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  Discussion on Orphan Problems and Hair Analysis Results - LONG
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New Member:
xl47

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 7:05 pm:

Joy was born Dec 11, 2008 not premature but before we expected her due to bad breeding date estimates made by dam's previous owner. As a result her dam was left on Fescue for perhaps an extra month and a half. We normally remove the mares from pasture and dry lot with 3 months to go before birth. This was the dam's first baby. She did not have any milk whatsoever - not even a hint of a bag. Because she foaled early, she was in dry lot with a seasoned mare who was also due Jan/Feb. When the foal was discovered it was unsure as to who was the dam. We believe the seasoned mare "took" the foal, cleaned her and as a result no bonding took place with her actual dam. Despite putting them side by side in a large barn stall separated only by corral panels (dam kept trying to kick at the foal); Dam would not accept foal. Vet did not recommend domperidone treatments for the mare and so the foal was given roughly a pint of actual mare's Colostrum (previously frozen) via tubing approximately 8 to 10 hours after birth in addition to the other basic foal measures including some antibiotics. She was subsequently bucket fed Foal Lac for the next 4 months at the rates recommended by the manufacturer with the eventual addition of Mare and Foal grains and Alfalfa/Timothy chopped hay.

She seemed fairly healthy if a bit small. She had plenty of energy and a great appetite with the exception of it taking an extremely long time to get her to eat grains. While she was never "normal" in regards to her stool she was not too far off the mark until we weaned her and put her on grass. At this point she developed stool that had the texture of Cow Patties and soon after weaning began to appear shaggy.

She had been on a worming schedule but on advice from other horse owners, I began a bi-weekly worming regimen in an attempt to get her hair to shed properly and also address what seemed to be the beginnings of a hay belly.

Discussions and examinations by our vet had him doing stool samples and blood samples checking for various ailments that might cause her symptoms. They all came back negative for whatever he was looking for. The only thing I remember him specifying was checking for Coccidi. We also have chickens. But that was negative. He did put her on an EPM drench in the case that she was positive for the Coccidi but she had a very strong negative reaction to the medicine so with vet's approval we took her off that medicine after 4 days.

He also put her on a supplement called Succeed fearing our worming (the bi-weekly course) may have caused stomach distress. She did not see any improvement whatsoever in her stool as a result of this daily supplement so I discontinued after 30 days of treatment.

At approximately 6 months of age She developed a cough and began to lose weight and still would not completely shed out. We wormed with Strongid but subsequently learned the culprit might be lung worms - which causes a cough. Our treatment was to worm with Quest in case of lung worms since we keep a donkey on the premises. It was only 4 days after we had wormed with strongid but after reading about the damage lung worms can do, we were afraid NOT to treat for them. This did seem to cure the cough and help with body condition but her stool was still loose and the texture of cow patty.

At this point she is on pasture and grains. We reintroduced the timothy/alfalfa mixture to her feeding regimen and also added mixed grass hay to supplement a heavily grazed pasture. This is what we are still doing. Her body condition is much improved but she still has the stool issue and she is also not in the body condition that I would like her to be going into Winter. She does seem to have more energy and we have noticed her running and kicking at least some where she never did this before.

I had a hair analysis done from Uckele and have the results. I am unsure how to interpret the data and have an appointment to discuss the results with a Uckele nutritionist next week. My worry is for a potential conflict of interest in interpretation of the results since Uckele does sell the products they tell me would help the conditions in my foal.

I am unsure how to proceed to get my foal healthy. Based on the Aluminum and Lithium levels I am worried that our water supply may be tainted. We use a water well and water our animals off that same well. It is filtered and purified coming into the house - which is the water I used to make her formula. It is not filtered coming out of the hose we use to water the animals. Speaking with a Uckele rep because I was worried there was something I should do quickly I was more confused. I asked about the aluminum and was told it was probably not my water because aluminum is in everything including the air and we breathe it. I asked if Aluminum wasn't a heavy metal and was told that yes it was. My common sense tells me it should not linger in breathable air to the point it would cause huge levels in my foal but I am not certain as I have not completed any research on the topic. I was also told it builds up but then I pointed out the foal was only 9 months old and the was told it could be passed from the Dam. So, I don't know what to think. Keeping in mind this was not the trained nutritionist I spoke with. I don't know if she had any credible knowledge or not. but it is my hope to get an outside view of this story and these results and perhaps some suggestions as to other remedies I could try. I have the feeling the combination of minerals recommended to treat Joy's condition is going to be cost prohibitive for me as I estimate it to potentially be $300 - $500 per month.

--------------------------
Relevant dates/events:

Born 12/11/08- Tubed/colostrum, Joint antibiotic shot, left two more to give and Gentocin

12/12/08 Tribrissen antibiotic paste once per day till gone.

1/5/09 Wormed Pyrantel Pamote - 300 pound dose.

1/8/09 MeDrOzel - Antibiotic

3/9/09 Wormed Pyrantel pamote - 300 pound dose.

5/4/09 Wormed - Strongid - 300 pound dose.

5/18/09 Wormed - Safeguard - 300 pound dose.

6/9/09 Start supplement Succeed and Antibiotic Powder Doxycycline (attempt to treat loose stools I had forgotten about) Stopped treatment just over a month later on 7/13/09 with no change in condition.

7/21/09 Wormed with Strongid - 300 pound dose. She had been coughing. Start EPM Drench 5% 1 time per day over feed.

7/25/09 Wormed with Quest due to increased coughing - 300 pound dose. Stopped EPM drench due to extreme lethargy and change in disposition.
-----------------

I apologize for the length of this query but I wanted to be as thorough as I could in background information. I am scanning the results and attaching them to this message and also have several pictures of the foal at the following link. The last picture for september illustrates a behavior I'm not sure how to stop where she sucks her tongue for several minutes after eating. It seems to be more emotional than anything else but I worry it may lead to cribbing or wind sucking. I'm not certain. https://www.crookedcreekrcc.com/joy.html
Any help you could offer would be greatly appreciated.


Robyn


I tried to post a pic of the test results but it is too large. I will attempt to resize and add it later. There is a copy of it at the bottom of the pictures in the link I posted.
Member:
erika

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 7:52 pm:

Hi Robyn, and welcome to HA. She is a cute filly. In the last September photo--is that another foal of the same age behind her or an adult horse? I am asking so as to compare body conditions.

One question that occurred to me was why didn't you use ivermectin to worm the filly? I have of heard resistance issues with pyrantel (of which Safeguard is the same). It seems that you saw improvement with the Quest, which is what "turned on the lightbulb" for me. From what I know, ivermectin is safe for foals and might give a better result. Quest is less resistance-prone, too, but I don't know the margin of safety in young foals.

Just my two cents worth.

Also, as a student of geology a hundred years ago, your vet is correct that aluminum is extremely abundant in the environment (although not in the air, as far as I know, unless in the form of rock dust) and unlikely to be a problem for horses or any other creature.

Best of luck with her,
Erika
New Member:
xl47

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 10:15 pm:

Hi Erika and thank you for the welcome. The horse in the last picture is actually a long yearling (May) but she is fairly short. She is not likely to mature to much over 14 - 14.2 hands. She is currently around 13.1 hands. The black horse in one of the pictures is a weanling and is actually a month younger than Joy! He's 13 hands tall now at 8 months old.

I used the wormer my vet recommends for babies in this area. I think it's because of round worms but I'm not certain. I did not know as much about wormers then and I should have alternated with Ivermectin. By the time I did use the quest, she was around 7 months old. It did make a difference but she still has the cow patty poop problem. I'm still trying to research all the other mineral results so that I know what questions to ask during my consultation next week. Thanks for your input!

Robyn
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 10:57 pm:

Hi Robyn welcome to HA hopefully Dr.O. will have some ideas for you.

As I was reading this it reminded me of our orphan calf we are feeding. She grinds her teeth and this weekend got diahreha. Of course calves and foals are different, but the thought ran through my mind if this was a foal I would suspect ulcers. Your foal has had quite a bit of antibiotics through it's life and de-worming, could her gut flora be off? I would think it would be stressful for a new born to be a orphan to begin with

We treated our calf with sulfa and she is getting better, but she is different than the ones with mothers. I wonder if trying to treat her with gastro-guard for awhile might help her. Thought I'd throw that out there to add to your confusion
New Member:
xl47

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 7:44 am:

Hi Diane,

I forgot to add that we have given her courses of pro-bios many many times throughout this process. Even it does not make a dent in the consistency of her stool since weaning.

The Succeed supplement we used for 30 days is an ulcer type treatment but it made absolutely no difference as well. Really, nothing we've done has made a difference in her stool and she seems to have reached the limit of bulk that we can add as well. Thanks for the input. I do appreciate any and all ideas to consider. I'm glad it worked for your calf.

Robyn
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 8:30 am:

I'm not sure, but I think the only way to treat ulcers is with gastro guard. Not saying that is your horses problem, but with all the stress and meds she had as a young one I would wonder.

I am interested in Dr.O's take on hair analysis, I didn't think it was real accurate from anything I have read. Wouldn't blood tests be more accurate as to what her mineral/vitamin needs are if anything is lacking or in abundance? Very curious Hope you get it figured out!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 9:18 am:

Welcome Robyn,
There appear to be two issues here, your foals problem and the hair analysis results. Let’s start with the hair analysis issue.

This is a oft discussed issue on these boards (search on hair analysis minerals) and I have had several problems with hair analysis for minerals services as described by members in the past. First they use a set of normals that are much more restrictive than the small amount of testing that has been done on healthy horses would indicate. Second the lack of correlation between the supposed toxicity and the clinical signs displayed. Here we have to back up a bit in that there was in the 90's a report of 6 horses all from the same area with inflammatory bowel disease which on necropsy was found to have tissues with higher concentrations of aluminum than expected. However this event has never repeated itself and there is much speculation on what the relation between the bowel disease and exposure to aluminum. There are no other published reports (at least in PubMed) of toxicity in horses. I do seem to remember a case of toxicity in livestock that was next to a industrial plant that spewed out large quantities of aluminum which contaminated the pastures. Signs of toxicity where bone problems, which is more typically what is seen in humans.

As others have stated aluminum is one of the most abundant substances on the earth. It is ubiquitous in our diet and water supplies. It does not evaporate into the air so the only way you could inhale it would be as a solid (dust) carried by the wind. It is in high concentrations in many medicines, some designed to treat inflammatory bowel disorders. In spite of all this there are some conditions under which humans can be poisoned. Normally the large amounts of aluminum ingested and absorbed into our blood is excreted by the kidneys. Humans with impaired kidney function and whose dialysate contains aluminum have developed aluminum toxicity that mainly is characterized by bone disorders.

I can find no examples of any species being poisoned by ingestion of natural sources of lithium.

So can your foal be suffering from aluminum / lithium toxicity? It seems very unlikely but to be thorough what were the results from your hair analysis?

Now concerning your foals ill health, let me be sure I understand your post before I begin: the foal, though smaller than expected, is in good health and good condition at this time yet has "cow patty" stools? Is this correct?
DrO
New Member:
xl47

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 3:15 pm:

Hi Dr. O and thank you for your response and the information on aluminum/lithium. You are correct in that the foal is mostly healthy other than the stools. Or at least she seems healthy. I would like her to have a bit more bulk than she has and can't seem to get her past her current weight which seems "thin" to me and others. Her back bone is sloped rather than being flat and her ribs do show though you can feel flesh on them - an improvement from before. Since none of the other measures we have tried has solved the problem, we did the hair analysis in an attempt to diagnose the stool problem and perhaps other issues that might exist. I am going to try to upload the results again to this website. I had to reduce it to 80% so I'm not certain it will be readable.

The first box - Nutrient Minerals Joy's readings from left to right (red box) are as follows: (it would not space correctly so I used bold on every other number to differentiate.

138 18.3 28 98 0.6 13 37 13.7

1.021 0.11 0.07 0.46 0.017 0.004 3410


Her readings in the Toxic Minerals box are - Left to right:

n/a 0.0007 0.02 << << 0.003 << 11.4


Additional Minerals, L-R:

0.07 0.15 0.014


Key Ratios - L-R:

3.73 0.29 1.41 21.67 1.53 7.54 22.83



Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 24, 2009 - 9:44 am:

Robyn, I cannot read the above in my laptop but once I get to my office this morning it may be readable in my large monitor. The numbers I need are the aluminum and lithium values. Be sure to include the units and the normal value.
DrO
New Member:
xl47

Posted on Thursday, Sep 24, 2009 - 4:18 pm:

Hi Dr. O,

All the numbers are measured as Mg/100g

The Aluminum is:

Normal/limit = 1.5
Joy = 11.4

Lithium:

Normal/limit = 0.008
Joy = 0.014


Other things that look very high on the charts for joy are the following:

Potassium:
Normal/midpoint = 45
Joy = 98

Iron:
Normal/midpoint= 5.5
Joy = 13.7

Manganese:
Normal/midpoint = 0.5
Joy = 1.021

Cobalt:

Normal/midpoint = 0.01
Joy= 0.017


Some low points for Joy are as follows:

Magnesium:
Normal/midpoint = 50
Joy = 18.3

Cooper:
Normal/Midpoint = 1.6
Joy = 0.6

Molybdneum:
Normal/midpoint = 0.015
Joy = 0.004

Selenium:
Normal/midpoint = 0.14
Joy = 0.07


Calcium:
Normal/midpoint = 200
Joy = 138
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 25, 2009 - 8:40 am:

Let's start with aluminum. Normal values for horse hair content is considered 64.5 (+/- 77) micrograms/gram (J Vet Med Sci. 2002 Jul;64(7):607-10). This means the average found in the normal horses surveyed was 64.5 and 95% of the normal horses lie between 0 and 151.5 ug/gm. We should note aluminum values were not affected by sex or age in this study.

Your values are 11.4 mg / 100g. If we divide your horses value by 100 to convert to "per gram" then multiply by 1000 to convert to the numerator to micrograms we can compare values.... this is the same as multiplying your result by 10...so your value is 114 ug/gm.

This is well within the 95% confidence level of the normal range. I don't see anything else significant in your other values either Robyn.
DrO
Member:
xl47

Posted on Friday, Sep 25, 2009 - 4:02 pm:

Where does that leave me with her stool problem? I don't know what else to try. Another person has suggested getting her off Purina feeds and begin to feed oats. I have not had time to research oats yet and so do not know how to feed them or at what rate or whether or not they have enough nutrition combined with good quality hay to keep my horses healthy. At this point I am at a total loss as to what to do to get my foal healthy and beefed up for the coming winter. I had hoped the hair analysis would tell me at least where improvements could be made.

What about the Lithium count? That was very high too. I don't even know where she would get something like that.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Sep 25, 2009 - 6:04 pm:

Robyn,

I do not remember seeing what Purina feeds you are feeding, but with all the stuff this poor baby has had, maybe you need to go back to basics. Sometimes, in order to get one's gut to "straighten out" less is more. She just may need a break to give her insides a chance to heal (if in fact healing is whats needed). Her gut may be working overtime to process everything she is getting.

So, I would wean her off of all grain and switch her to a forage product that has all the vitamins and minerals she needs. I feed Triple Crown Safe Starch forage which is basically a complete forage product with no molasses, vitamins and minerals and stuff for her tummy ( pro-biotics and pre-biotics. If you have an Agway near you this is one of the products they sell. Switch gradually, by decreasing the grain and adding the different forage to the forage you are feeding now. See how she handles it and then keep going until you get her completely switched over. The switching process can take up to 3 weeks because you want to do it as gradually as possible to not upset her system more.

Both my yearling and my aged racehorse are on the Triple Crown Safe starch forage, both are on pasture. I never had a problem with the yearlings stools, but the racemare always had loose stools until recently when I switched her to the Safestarch. She has been very 'normal' even on race days when she usually had diarhea from all her nerves.

Good Luck with your baby and I hope you get this sorted out

Rachelle
Member:
juliem

Posted on Friday, Sep 25, 2009 - 6:39 pm:

Robyn, Having also been through worrying about the color and consistency of a foals stool, I can tell you what I've done. I've syringed with yogurt, with pepto bismal, I've given pro biotics, and I've done a course of "Sand Clear" which is a product to remove sand from the gut. In my experience, I had success of one degree or another with all of the above. Now that is not to say I wouldn't have had success if I hadn't done anything! Your foal looks healthy and on the lean side. I have one now that is too fat and I think lean is healthier. I know how the "new foal synDrOme" can worry you, but if I could give you advice, I would say take a deep breath, simplify her feeding with just good quality hay and a vitamin mineral supplement fed as per the directions for a weanling/yearling and try not to worry too much. I don't think your area has severe winters and she will likely winter just fine.
I also have two hardship weanlings that were weaned early after very poor--almost non-existant mare nutrition. They are quite small and have moderate pot bellies, but are thriving now. I wormed them at first as Dr. O suggests for debilitated horses and now every thirty days. If my experience last year with a weanling in worse shape holds, they will look pretty darn good a yearlings. My point is that except for the annoying runny poop, your filly is likely fine. The loose stools may or may not continue despite treatment if the experience of many on this board is any indication. Anyway, deep breath.........
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Sep 26, 2009 - 1:04 pm:

Robyn, no one has studied lithium values because there are no known issues of toxicity with naturally occurring lithium. Lithium is given as a medication to humans and sometimes overdose occurs (neurological problems) with inappropriate dosing. I have no reason to believe you have administered toxic amounts of lithium to your horse and otherwise this is a problem for your horse.

Though I see nothing in your values that concern me the problem with hair analysis for mineral intake is much more fundamental. Scientific work studying the use of hair analysis for evaluating intake shows in the majority of cases there is very poor correlation between the results and nutritional/toxic status of the horse. But you don't need to take my word for it, taken from Lon Lewis Equine Clinical Nutrition (pg 443) "Unfortunately, except for excess selenium, and possibly some heavy metal toxicosis (mercury, lead, arsenic, and cadmium), the results of hair analysis give no indication of an excess or deficiency of other nutrients."

The first thing I would do about the loose stools is quit worrying too much about them. Some horses just have loose stools without any adverse consequences, many such cases go away on there own particularly when folks quit messing around with the foal's diet and stabilizes it to a regular diet.

We do list a number of empirical treatments that have worked for some horses for undiagnosed diarrhea at Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview. But I want to emphasize that a change in diet almost always causes some stool looseness so try the various recommendations slowly, give them at least 3 weeks to work.
DrO
Member:
xl47

Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 8:26 pm:

Thank you Dr. O. for all the good information. Thanks to everyone else too. I am known as a worry wart but I just want to make sure we give our little orphan every chance we can at being healthy. I do plan to do more research on feeds and natural alternative that will still yield the proper nutrition. And other than being on the thin side and the stool problem, she does seem healthy. I will also check out the treatments in the section you listed on GI tract and see if there are other remedies I have not tried yet. Thanks again. This is a nice forum!
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 6:06 pm:

Robyn, just one last thing: in my experience it is harder to get weight on a horse/foal when they are less relaxed. An orphan might perhaps grow less easy due to the stress of being without a dam. That will take time and the sooner she lives with friends and can lead a normal socialized horselife the better[also if you worry about cribbing fi.] Feeding a growing foal hard to get her in a bit better condition has it risks to, perhaps as long as she seems healthy just accept her condition and be patient is a solution.
I have had quite a few foals with problems and they often took a year longer to develop[I raised Warmbloods so instead of starting at 3 start them at 4 years of age] but as long as they didn't get fat and got a balanced menu they got there!
Also given her history and seeing the pics I think you have already done well.
Good luck with her!
Jos
Member:
xl47

Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 7:08 am:

Thanks Jos. She has been pastured with another weanling and a yearling since weaning but she is still stressed. She is, of course, low on the pecking order but none of the others are super mean to her; just more dominant. I had thought that since Joy never had a dam for even a few minutes, she would be less stressed but I don't know if it works that way. She has always seemed ok mentally as far as I can determine. She is a very sweet foal and I think we did pretty good with her socialization so that she isn't extremely spoiled and bratty. I was really worried about that aspect because she was so small compared to everyone else but it seems to have worked out ok. She, at least knows how to be a horse and not a human..lol.. Thank you for sharing your experience and for the encouragement! I am going to try to update a month or two after I get her on a different feeding program. I still haven't had time to research the alternatives available in my area.



Robyn
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 11:05 am:

I will be very interested to see how she grows up!
Please keep us posted.
Jos
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