think would be best to keep the flare back and the easiest?

https://www.bigdweb.com/detail.aspx?id=8023

With the riders rasp it appears I wouldn't need a hoof stand and seems to be dummy proof
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 10:25 pm:

Diane, I have a rider's rasp, and use it regularly. I don't have a farrier, Hairball's feet are done by a barefoot specialist. I showed him the rider's rasp, and he liked it. He suggested that I do each foot every 5 or 6 days, and that there was no need to do them all on the same day. I find that if I attend to one or two feet at a time, and make sure to get all feet rasped each 5 or 6 days, that it helps a lot. The rasp doesn't take a lot off at once, so I don't worry about over doing it.

Vicki, one of my buddies has those Renagade boots. She loves them, and her horse travels well in them too. The boots seem to make his hoofbeats louder, which has a tendency to fire old Hairball up a little when we ride together. It may have to do with the way she's fitted them though. Have you ever noticed that these boots are noisy?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jun 1, 2009 - 10:34 pm:

Susie do you think the riders rasp has enough ooomph to it to keep flares back and/or remove them? Is it easy to use?

The farrier leaves more flare on then I like. I would love to be able to "clean up" a bit after him! without having to worry about going too far.

I see they now have medium coarse files for it also.

Are you happy with it??

THANKS
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 10:40 am:

I think that the rasp is probably better for keeping the hoof in shape than for removing flair. They describe it as a rounding tool instead of a trimming too.

I like what Hairball's hoof specialist does for his feet. I use the rider's rasp to maintain them between his visits. Hairball's 18 years old and his feet are really happy with the barefoot treatment. He had contracted heels when I got him and they are getting better and better.

Looking at the pictures, it is clear that Hank's feet are greatly improved from a couple of years ago. It could have gone the other direction, and it looks like your attention and vigilance paid off. It's a good thing that you do "worry too much." I get the impression that you get frustrated with the farrier and that he has trouble collaborating with you.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 2:09 pm:

Thanks Suzy, the farrier I have is a good guy, he does lack in the skills dept. I have just given up trying to tell him what I would like done, not that he won't, I don't think he can

Hoof care around these parts isn't that important, most people put shoes on for the riding season, pull them in the fall and the horse doesn't see a farrier again until next riding season. So the demand for good farriers is nil.

I might try both these rasps, the travel rasp looks like it could be a handy little thing to have around.

Thanks Again!
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 9:32 pm:

I just realized that you aren't needing to shoe year round. I think that around here, many of the problems we see are because the horse never gets a break. Also, barefoot horses are active most of the year, and the footing stays the same too.

You have different kind of challenge with the season changes, and the ways that affects the ground the horse walks on. I'd like to hear what you think of the travel rasp if you end up getting one.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 2, 2009 - 10:41 pm:

Yes we deal with frozen ground, mud ice, soft, hard...you name it Hank struggles most with frozen irregular ground. This year he actually handled it better than he has in quite a few years. I always leave him barefoot in the winter mos. Oct-Mayish so he is barefoot at least 7 mos. out of the year.

I ordered both those rasps, the farrier is coming Thurs. and I am determined to get Hanks hooves in a little better shape if I have to do it myself. His WL really needs to tighten up somehow.

I'll let you know how they work..thanks
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 7:18 pm:

Well the boy is back in shoes and seems much happier about it.

Dr.O. I would appreciate your input too on his hooves if you have the time, I really want to get these hooves "fixed" the best they can be anyway.

Thanks

Hoof pics




Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 9:22 pm:

Here's a better side shot.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 9:55 pm:

Well, I'm no expert on shoeing and the toes look better, but is doesn't look as if there's enough shoe under his heels. What I mean is it seems to me the shoe should extend a bit further back. Of course that could be why he stepped on one and "sprung" it.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 10:18 pm:

I agree Julie, it is hard to tell from my pic, The shoe does extend about 1/4 in past his heel. That's about as far as we dare go. I don't want him springing a shoe again or getting it stuck on something. He's in a size one and we looked at a size 2 and it was just going to be too big...he needs a 1 1/2

I think as the toe goes back next shoeing size 1 will be perfect. The farrier actually seemed different today and put forth more of an effort to get his hoof in better shape...maybe because I started giving my opinion again
I had kind of given up, but I must not do that...it just gets overwhelming sometimes. Good thing I have you guys helping me, because I know enough to be dangerous and that's about it, even though I have read for DAYS and DAYS about hooves, I do get confused sometimes

Thanks
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 10:29 pm:

Oh and the vet said it was important to get his breakover back to get the stress off the WL at the toe...I am well aware of that, BUT I am not sure how to tell if his breakover is ok for sure.

Can you tell from the pics?
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Jun 4, 2009 - 11:21 pm:

I think from the pictures the breakover looks better than in the past. He still has a bit of a dish to the profile, so when that's gone it'll be easier to judge.
Member:
shanson

Posted on Friday, Jun 5, 2009 - 9:38 am:

I'm no expert either, but have learned a fair amount here & at horseshoes.com/forums. Seems like the breakover is still a little too far forward. Heels are running forward some. Shoe looks too small but may be mistaken as he's shoeing to a foot that's running forward...probably incorrect language here but hope I'm making sense.

Sounds like your vet agrees though. He's asking for the same thing. I haven't dealt with founder & rotation though so don't know how much that affects where breakover should be.

I don't think it's super bad though and if Hank is more comfortable, you're doing OK. You have a farrier who's trying for you and sounds like in your area top-notch farriers are unavailable. So, just keep working with him to correct the feet & don't worry so much about it. You're doing your best under the circumstances! :-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 5, 2009 - 9:47 am:

That is the problem with assessing shoeing from a few images and maybe more important not having before and after pictures. What the farrier started with greatly effects the end result.

Your best bet is to read the article that describes the properly shod foot see how what your farrier is doing then question the farrier when he deviates from the recommendations.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jun 5, 2009 - 9:35 pm:

My "natural farrier" says that extending the shoe back past the heel actually puts more pressure on the heel rather than relieving pressure, which if you think about it, makes some sense.

This is something that he is adamant about.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jun 5, 2009 - 9:57 pm:

Vicki, I could see if your horse had a nice hoof form the shoe probably doesn't need to extend back.

A horse with run under heels such as Hank I believe needs the extra support behind, because their heels aren't "where the belong" It is also suppose to encourage the heel to grow more correctly.

Actually Hank moves better with a little support back there, he has under run heels tho.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jul 16, 2009 - 8:11 pm:

Ok guys help me out here, Hank was trimmed today and is barefoot for the time being. He seems pretty good barefoot this time Didn't walk off a little "short" as usual!

I think his hoof has improved, but I am one of those wishful thinkers. Considering I take terrible hoof pics these turned out pretty good!

Pics of hooves






Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Jul 16, 2009 - 9:08 pm:

Diane,

From what I've gathered from PR's DVDs, the heel needs move beveling. Maybe all the way around? It's something I've had a hard time grasping, and pictures don't tell the whole story of course.

If I can find a picture, I'll put it in on here.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Jul 16, 2009 - 9:13 pm:

Diane,

Definitely looking better. The dish appears to be leaving. The only thing I don't like is that from the last picture( hoof from the bottom) it appears that there is way more of the hoof in front of the widest part ( side to sie) than there is in the back by the frog, but this may be an illusion from the angle the picture was taken.

Can you get some shots of his back feet and a picture of him standing square with all four feet in the picture.

Also I am curious about whether or not his swollen fetlock goes back to normal after his trim. I have had horses with the worst looking legs go right back to normal when their feet were properly balanced and their angles were right.

Since I took the shoes off my mare at the beginning of the month her feet and her legs look great and she is normally the one that needs bandages to go outside with because she's such a clutz. I am beginning to think that all those lumps and bumps were being caused by the shoes when she rolled. Now that she's barefoot there's nothing to cut up her legs.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jul 16, 2009 - 9:40 pm:

Thanks, Angie I would like to see a pic of a good bevel. He always busts his quarters out about 2 weeks before the farrier is due..he is done every 5-6 weeks. I think the riders rasp will help me out with that.

Rachelle, I wonder about his fetlock too, his back hooves were really a mess this time, I should have stayed on top of them, but didn't!

I will see if I can get the pics you describe. I was really quite enthused about how much better his WL looked. It hasn't looked that good since his 1st founder, yes he foundered twice. The first time there wasn't much rotation.

It appears as if that long under run heel is finally improving too

Here is a couple other sole shots I took, his foot looks kind of crooked in the first one, but I think that is the angle I took it at. It is the same sole as in the pic above.

Hoof pics are SOOOO hard for me!


Member:
shanson

Posted on Thursday, Jul 16, 2009 - 9:46 pm:

That last photo... Hard to tell for sure, but looks like the heels aren't balanced. The heel on the side opposite your hand appears to be much taller than the other heel?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jul 16, 2009 - 10:11 pm:

Sharon it does appear that way, I thought the same thing! I thought there was a way to rotate pics somehow in picasso and there is!!

Here is the same sole shot rotated....it doesn't look higher now, actually I think it may be lower. The farrier dug the black gunk out of his quarters and we medicated them.

I will try REALLY hard tomorrow to get better pics while he is barefoot I would like to try to get them in a little better form, and get rid of the thrush/WLD..it was much improved this time.

Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jul 16, 2009 - 11:55 pm:

Want to see something ugly.

I was looking at Hanks progress in my pics...
Look at this sole pic from May 2007...shortly after he foundered WOW I forgot how horrible they looked!
You can barely tell where his frog is. I guess we have come a long way



Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 8:01 am:

Hanks DP is back this morning, it is mild BUT definitely there. Would that be expected, considering the problem hooves he has?

I was very happy about not feeling them anymore.. I don't think I buy into the circulation returning theory. He is on 1gram bute twice daily for his fetlock, so I wonder how bad it really is. He seems to be walking OK, but his enthusiasm is gone..he walked slowly to his hay. Usually he blasts past Sam to get there first....not today
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 8:05 am:

Diane,

I kept looking at these pictures and kept thinking that something looked wrong and I finally figured it out and it may be the reason why Hank is always having a problem in his quarters. Your farrier is not relieving his quarters. There should be a natural curve in that area of the foot. I do not see this in any of Hanks hoof pics on this thread. I'll try and find a picture of what I mean. I will also try and find the youtube video of a horse being trimmed and how this was accomplished with that trim.I just watched this video the other night, so I know its out there.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 8:39 am:

Diane,

This photo is blurry, sorry. My hoof gal helper was trying to show me how to bevel the heels more. I don't see that being done on Hank. And beveled more all the way around, plus scoop out the quarters like Rachelle is saying.

Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 9:15 am:

Diane, my old guy Buddy used to have a lot of heel pain and was not sound when his heels were underrun.

The farrier who finally fixed this and made him better than ever very gradually took those underrun heels down.

He was improved after the first trim until becoming completely sound.

I am the last person who will claim to be an expert and hope that I'm not climbing out onto a long branch here, but it appears in the photos to me that the hairline indicates a high heel angle even though the heels are underrun and I think that is what happens when heels need to be reduced a bit, they underrun if not relieved.

The photo of when Hank's feet were really bad looks kind of like what my current farrier started with before we got Buddy fixed. I wish that I had before and after photos.

My farrier also cautioned me about using this new Rider's Rasp as he said it would be much easier to mess up a foot with that (or injure oneself) than with a plain file. This surprised me, because it looks like it would be easy to use. Maybe he said this partly because he knows how clutzy and weak I am trying to touch up feet, but he does approve very much of me using a file to take a bit of toe during the course of time before his next visit, especially with Lance whose way of going is greatly enhanced by just a little, tiny bit of fine-tuning.

Good luck, Diane. It is so frustrating trying to get things fixed correctly. It took over 14 years for me to finally get Buddy the way he should be and he has been thanking me ever since. The contrast in attitude and way of going is absolutely amazing. I never would have believed it possible had I not witnessed the progression.
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 9:46 am:

Hi Diane,
Do you think that the bute could be bothering Hank's stomach? That could change his attitude about eating.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 4:53 pm:

Angie your "guru" takes worse pics than me I do get the jest of it tho..thanks.

May I ask what is the point of "relieving" the quarters? I have seen it and read about it, but don't quite get it. I would think the more "hoof" on the ground the better. The farrier does leave
his walls too long in the quarters I do agree.

Vicki, I don't see how you could do any harm with the Riders Rasp, it is virtually impossible to hurt yourself...well nothing is impossible I guessespecially where horses are involved! This farrier has been working on Hank for about 2 years. He has made a lot of progress. Overall he does a decent job considering what he has to work with AND started with.

Susie Hanks appetite isn't lacking at all! Just slower getting to it.

HOWEVER today when I got home the DP's were gone, and he was QUITE spunky. It feels like fall is in the air...in the 50's and a stiff N wind. The old mare was running, bucking, snorting,sidepassing,piaffing, rearing... Sigh

I'm not crawling under ANY horse to take pics today! It is also spitting rain, and cloudy so I am sure they wouldn't turn out well.

Thanks for the help, before I start rasping I want to make sure I don't make anything worse. His toe can not come back any further. The farrier took him right to the ...not stretched WL


I do believe his heels need something done to them tho and it may be as simple as beveling...if I can figure out how to do it....guess I'll be reading by the fireplace tonight
Beveling 101

I will try REALLy hard to get good pics tomorrow...seems the harder I try the worse they are tho...so no guarantees!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 6:21 pm:

Diane,

If you do a search on youtube for barefoot trimming. There are two videos. Barefoot trimming part 1 and Barefoot trimming part 2.

You can see how this lady does her beveling and you can also see how she relieves the quarters.

Also, I used the riders rasp on both my horses and I think it works really well on the heels. But after watching these videos I think I am going to get myself a rasp and learn to do this myself. under the watchful eye of my trimmer.

Meanwhile, my mare is going to train again tomorrow, barefoot after my trim today and we will see how that goes.

Rachelle
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 6:40 pm:

Diane,

I am not sure if you are interested but I found 2 DAEP trimmers in Woodstock, Il. I do not know how close to you they are. I know some of these trimmers travel quite a ways to get to their clients and these might be interested even if it is only to do an evaluation. I can ask my trimmer if he knows either of them and if he would recommend them.

Also here is the website www.equinepodiatry.net in case you are interested in the HPT trim. The guy that started this has a lot of good articles and a wealth of information and he is a farrier and a PhD.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 7:09 pm:

Diane,

My hoof guru normally takes great pics for me, she was dealing iwht her daughter, and her grand daughter that day for helpers! It was one of those days!

Boy, I wish you'd get a chance to work with someone who really understands this barefoot trimming. Or watch those DVD's PR or anyone puts out. Or the YouTube vids might help.

Anything too long, shoves things up higher in the horses hoof; bars, quarters, toes, all can cause pain.

The hoof expands on contact with the ground, the sole, frog, & bars all come in contact with the ground. The frog having contact is very important, as is heel first landing. Something about beveling the heel helps with the whole circulation process.

I've been guilty of beveling the toe, but not so much the qtrs and heels. When it was explained to me WHY, it makes sense, but I cannot explain it well enough I am afraid.

And it may vary on each horse...each hoof!

When I took Tango back at his toes, he was sore. He does not have enough heigth at his toe, nor enough sole at his frog apex.

The short version of this is bevel walls, even heels. Quarters a tad lower than the rest, yet still above the sole! Bevel a flare at a steeper angle.

Off to look at videos.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 7:34 pm:

Good videos, thehappyhoof gal does a good job. Although I start my bevel from the bottom, I think she is correct in saying leave the outer wall alone. My walls got too thin at the quarters, it's a constant balancing act, and learning how to read the hoof takes alot of study.

SHe didn't say as much about the heel bevel though.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 7:50 pm:

I REALLY have to try to get some good pics. I went to dig out Hanks WL to treat it, I was SO IMPRESSED, the thrush and WLD seems to be gone, we are down to nice HEALTHY WL. This is a FIRST in many years!!!!!!!! Before he was shod the last 2 times we put sav-a-hoof gel on his WL. It has cepharin(sp) same as tomorrow cow stuff, and some other stuff in it. I think it may have worked!

I think his hoof overall looks really good, this is the biggest improvement he's had.

Bad news DP is back a little stronger tonight. Good news is he is willing to move faster. He does not look lame OR short. I do believe the soft/thin soles may be the problem.

I will read up tonight, and try hard to get some good pics tomorrow. His fetlock looks about the same

Tomorrow is the day I give his gut a rest from bute, then I will see how he really is.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 8:07 pm:

I hear you, Diane, but in my experience with trying to get feet right, two years is only the blink of an eye.

I can't believe how long it took me to accomplish this for my horses but I did the best that I could given what I had to work with.

The traditional training concepts that farriers have goes back to Civil War times and it is incredibly hard to find anyone with actual intensive podiatry training, which is what I have been finally fortune enough to do.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 9:36 pm:

Dr.O I would appreciate any input you may have too...unless my pics are too bad! Here's a couple more pics I took yesterday. After reading a few things I don't think Hanks hoof looks bad at all It looks like the farrier did a small bevel. His hoof seems to be "under" him.?

Remember too he has had 1 bad founder 2 yrs. ago too. When i picked up his hoof tonight I could see the dirt mark where his breakover is and it looked like it was where it should be HMMMM.
Maybe I shouldn't read anymore
I get too confused. From what I read here, and on other sites his hoof doesn't look too bad...does it?
Pics



I am VERY proud too say after 5 yrs. I finally learned how to draw on the pictures

When I was taking this pic he moved his hoof, but I think maybe you can see where the quarters are relieved a bit..I put a circle around it! OH this is going to be fun...if I can remember how I did it!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jul 17, 2009 - 9:58 pm:

Rachelle I'm sorry I forgot to say thanks for looking up trimmers. Woodstock is clear across the state from me! I am basically happy with my farrier, if I can maintain Hank when he is barefoot that would be great, but I don't have any desire what so ever to learn how to trim horses myself. I'm lucky to get them brushed once a week! Might be something to that tho they are VERY shiny

Mud on his butt(still there)...but shiny

Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 8:22 am:

Poor Hank he is VERY sore today Pulses are raging..no heat. Doesn't want to move much. I know my mistake, last time we pulled his shoes successfully we didn't trim him until 2 weeks later. I put old macs on him with no improvement, I don't have pads for them tho. Soon as he finishes eating I will try the quick wraps with pads and see if that is better. I hope this doesn't roll into founder.

If there is no improvement by Mon. I'm calling farrier to put shoes back on! He WAS doing soooo good. No pasture for him until the pulses go away, my experimental pasture will get to keep growing.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 9:19 am:

Diane,

I hope you keep reading and watching videos. I also hope you don't put shoes back on. The shoes or lack of, is not causing/stopping the pounding DP!!

The best thing I would do for Hank if he was my horse; keep studying EVERYTHING about barefoot hoof care, and managment of at risk for founder horses. Don't matter if you will ever trim yourself or not.

The while doing that, I would give Bute, limit pasture, and LEAVE the hoofs ALONE for a bit. You CANNOT Micromanage his hoofs if you do not understand the HOW & WHY!

As Vicki says: Two years is a blink of an eye in hoof changes.

IF you want Hank to be as sound and painfree as possible, you must be patient, keep him comfortable, and let time, and barefoot hoofs, be your friend. Boots, not shoes, if you need something.

I am not trying to chew you out here!! I am giving myself a stern reminder that "Less is More" and changes take time.

So back away from the rasp, back away from the phone to call the farrier, the vet, and take a deep breath.

I am speaking from 2 1/2 years of being a "do it myselfer" and many gallons of tears, bloody knuckles, and sore backs. I have piles of print outs, and I've watched hours of videos. Don't have perfect hoofs; still fixing my goofs.

I've had extreme guilt over doing things wrong, and learning to let things go, emotionally and hoof growth wise, is tough. I want a perfect mustang looking hoof right now! But it don't work that way! Change one thing, something else changes too.

If like me, you plan on having horses until you can't crawl up on one, you owe it to them to understand this inside out.

Which I don't, but it gets better all the time.

BTW, if I check pulses, it drives me crazy! Some feel pounding, then I think I feel heat, and then I panic! Unless a horse is obviously lame or uncomfortable, I don't worry about it. Not saying it's o.k. to have either, but I think those things happen more than we know about and as long as a person is following good management guidelines, it's another thing to not micromanage.

One last thought before I get off my hay bale:

I believe going from shoes to barefoot, and then back again, is undoing weeks/months of what you've been trying to accomplish. IMHO, leave the darn shoes off, and let the hoofs tell you what they need!

Written with concern for Hanks's health,
and,
to offer hope and peace to you!

Feel like saying "Amen"
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 9:57 am:

But he is VERY sore/lame. I have learned to "keep the pulse" in it's place as Dr.O. once said. The other 2 are walking fine and no DP's.

I am not going to touch his hooves with anything other then boots. The Old Macs did nothing for him. I just went out and put the quick fix hoof wraps with pads on and he does feel much better!

Now I know we have gone back and forth about shoes, his SOUND days are spent in shoes...our troublesome times are barefoot...to me that speaks volumes and the hoof/sole telling me it needs shoes to be comfortable.

I can put up with him being a little sore when transitioning, but he is REALLY sore, and with his history of founder I don't want to "upset that apple cart" Then he has that darn fetlock, with the sore fronts he is weighting his back more and the heat is returning! A mess for sure!

I have no doubt he is NOT foundering at this point. Due to the weather he hasn't even been on his "safe" grass that hasn't bothered him. He was fine until the shoes came off as you know from my EMS thread.

I will see how this evolves over the next few days, but I really can't see letting him suffer when shoes make him so much better.

I appreciate your help more then you know! But until you have dealt with a foundered horse with thin soles and seen all the pain and suffering they go through you will do ANYTHING to avoid that again.

I am debating letting him out in his pasture for an hour or 2. The footing is soft and he would be more prone to move around a bit. At this point I do not believe he is foundering...the walk is that of sore hooves, not founder(know that walk well unfortunately). I will try to take a video later of him walking to show you...tho I did give him a 1.5 grams of bute so don't know if that will make a difference. He did have 1 gram last night and was horrible this morning so don't know for sure.
Thanks

Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 12:10 pm:

Diane,
I know you are Hanks owner and you have dealt with a lot of problems, some of which you have found the answers to with your own experiments.I also know you do not want Hank to suffer any more than he has to or at all. But I really have to agree with Angie here.

I believe the trigger here was him getting trimmed not him being barefoot. He has been barefoot before and he has been barefoot since you pulled his shoes off a few weeks ago, the only thing that got done was the trim. Since I have personally critiqued the trim and knowing that a bad trim can do just as much damage ( and cause the symptoms you are having now). I would leave him alone and see what happens over the next few days. Don't rush to put back on the shoes because in the long run it may make things much worse.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 12:51 pm:

Rachelle he just got his shoes pulled Thurs. We'll see what happens. Too bad I can't leave the little blimp on pasture he is comfortable out there! I will give him 2 weeks IF he doesn't get worse and some improvement takes place.
Thanks
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 1:46 pm:

Diane,

I must have missed when you put the shoes back on. The last I remembered Hank had thrown a shoe and you pulled the shoes off.

So really this new episode of DP pulses makes more sense now. Hank is transitioning back to barefoot and the pulses you are feeling is the circulation going back into his foot.

The fact he has no heat is a good thing. I agree with you about pulling the shoes and not trimming right away, I think it helps the transition process. When I pulled my mares shoes at the beginning of July, we did a very conservative trim, just to get rid of some of the rough edges around the nail holes, then she was out in the field for 10 days and did nothing but walk around and stuff her face. Now she is ready for the next trim and she has been training and jogging barefoot and she has been fine. Now if I can keep hubby off my back as far as putting shoes on her, all will be well. He watched her train today and said she really looked good. She felt good too, no slipping, straight as an arrow and a lot of pace at the end of the mile. This next week of training will let me know if she will need shoes.

With her next trim, I expect to see her heels returning, her natural angles starting to come back and some more concavity in her feet.

ALso, If Hank is comfortable in the field and isn't running around or eating himself silly. Why don't you leave him there ( unless you think it would be too much because of the suspensory issue).

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 2:08 pm:

Rachelle,

Thank you for adding your observations to the discussion. I am trying so hard to grasp so much with my own horses, and I just KNOW shoes are not more than a BAD band aid for Hank, yet I don't feel qualified to explain all the reasons why.

Diane,

I do know how hard it is to see a horse suffer. Tango has been sore/lame more often than not this summer. Shoulder lameness, I let his hoofs get messed up, plus hubby breathing down my neck to put this horse in the ground because I never could safely ride him. It breaks my heart...everything about him that is a challenge..big sigh. I cannot give away an unsound, unsafe horse!

Sometimes the hardest thing to do is nothing, let nature dictate what happens. And you are doing great with the stressed grass experiment!

If Hank is sore, he will not move around much. Nature's way. As he improves, he will move more. Some Bute is good, yet that is why I think vets go with lower doses, right? Higher amounts to stop inflammation, but after 2-3 days, less Bute so they don't hurt themselves more thinking they are pain free.

Be Brave!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 2:49 pm:

Here is a few more pics, after carefully looking at them, I see the problem. He is walking on his sole at the toe...sigh.


Lateral


With leg


Hank walking on semi-hard ground with 1.5 grams of bute well into his system
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090718SoreHooves?authkey=Gv1sRgCL7-6arxstPZbQ#5359868568739915442

On the tall grass...his fronts look good but it looks like the suspensory is a little sore in RR
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090718SoreHooves?authkey=Gv1sRgCL7-6arxstPZbQ#5359868048048034690
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 3:58 pm:

Diane,

I have seen this before on one of my own horses and you are right he is walking on the toe. I couldn't see it in the other pictures, but the last one you posted ( with the leg) it appears that your farrier took off too much toe in an attempt to bevel him. He almost looks like he has a square toe.

When this happened to my mare ( caused because I took my eyes away from what the farrier was doing because he had done the other three feet correctly) I was using hoof armour at the time. We put a couple of coats of Hoof Armor on to protect it and then I had to wait for the hoof to grow out enough to finally trim correctly. At the time I was using an experienced farrier that should have known better and I lost about two weeks while waiting for the foot to grow out. Keep the boots on him to protect the toe and if you have any Tuff Stuff laying around the barn, I'd put that on the toe and around the edge of his entire foot a few times a day. Sally Hanson Hard as nails might work too. Just make sure the Tuff stuff is dry before you put the boot back on.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 4:02 pm:

Very similar to what I have going on with Tango. There is not enough toe height vertically. Must let the hoof wall grow out, yet keep the mustang roll, or beveling if you prefer, touched up.

Life is hectic here, my mini breaks are checking my email, doing quick searches for things I need to check on; but as soon as I get more of PR's DVDs watched, and review what I am doing, I'll try to help you help you Hank.

If my hoof guru wasn't so busy, I'd get her comments on Hanks hoofs. I learn that way too. I guess summer in Alaska is CRAZY busy! And probably warmer than here too, go figure! LOL!!

You can email me at fancy4j@gmail.com if you wish. We could exchange pictures of hoofs, that might help alot!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 4:07 pm:

Rachelle, Two weeks is about the time frame that Tango was ouchy too, similar circumstances. Now if I could just figure out what else is going on with him...and not be too aggressive with touch ups...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 4:42 pm:

Angie why don't you post pics of Tangos hooves on HA?
I would love to see what other peoples horses hooves look like. You might get help too, as you know there are alot of smart hoof people on here. OR you may just help someone else.

We seem to have this problem quite often. I think in the quest for a tighter WL (which is happening) the farrier takes his toe back too far...another one of those vicious circles! If he don't take the toe back and roll it enough that WL splats right out along with a dish in his front. INTERESTING...maybe Hank is finally at a threshold. His WL really looks much better and tighter, no bruising was apparent, maybe now that this WL is getting tighter, and the thrush/WLD appears to be gone we can start trimming him like a "normal" horse. The guy does a good job on my other two, they immediately felt better when he was done. Sam had been walking a little gingerly until he was trimmed, he's now back to his obnoxious self. The farrier did wonders with his hooves over the last 2 years, the other farrier had him a total,lame mess. HMMMM I think maybe that is it...we are at the tip of the iceberg finally!

Hopefully I can get him over this with no bruising. I really don't want to boot him, he gets rubs and his soles soften up. I will start putting iodine on them tonight.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 4:47 pm:

If he's sore at the toe--and it does look like too much toe was removed--he should be landing heel first. Does it look as if he is. I couldn't tell from the videos. If that's the problem, he should be remarkably more comfortable on very soft footing and noticeably more uncomfortable on hard ground. I don't think you really have a very serious issue here, but since they are on grass and he has a history of laminitis, I'd be worried too. The same heel first, walking on egg shells gait typical of founder would mimic sore at the toe.
I cannot believe on that green grass his head is ever off the ground! Mine wouldn't even come up for air.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 6:29 pm:

Julie, Yes he is landing heel first and has no desire to weight those toes. It is a "sore walk" not lamintitis walk...at this point. I bedded their lean-to up good and will feed in there tonight.

Surprisingly enough I let the horses out this morning and am just going to put them up for the night...so they had access to the pasture for about 10 hrs. I watched and timed them and they only spent 2 hrs. total grazing...weird huh! They are searching that pasture high and low for their sugar fix and are not finding it!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Jul 19, 2009 - 10:45 am:

Diane,

I don't mind my hoof pictures in discussions like these, I hesitate to post for help though because it gets mind boggling with many points of view given. Different terms used, different ways of expressing ourselves. I did start out on a yahoo group, and, believe you me, not run as good as this site! So I am sticking with my guru, and my PR DVDs for now.

Not that there isn't a wealth of knowledge here! And wonderful folks!

Some day, I will put up "before & afters" and show the changes each hoof went through, along with my mistakes. Have to wait for the end result to grow in!

Now, if I got these resized correctly, I will share my problem child with you, lol!

Chunky, sore, and unhappy Tango. In my haste to back toe up to remove flares, I took off the bottom too, and he is sore, like Hank pretty much I am thinking.



I've let the toe creep forward here for months, see the toe bump on the far one? See the waves on the wall from quarters pushing up? Struggling with understanding beveling, and heel heigth, lots of flaring going on. Big very hard hoofs to work with!



Here's what I need to learn how to do; I was missing the beveling at the heels. PR shows it's the same all the way around. It kept scaring me to do the heels. I had taken the hinds too far down on Cody, and made him sore last year. So I went the other way then, and left too much on everyone.

Bars need work too. Wish I had a picture from the side showing the sole at the toe is higher than the wall, more on his right. He stood with that foot parked out for days. I thought that meant heel pain...nope, toe pain.

His shoulder pain is on his left, so he was really hurting.

For now, on all horses, I just touch up bevel, make sure bars are not above wall at any point, and am patiently waiting for everything to correct itself. Some need a few swipes with rasp across bottom, but it never much with maintenance trimming.

Sorry I didn't take pictures after I attempted to tweak these hoofs. Sometimes I spend more time taking pictures than trimming!

Hope this helps. Think you can see what I am struggling with, and without the benefit of a good farrier. You and Hank are not alone!

Tell Hank Tango says "hello, be patient, these humans of ours will figure it out."



Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jul 19, 2009 - 11:17 am:

Thanks Angie They do look very similar to Hanks! Especially that "toe bump"

May I ask is that last pic Tangos hoof?
Is it the picture or is the frog recessed in that hoof if so why?

Hank feels much better today, his fronts seem to be on the mend already, the pulse is way down and he is walking good in front. His rears seem to still be bothering him tho, they also have a pulse above normal. I put Iodine on his fronts last night and will do that to the backs too tonight...poor guy. He is WAY better tho, so I will see how he does in the future. I didn't plan on putting shoes back on until I could ride again, but from the looks of his fetlock that may be awhile

Tango is so darn cute! But aren't all the horned ones!

Thanks again!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Jul 19, 2009 - 12:27 pm:

Diane - if I were to post photos of Moonlight's hooves here, I would confuse everyone. She has very flat feet, and often wears her sole at the front of her front hooves. Is not lame however - she has always been this way. My gelding has a nice, classical dished hoof.

So many differences depending on the horse ....

Lilo
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Jul 19, 2009 - 1:19 pm:

Just in for lunch, yes, Diane, no frog contact with ground on that hoof. BAD!! It was soft and lots of loose stuff that I had to take off this spring, not sure why it isn't plumper now. Very dry and hard.

The "T" is for Tango, not Toe! I mark each hoof with the horses initial at the front of hoof, then LF, RF, LH, RH, and use the text on Picasa for more info.

Lilo,

I hear ya about the confusion..what I see in person, 3D, is not what I see in pictures, 2D. That is why I ordered PR's DVDs; I needed to see things being done as they were explained. So very helpful!

My other challenging case is our flat footed, white hooved mare, Gem. THey just never look like normal hoofs to me. To show them 2D is hard to convey what is there.

the other 2 have nice shaped hoofs, much easier to work on. I always spend at least twice as long on the first 2, compared to "normal hoofs."

Thanks, yup, he's cute & sweet, as long as I don't get ideas about riding him, He's just here for me to practice my trimming on, huh.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Jul 19, 2009 - 1:38 pm:

Hi all,

First , I'd like to say thanks to Dr. O, I just read his Overview article that has been the basis of much of the discussion here and he is right on.

One must understand the structure of the hoof (Internal and external) in order to trim a hoof properly. One also needs to understand the relationship of the external structures to the internal structures and how the internal structures are affected by the trim.

I am not sure what possessed me 3 years ago, to look at barefoot horses, after all I had been in the training business for 30 + years and had been a user of traditional farrier methods for all of those years, but other than to try different shoes and make sure my farrier had the correct angle and toe length, I pretty much did not pay much attention to anything else he did, trusting his experience and expertise.

Then two things happened, a woman moved into my barn that kept her horses barefoot and another trainer on my farm told me she pulled the shoes off of every horse she got and let them go barefoot for three weeks before she put shoes on them. She told me that most of a horses bad acting problems are because of their feet and once the feet were fixed that most of the problems went away.

The woman that moved into my barn, while she had the right idea to keep her horses barefoot, she unfortunately did not know how to do a proper trim and her horses were constantly sore.Trying to figure out why one trainer's horses were sore and the other trainers horses were sound was what made me start to research barefoot horses and the variety of trims that were available. I have Pete Ramey's books and Videos, KC La Pierre, Jaime Jackson etc. but the one that started me out right in the beginning was David Fryer's video for Trimming the Natural foot. I got this video when I got my first shipment of Hoof Armor and he included it at no charge.

My farrier at the time thought I was nuts to want to go barefoot, but he came over to my house and watched the video, so he could see what I wanted him to do with the trim and with the Hoof Armor.

Some pointer in the video were:
1. Never touch the sole unless it is loose and flaky and coming off on its own ( exfoliation). Healthy feet do this naturally, no interference by us humans needed.
2. Look to see if the frog is laying over to one side. Laying to the left, the right side is high, laying to the right the left side is high. Trim accordingly.
3. Only trim what is necessary to fix the unbalance. Do not trim just for the sake of trimming. That will get you into trouble.
4. Read the foot. It will tell you what you have to trim and each foot may be different.

Since these very preliminary findings and my continued research into all things barefoot. I have learned diet, exercise, environment and common sense play crucial roles in keeping a barefoot horse sound.

This is why I give my newly barefooted horses several days to get used to being barefoot, before I start them slowly into an exercise routine. My goal is to stimulate the foot to grow a bit more than the foot is wearing. To do it on a surface that is as close to the surface that the horse will normally be working on and to do it in a gradual manner so the horse does not get footsore. I do not use boots!

While I think boots have their place, I look at them as a shortcut or a temporary measure to get to the point that the horse can safely go on any type of terrain without them. However, I do realize that some people want instant gratification by being able to ride as soon as the shoes come off and for these folks boots are very necessary.

Diane, I am sorry to hijack your thread, I just wanted everyone to know where I am coming from with regards to my critique of Hank's hooves and some pointers to help others. I can't remember where I saw it, but someone( Angie) said. More is not necessarily better, less is more and keep it simple( Although this last is not an easy thing to do)

Just my thoughts, comments anyone.
Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jul 19, 2009 - 2:52 pm:

Rachelle my only comment would be you didn't read these parts in the articles, that some pathologies do need shoes...either to keep the horse comfortable while working on these pathologies or keep the horse sound for life...not quoting

I guess I have these thread scattered thru HA, and it is like living the Groundhog day movie over and over ever ytime I pull his shoes he is VERY sore....not transitional sore...VERY sore.

I have x-rays...on here somewhere showing that very thin sole, but I will show you in case you haven't seen them...we are making progress....with shoes
7/9...2007...crappy x-ray as usual, but you can see the problems easily


4-24....2008 great improvement but a way to go


This is why I don't like to see this horse sore, those thin soles can lead to a lot of problems that I have had cascade into laminitis/severely bruised soles ect. Would proper barefoot trimming work on him...HMMMMM my gut says no, too many problems. BUT I think we may be getting to that point just not yet.

I didn't give him bute this morning(to check things out) and he is VERY sore again. He is going on lock up in the lean-to until I can get his shoes back on, I think it is best for him.

As far as barefoot horses, no argument from me that is best for them...UNTIL....
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Jul 19, 2009 - 5:11 pm:

Diane,

I agree with you, some horses do need something to make them comfortable, but IMO it may not be nailed on shoes. For me its not the shoes themselves that are an issue, it is the preparation of the hoof for the shoes ( and the nails) that bothers me.

I have been faced with this issue before, wanting to keep my HPT trim, yet being forced to put shoes on because of an abrasive racing surface. I solved that problem by using Sigafoos shoes that did not require nails and did not require glue on the bottom of the foot. The shoe is held on by a cuff attached to the outside wall. The shoe also has a special pad, so there is no sole pressure at all which is what Hank's feet can't take(sole pressure).

There are also other options besides nailed on shoes. You might want to check out www.equicast.com or Perfect Hoofwear at www.equinepodiatry.net. Both are easy to apply, provide support and above all relieves sole pressure by getting the horse's sole up off the ground.

Hank does need to come up off his soles, but his feet will never become truly healthy unless all the stars align correctly. Right now , you have most of the stars aligned, diet, environment etc. Just one more little tweak with his feet and you will have a perfect horse:-).

Do I believe that a proper trim will help? I most certainly do because I have seen xrays of horses with much worse feet than Hanks that in time and with no nailed on shoes make complete turnarounds and go on to be very useful and sound horses.

Rachelle
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jul 19, 2009 - 7:35 pm:

Some very good points made by Rachelle and Angie about barefoot VS shoes and also about techniques.

Some horses do need shoes but I had a natural farrier tell me last summer that the main thing that they accomplish is to numb the foot by impairing circulation. How healthy is that?

Thin soles can be thickened, flat feet can become concave, unsound, tender-footed horses can even heal after many years of unsoundness and do wonderfully barefoot. This includes horses that farriers tell you should not go barefoot and horses that have suffered laminitis. There are sometimes "bumps in the road" on the journey to healthy feet.

Sometimes shoes are needed for a short term problem and other times they are necessary forever.

Rachelle is right about the consequences of doing too much at one time and trimming too much or too often.

Sometimes there isn't anything that needs trimming -- just leveling or practically nothing.

I wish you continuing improvement and healing for Hank with whatever you decide to do for him, Diane, but if he is sore after a trim, that does not tell me that Hank needs shoes, but that your farrier didn't get it right even though he has made some improvements for Hank over time.

I have had farriers who would seem to start out making improvements but over time they would go back to an average trim that is the ideal in their own mind, which did not respect the uniqueness of the individual horse.

And farriers who would just "eyeball" the foot and not worry that much about whether they were level.

My current farrier asked a group of us to look at the bottom of a foot on a horse that he had just pulled the shoes off for. The horse had been diagnosed with ring bone, is older, and had been mostly taken out of dressage work because he wasn't going well.

Interestingly, one of my past farriers who had my boys going poorly before I switched away from him had been trimming and shoeing this particular horse whose feet were very un-level under the shoes.

My farrier asked us all which side of the foot was higher (longer). Every one of us including a man who for years had been trimming many horses on his own farm selected the wrong side, as we discovered when the farrier laid the file across the foot to check for balance. Our eyes lie -- appearances can be deceiving.

When this horse was taken out of shoes and balanced up he went wonderfully and was able to return to a big workload performing again.

My farrier also is not into pretty-looking feet as a major idea, but rather a good way of going that respects the individual traits of the horse.

He put balance into my horses feet, and never over-trimmed anything or made them sore. If shoes were needed short term in the process for some extreme problem (such as Lance breaking his heel out to the coronet) the shoe would be light weight with the fewest nails possible, would not extend back past the heel, and certainly no clips or fiberglass filling. He believes that to promote the healing process, the least possible measure that will work under the circumstance will be the best solution for the longer term. Give the horse just enough help to heal himself.

The difficulties each individual horse of mine had with their feet worked out and healed through the gift of good balance, reading the foot and respecting the individual horse rather than trying to correct the hoof into a perceived ideal form.

My farrier did study under K.C. LaPierre for a very long time, and also under another gentleman whose name I have forgotten. He used all of the knowledge and incorporated it into his own methods and "do no harm" is one of the major components.

All best wishes with Hank.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Sunday, Jul 19, 2009 - 10:13 pm:

My vet, who works with several farriers to rehab hoof problems says something similar to what Vicki says. It's a gross generalization, but the gist is that farriers must be "tough" individuals! And sometimes that toughness makes it hard to get them to fundamentally change. He says he often sees them doing exactly what he prescribes as long as the horse is under his (the vet's) eye, but they revert to "muscle memory" as the horse gets more sound and without them even realizing it, they are back trimming like they learned years ago--the same trim whether the horse is to be shod or not. As I said, it's a gross generalization and my apologies to the wonderful farriers (I am lucky enough to have one) who pursue continuing education and remain open minded.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 7:50 am:

Hank got 1.5 grams of bute last night. His pulses are all normal except the FR. He is still moving sore, but I can see it is probably (mostly) the FR..he stutter steps on it a bit, points it.

I will leave him in the deep bedding...he can go in the hard paddock, but chooses not to. He moves fine in the lean-to with the bedding. Maybe this is a good thing, keeps him from ripping around on that injured suspensory. I am going to keep him on 1 gram of bute 2x daily until that DP in RF goes back to "normal" will hold off on the shoes for now since small improvement(very small!) is occuring.

Yes my farrier could use to improve a little, but he is all I have! I will tell him how sore Hank got and he will try very hard not to do it again (which is NOT easy)
Thanks
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 9:05 am:

All,

Julie and Vicki make some very good points as well and I agree with them. It is very hard for some farriers to change what they have been doing somewhat successfully( for them) for years but I have seen great differences when soundness ( of entire body and not just feet) is put at the top of the list over the prettiness of matched feet.

I too have a trimmer that cares about my horses, I guess I am very spoiled and I expect other hoofcare professionals to feel the same way he does.

Diane there are times where I thought I was doing the right thing for my horses, when in hindsight it turns out that it was the wrong thing to do, I had to learn from my mistakes, just like you have. But one of the things I learned how to do was to break everything down to its component parts and find to find out what the real cause of a problem was and then to deal with that whatever way was necessary.

In all of your posts, you mention that Hanks has thin soles and that nothing other than shoeing him helps. So, what makes his sole thin to the point he is unable to go over any other surface other than his paddock.

From the x-rays, I can see that his coffin bone points down (negative angle) so that the tip of it is almost on the sole, so every time this horse takes a step that coffin bone gets jarred, making him foot sore. He needs concavity in his feet to raise the coffin bone up and away from the ground surface.

I know these xrays are not current, but to me it looks like the heels need to be lowered ( gradually) and the toe backed up properly.

Now, if we come back to today, in my minds eye I can see inside Hanks feet without the xrays. His heels are still too high and his toe has been chopped off making the coffin bone much closer to the ground again and making him very sore.

That coffin bone needs to be almost parallel to the ground so the entire bone is being used and the point of it is protected.

When your farrier puts the shoes on, he does raise the entire foot up so the coffin bone is not touching the ground, but he also pares the sole thinning it even more and is not correcting the heels so as to level out the coffin bone. So what happens is the horse appears sound but the mechanics of the foot are not correct and so when the shoes come off the problems( thin sole etc. ) reappear thus making it appear that he can not be used barefoot and is better in shoes.

Ok thats it for me, I think we've beaten this topic to death. You have a lot of good advice in this thread, but in the end you will do what you think best for Hank.

I hope he keeps improving and quits worrying you so much. I have his and your best interests at heart even if I sometimes disagree with your outlook. In the end he is your horse and you pay the bills ( at least this is what I say to some people that try to give me advice, like the farrier that told me I was nuts to go barefoot). I really do understand what you are going through.


Rachelle
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 9:20 am:

Poor Hank -- Hope that you can keep him comfortable, Diane.

He sounds so much like my Buddy who was off and on lame for so many years, in and out of bandaid treatments that would work a bit for varying amounts of fairly short time.

For 12 years he wasn't sound on a hard surface in or out of shoes and would act like he was going to fall down with pain.

Now he is sound barefoot on any surface and has had a whole new attitude and joy for life.

Farriers always described him as "thin-soled" and "flat footed" and some of them would leave him somewhat unlevel in attempt to counteract his developed tendency to toe in.

"Muscle memory" in traditionally trained farriers, as described by Julie, is a big problem.

It seems that the majority of horses will manage to "get along" when trimmed that way, but some won't do well. And those methods cause many horses to stay in shoes.

Many farriers are not anxious to get horses out of shoes and will admit they like the money they making maintaining horses in shoes.

It takes a special person to care more about each horses' well-being more than his pocketbook.

Buddy had been telling me for years that my farriers were really hurting him. It was painfully difficult for him to stand on one front foot for any period of time.

Now he loves my farrier. Any others over the years who used to struggle with him, including sometimes picking a fight, which didn't work well, probably would not believe the change in attitude or way of going.

My friends who had seen him, or ridden him (very rough ride) over the years can barely believe it is the same old Buddy.

The farrier I used before the one I have had for at least a couple of years now was someone who I liked very much, and considered a friend but he wasn't managing to make progress with a long-standing situation with Lance. At first I told him that I had to try the newer techniques on Lance to see if we could find a breakthrough. Lance did so splendidly that I could not deny improvement for my other boys.

While hoping for improvement for Buddy (who had been diagnosed with navicular), I would not have expected the soundness that has been achieved after so very many years of on-going problems and off and on lameness and pain.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 5:04 pm:

Well I am full of good news today, thankfully! Last week was enough to make me want to crawl under a rock and hibernate!!! The horses were just the topping on a bad week.

Vet checked Hanks hooves out when he was here for US, first thing when he looked at them he said OUCH, guess he did trim him a little short. Hank is moving much better this afternoon. Vet said the same as me DP is throbbing pretty good in RF...the others were fairly quiet..he said he would rate them 2/10 His RF a 5/10. He said if I wanted to wait until Hank was rideable...probably in 2 weeks before I put shoes on it would be ok to see how it plays out. He said once the fetlock swelling is gone and he is able to go back to light work. I should put shoes on IF he isn't sound by then. He said exercise is imperative for Hank (and it is) AND I want to ride before summer is over! So Hank is going to tell us if barefoot will work or not!

Who could be a better judge then him I guess
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 5:30 pm:

Rachelle, I understand your enthusiasm. Hanks coffin bone was pointing down because of rotation from his founder in the first x-ray is right after his founder(approx 8 degrees rotation which is signifigant enough!) that's why his sole appears thin in that one...the second one is about a year later. So the farrier had gotten him almost derotated...there's a little rotation left in the last x-ray but not much and his sole had gotten much thicker...can't remember the exact measurement anymore...but quite a bit.

The farrier does not ever pare his sole. His big problem with Hank is taking too much toe off, or rolling it to much or something. It has been our biggest problem in getting the WL to tighten. This time the WL had improved significantly!

The biggest puzzle with hank has ALWAYS been how to bring that toe back with out making him sore... Dr.O. has told me once or twice to square his toe...which would leave support at the corners, this makes sense and I keep forgetting to tell the farrier this. I think you mentioned above his toe looked square...it is not, it is round. I think if I can keep him barefoot that will be my next plan...HOPEFULLY I can remember to tell the farrier!
Thank you very much for your input! and everyone else too. I'll report on how he does in the next 2 weeks. Barefoot MAY be possible.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 6:45 pm:

Diane, is it possible your farrier is rasping the toe from the bottom? What I mean is across the sole instead of from the top? Taking the toe back on a horse like Hank would be done from the top, not the sole. It's so elementary I'm almost embarrassed to ask that, but he is really short at the toe.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 7:46 pm:

Julie he puts his hoof on the hoof stand and rasps straight down..then rounds it up...he does not rasp from the bottom at all. Does not pare his sole at all, vet told him that is sacred ground, and he does not touch it, unless there is some old stuff hanging there...there wasn't this time.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 8:04 pm:

Rachelle makes a good point about the heels, Diane. Does your farrier ever take off any of what is "underrun?"

Good luck to you and Hank.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 8:47 pm:

Vicki, Hank does have somewhat underun heels, but a big improvement over what they used to be. I think my pictures make them look worse then they really are. I think Dr.O. once said it's hard to make judgements if you haven't seen what the farrier had to start with.

Here's a pic of Hanks short shod long toed underun hoof when the farrier before him was doing him...This is what my farrier I have now walked into + a founder. I think he has done a pretty good job, he is just having a hard time figuring out the last of the tweaking and given time I think he will...I hope!
Hows this for ugly

2007 before this farrier, I'm glad he didn't turn and run the other way!

Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 9:44 pm:

Diane,

oooh, ugly. Hank has come a long way!

Tonight, my trimmer came out to trim my mare. Based on what he saw in her feet, we are good to continue to train down barefoot. SHe is starting to correct her own angles, she is gaining concavity in her soles, her walls are thickening up. Her medial and lateral cartiledges are perfect for a horse in heavy work. Good!

He did not take any heel as these are just starting to develop again(Thank goodness).

I watched what he did when he beveled her. He did not rasp straight down nor did he rasp from the bottom. What he did was angle the rasp and just touched the toe and then smoothed it out. If you watched the video on youtube this is exactly what the girl on the video did. The only time I saw him use the rasp on the bottom of her foot was when he used it to see if she was level and then just touched up the part of her foot that wasn't. He also laid the rasp against the front hoof wall to look at how straight her walls come down from the coronary band. Very little daylight between wall and rasp ( No flare).

All and all I was very pleased. Her feet showed me I was not doing more than she can handle at this time. Her feet were in very good condition and it appears the amount of work on the dirt/sand track is doing what it is supposed to do, providing the right amount of stimulus to keep her feet growing while providing for the right amount of wear to make her use the structures of her feet correctly. But mostly I just wanted to watch what he did and report back to you folks.

If I can get her to cooperate and get my camera to work I'll post pictures.

Diane, I am really glad that all your horsey problems will soon be a thing of the past, you have gone through quite a bit in the last few months, Kudos to you for hanging in there.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 10:12 pm:

Just quickly wanted to say to Rachelle & Vicki, thanks for what you offered here. I got alot of good points from your posts, I agree with what was said, and can only hope some day I can see inside the hoof and understand it as well as you two seem to. AND apply what I know correctly.

Lots to think about, isn't there Diane?! I think Tango had some heat and elevated DP tonight too, and he's back off of pasture, I am off to watch the 2nd DVD on laminitis.

Keep on Keeping on Diane!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jul 20, 2009 - 10:26 pm:

Rachelle I would love of see your mares hooves. As much as I have no desire to learn how to trim, I still like to know what can be done.

I paniced this morning when the vet called Before he US Hank and said he should get shoes on as weighting his injured hind was not good. I called my farrier and left a message I would like to get his shoes back on ASAP.

He just called me back...how nice is that. I told him we ended up US Hanks fetlock and everything looked good so I was going to hold off on the shoes at least until he is rideable again.

I told him I don't know how he can solve the problem we always seem to have...Hank walking on his sole at the toe after a trim. I mentioned the squaring and he don't think that would work for some reason. So he said he would put some thought into it. We know we can't leave extra wall...that turns into a flared mess. I really don't know the ans to it.... The farrier called it a bit of a catch 22 and it is. We'll see what he comes up with next trim if I don't end up putting shoes back on.

I'm very glad things are starting to "turn the corner" too. Tonight I had 3 horses in their pasture together grazing....we are getting there! So nice to have that mare getting back to normal! She's been locked up since Feb.(kind of)I built her a pasture in the yard. All 3 cantered up the hill when I called them in...looking pretty good (ummm normal)
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 21, 2009 - 7:30 am:

All Dp's are pretty quiet today, what my vet would call sub-clinical. He was standing on the hard paddock today waiting for breakfast, he hadn't wanted to step on that before. He is still moving slightly sore, especially on turns on hard ground.

He also is still on one gram bute 2x's a day. Now that the DP's are "sub clinical" I am going to try to reduce it and see where we stand! Vet said to leave him on one gram regardless for his fetlock. BIG sigh of relief
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 21, 2009 - 8:06 am:

Diane,

When I suggested the DAEP trimmers come in for an evaluation, it was not intended for have them teach you how to trim, but more along the line of education, for you as well as your farrier. I knew it probably wouldn't work out long term because of the distance involved.

I also understand your frustration at not being able to ride your horse for a variety of different problems that include his feet, but maybe you need to take a different approach to Hank, call it 'Project Hank' ( not that it already hasn't been) but look at it as more of a long term project and that project is to have Hank barefoot and sound and being ridden on terrain other than his paddock comfortably.

You will need to decide what that terrain is, if it is your arena than most of what you do should happen in there and you must go very slow ( meaning how much work you do and not how fast you go at any gait).

I would also put Hank on a shorter trim cycle, not because he will need to be trimmed but because his feet need more constant and consistent monitoring and because it will reduce the amount trimmed at any one time making it less of a drastic change to his feet.. For a few trim cycles I would give him a day or so off after the trim and I would boot him immediately during those off days even in the paddock unless the ground was really soft. If you don't give him a chance to get sore chances are he won't, its really just a matter of protection until his hooves toughen back up after the trim.

I would handle Hank as a rehab case until I saw that what I was doing was not hurting him, sort of what I did with my mare. I wanted the verification from the trimmer that what I had done so far was ok.

I think finding that happy medium with Hank's feet will come about more quickly with more frequent trims, but only trimming the parts that really need it rather than trying to take off more because of the longer trim cycle, and once everything is under control, you might be able to extend the cycle longer.

The other part of finding the happy medium is knowing how much work ( stimulus) it takes to make your horses feet grow and how much wear he is getting and to try and find the balance. This is one area that not enough people pay attention to and can be a considerable cause for pain when a horses feet are not hard as nails tough. They need to be built up to that point.

All I can say is you know your horse and he will be the one that determines everything that happens, but don't give up(I know you won't)and give Hank the benefit of the doubt when it comes to going barefoot. What I keep in mind always is that sometimes , its three steps forward and two steps back until one day you get the shock of your life when you realize that your horses are acting normal for more than one day( or 1 hour) at a time.

I know its a long haul, but I know you can do it. Your patience will reward you with sound and 'normal' horses.

Rachelle
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 21, 2009 - 8:18 am:

Diane,

I just thought of something. Why don't you have your farrier use your riders rasp to bevel his foot, that way he does not have to get aggressive and will not take too much off.
Rachelle
Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 21, 2009 - 9:54 am:

Hi Diane, you say this morning he was sore on turns. That's one of the things my vet evaluated when I had a laminitic horse. He'd ask the horse to do a fairly tight turn. If they sort of tried to walk around the turn instead of just stepping to the side, he'd begin thinking laminitis a possibility. Boy, you sure got more than a "hoof critique" with this thread didn't you! Whatever is going on, it seems you're moving in the right direction which says to me "keep doin' what you're doin'!"
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 21, 2009 - 5:33 pm:

Julie he has been sore on tight turns since his shoes came off, I am certain he is not foundering He does have sore toes tho and most horses with sore feet are short on tight turns. If I hadn't dealt with enough founder to last me a few lifetimes it would make me wonder. You are 100% right tho that is ONE sure sign of laminitis!

Hanks DP's are GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!COMPLETELY!

He is still tender, but that DP leaving is a VERY good sign. It has rained 2 in. here today, and still raining. The ground is going to be soft for awhile that should help him along until he grows some wall at the toe. Hopefully his soles won't get soggy and soft.

I am not going to give him bute tonight and see what morning brings. AN aside he has always had a DP barefoot sometimes sub-clinical, sometimes way more then I like...but always present. This is the first time in years he hasn't had at least a tick(barefoot)...hope it continues! Very encouraging anyway
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 21, 2009 - 7:14 pm:

Soggy and soft over time is a problem too, isn't it?

Perry was tender on his left front yesterday and when I pressed the sole behind the toe it was very soft.

I've been giving him a gram of Bute AM and PM since and hoping that this extremely soft sole does not progress into an abscess.

Area seemed harder this morning and I cleaned feet and put Betadine on soft areas and in toe crack.

If it's not one thing, it's another.

Wishing good progress for Hank!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 21, 2009 - 7:43 pm:

Thanks vicki, I think soggy and soft is more of a problem then hard ground....in the long run!

I decided to lock him in the paddock/lean to. Didn't want him slipping in the mud and making that fetlock worse AND his hooves can stay dry too!!!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 21, 2009 - 9:05 pm:

How right you are Diane.

These horses are like small children, aren't they?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 9:02 pm:

Hank seems to be recovering quickly now. I didn't give him bute this morning. The sun came out and dried the pasture.

His tight turns were normal on the hard paddock. He walked with out "cringing" to the water which has gravel and HARD limestone around it I had almost moved the water tub to the lean-to as I couldn't hardly stand watching him tip-toe to it slowly and sorely since his shoe removal. DP's still gone!

Canter and trot going out to pasture looked very very nice. I can't wait until that stupid fetlock(which IS looking much better too) is better to see if he will be sound to ride.
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 3:27 am:

Vicky, thank you for your excellent "writing/thought/description".
I wish many horse people would take it to heart . AM (Fame).
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 10:25 am:

Thank you, Fame.

We who keep horses can help each other a lot sometimes through sharing our experiences.

Others on this site have helped me get through many problems and Dr. O is always there as our main advisor and very competent moderator to keep us from getting too far off course.

Hope that Hank continues to improve, Diane.

We have finally had a couple of days without rain in our area, and this week looks to be drier.

The horses' feet and skin definitely need a break, though none will enjoy the heat.

With lush grass and plentiful rains the rule recently, I saw a lot of ragged looking feet out on the trails yesterday.
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 11:40 am:

Rachelle, can you please give me the exact you-tube Link/ Url. Sorry I've missed it.......fame.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 1:26 pm:

Fame,

I did not post the link, but if you do a search on barefoot trimming, there are several videos that come up.

Here is the first link
Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsXusOCNS-U


Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9QEKSxj7uo
Rachelle
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 5:11 pm:

Thank you Rachelle, will do .
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 8:05 am:

I think I'm going to do a "do over" since the bute has left his system he is pretty sore again. When he is sore in front I have noticed his fetlock injury looks way worse.

I think next week I am going to have his shoes put back on until next appointment and will try barefoot with a different trim...or no trim at all at first. He is pretty painful and I see no sense in making him work thru it, or live on bute.

Thanks for all your help!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 3:34 pm:

If Hank's discomfort continues I can surely understand that you should do something to help him, Diane.

Here's hoping that isn't shoeing AND buting.

There was one time when a farrier did an especially bad job on Buddy where he was pretty sore for a couple of weeks.

If you do shoe and try pulling shoes again another time, don't trim right away, as was suggested earlier in this conversation.

All best wishes with Hank.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 4:31 pm:

Shoeing has always snapped him right out of it. His RF has been a problem since he foundered, I don't know if his RF sole is thinner or what for sure. I just don't want to mess with that fetlock. The swelling had been going down quite a bit, but now it is coming back a little, along with the DP in RF. His LF seems to be holding up well.

Gotta get the boy staightened out, he usually starts barefoot in Mid-Oct. and does fine through the winter with a few sore days if the ground gets icy and irregular, but we made it through last year quite well....we're getting there slowly, but surely
Thanks
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 5:07 pm:

Hi Diane,
I am not sure if you have watched these videos, but the same girl who did the ones on the barefoot trimming part 1 and part 2 has three other videos called the Gift Horse parts 1,2, & 3. In one of them she explains why she is doing something during her trim that she knows is going to make her horse sore, but she feels its the only way to fix the horse and she explains why just a little bit of imbalance can create a whole slew of problems.

I think I have a solution that you can do yourself now to see if it would help Hank. It involves vetwrapping his foot around the outside wall taping the vet wrap , not to tightly on the bulbs but enough to keep it on and then putting a piece of duct tape around the bottom. In effect to raise his sole and toe off the ground to give him some relief. If you have any elastoplast you could put that right on the sole and then wrap.

I am not sure how long this would last but as long as you are not riding he should show some improvement.

I just wish there were some other solution other than nailing shoes on him as I think this may be part of the problem.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 3:20 pm:

Thanks Rachelle. I have gone the duct tape/ pads/vet rap route. I will admit it definitley helps in the comfort level. The main thing I don't like about that process is how soggy his soles get. I believe that's when he got the WLD/Thrush in his WL...it literally started to crumble along with his hoof wall. He has been fairly comfortable on 1 gram of bute, but the ground is soft again from all the rain. I think in a weeks time if I can keep that fetlock under control(another concern) he will be able to go back to light work. He really needs to get some exercise(living in the land of good and plenty!) and I don't see it happening barefoot. I have used the lil swimmers for a wrap and that did keep his hoof dry, I am the hoof wrap queen! Here is the wrap I came up with by accident and it is GREAT... but you can't ride in them. https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/185158.html

I'm going to try shoes again this cycle and next time we go bare I will not have him trimmed on the same day...I should have remembered that!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 5:01 pm:

Diane,
While the swimmies are a great idea, that is not what I am talking about.

With my idea, you would just wrap the bottom part of the hoof wall and not the entire foot, similar to the equicasts or the Perfect hoof wear. You would not be covering up the sole, there is no pad, just raising it above the ground enough to give him some relief ( this is what the shoe does).

I suggested this now as a way for you to see if a solution like this would work as a temporary measure, I have used this while jogging so you can work in them, but I always removed them each day as I wanted the horses to be barefoot when not working.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 5:20 pm:

OHHHH a Duct tape/vet wrap shoe Love it!
I may give it a try tomorrow, out of curiosity if nothing else!! VERY interesting


Thanks
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 5:44 pm:

If I may mention, there is a very nice reading about Founder on Google, Pete Ramey, section Bare foot for soundness .
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 7:24 pm:

Fame I kid you not I have read every article on the internet about founder 100 times.

DrO.'s being the best IMHO

Hank is not foundering, he was trimmed short, and having barefoot shock.

Rachelle, I tried the duct tape/vet rap shoes I am going to start a different thread tho, as this one is a bit long as all of mine are for some reason.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 9:08 pm:

New thread..I'm finally figuring out it helps to do that...https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/327611.html
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 8:19 pm:

Good News SO far anyway you guys making me be patient has paid off. Hanks seems to be sound on his fronts now, DP's have quit coming and going, No more tip toeing in the paddock! Sharp turns look as good as they get for him. For now I think barefoot will be OK, I don't know how he will fare in ridden work. He looks more lame with the fetlock injury now that his front feet don't hurt. Which is good I guess, at least I can tell how it is healing. Any ideas how to fix that Patience is being tried once again!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 11:52 am:

WELL I'm going to try barefoot again on Hank, but doing it the right way! (for him anyway) He has a loose shoe so the farrier is going to pull his shoes tonight. We are not going to trim ANYTHING off. The ground is hard now it finally stopped raining, which I think is better than soft ground and mushy hooves.

My next real farrier appt. is Sept. 11 so we are going to see how he handles it for that period and go from there. Now that I know his fetlock isn't bothering him, I'll know where the ouchiness is coming from IF he gets ouchy. I have a feeling he will be OK
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 2:46 pm:

I hope he is o.k. If he's ouchy, I bet beveling the walls without taking off height will fix that.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 3:26 pm:

Diane --

For positive reinforcement, I am sending you these links (though I do not recommend the Stasser trim that is referred to in the eventing portion).

Many horses here where I live have been tender footed in recent weeks on account of the rain and soft hooves.

If necessary, I am going to put my "Renegade" boots on Lance.

Good luck with Hank.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 3:27 pm:

Whoops!

Here are the links:


https://www.thehorseshoof.com/barefootperf_jump.html check out barefoot jumping!

https://www.marthaolivo.com/articles/article21.shtml eventing barefoot (though I don't recommend the Strasser method for trimming)

https://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Horseshoes.html barefoot is better and successful in the worst terrains
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 4:01 pm:

Diane,

You are doing the right thing, the only thing I would do is after the farrier pulls his shoes ( and does nothing else!) take your riders rasp and bevel the edge, this will prevent the nail holes from chipping up his feet. If you have any TuffStuff around (or clear nail hardener) I'd put it around the nail holes and the outer edge of his hoof.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 4:21 pm:

I think it is a good thing to try again, the stars and moon seemed alighned right

The farrier didn't make it, he is putting up hay and didn't get done on time, but he is coming tomorrow(hopefully)

Hanks hoof walls really are getting beat up from the nail holes and don't look real healthy. I'm sure I'm going to be dealing with chips and cracks and breakage. I will bevel with the Riders rasp...good idea!

Thanks for the encouragement and the links. I have a good gut feeling about it this time...usually I don't! I expect a little ouchiness...but nothing like last time..I HOPE!
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 7:55 pm:

Hi DianE,
I've followed this Hoof Critique thread and the ups, downs, ins, and outs that you experience with Hank and his feet.

This summer, I learned that it doesn't take much to take barefootn' from a working option to a scary, nerve wracking situation. The details are in my last post under "Now What?" You may find that post interesting, but it doesn't belong in this lively thread.

I'm pulling for you and Hank, and hope that you work out something good that does not involve putting any nails in his pore ol feets.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 5:00 am:

Good luck, Diane! I am lucky with two barefoot horses. If you can get it to work, you'll be happier and Hank will be too.
Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 4:00 pm:

Thanks Lilo OK well Hank is barefoot and walked off without missing a beat, the ground is hard! He walked into the limestone paddock perfectly Trotted out on it for his hay!

I have pictures but I had to take them in the grass, so not perfect as usual. He has the long toe UR heel going on as usual. NOW how do we trim him without making him sore...that is the $1000 question?

Here's some pics, I can TRY to take better ones tomorrow, it was just getting too late to get good ones before dark.




Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 4:47 pm:

Diane,

I have an idea. About an hour before the farrier comes out, soak Hank's feet in warm water and get his foot to show you where he needs to get trimmed. You can sight down the hoof and use your indelible marker to circle just where the foot is high and only trim that. In fact you may even be able to tell by his shoes that just came off. Look at how he wore them. I am not sure though if he had these shoes on long enough for you to be able to see the wear on them.

With this next trim, all I would do is clean him up a bit, make sure his bars are where they should be and bevel around the outside of his feet very lightly trying not to take off too much toe. I would not touch this horse with anything other than a rasp and a hoof knife (to clean out and remove any shedding frog). Do not use nippers to take off any foot and let his sole exfoliate itself, do not touch it. Walking barefoot on the limestone and hard ground should take care of the sole exfoliation.

Anyway thats my 2 cents worth. I really don't think his feet look all that bad and if your guy wasn't scheduled to come back on the 11, I would not even bother to do anything for a while but leave him alone.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 4:59 pm:

Rachelle I think you are right, I think the nippers may have to stay in the truck!HMMMMM.

I see I put the same picture in twice

Here's the one from the front. I was kind of surprised how good his hoof actually looked (considering everything) His WL is thrushy again so I am going to begin work on that!

Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 5:10 pm:

Diane,

I think the nippers is where most farriers get into trouble. My trimmer has worked on my horses for three years and has NEVER used a set of nippers on any of my horses.


Rachelle
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Saturday, Sep 5, 2009 - 6:52 pm:

DianE I like his nice, fleshy frogs. Wish HB had such robust, fat frogs.

BTW Dave doesn't ever use nippers on Hairball. The substitute trimmer did, and that didn't turn out too well.

He never takes any sole off either and rarely trims his frogs. He lets those exfoliate themselves, and it works out well.

Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 4:16 am:

Hanks hooves usually notice they are without shoes the next day, so this morning is when I expected to see soreness if there was going to be any.

RF(the cursed hoof) has a VERY slight DP, LF is quiet, he is moving just fine. I think it helps that they are on 24/7 turnout, even tho their pasture has been halved and isn't very big (due to us building a machine shed)

I'm hoping to have time to ride him lightly at walk in the arena tomorrow, that will tell the tale

I think the idea of just using the rasp is a good idea, he does wear his hoof wall down on his own since we have a limestone paddock and arena....
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 4:49 am:

Diane,

Could you start a part 2 perhaps with the latest pcitures? I have the delayed typing goin again.

I agree with what Rachelle says 100%, he just needs some touching up.

Bevel the walls with the rasp. That is step one.
Bevel the toes also, don't take off toe height.

I would take my knife then and take a tad off the bars, and at the quarters where the big flares are. If you over bevel the quarters the wall with get thinner, so I prefer to use the knife there. Scooping flat.

See the picture from my July 19th post? Do bevel the heels also, like that.



I would not even pay anyone to touch his hoofs at this point. All that is needed is a few strokes with the fine side of the rasp. Just round the edge of the walls.

It is so easy, and so quick, and Hank will not be sore from it.

Less is more.

Please post a picrue of each front hoof, looking dwon from the heel to the toe. Need to see if there are any high spots. I don't think there are as he is sound and should have been level from shoes.

Take a pic after you bevel.

Be brave! You can do this!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 7:56 am:

Continued....https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/349226.html
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