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Discussion on Stall flooring Base that won't Pack Down
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 8:05 am:
When we built our barn 5 years ago I thought it would work great to put my "felt" over the sand base.
What we call felt is a paper mill product, comes off the paper machines. Comes in different materials, but for the stalls I used a heavy woven nylon.
The nylon was porous enough to offer drainage and also let sand poof through.
So...a couple of years ago I dug many wheel barrows of sand out, and put gravel on top, 4" deep.
Now the gravel has packed down hard as cement. And the flooring isn't very porous any more either. And the rocks have started to wear the material out. So plan on putting new felt in the stalls.
Does anyone have suggestions what to put down on top of the sand that would not pack down? I would like some "give" especially in the 2 stalls that remain open most of the time. They dig holes in the plain sand also, another disadvantage.
Pea gravel? Comes in different sizes?
I plan on having some pea gravel, plus something else, (not sure yet) delivered when I get my inner track made for my Paddock Paradise. So I could get the stall stuff then too.
I read about some volcanic rocks good for drainage but that don't sound comfy!
Maybe everything packs down eventually? This did shift and feel cushy at first.
Maybe I just need to dig it up and refresh it? (with a jack hammer?!)
I don't use bedding thus the comfort factor is important for them standing around. WHICH, shouldn't be happening if I get that track made, right~!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 9:30 am:
What type of gravel did you use? Most will grind down and pack under hooves over time and be like concrete. I have removed the gravel from three stalls twice trying to get the "right combination" to drain and not pack.
For what it's worth, I have Equiterr flooring over stone. The Equiterr honeycombs were filled with #12 stone and then about 1" or so on top. Barefoot horses ground that down to concrete in less than six months. That was removed (tediously with a drill, shop vac...). The honeycombs were then filled with peafill which is a harder stone/rock. So far so good with that. The peafill isn't plugging the honeycombs, but the organic matter (DrOpped hay or manure pancakes from bare feet) looks like it is on its way to plugging the honeycombs... But we'll see. I've only had the peafill in two stalls for about six months.
The other stall has rubber mats on top of the Equiterr.
I don't use bedding in the peafill stalls and only use bedding in the mat stall in the winter if necessary. Horses have free access to turnout lot from stalls and they usually do their "business" outside. However, the peafill stalls are urinated in more than the rubber stalls.
Equiterr prevents hole digging. Shoes will not harm the flooring. (although spiked pulling shoes wouldn't probably be a good idea...)
Other HA members who have kept horses for years probably have better long term info.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Aug 21, 2009 - 10:07 am:
My husband says what we have is pea gravel. I don't think so. I'd say it's 1" or maybe 3/4" stones. We have it on drive by the barn too so I am thinking it would be classified more as crushed gravel.
Of course what we drive on don't seem packed down, go figure!
I would think pea gravel is the size of peas?
Man, what we put ourselves through for the comfort of our horses. Can't wait to try and dig it out. It's a major battle just to get the felt up, stripped screw heads on the boards I have to remove from the walls, then I have to use vise grips to pull the heavy nylon type stuff out.
Better start eating my wheaties and taking Geritol, 
I'll look up Equiterr.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 5:06 am:
I'm pretty sure you don't have peafill on your driveway. That'd be like driving on soybeans. The drive doesn't pack because it doesn't get the continued friction of horse hooves/shoes twisting and grinding. Driveway gets rubber tires. Unless maybe you have a kid who spins and skids routinely in the driveway in a gocart or motorcycle..haha.
Peafill is harder than driveway stone. You will see peafill put in crawl spaces of homes, windowwells, etc. It is much more expensive than driveway stone, typically. Peafill is round with no sharp edges like stone, hence the "pea" in the name. It is about the size of a pea. I'll take photo of the peafill in my stalls and post.
The stone will eventually grind down to limestone "dust" which makes the concrete like packed down material. Look at Diane's arena photos. That's limedust that has been wet down, rolled, and packed.
I'm with you on the never ending battle to find "maintenance free"  stall and arena footing material. I don't think it exists.
Since I'm just a hobby horse owner, I don't have the pressure of barns for profit...efficiency isn't as big of a concern nor is cost--because I only have three horses, not 50... Not that I want to throw money away, but you know what I mean.
I went with the Equiterr for several reasons. It really never needs to be replaced. It will always be flat (with proper installation which is pretty darn easy). No holes can be pawed in it. It has "give" unlike concrete. However, the downside is the plugging of the honeycomb cells. I have found the stone grinds to dust and packs with the moisture from organic material and clogs the cells. I have tediously removed this twice in my trials to see "what works..." Currently I'm trying the peafill. I do not use bedding in those stalls to limit the organic material which might bond and clog the cells. I use Slow-Down Feeders which contain most of the hay, so little is left on the floor to eventually clog the cells. (You can google slow-down feeders to find out more. I really like these feeders.)
The stall with mats has bedding on it at times. The Equiterr in this application really just provides a floor with give that will always be flat. I am not getting the benefit of the drainage through the Equiterr because the mats prevent almost all of the liquid (what little there is, she goes outside spring/summer/fall) stays on top of the mat. The horse in this stall tends to paw (does far less on the Equiterr) so that benefit is appealing to me. The horse in this stall routinely uses the stall as a potty during the winter so the organic matter was greater than the other two stalls, so I didn't even try the peafill. Also she seems to be very thinskinned, so I went with mats over the peafill which would be a bit kinder when she lies down.
My next "trial" is to routinely hose down the peafill in warm weather (learned my lesson the hard way not to do this on a warm day in December and freezing temps return in a couple of days...and freeze the whole floor solid until spring...)in hopes of washing organic matter through the Equiterr and down through the stone to prevent clogging. ? We'll see.
These stalls and the accompanying drylots (also Equiterr) are cleaned EVERY DAY so it's not like there is a ton of organic material lying around getting stomped into these cells and clogging...it just doesn't seem to take that much material, add a little moisture, and presto, it's clogged.
Don't know if all this rambling provides any insight for you, but that's my stall flooring story...which appears will be never ending.
I also have pervious concrete in the aisle and washrack area. Pervious concrete has larger aggregate in it and is porous. Water drains through it almost immediately. I assume it would work also in a stall like the asphalt some people use which is mixed with larger aggregate; however, I'm sure the same problem would occur that I'm having--clogging the pervious surface with dust and organic material...so at least the Equiterr has much larger "cells" than pervious concrete or asphalt flooring. I routinely pressure wash and sweep my pervious concrete (once a quarter--again I don't have that many horses tracking up the aisle or boarders dragging in mud on their boots. Just me and the dog.)
I know of no flooring in a stall that doesn't need maintenance. Labor intensive. I really like a t-shirt I saw once, "Horses don't have owners, they have staff."
Good luck with your flooring.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 7:30 am:
Typed a long reply, got a "link appears to be broken" message. I'll try later.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 5:53 pm:
Lets see if this reply gets posted. Hmmm...I did not type the above at 7:30 a.m. Wasn't even up then!
I checked out the Equitter and got a quote. That's not going to happen this year.
I guess anything will clog up eventually, unless it's like a steel grated floor maybe? Not comfy!
I am going to go for comfort first, with drainage an added plus if it happens. I wonder if less gravel of any kind on top on the sand would be the best route to go? Maybe the gravel would just mix in with the sand? And the mix would give it firmness, yet also some give, but not turn it into concrete?
Don't we have any gravel/stone/sand experts on HA?
I will have to ask questions at the place we buy from. Whatever I come up, will have to be inexpensive for now, and if I get a few years out of it, I guess that will be good enough.
Maybe next time the floors need redoing I'll just have A horse, in A stall, instead of 3 or 4 standing in the one stall.
Thanks Vicki for your input.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 22, 2009 - 6:18 pm:
We didn't pay the total price of Equiterr you were probably quoted. We are an excavation/site co, so we do our own work and have our on aggregate which I'm sure makes a big difference on the total price.
Flooring and arena footing have been discussed a lot on HA. Do some searching on the threads. Wonder what peafill and sand would do? Sara Wolff had tons of info. Can you search her posts by name? I'm not too savy with HA just yet. I'm a relatively new member and not too long on knowledge. I mostly read. Whatever you mix, you'll have holes at some point unless you have stone dust/concrete/asphalt... Depends on what your needs/preferences are.
Sounds like you have more horses than I do which stomp the heck out of your stall floors.
Good luck!
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 2:56 pm:
Angie, the short answer is that round rock won't pack and angular stone will. The pea gravel is a great example of the smallest round rock that will not pack, it is considered 100% compacted fill as-is. You could hypothetically put it in under a felt layer, but I would think horse feet would wear through the felt fairly quickly. While it won't compact, the pea gravel will shift under foot a lot. I would think a larger stone size (2" round rock) would work better for what you're thinking, maybe topped with an inch or two of pea gravel for 'cush'.
I personally would opt for rubber mats, though of course they don't drain. Have you had any trouble with odor buildup from having urine draining in the stalls? Or do you have some kind of elaborate drainage system that carries it all out?
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 3:26 pm:
What if you put down equiteer and then attached the stall skins over the top of it? It would drain and be permeable a cushion.
L
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 3:27 pm:
* a permeable cushion
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 3:50 pm:
Leslie you may have hit upon a combo that might be the solution to my Equiterr woes. Hmmmmmm.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 5:31 pm:
Well, that makes sense! Round stones won't pack, angular ones will. Thank you Shannon! No, I don't think the horses will wear through the "felt" from the top, it's wearing through from the edges of the stones under it, it seems. Pretty darn tough stuff.
Life is a whirlwind here lately, let me see if I can get some pictures up in a day or two. The so called felt probably has a different name even, there is grey stuff called felt too. That makes excellant landscaping material! NOTHING grows through it, water soaks in. It's also softer and some people use that for flooring also; I could do that. BUT I think the odor would be a problem with that stuff. I don't notice any smells but only have half doors on the stalls too.
Nothing elaborate! A few feet of sand under the stones. We had to really build up the area to build the barn. I did mix lime in with the sand originally, don't know if it's helping yet.
I may not get to this for a few weeks or month or 2 but want to collect ideas.
Hey Vicki, if nothing else, you GOT a neat idea! Or if you live near a paper mill, I have no doubt what I am using for flooring would be great over your equiterr stuff. You could pressure wash right through it, plus if down tight enough you can scrap it with a shovel.
No mats for my stalls; I don't want to have to buy, store & haul bedding at this time in my life. Maybe some day. They are nice no doubt.
Just remembered a nice barn a friend had before her divorce. Her husband build wooden floors in the stalls, with gaps between the boards. Then he put old conveyor belting on that, crossed the other way. So there was cushioning, and drainage. My only concern was nails coming up, but it seemed to work. I have some of the belting on my aisle in front of my stalls, and an untouched roll from him. Hmmm...maybe if I can talk hubby into trying the same thing, at least in the 2 stalls that are open 24/7..."Honnneeeeyyy....?"
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 9:23 am:
Angie, I don't use bedding in my stalls with the exception of winter in one stall; however, now that the mare in that stall is "trained" to go outside because she doesn't like to potty on the rubber mats--it splashes...I'm hoping she will continue the habit in the winter. I won't put bedding in there unless she starts to potty. My three are never shut in their stalls (unless ill); they always have access to their individual drylots.
but IF I was going to use bedding or feed on the floor, I'm thinking the skin or cloth over the Equiterr flooring might be the ticket! Or at least...the next "trial" to try my patience and pocketbook.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 12:05 pm:
For what it is worth, Angie, the barn where Sparkles is boarded has wooden flooring in the stalls. They do bed (with the wood pellets), although this time of year, she let's it get less and less over the summer as the horses are out 24/7 except during storms. She'll completely strip stalls and refill them once the weather turns. I'm not a huge fan of the pellets ( I think they are less absorbant than shavings), but they work well enough and the horses do lie down comfortably in their stalls at night during the winter when turnout is reduced and they come in at night.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 25, 2009 - 12:29 am:
I have heap of pine needles in front of my stalls and they go to pee there . They even come from their outrun to do their business there .
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 25, 2009 - 5:40 am:
Fame,
We have lots of mess under our Blue Spruce trees. I wonder if my spoiled critters would go on that? We do rake them up anyhow.
I think the pee problem in the stalls would go away if I sold the 2 mares! Or maybe just get rid of the one? And they'd quit having a competition to see who can flood the stall fastest.
FYI, I don't buy this that horses don't like to go where they will get splashed on; never stops my mares. I've even tried putting some of the hay in the toilet spot with Miss Piggy (Gem) goes, and she makes sure she eats the hay first.
Fran,
I sometimes have a bunch of sawdust I use in the stalls. Anytime Brian is building something, I try to save the sawdust.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 25, 2009 - 7:10 am:
My horsekeeping isn't as vast as most folks on HA. My Diva Mare seems to seek out the spot with the least splash more often than not as do the two Geldings. ? She seems pretty darn selective where she puts her feet also. She'll walk around manure and mud where the geldings just stomp right through it. ?
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 25, 2009 - 8:31 am:
Vicki, my mare prefers to go where there's the least amount of splash as well. It's almost a 100% given that I will bring her in from the pasture (the most splash), put her in her stall while I get all the tack/grooming supplies out (medium splash), and only after she is tacked up and being walked around the arena right before I get in the saddle, she will pee (nice sand/rubber mixture, minimal splash). She never does this when I'm riding outdoors...only in the indoor. And if she happens to poop during work, she will always jump over it rather than step through it. I wish, however, that her reluctance to step in the poop also applied to her willingness to roll in it...no hesitation there! . In fact, her willingness to roll in it is in direct proportion to how clean she is...particularly if I'm showing...!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 25, 2009 - 8:39 am:
oops, forgot to respond to Angie...there's a lady at the barn who's husband does wood working and she brings out the sawdust. I like that even less than the wood stove pellets. I think it just makes a soupy mess and doesn't really absorb the puddles. I've asked her not to put it in Sparkles stall. I don't have to clean the stall, but when I've brought her in to ride or for the vet or whatever, I always pick out the stall as a courtesy to the barn owner. I find the sawdust harder to clean up. But that's just me and no one else seems to mind.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 25, 2009 - 12:06 pm:
Fran,
I only put the sawdust in if we are having a really wet & damp spell. I will sprinkle it around, then sweep it up right away.
I use kitty litter on the belts that are in the aisle, they also get slickery when it's extremely damp.
Seems that both rubber and the nylon stuff are not the safest when wet. And it is plenty wet here today! Looks like more rain coming. Oh well, at least it's not the white stuff.
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