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  Discussion on Yet another barefoot journey...Hoof critique 2
Author Message
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 7:54 am:

Here are some more pics from this morning.

I used the riders rasp lightly and it did help round up the edges..flies were pretty bad so will do a little more tonight when they go to sleep!
Before Riders Rasp....

Confirmation pic



Wall Pic


Sole pic




After a couple swipes with Riders Rasp





Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 8:01 am:

If you notice he still has very little wall at the toe, SOOOO at this point would it not be wise to keep more hoof wall all around until he grows some wall there?/???? OR aren't they suppose to have wall touching the ground at the toe??? This has always confused me????
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 8:19 am:

Others may see something different, but I would lay my rasp flat here, a few swipes, and then bevel again just this area. The yellow line on the left is better than my line on the right. It looks high in the picture, and is causing the flares most likely. You can bevel the heel more, like I was being shown in my July 19th post.

This has been the hardest thing for me to get with Tango's hoofs, so don't worry if it's hard for you too see.

I would end up taking the whole heel down most times, instead of just the high spot.

Thanks for starting a part two, I can type again! And I even figured out how to save your picture and mark it in paint, miracles do happen.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 8:26 am:

You are keeping more hoof wall at the toe, beveling it lightly is not taking the toe height down, but is taking pressure off the wall. The hoof sole is meant to have some contact after the wall touches down and expands is my understanding of it. But not walking totally on sole, hence the 1/8" or so of wall height above the sole.

Not to confuddle your mind more, but if you stick a small metal ruler, or your hoof pick in the collaterol grooves, what is the depth at the heel, and at the toe? And laying a rasp across his foot on the walls, at the end of his frog, do you have height there?

Those are things that tell you if the coffin bone is up far enough in the hoof capsule.

Again, this is my understanding of it at this time, based on where I am at in my learning to trim experience. I am sure someone can explain it better and/or correct me.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 8:27 am:

I forgot to add "Good job!"
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 8:56 am:

DianE, thank you for starting this continuation in a fresh thread, and thank you for the photographs to show what you are doing too.

Angie, I apologize for my dense head, and I have a couple of questions for you:

1. "if you stick a small metal ruler, or your hoof pick in the collaterol grooves, what is the depth at the heel, and at the toe?" What do you mean by the toe? Is the point of the frog correlated to the toe?

2. "laying a rasp across his foot on the walls, at the end of his frog, do you have height there?" Are you talking about the frog being high enough to reach the ruler, and to which end of the frog are you referring?

Thanks for putting up with me, this is clearly information that I need to know if I am to be a good "mom" for HairBall.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 10:11 am:

Angie I just figured how to mark pics with paint too...it is SOOOO much fun and can finally circle things I'm trying to describe!

There is one thing that continually bothers me when I see pics of this hoof...I WILL mark it on a pic!!!

His heel looks longer on the right of the picture, isn't that the side that is flared more??
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 10:12 am:

Suzi,

I am not sure how to best answer question number one. I don't remember specifics from the DVDs. It is something I just started doing to give myself some markers to go by.

I know on Tango, there is not enough height at the sole at his toe, and the grooves are very shallow at the front of the frog.

I'll see if I have a picture for number 2.

I apologize for making it confusing! I have a cold/allergy thing going on, and I am so wiped out all I have energy for is reading, or being on the computer.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 10:33 am:

Laying the rasp across at the end of frog. I don't know whose hoof this is; I see depth there though.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 10:41 am:

I do not see enough depth at the end of the frog here, and the col grooves are shallow here. This is Tango's hoof, right front.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 10:59 am:

This isn't from any of my horses but it's a good picture to show where the point of the heel should be, and a nice tight white line all around. Based on the pictures, which PLEASE remember can be misleading, I think Hank's heel point is not far enough back.

If you think one side is higher than the other side, measure from the hair line on the outside of the hoof wall, and measure in the grooves.

Again, it can be misleading to look at pictures, and remember I am not an expert; learning right along with you & Hank.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 11:06 am:

This is an older picture of Gem's hoof. If you & your hoof guy can grasp what is being shown here, I really think Hank will be totally comfortable barefoot forever.

Bars, BEVEL, Heel Point!
B.B.H.P!!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 11:22 am:

Susie, nothing to do with the frog touching the rasp. Methinks a fleshy frog is sometimes natures way of putting more protection between the internal structures and the ground.

The reason we want concavity is because the coffin bone is up in the hoof more then than with a flat sole and shallow colaterol(sp?) grooves.

Diane,

Remember it's taken me over 2 years of hands on and lots of reading and help to even begin to understand some parts of trimming.

You will not mess up by beveling Hank's walls. But you will not see results if you don't keep the quarters down, and the heel points in the right spot. And the bars need to be tweaked to.

A high spot even 1/16" can make a horse uncomfortable.

Every part you tweak affects another part of the hoof.

And even knowing what to do does not mean our hands have the skill do it.

Can you tell I am talking from experience on that last sentence?

Take your time. Mine all need tweaking now, but I need some really good cold medicine before I can tackle that job!

REPEAT after me: LESS IS MORE.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 11:27 am:

Interesting photos and discussions.

Thanks for sharing so we can all learn.

I may break down and get one of those Rider's Rasps myself.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 12:17 pm:

Vicki the riders rasp is a great little tool, you can't take off too much and it rounds the hoof wall nicely. It is great for people like me who can't run a regular rasp and use a farrier, you can keep the hoof wall in nice form between farrier visits. If you had a horse with "normal hooves" I think it could replace the farrier.

I am going to take a closer look tonight, but I do know Hanks hooves land on the outside and roll to the inside...wonder if the farrier is leaving the outside wall too long...I bet he is! How his hooves roll like that has always bothered me...but I haven't been sure where the problem lies...I do have a regular old rasp and will lay it on the hoof wall tonight to see if indeed is his problem! I guess I have been forced into taking things into my own hands a bit.

Angie I have read everything you are saying, I have researched hooves until my eyes are blurry for the last couple of years! I JUST haven't wanted to take this on, but now is good as time as ever since his hooves aren't horrible anymore (thanks to the farrier I might add) but there are some things I don't like!

I'll let you know how the next rasping goes and what the rasp on the hoof wall reveals, if Hank will hold still good enough I will try to get some pics

I find your second to last picture very interesting...something about it don't look right tho...have to think about it!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 1:25 pm:

I don't think I like doing this

We finished up as much as I am going to do at this point, his walls are rounded...he's sound....but the DP's are picking up

Here's after I used the RR I took a little more on the outside walls then the inside.



With rasp across...I can't quite figure out if they look even or not!!!!



In flight he had enough of pictures for the day! I thought it an interesting photo and shows his nice big frog. Interesting enough the roll from outside to inside is gone...how easy was that!

Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 2:09 pm:

BTW that pic I was wondering about... I always thought contracted heels looked like that a bit?

Isn't the WL separated a bit from the sole? or some kind of weird crevice there...
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 3:20 pm:

I hope someone else chimes in here, this is very difficult to explain with pictures. I fought this for a long time because I was afraid I'd lower the heels too much.

The red, in my opinion, is the highest parts of his his hoof wall, with the circles being his heel point. If you take a picture looking straight down from the heel to the toe, and take it so you barely see the sole at all, I bet those are the high spots and they will cause pain; elevated dp and lameness.

I would rasp the way the blue lines show, rasping level, and then bevel the direction the red lines are showing.

When I got the heel point concept Tango quit having DP's all over the place, and quit being gimpy.

Anyone who disagrees or sees something different, or has a better explanation of the "how to" please share, as I must say again; I am not an expert at this.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 3:46 pm:

Hi All,

When I first got into all this barefoot trimming stuff, I first looked into something called Hoof Armour. When I got my first kit they included a video for a very conservative natural trim. One of the tips in that video has helped me determine which side is the high side and what should and should not be trimmed. If the frog looks like its laying over to one side or the other, the high hoof wall is on that side.

Another tip was after you get done, look at the midline between the bulbs when the hoof is on the ground, it should be straight and the heel bulbs should be equal.

Diane, I can't tell from the pics which foot you are trimming and if it is the same foot in all the photos.

If you look at Hank from the front does he come down straight from the shoulders or does he stand wider or narrower when you try and square him up?

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 4:17 pm:

Actually he stands pretty square.

This is the same hoof in all the pictures his LF...RF the cursed one is a little harder to work with...thought I'd start with the easy one first!

Angie believe it or not I have that kind of pic from this morning...before I did anything

Also since Dr.O. is trying to make us scientific I checked Hanks DP's right before the farrier came last night...while his shoes were still on. He had some mild ones going...They have been VERY quiet...BUT just like today it got hot and humid and I wonder if that isn't why they were elevated just a tiny bit....winter woolies are coming on fast and furous and the horses were warm.
He still has them tonight and they are a little more pronounced then last night, but he is moving very well and trotted out for his hay on the hard ground! Cantered up the hill for his ration Balancer...so all is well so far anyway

Here's the pic.... I think his outside wall looks a bit longer(taller)?

Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 5:06 pm:

I think both sides are too high; hard to say if one is higher than the other.

Rachelle,

Good tips. I have to remember that one about the frog laying over to one side. One of Gem's hind hoofs always seems higher on one side and I don't have enough experience to figure out if it's as good as it gets, or if I can make better through trimming. I don't think her hoofs were ever touched until I got her, and she was somewheres between 6 months and a year then.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 6, 2009 - 5:37 pm:

Yes they do look a little high on both sides but I think at this point they are going to be lowered slowly but surely. Normally the farrier would come in and nip that excess wall off...lame,sore horse is the result.. Instead I am going to rasp a little at a time...maybe a daily shave job, that way I can find the comfort level, without him having a barefoot shock...I think it will work as long as I keep it slow but steady.

Susie I also got the travelers rasp and I believe you wanted to know how it worked. It works very nicely and you can take off a little more than with the Riders Rasp...It's a nice compliment to the RR.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Sep 7, 2009 - 4:42 am:

Slow but sure is a great way to go. All I will add is keeping looking at the hoofs from the heel down to the toe, and asking yourself if those sides are too high. See if you can find articles with pictures on the heel point, and pictures showing that nice triangle base at the heels where a horse hoof should be weight bearing.

You could probably bevel with that rasp a couple of times a week, I am not sure how much it takes off. Do it less if you see natural beveling taking place on hard/rocky ground.

I have not looked at my horses hoofs for over 2 weeks. It's very dry right now, and they've been on the track with more movement. I hope I feel up to giving them all a good check and touch up beveling later today. I am very curious to see who things are looking!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Sep 7, 2009 - 2:49 pm:

VERY VERY good news! I rode Hank today and he had no problems at all on any type of footing...Very willing to go and absolutely no ouchiness!

We went on

limestone arena
Packed down hard clay track
paved road
gravel driveway (slowed down a bit, but did fine)

He felt less ouchy barefoot this time then when he had shoes on!

NOW to keep his hooves from getting too long and keep him sound...I'm very thrilled!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 8, 2009 - 2:37 am:

I am thrilled for you and Hank too!

BTW, how old is Hank? Isn't he 14ish? I think you posted his age once.

Keeping on reviewing, keep on tweaking. You will find that what made no sense last week, is crystal clear today, and then something else looms up and you are back in muddy waters, lol!

There is nothing more satisfying, IMHO, than watching my horses move off sound, healthy, and happy knowing I've been responsible for all aspects of keeping them that way...even hoof care!

Now on the flip side, well...lets not go there!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 8, 2009 - 3:22 am:

Angie Hank just turned 12, altho he thinks he is 3!

I'm not going to get too involved in his trimming, but if I can keep them beveled between trimming that would be great. NO more nippers for him either...I think that will make a big difference. With the limestone paddock and arena I think he can keep his hooves fairly well trimmed himself. Extra wall seems like a good idea since no doubt it will be wore down with the hard terrains we ride on and he lives on. I was quite impressed that gravel didn't bring him to his knees as usual...he even avoided that with shoes. He wanted to trot on the pavement, but I didn't let him...need to try to avoid bruising....We are getting there!!!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 8, 2009 - 7:20 am:

I am happy about the good news! I hope you have a lot of good riding weather left this summer. Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Sep 11, 2009 - 7:51 pm:

The farrier was here today and he just did some rasping, Hank walked off sound You guys are SOOOOO smart!

I think his hooves look pretty good
The thing that makes me really happy is his WL in NOT mush anymore and his sole is much harder

Lateral



Front



Wall



Sole



Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 8:24 am:

That IS good news! Keep running that riders rasp over the hoofs now to keep the bevel nice.

2nd to last picture, is that a high spot at about 10 o'clock?

I got everyone tweaked this week, and I held my breath as Tango trotted off. He was sound! And still sound the next day, so maybe Hank and Tango got some ESP thing going, and helped both of us see what needed fixing?

Now we can both go back to riding? Or should I say I can go back to trying to ride, lol!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 8:28 am:

June 21 08' We HAVE come a long way...I believe he had some WLD going on then too. I was trying to find a picture to see the difference in a years time, This was as close as I could get.




Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 9:14 am:

Angie I noticed that in the picture too, I was going to check it out when I fed this morning, but bottle calf was going nuts for her bottle and I forgot! I will check it out later when I go out again. I showed the farrier the riders rasp and he thought it was a very nifty little tool. He said he was going south for a couple mos. this winter (lucky him) so the Riders Rasp will be what I keep Hanks hooves in shape with then. The farrier thought rasping him was a good idea too, lot more work tho, he had a good sweat up when done Now that Hanks hooves are in much better form than they have been in YEARS Rasping hopefully will be all he needs!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 11:23 am:

Good eye Angie, it was higher in that spot, I ran the travelers rasp over it lightly and he is now even...This could be fun!....as long as the farrier does the majority of it

Anyone that is interested in keeping their horses hooves in shape between farrier visits and doesn't want to invest in a stand or use a regular rasp I do want to say these two tools are VERY nice and EASY to handle. I know I have mentioned them before, but now that I have had a little more experience with them, I can say with no doubt they are very handy tools. I should put them in the product reviews I guess

Travelers rasp $10.95...no stand needed.

https://www.bigdweb.com/detail.aspx?id=8023

Riders rasp...a little pricey but does a very nice job of rounding the walls even if you have no idea of what you are doing....like me!
I got mine a little cheaper at Valley Vet
https://www.bigdweb.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=Riders%20rasp&All=True
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 9:58 pm:

Wonderful, Diane.

And thanks for the information about the rasps.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 11:20 pm:

One last collage (for awhile anyway) I find the changes quite amazing. Vicki Z. you were right this started in 2005 a blink in time with hooves!. I don't have pics from then. This is about when I changed farriers and vet....you can see why!

Hanks has gone through a moderate founder 8 degrees rotation...seedy toe...thin soles...abscesses...WLD...long toes...UR heels...well just about anything that can go wrong with a hoof he's had pretty much!

The 1st pic is early 2007....2nd is late 2007...3rd is 2008...last is today and I am thrilled how his hooves look and he is sound! They aren't perfect, but you can see from the before pics why I think they are!



Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 9:25 am:

Much improvement!

If you lay a rasp on the front of his hoof, from the hair line down, I bet you see a nice straight hoof wall, no flare at the toe. That's good!

Not to be picky here, (couldn't sleep last night, no coffee yet!) but if you lay a rasp on the outer wall at the quarters, is there still some flare? I question that because it looks like the wall is flared there, the hair line seems pushed up, and the wavey lines on the hoof show that also. I still think his heel point is off...BUT...he does have pretty upright pasterns normally?

By chance to you have good side picture from years ago, before founder?

If he stands on a solid surface, concrete, board, etc., is there any daylight at the quarters? Where is the weight bearing part of his heel?

He is good now, and I may be off on what I see, but on the other hand, he could be better with attention to the above. I think.

Please don't panic! Just little tweaks maybe! And not right now. Let him wear this trim for a week or so.

FYI, I used to trim, lay on the floor (fun fun) and take pictures, email them to my hoof gal, and I'd be feeling SO PROUD, sure I did everything 110% correct this time on all 4 horses, and she'd email me picture after picture back, with all kinds of things marked I still missed! I wanted to just cry!

I felt like the slowest learner on the planet!

Give Hank a pat from me!

Have a great day!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 10:14 am:

Diane,

I am so proud of you and Hank, his feet look soooo much better. I think what Angie is talking about is what we have discussed before about relieving the quarters, which when the foot lands allows the hoof to expand like its supposed to.

I read your other thread about dry lotting the boys, just be careful that the lack of movement does not take you back to where you do not want to be. I think a lot of the drastic improvement in Hanks feet is because he has lived like a "normal" horse for the past several months. Is there any way you can put a grazing muzzle on the boys and still let them out 24/7.

Again, great job.

Rachelle
New Member:
ddurec

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 10:40 am:

Collateral groove proper depth measurements...
1/2 to 3/4" tip of frog and 1 to 1 1/2" at the heel. According to my training with Arizona Hoof Rehab, the hoof walls should not bear weight. Quarter cracks often occur if wall is not even with the sole. In addition if the wall keeps the frog and sole off the ground, it prevents good blood flow in the hoof to promote a heathly hoof. And never rasp the sole. The sole should be as hard as a rock. The frog is the shock absorber. Angie I hope you don't mind my input and I don't mean to confuse anyone. Just trying to help.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 11:22 am:

caballolovr,

Mind your input?! Thank YOU!! That is a fantastic explanation! Not just of the CG depths, but what good hoof form should be.

I first saw the importance of the depth of the collateral grooves when I watched Pete Ramey's "Under the Horse" DVDs. I've only watched each dvd one time, and wasn't sure how to best explain what he showed. Each of the 10 dvds is about one hour long, and I have pages of notes, but it's no all crystal clear in my mind.

I am looking forward to more posts from you!

And welcome to HA!

Angie
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 1:27 pm:

Welcome to HA cabllolovr, Thanks for your description, and I am very easily confused!

SOOO you guys don't think the hoof wall should play any part in weight bearing????? YIKES. FmE with Hank putting him on his soles = a VERY lame horse!

Seems to me there is a very fine line there...too much hoof wall equals flaring and cracks....not enough equals a lame Hank horse.

I do believe I am capable of relieving the quarters tho. He does always break out at the quarters...so that will be my project this week.

Angie there are many things a little off in his hoof, but as we know the slow but sure method works better than trying to fix everything at once.... As you can see from the collage his heels are coming back...he has lost a MASSIVE amount of toe, the toe dish is finally gone!

He does not really have upright pasterns, but they are long. He still has a stretched WL that is finally shrinking and not full of disease.

If I can get the heels relieved today sometime I will takes a picture...this will be my first attempt at this

Rachelle, I think movement has done Hank a world of good too. I am putting some deep thought into it. He won't move if he has a grazing muzzle on...It paralyzes him. He is moving VERY well, DP's remain quiet, maybe if I start riding him more he could remain on turn out, I have just been letting that STUPID fetlock rest to see if it would go away!!! (it isn't) but it is getting softer. To get down to my arena now Hubby has put in a road for his machine shed..it is big, hard, sharp, septic rock...the only way to get there at this point is to take that road...not so sure his hooves are quite up to that yet!....guess I could take him across the road to the hay field.

Angie here are pics from 2001 and 2002...this is when the barefoot guy was trimming him....exactly the way caballolovr described....he was a freak about going barefoot, keeping the heel and toe back and the frog and sole being weight bearing....did not work with this horse!.....notice he has shoes on.

He adhered to the hoof talk (bergy bergeleen) way of trimming was certified and continually educating himself..Hank frustrated him! He worked wonders on my other horses hooves.
https://www.hooftalk.com/

2001



2002

Member:
leslie1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 1:43 pm:

Hey D
Can you take a side picture from knee to ground?
Cheerios
Leslie
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 2:43 pm:

All,

Let me see if I can explain the weight bearing a little differently than caballolovr because I do not believe that description is quite right.

For a horse with proper concavity, it would be impossible for that horse to not bear some of the weight on his walls, in fact every structure, wall, heels, quarters, frog and sole at some point in ground contact is responsible for some weight bearing. The trick is to not have all of it on the walls at all times as happens when a horse wears shoes.

I am not sure if you can picture this but horses have an inner and outer wall and its the inner wall that gets the weight bearing right at the white line, and the outer wall is what is beveled away from the weight bearing part of the wall.

While the sole plays a part of the weight bearing, it sort of does it at the last moment before the hoof comes off the ground. So, if you were watching in really slow motion you get heel,frog, wall, sole as the hoof lands and expands.

This way the entire hoof acts as a shock absorber and also to pump the blood back up into the horses legs and body.

Rachelle
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 3:10 pm:

Diane,

I really admire that you are (literally) taking this into your own hands to improve things for Hank.

With all of the conditions that you have listed about what Hank has been through with his feet, the farrier care would seem to me to have had to have been lacking over time for some of these things to occur, but can't blame the farriers because that is how most of them were trained to do their job.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 3:57 pm:

The hoof wall expands on contact, and as Rachelle says, the inner hoof wall gets contact first, hence the importance of beveling. And why shoes limit that expansion.

Nope, never totally on the soles! But the most painful thing is having flares not addressed, it's like having your finger nails bent back all the time. (every one try that now, lol!)

I hope you don't "relieve the heels" it isn't the heels that need relief, IMO.

If you can stand Hank on a very solid surface and take a straight on side shot as Leslie suggests, and also

take a picture with the camera right on the ground from the side, so we can see where the hoof is touching the ground.

Yes, it takes time to bring the heels back, and slow and sure is best!

Not to keep going on about Tango, but him and Hank have so much in common..if you could have met the horse I had, BEFORE I grasped this last little "tweaking" concept, and the horse I have now, you'd understand my reason for being passionate about this!

Improvement in soundness, disposition, no more ticklish spots..stood on a barrel above him last night, saddled him FREELY, no lead rope, did trot and canter work in the round pen...and YES, I do credit getting his hoofs the best they can be for right now, as the biggest factor in the improvements!

His hoofs are not perfect yet, but are proof to me, how important the proper form is! Not that anyone is disagreeing with that of course!

I'll try to get a picture up I have in mind, if I can find it.

O.k., off my hay bale now,
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 5:25 pm:

Diane,

Relieving the quarters, is not the same as taking down the heels. When looked at from ground level the quarters should have a slightly scooped out appearance. Just rasp lightly!

Rachelle
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 5:25 pm:

Apparently, horses need relieving "at the quarters" but when the feet are perfectly balanced, the horses do this quite well on their own, even in sandy conditions.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 5:53 pm:

That was just a slip of the fingers ...I meant the quarters. I can picture what to do. I have a sinus headache from He$$ and took a nap instead of working on Hanks hooves.

Rachelle your description makes perfect sense. Hank could not walk around on his soles that's been proven over and over.

Vicki Z. The farrier between the barefoot guy and the one I have now totally trashed his hooves. It was his way or no way....until I started posting pics on here quite awhile back I didn't realize just how bad they were!

I did get the side picture with his knee and also took a video of him walking around the pasture...on CEMENT type ground....this type of ground used to make him ouchy...I believe he appears to be landing slightly heel first? I don't have any cement around here, but I am fairly certain their isn't any light at the quarters. I know now that is why he is always breaking the quarters out, this farrier seems to leave the walls too high there. I am going to fix that!!!

Side view with leg




Walking around video HMMMM it appears the cursed hoof is landing toe first. That boy can't walk a straight line! he's too nosy. He is also on a slight incline...we have NO flat ground here!

https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090913#5381065009257749250
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 13, 2009 - 10:47 pm:

I used the rider rasp on Hanks LF again tonight and actually that one is starting to look pretty good. I haven't been doing anything to the RT front yet, it is a little touchier so want to experiment on the LF until I get the feel for it. I believe he has a little sinking of the CB in RF from his founder. Tomorrow I will "relieve" the quarters a little. I have a decent bevel on it now. Will then move on to the cursed hoof In my poor video I think you can see he is breaking over better on LF....the one I am working on

MAYBE I can take the curse of of the RF!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 15, 2009 - 6:40 am:

I was able to get a ride in last night on Mr. sensitive soles. I haven't rode him since the farrier was here. DP's remain quiet and no heat.

He was a little ouchy when I crossed the blacktop, not bad tho.

He was fine in the hay field, plenty of energy, very willing to go. Gravel driveway was not good, so we stayed off of it other than to cross it.

Fine in the limestone arena, little ouchy on the hard packed, irregular clay "track"....much like cement.

All in all I was pleased, he did have some ouchy moments on certain terrains.

Is it possible to ever get him over this, considering all of his pathologies??? I don't expect him to have gravel crunching hooves, I KNOW that is not possible with him and OK with me, but I would like him to be comfortable on hard ground. He is fine on Hard dirt..such as pasture, and the hay field.

He actually felt OK on the LF, thank goodness or I would have thought maybe it was something I had done....it is the "cursed hoof" he was ouchy on, on the above mentioned terrains. He much preferred going left in the arena, slowed when going right on a circle....could be that RH fetlock thing, going to the right, not sure. He didn't feel lame....just slowed and was not as enthusiastic. I highly suspect the RF, when he had his shoes on going right was a non-issue, so that kinda rules out RH...I would think!

I guess it's time to get some pics of this cursed hoof and see if you guys can help me/him. I would love to get x-rays, but at this time the vet owns Me with all of my problems this year, maybe in a couple weeks.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 15, 2009 - 9:26 am:

Diane,

For all of his life since I got him my old guy Buddy would act like he was going to fall down on account of pain when just leading him across concrete. He would always try to get onto soft surfaces when out on trails. Riding him on any kind of rough surface was very bad for him.

After looking at him for the first time my current farrier did not touch him to trim at all for what was a full trim cycle, although he already had a pretty good idea of what it would take to fix him.

After the very first trim, Buddy was much better, and over time became sound and the best ever since I got him at 8-years of age.

He had been intermittently lame with plenty of pain and suffering for about 12 years -- a pretty extreme case. Other farriers described him as "thin-soled, flat-footed, under-run, contracting heels."

He is great barefoot,(nearly 23 years old) and moves fluidly and is entirely sound on hard surfaces.

It just took the right farrier, but that was the hard part.

He has a whole new attitude toward life since he is comfortable and not experiencing pain and suffering all of the time.

He LOVES my farrier, having been kind of miserable to handle for the other prior farriers, who he could and did not trust to not hurt him.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 15, 2009 - 6:50 pm:

Thanks Vicki, I think this farrier is really getting Hank on the right track, as you can see from my collage above, it's not easy to work with all of Hanks pathologies, especially the founder and some sinking.

I was not discouraged yesterday, just the opposite, he did better than I would have expected, it will take time for his hooves to adjust AND he needs to get some weight off and get back into exercise.

I think he will be just fine...given time.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 16, 2009 - 6:12 pm:

Great news, Diane.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 - 9:34 pm:

Just a little update on Hanks barefoot journey, he is self trimming himself, much of the high hoof wall has disappeared. Actually he is a little short and started to be a bit tender footed not bad tho We still have had NO rain in the last 3+ weeks, out clay ground is very hard. It would seem in the last couple days he has "gotten over it" and moving nicely again. I rode him today and was able to go down that wonderful rock driveway, I didn't ride him down it tho. He did OK!

Moved nicely in the arena, and up on the road...progress is being made!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Sep 21, 2009 - 9:25 am:

Sounds great, Diane. I wish you continued success! Lilo
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Sep 21, 2009 - 10:44 am:

This is great Diane.

Self trimming is exactly what happens out in the wild. The trick is to convert what happens out there into what happens in Hanks normal environment. In an ideal world, the only thing you should have to do to him is make sure he stays beveled, so his walls do not crack and chip and maybe keep an eye on his bars.

When he gets a little ouchie on rocky terrain, think of it like this. If you (as a person) wear shoes all the time, you could walk on rocks and it won't bother you. Take your shoes off and if you walk very slowly, you would be able to walk on the rocks although occasionally you might step on one the wrong way and it would hurt for a moment, but you'd get over it pretty quickly. Now, picture yourself in an environment where you very rarely wear shoes. Your feet would get accustomed to just about any surface given enough time. So I think it goes with horses too.

I am really proud of you for going the barefoot route. Eventually, I think Hank will thank you too.

Rachelle
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Sep 21, 2009 - 4:05 pm:

This sounds great, Diane.

Good input from Rachelle about the process.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Sep 24, 2009 - 7:03 am:

Diane,

I started a discussion with links to hoof videos, and some designs for hay feeders that slow down how fast horses eat. I thought of Hank's hoofs, and all of your horses when I saw the feeders. Interesting concept, looks easy enough to do also.

Here's the link:

And the links I put in the discussion:

https://www.swedishhoofschool.com/Videofilm2.htm

And the slow feeders: https://www.swedishhoofschool.com/feeders.htm

Glad he's doing o.k.!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Sep 24, 2009 - 5:00 pm:

Angie I ran across that website awhile ago They are quite inventive with their feeders! I'm glad Hank is doing well also, since Sam is on lock up, he and the mare get to go out for awhile, I hate having him cooped up all the time and his weight is ok. I haven't been riding much due to time constraints, and figured resting that swollen fetlock for awhile may help it go down (it isn't) Next week when I am off and if the weather co operates I am going to start him back in light work. I would LOVE to do some more at liberty work with him, but am worried he may have a fit and do something to the fetlock...always something...sigh
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 4:58 pm:

Well I can't believe this is coming out of my "mouth" Hank has hooves that can now tolerate gravel AND that big rock hubby had put down for the driveway. We rode right down the middle of it and he didn't miss a step OR try to sidle over to the mud on either side. He used to stop and refuse to cross gravel, because it hurt so much.

Our other driveway is "normal" gravel and he never want to walk across it, he tippy toed and triped. I usually try to avoid it and ride up the yard. He wanted to cross it today! no trips or tippy toeing

I didn't harrow the arena due to laziness and it is pretty cement like at the moment...he didn't care. His canter was very nice too!

I know I couldn't ride him for a long ride down a gravel road YET...but maybe some day.

The key is just rasping (again you guys are so smart!) His hooves have not broke out like I thought they would. I run the Riders Rasp over them a couple times a week and that's it....YEA
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 9:24 am:

Diane, I want to compliment you on the progress you have made with your horses feet, the before and after images are dramatic. And I want to thank those who have helped the advice has been very good as demonstrated by the outcome. For those out there suffering from poor horn and run under heels this discussion should serve as inspiration and instruction on how to do better.
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 9:55 am:

Diane - I think we see another barefoot convert here. I am so happy for you and for Hank. And a compliment from DrO - wow!
Happy riding,
Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 11:15 am:

Thanks Dr.O. Told you you guys were sooo smart! Without the help of Dr.O and the members through out the last couple years I couldn't have done it, and would probably still have an unsound horse. A LONG, very educating journey.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 6:04 pm:

Dr.O. and all the members who have helped me with Hank over the last 4 yrs. or so, from hooves, to training, to owies, to whining!. I just went on the MOST wonderful, BEST ride EVER on my bare foot horse. His beautiful gaits are back and he is not a horned one anymore. His onriness is gone. He is now a calm, compliant, enjoyable horse, with contained energy and SOUND hooves on everything we went on today, Didn't really think this was ever possible...barefoot and good boy.

I wish you all knew how grateful I am...Thank YOU!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 6:12 pm:

Oh, Diane!

I cannot tell you how thrilled I am to hear this wonderful news about your dear Hank!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 6:29 pm:

Diane,

I knew you could do it!! I am so PROUD of you!!

Just remember to never stop learning, keep up with those tweaks, have a critical eye!


I've been on autopilot the last month or 2 myself, and need to get my head back into studying before my horses' hoofs get outa whack. You will always be seeing something new, just to warn you, so don't be surprised or panic. (note to self here, lol!)

Betcha Hank is happy too!

Gee double Ohhh Dee, GOOD JOB!!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 7:12 pm:

Diane,

I am very proud of you and Hank. You both have done a great job!

Rachelle
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 8:59 pm:

GREAT news, Diane! I hope you two have many more wonderful rides.
Member:
marieanh

Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 9:53 pm:

Yeah!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 10:01 pm:

Thanks I don't know if I want to ride him again, I don't think he can top todays ride. I was smiling from ear to ear and he has never heard so many good boys in his life.

I haven't been able to ride him for a couple weeks because it never stops raining! We have been working on a few things and today we did lead changes(on purpose) what fun!

I think his hooves are a big player in his new attitude and willingness, along with our at liberty training. He was supposed to be trimmed by the farrier Thurs. but I called and canceled because it was raining cat and dogs. For the 1st time I wasn't fretting about it, his hooves still look decent after 6 weeks, those quarters didn't bust out this time and his toe isn't terribly long. I have been using the riders rasp a couple times a week (had to order new blades and got the coarser ones haven't tried them out yet) He isn't even flaring

I wanted to ride in the arena 1st and hubby stated I better not let him walk on the new grass we planted, we have managed to rip up some awhile ago when he didn't think walking on those huge rocks was a very good idea. I told hubby I didn't know if I could keep him on those big rocks all the way down to the arena...we marched straight down it and I didn't get yelled at for damaging the precious new grass Guys we are talking septic rock here...Hank can walk on it with out even tripping or tippy toeing!!!

He had such a soft, relaxed eye today. There is a path that runs between 2 corn fields that aren't picked yet it is about 5 foot wide and goes on for a mile or so, I have been eyeballing that thinking it would be a great ride, hubby even asked why I didn't take Hank in there...I mumbled something about dying and left it at that...it would be just the perfect place with that rattling, tasty corn on both side of him to do one of his dreaded leaps through the air and fake spook!

I decided today was the day...we entered the cornfield...and thinking of one of the other posts started bellowing..AYE YAI YAI YAI I am the Frito Bandito We plowed through that path with no hesitation or spookiness. We even did that wonderful canter of his on that path. We made the big loop around and headed for home no prancing, we even stopped on the road and I talked to someone in a car for a few minutes...he didn't even fidget! stood on a loose rein HMMMM.

Once again thank you all for your help and support, It has been our turning point to soundness and a good boy...he even got a treat today...after I put him away I'm still grinning! AND it is nice to post something that isn't a problem for once!
Member:
frances

Posted on Monday, Oct 26, 2009 - 1:21 am:

Oh Diane, I'm smiling from ear to ear too just reading your post! That is amazing and wonderful. Huge congratulations to you!
Member:
erika

Posted on Monday, Oct 26, 2009 - 8:33 pm:

Hee hee! What an image! Great!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Oct 26, 2009 - 9:09 pm:

Haha Diane! It's nice to hear something that isn't a problem! Not that I haven't learned a lot, but I know how great it must be for you to actually be able to actually ride and enjoy Hank for a change!
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 7:17 am:

Keeping my fingers crossed for more good weather and wonderful rides for you, Diane!
Member:
stek

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 1:03 pm:

Diane don't forget that credit goes not only to Hank's improved feet but to your improved horsemanship :-) those horns don't go away on their own!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 2:11 pm:

Diane, great news! And thanks for taking the time to write. Will I ever be able to write a similar glowing report about my gelding, Jose?

Hooves are not a problem with him - prancing and getting nearly out of control on the last home stretch are, unfortunately.

Good luck - and keep up with the liberty training. I do think it plays a big part in the "new" Hank.

Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 6:44 pm:

Thanks guys! Hank got his trim tonight...just a rasping, his hooves look really good, I see a couple things I want to tweak, the farrier was even surprised. He walked off sound and I couldn't stop looking at how good his hooves looked.

This is for you Angie, the farrier and I were discussing how far Hanks hooves had come and how just rasping them seems perfect for him now.

The farrier said this is a case of "less is more" I said EXACTLY and thought of you immediately!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 7:57 pm:

I am happy to know people think of me when they are at the barn, ha ha!

Have to give Pete Ramey credit for the "less is more" comment. It sure does make a difference don't it? Little tweaks and light rasping, quick, painless, and best for the hoofs.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Oct 29, 2009 - 7:53 am:

I wanted to get pics, but it was getting late. There is still one thing that kind of bothers me, a I can't decide if the farrier is doing it or the way Hanks hooves are. IF it isn't raining(doubtful) when I get home I will try to get a picture of it and see what you guys think.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 4, 2009 - 6:35 am:

Dr.O Hank got trimmed last night...his hooves really look awesome now.(Angie and Rachelle you would be proud!)

Question both front whitelines had quite a bit of bruising. Is it possible this bruising is from when he got very sore a couple months ago when I pulled his shoes?? He walked off sound after his trim. The ground will be frozen hard this morning, hopefully he will still be sound
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 4, 2009 - 7:03 am:

Pictures, pictures, pictures please!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 4, 2009 - 8:00 am:

I will try to get some tonight, hopefully I will be home before dark. We are trying to work ahead because of a "major snowstorm" blowing in next week. I was going to take some last night after his trim, but was froze by the time the farrier got done!

He had the nerve to bring in the nippers, thankfully I was watching and said UMMM no nippers on his feet anymore! Was a close call LOL. I couldn't stop looking at his hooves again, never thought his hooves would ever look this good EVER!(not perfect but very good) Again no broken out quarters between trims, a record 2 times in a row!

He was sound this morning on the frozen hard ground No pulses!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Dec 4, 2009 - 8:42 am:

Diane,

I am very, very proud of you!.
As far as the visible bruising goes, I used to worry about that a lot even if my horses were sound, but my trimmer told me that in most cases, it is old and most likely caused by something that may have happened months ago. If your horses feet are healthy ( which it sound like they are), just keep track of what happens with the bruising over the next few trims.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 4, 2009 - 9:28 am:

As usual Rachelle points out the obvious. I used to worry too about any discoloration, especially on light hoofs. My farrier said the same thing, don't worry.

Now, Diane, we need to teach you to R-E-L-A-X with regards to hoofs. (I know I know, I was like that too, and you will get to the point where you quit looking at their hoofs constantly!)

Let's see. Lower you head? Big Breath?! A little lip smacking chewing for you?

(just kidding!)

Very good Diane, I am proud of you too.

Now about this snow storm...hope you keep it there!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 4, 2009 - 9:07 pm:

Hello DianeE,
While I do not know the cause of the bruising I agree with Angie and Rachelle: it is often seen in horses with nonpigmented feet which have no problems or even history of problems.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Dec 5, 2009 - 10:03 am:

The bruising/blood was in his whiteline

Continued
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