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Discussion on Feed a balancer
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 9:46 am:
My friend sent me this website (https://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/index.html)that has information on feeding. Most of which is exactly what you say Dr O. I have a few questions. They recommend feeding a "balancer" which is basically a 32% protein vitamin enriched supplement and no grain unless necessary. My question is is the 32% protein content ok? Especially for my pony? Asfall has come my pasture is not luscious anymore my horses coats and hooves are not ideal. My hay is medium to high quality fescue. My 3 horses of concern are my older horses ages 18-22. They are all on Equine Senior, but the recommended amount to feed my 1700lb horse Moose is 24lbs a day (with 30lbs of hay)...which is nuts...he would be obese. So really he's not getting the nutrition needed because he only gets about 6 lbs a day.
My friend started it a few months ago and feeds only that with hay and has had great results.
They also recommend feeding black oil sunflower seeds too???
Wondering what your thoughts are Dr.O?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 10:21 am:
Melissa, not Dr.O. but I switched my horses from safechoice to Buckeyes ration balancer this summer and have been very happy with the results. Most ration balancers come in a 12% and 32% version. I chose the 32% because my horses get OK grass hay. Most ration balancers are fed at 1# per #1000 of horse to meet requirements. My smaller horses get #.75 of the ration balancer. Hank gets the full pound. My horses as you know are easy keepers tho, I don't know if you need a concentrate to keep weight on?
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 10:37 am:
Melissa, Of course you are right to question 24lbs of supplement. That does sound excessive.
I can't speak to the %, let Dr O do that. It does appear like a lot unless your horses are in heavy work.
Do you mean Moose is only geting 6# of balancer or 6#of hay? This is in addition to daily pasture?
How long has it been since you have noticed a decline in hair and hoove condition?
I am wondering because I think a change in coat quality can be noticed in a short time, but because hooves grow slowly what you see now is a result of feed/conditions from a few months ago.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 10:38 am:
Thanks Diane. I only have one that may need extra calories in the winter, my TB. I would do the 32% too because of my hay. In the spring they do fine with just the pasture. I can't see overloading them with grain to keep the weight on if its not necessary.
My pony is a 12.3h and fat on air, so maybe #.50lbs for her. Ever heard of the black oil sunflower seeds?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 10:51 am:
I have heard of people feeding BOSS, I never have. I think that is more to get oil in them and add gloss to coats. I don't know why, but I was always afraid of colic with BOSS. I have fed flax before, but that seemed to pile on the pounds and is expensive.
Why do you want to add BOSS, for their coats?
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Member:
aletao
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 11:12 am:
I was reading about BOSS a few years ago. One woman on a Yahoo! horse nutrition board warned people about the pesticide residue on the BOSS shells. Just an idea...
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 11:22 am:
Lori, Moose gets 6# of equine senior grain (2x3#meals) and unlimited hay in the late fall/winter (pasture in spring and summer with 2x2# equine senior meals). Equine senior recommends 24# of grain daily with 30# of hay. I have noticed the hoof/coat decline slowly in the past 2-3 weeks. Which the pasture has declined over the past month and most of the forage is from hay now. Their weight is good, but they are all a little hefty - about 6's and the pony a solid 7 (and she's in a grazing muzzle 24/7). Nothing has changed in their diets except the pasture decline and adding hay. Both of which, I'm assuming, are just lacking in essential nutrients.
Diane,
That website says the BOSS is for adding fat and good for the coat. I don't plan on adding it unless people think its beneficial. I just thought it was a strange thing to feed horses.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 11:59 am:
Melissa, I fed BOSS for a short time. Sorry that I did not save the source, but when I read that the omega 6 content can have an inflammatory effect, I fed the rest to the birds. True or not, why risk it.
Sounds to me as if they are getting plenty of calories, and still need some nutrients. Have you thought about cutting back on the fescue and offering some alfalfa? Of course, your pony does not need that, but alfalfa pellets could address that issue. Just a thought.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 12:23 pm:
Melissa, you got me wondering so had to go read the fats and nutrition articles I guess it was time for a review again!
My take on it is if your horses are in good weight why add fat? Also in the fats article it discusses poor coat and the some of the reasons for it other than fat...with low protein being one. Then again it says good quality Fescue has adequate protein...what a puzzle for you?? My hay is mostly timothy and my horses had been showing signs of protein deficiency by eating poop and strange things. Hank and his mother have always had a beautiful shiny coat, but it was getting a little dull looking for him early this summer. His shine came back with the addition of the ration balancer, his hooves seem less brittle ect.
This is a picture of him after a roll in the mud and a good start on his winter coat. He looks dappled and shiny....maybe I should become a Ration balancer salesperson
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 1:00 pm:
My friends swears by it now too! I think I'm going to give it a shot, my only concern was the protein even though that is what they need. Hank looks great! I can't get Buckeye close to me, we have Purina, Nutrena and Triple Crown. Any thought on the best one?
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 1:55 pm:
Melissa, Purina has a supplement called Enrich 32 (also comes in 12 or 16 percent protein). It's great for my easy keepers as it's meant for horses on moderate quality hay that don't need much extra feed. As Diane says, one pound a day for my 1000# gelding, 1/2 pound for my shetland pony. About a pound plus for my weanlings. It's supposed to contain the needed nutrients at that rate. Works great for me and they like it, but mine will eat anything once they get used to it.
BTW Diane, Hank looks wonderful!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 2:12 pm:
Melissa choose for yourself
https://horse.purinamills.com/products/Enrich32.asp
https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/30feeding.php
The thing I like about Buckeye and Purina is they are low starch/sugar formula with guaranteed NSC's I don't see that on the triple crown and I also see Triple Crown has cane molasses...not good for MY horses, but every one's situation is different.
Thanks Julie, Hank Has really come around with my total change in management
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 7:40 pm:
Well ladies I've been following this discussion. Spent a couple of hours online reading about ration balancers late this morning. Located a spread sheet, cannot remember where now, but Buckeye came out on top by a hair over Purina. Like Diane, I'm after the low starch/sugar. Sheet compared Buckeye, Purina, Triple Crown, ADM Alliance, Progressive, and something else. I should be a better HA person and copied the address so anyone could check it out. Perhaps I'll find it again? Anyway, DrOve the 70 mi round trip to the nearest Buckeye dealer this afternoon. Lovely drive down the interstate in the sunshine.
Diane, I paid close to $30 w/ tax for a 50# bag of Gro' and Win Grass Mix 32%.
I don't feed near the recommended amount of Purina Strategy, so my four-legged friends weren't getting their full nutrients. My hay is pretty good, but...
Everyone cleaned up his/her ration this evening.
Diane, do you feed 1x or 2x a day w/ the ration balancer?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 8:08 pm:
Vicki, expensive stuff isn't it, but if you figure you only have to feed a pound or less it isn't really as bad as one may think, compared to feeding 6-8 pounds or better of other feeds to get the same requirements. I also DrOpped all supplements when starting the RB, so actually I am money ahead. I think I paid around $28 with tax last time, like you I have to drive about half an hour, so I load up while there! A bag lasts my 3 about a month.
I feed mine half in the morning and half at night with a handful of soaked alfalfa/Timothy pellets. They are spoiled and expect their "feed" twice a day, doesn't amount to much but they sure enjoy it!
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 9:10 pm:
is the calf manna for horses considered a ration balancer? cuz thats what ive been using
l
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 9:11 pm:
Mine are used to 2x a day also so I'll split it. The Haflinger boys were so excited to get pelleted feed... Maybe their coats will look better. I paid $28.95 + 7% sales tax.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 9:40 pm:
I went out and bought the Purina Enrich 32 today ($24.99 w/o tax) and started it. I'm going to have to find a Buckeye Dealer. I think there is one about 45 minutes from me. I use to buy their Ultimate Finish fat supplement until I moved to NC, it was great! Diane, how long does it store for?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 10:02 pm:
Sounds like you got a better price on the Purina Melissa!
Diane, maybe you should be a Buckeye salesperson after all?
Since I'm hijacking Melissa's discussion, do you all feed loose salt or salt block? From what I read here at HA, I should be giving 2 oz per horse per day loose salt. Wonder how that would taste on the Buckeye RB?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 10:04 pm:
Leslie, I think calf manna is for many species not just geared for horses BUT it is a very similar to ration balancers. I actually did give it to my horses a few years ago when I saw in here it was a good source of protein. I was considering it again before I discovered we actually had a Buckeye dealer around here. I was looking at the calf Manna tag at the store, corn and molasses was listed pretty high in the ingredient list on the bag, so came home and researched it a little and believe I found the NSC's to be around 27%, too high for my easy keepers and Hank don't need any added rocket fuel! so decided against it. When I fed it before at recommended dosage they also seemed to gain weight. If you don't have to worry about fat horses IMHO is it is a good supplement.
Melissa I buy 2 bags, which last 2 mos. I keep it in my basement in a plastic tub and have had no problems. I suppose it would depend on where and how you keep it. My basement doesn't get hot, humid, or cold.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 10:19 pm:
I keep mine in the tack room which is heated although I keep it about 50. I use a 55 gal plastic barrel which has an air tight lid. The plastic rimmed lid goes on and then a metal band over it which has a spring type lever to crank it tight. The metal band is cupped so it covers the "crack" between the lid and the barrel. (we have about 100 of these which we have found many uses for! They were originally used to store alloy which had to have air tight containers as moisture was a big no no for the alloy. So I thought it sounded great as a feed container. Of course it was thoroughly cleaned first.) I still leave the feed in its original bag inside the container and roll the bag shut also. I've never had feed spoil.
Maybe I can work with Diane. She can sell the RB and I'll sell the container...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 10:20 pm:
GEEES Vicki didn't you get the buckeye harvest salt while you were there
I put the harvest salt in a mineral feeder free choice, they also have a salt and mineral block available. My horses don't like salt added to their feed. I think Dr.O. stated that the one thing horses will seek out is salt and will "eat/lick" what they need. I just cover all the bases
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 10:25 pm:
Diane I have used salt licks/blocks and the silly Haflingers will bite it and eat it until it is gone. Same for the mineral blocks. They know no moderation. I really think they are goats. I have loose mineral salt but not the harvest salt! Jeez, didn't even look at that!!!!
I read the nutrition articles and the Haffies are the exception to the rule... Usually I feed the salt separate, but I might try it on the RB tomorrow...the Haffies will eat anything.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 11:32 pm:
Hello Melissa,
Concerning the lbs of Equine Senior recommended on the bag those numbers represent the feed when fed as the only source of food. Otherwise follow the recommendations in the Golden Rule on how much concentrate to feed.
A proper equine diet should have about 10 to 12 percent protein total for maintenance. So the protein content of the rest of your foodstuffs determines how much protein needs to be supplemented. A 32 or 100% for that matter would be fine if it balances the total diet to within the desired range. Medium to high quality fescue hay cut recently and properly stored should have adequate protein and should not need protein supplementation for maintenance.
You should not confuse protein supplementation with the use of a complete feed. If a horse is requiring 2 or 3 lbs of complete feed to maintain proper condition this will not be replaceable with 1 lb of protein supplement. You have to consider calories, vitamins, and minerals too. When protein supplementation is needed I prefer alfalfa, it is relatively cheap and a very good overall foodstuff for horses. However your horses condition suggest if you just add alfalfa your horses will become obese. If you deem your horses need protein consider substituting it for some of the hay and perhaps decreasing the complete feed also until your horses conditions improve somewhat.
Evaluating the hay, balancing the protein, and how to feed concentrate is all covered in the article on Feeding Overview.
DrO
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 12:40 am:
Dr O,
I did an feeding evaluation on the Purina web site regarding my draft cross Moose with his weight-about 1800lbs, age-18, etc. It says he needs 29,300 calories a day and it said that 30lbs of hay gives him 24,000 calories which they say leaves him needing 20.8 lbs of the equine senior feed. CRAZY!!! I have had him on 4-6# daily of Equine Senior for 3 years and he does great with it. Except since moving here to NC in the winters. The last 2 years I did add Alfalfa cubes and he did great with that, they are just a pain to soak during the week when I'm working and on a time restraint. As far as alfalfa hay, it's difficult because my TB mare is allergic and my pony doesn't need it. So...I was hoping this would do the trick.
Vicki, I use a mineral salt block for all of my horses except Moose who gets loose salts in his feed with a splash of oil to make it stick (he hates it but eats it). He won't touch a salt block.
Diane, what is harvest salt?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 5:53 am:
Melissa, I think what Dr.O. is saying is you are trading DOWN calories. 1# ration Balancer, tho nutrient dense with protein is not going to keep WEIGHT on as well as 3#'s of senior. It CAN be added to regular rations, such as senior or something like the ultimate finish if Moose is a harder keeper in the winter. My horses don't tolerate alfalfa well either, I figured out I could buy about 5 bales of alfalfa a month to equal the cost of the RB. My horses woof down alfalfa and start turning their noses up a bit at the grass hay when they get a taste of the good stuff
We have pretty rough winters, but my horses are easy keepers so no concentrate works well for them. I also worried about protein,vit. and minerals, since I buy OK hay for the fatties. Like you I am rushed at feed time(especially with the short daylight in the winter mos.) and try to keep it simple. Since mine are fed together I'm pretty sure Hank would get the majority of alfalfa if I fed any. The RB works well for ME.
Harvest salt is a mineral salt fed free choice. It is on the buckeye website.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 8:17 am:
Melissa when you say a splash of oil, what kind of oil?
Diane, mine are easy keepers like yours so I jumped on your RB wagon. Everyone is just a bit chubbier than what I'd like the past 60 days. But I don't like the Haffie's coats. They just look like something is missing. However, no scientific basis for this assumption of course. Just seems like they are eating poo, wood, leaves, etc. when they didn't before. And they absolutely wolf their food down. I have plenty of alfalfa bales (for the elk) and when I give a bit of that, the Haffies go into orbit. Such chomping and slobbering and haste to gulp it down... I think the mare looks at them in disgust with their eating habits. hahahaha.
Some of my grass hay is great, some of it is ok. And dare I say...which "cutting" as well as how long it laid in the field before baling affects how good the hay is. I try to keep "good" and "not so good" separate so I can feed some of both and give them more to chew on. It is unrealistic for me to get hay tested. Wonder how many people actually test hay? How much does it cost? I'll have to google it. I'll bet PU tests. Hmmm.
Thanks Melissa for letting me hijack your discussion. Let us know how Moose does this winter.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 8:46 am:
That makes sense Diane. I'm going to play with it for a while to get the right mix. All my horses are so different. For my pony who is fat on air I think it will be perfect alone, Emmy will still need extra calories I'm sure, Moose is a pretty easy keeper with his weight considering his size. Last night I just added it to their regular food (except the pony who got only the balancer), this morning I cut them back to their Spring/Summer amounts and added the RB and I will keep it like that and watch. I have a 4th horse which is the one that I ride daily and I'm not sure if I should change anything for her. I add rice bran to her diet in the winter and that works for her. She's young (5), maybe that's the difference.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 8:53 am:
Vicki, just a splash of veggie oil, like a tablespoon, just to make the salt stick to the grain. I use to have Moose on an iron supplement (redcell) which was a liquid and that worked. I took him off that after reading the info on here about the over diagnosis or iron deficiencies. Needless to say...he was no different without it. Then I had to find something to make the salt stick and the oil worked well.
As far as the ration balancer...come spring that is all they will get with their pasture because they really don't need the calories that time of year.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 9:44 am:
Vicki IMHO I think Ration Balancers are a very good solution for those of us with easy keepers or metabolic horses. I never could figure out how to get their protein up without adding a lot of calories or alfalfa. The RB let me eliminate a vit/min. supplement and the horses don't eat poop anymore They were especially enthralled with the cows/calves poop...which incidentally are fed a high protein supplement.
It has really simplified my feeding regimen and I don't have to think about what to give to who.
The horses coats look really great, even sam's yak hair is shiny and he had dapples...have you ever seen dappled yak hair
My hay is stemmy, but good quality grass hay, perfect for the fat ones so I can keep hay in front of them when it is 50 below zero. Alfalfa disappears in 2 bites! I actually like my horses to slowly DrOp weight over the winter so they aren't so prone to laminitis and can graze in the summer instead of being locked up. Since getting rid of the clover and keeping their BCS at 6 or under this is working!
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 9:50 am:
I with you Diane. I like mine to loose a little in the winter for the same reason. The RB should be great because they won't loose nutrition! I'm looking forward to furry horses with shine!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 10:16 am:
Hi everyone,
I've been reading this with interest and done some searching to see what is available near me. Seems only Purina is in this area. I don't think my hay is the best; some is good, some seems to be so-so.
Some questions:
Diane,
What in your opinion, is the biggest difference between feeding the balancer, and when you were feeding Sho Glo? You were worried about not enough protein? I am still feeding that, in a handful of "grain" currently the cheapest Tractor Supply carries. I figure for savings on the bag of grain, vs Safe Choice, and taking into account I am not feeding enough to add "carbs" it's o.k. to feed the basic grain stuff. No one needs to put on weight.
Are all of you just feeding the hay out in piles, or in the stalls? I ask because it seems so many of your horses are easy keepers.
Don't know if you all saw the "Making tracks, My Paddock Paradise" thread, or the links to the Swedish feeders; just some other ideas to help keep weight off and keep horses happy.
I am feeding the same amount of hay I've always fed this time of year, and I am pretty sure the geldings lost weight!
I'll update that discussion.
DrO,
How worried should we be about Adult horses not getting enough protein? In the wild, no one is adding alfalfa or ration balancers to their diets, do wild horses get enough protein from winter grasses? And how would that be different from hay?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 10:32 am:
Angie, sometimes I feed hay in the dry lot attached to the stalls and other times I use the slow-down feeders in the stalls. However, the horses are never shut in. They always have access to the dry lot. The Haflingers have a common dry lot, so I use the feeders more routinely with them because 1) they eat too fast, 2) Windy is a bigger glutton than Shorty and eats more than his fair share. I'm not sure I understand the connection between where the hay is fed and being an easy keeper?
I will look at the Swedish feeders; I don't know what they are.
The Paddock Paradise concept isn't a good option for me at this time.
According to my farrier and vet, Haflingers are the easiest keepers in their practices. My QH is an easy keeper as well, but she doesn't balloon on air the way the Haffies do. So, I was worried about all of them receiving proper nutrition since it doesn't take much for them to get heavier than what I'd like.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 10:48 am:
Angie you KNOW mine are easy keepers! They are once again out 24/7, I throw their hay all over the place Unless it is very windy, then I feed inside.
Yes one of the main reasons is the protein, PLUS the ration balancer is to do just what it says, it balances the forage you are using, while alfalfa can run high in some things and grass lower in some things it just makes it easier, and hopefully close to what the needed nutrients are. I'm sure regular vit/min supplement would suffice, I just like how it is geared towards the forage you are using to "balance". I may not be necessary at all! For my horses I feel it is because they are normally on low rations due to their easy keeping abilities...even when Hank is worked.
I have their weight, BCS about where I want them now, and want them to DrOp SLOWLY over the winter to a BCS of 4-5 when they emerge from the winter woolies next spring, sure helps to keep the laminitis at bay. In the process of doing this their nutrients lack especially protein, if I go by their nasty habits in the winter!
SOOO Free choice stemmy hay to keep them occupied and warm, ration Balancer to keep up nutrients and protein... No rocket fuel for Hank
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 10:55 am:
I found the link about the Swedish feeders. I had read that discussion before, just failed to remember it was "Swedish".
According to the Swedish information I am using my feeders incorrectly, because they are used to serve portions and are not full 24/7.
The holes in my feeders are smaller than their hooves, but I don't think they are as small as 2x2" as recommended in the Swedish info. The holes in my feeders are round and the manufacturer does not recommend holes smaller than a horse's hoof; however, I went slightly smaller and the Haffies seem to cope just fine.
I believe Windy, the glutton, would stand with his head in the hay or graze 24/7 if allowed. Several years ago I tried 24/7 turnout with him and I could not get it to work. I also have tried round bales with nets and I could not get that to work either. He chewed/tore the nets apart. He was obese in no time. He has wheat straw to chew on 24/7 if he is off pasture and done with his hay.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 11:02 am:
Vicki, my neighbor had a halflinger, such a nice boy. She didn't heed the vets warning and kept giving him sweet feed,carrots,sugar cubes ect. and pasture..that poor pony was 13hh and weighed more than Hank at his fattest!!(not kidding either). She put him down due to unrelenting founder and out of control IR this year along with here mini(same situation).
You are a good owner to be concerned and watch those fat ponies. No one could get it through her head including the vet.... she won't have him anymore because he told her they were too fat. I hope the RB works for you!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 11:26 am:
Vicki,
I just wondered if they were eating head in the hay in one spot, or moving around more. It sounds like you are doing what you can in your situation. I updated my paddock paradise discussion; too bad that isn't an option for you right now. I'd love to hear if someone gets good results with those lovable Haffies loosing weight on a track.
Something I forgot to say when I updated that was it is very important to just "sprinkle" the hay around. So horses get a very sparse bite as they keep moving. Seems to be what the feeders are trying to mimic, just without the movement.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 11:30 am:
Thanks Diane,
Being mine are not in the "easy keeper" category as much as yours, I think I will be o.k. with the Sho Glo. I could do the Purina Ration balancer in the winter, and the Sho Glo in the summer when on pasture. That would be a good compromise. As long as they get their selenium I am happy!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 11:34 am:
Diane I try to be a good "mom"...wish I could give the Haffies their total freedom 24/7, but they can't have it on grass. Dry lot, but not grass! They are amazingly flexible and bow so deep to slide their heads under a fence to nip an extra blade of grass. I have hot braided rope on the stall dry lots fencing so they don't push the whole darn fence over. They do get a Blue Ridge cookie treat about three/four times a week. But grain? Ha. They haven't had grain in five years. They couldn't believe their good fortune yesterday when they received the ration balancer!
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 11:41 am:
Melissa,
I am wondering what method you used to calculate Mooses weight?
Personally I know several horses over 17 hands and one over 18, he is not a draft cross-warmblood.
ne is a draft cross, he is 17.2, very muscular and very heavy draft build, he is 1700lbs on a scale.
The others are in the 1500 lb range.
Is your primary concern that your horses aren't getting enough protein or enough vitamin/minerals or carbs?
I have heard the term nutrient used interchangeable to mean all three or either one.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 11:44 am:
Angie we must have cross posted. I didn't see yours to me until I posted to Diane. Three years ago I fenced narrow parts of the water ways on our farm which is a little like the Paddock Paradise thinking...long narrow tracks. The grass is just too lush. They stand in one spot and Hoover it down to the dirt and don't move enough. So I was back basically to dry lot "waterways" which caused problems as the waterways are not supposed to be bare...erosion and all. Perhaps I should read more on the Paddock Paradise to be better informed, but it looked like more work (at first glance) than what I can accommodate and the husband wouldn't be too happy with a lot of time given to fence moving even if I did it all. Probably stuck in the "livestock" mentality of keeping the elk, cows, hogs, etc.!
It's a never ending battle it seems to provide as much freedom as possible, as much grazing as possible, etc. and not compromise health and not turn the horse keeping into a full time job when I'm not a commercial enterprise!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 1:25 pm:
Vicki,
One of my concerns about the paddock paradise concept was if it was going to be a lot of work. The couple in Jackson's book use a tractor to scrape the track. Don't own a tractor here, so I was concerned about how the grass was going to grow, or not. Or would I have to kill it off? Luckily I have 4 horses and the pasture I did the track in is only about 1 1/3 acres.
I won't be moving the fence, but I do have to micro manage with putting horses on pasture, and back on the track, during grazing season. Not sure if that is any different than letting them out to graze for a few hours and dry lotting them daily?
I guess I could add more "track" and move the fence, but I don't plan on moving the fence. More inner tracks in other pastures maybe.
I wonder, did you make the tracks too wide, or do you just have too many acres of pasture that the horses did not eat it down ever?
What?! You mean horse keeping isn't a full time job? Can I live the farm for more than a few hours? (When we do leave for a day, the horses get LOTS of extra hay...have to be sure they are taken care of ya know!)
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 3:06 pm:
Lori,
Moose was weighed at the vet 3 years ago and weighed in at 1778. The vet guessed 1500lbs before weighting him. He a bit chubbier now, maybe a little less muscular. I'm guessing his weight is still about that. He wears a 90" blanket.
My concern is his coat and hoof condition have gotten not so great. Not bad by any means, just not as good. I'm trying to catch it quick. The only thing it could be is the nutrient/protein change going from the rich pastures to fall pasture and hay. He'll be on complete hay here in a week or two when I close my last pasture and I want to supplement something now. My horses have free range of the pastures (I alternate which ones) and their stalls, where I keep hay if they want it. I only keep hay in their stalls in the late fall and winter. When I close the last pasture I keep hay in their stalls and put it all over in the dry lot that I keep open for them.
Dr. O,
My fescue is first cut and a bit stemy, I panicked that with the DrOught I had in the summer that there would be no 2nd cutting (not the case). It's nice hay, just stemy. I keep it in my hay loft so it is stored well.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 3:33 pm:
Angie, the "track" in the waterways was probably wider than 20' however, they just don't move forward enough to graze. Unlike the QHs I have had who nibble, move, nibble, move, etc. The Haffies camp out in a spot and eat it bare then take the minimum # of steps to graze again. There is no moseying around. When they are turned "loose" they run like maniacs and make 1-3 laps around the pasture like nuts and then make a sudden stop, head down, and that is it. I watched them once for hours and they never lifted their Hoover faces off the ground and they eat ferociously as if there will not be a bite left if they don't hurry. Stuff their cheeks like a sugar addict in front of cupcakes... And on the lead they are always very aware of the luscious green grass just out of their reach and I can see it tortures the little pigs not to have a bite. A track like yours and they would have eaten until it was all gone and they were ready to explode and die. Two years ago (maybe 3?) a worker mistakenly left an entire wagon load of wheat straw within their reach. They pulled every bale they could off the wagon and ate it. There was baling wire all over the place. (lucky no accidents there) Windy even stood on a wagon tire so he could reach father onto the wagon--it's the only way he could have reached so far. AND they had a round bale of hay! They polished the entire round bale off in a week and I don't know how many bales of straw. I was gone for a week and oh my. I thought for sure there would be founder. Their bellies actually swung from side to side they were so big. They looked full term pregnant. They didn't look they felt bad. In fact they were quite pleased with themselves. Even then, they still ate at a fast pace. Surely not all Haflingers are like these two. Actually Windy is the culprit and Shorty follows.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 3:58 pm:
I don't think it is just halflingers unless mine have some in them Some horse are just hogs! I own 3 myself at least all 3 are easykeepers so it makes it easier as far as diets. I guess I would rather have them that way, then not eating enough, at least I can control the little hogs a little.
Angie when mine are getting decent pasture, I cut the RB down a little, nothings written in stone that they have to have the full dosage. Now that the pasture is gone and they are on mostly stemmy hay they are getting full rations again.
WOW Melissa I see why you call moose...moose he's a big boy. He must be of the easy keeping tribe too if all he gets is 6#'s of hay and some senior!
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 7:06 pm:
Moose is a big boy! He doesn't look like it though, the vet was shocked. Just solid I guess. Amazing I use to jump him, 4 ft one time! We only trail ride once or twice a week now.
He gets unlimited access to hay and 6#'s of equine senior in the fall/winter, not 6#'s of hay...he's not that easy! . He eats about 30#'s of hay daily when no pasture is available.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 9:44 pm:
Melissa,
while I can't post to what you have read, your figures of how many calories the Equine Senior has in it appear to be off by a factor of 10. Not looking up its number most unimproved concentrates contain about 1.7 MCals per lb. With the added oil I suspect Equine Senior is a bit higher. If your horse needs 5300 (5.3 MCals) Calories from the concentrate he will need around 3 lbs daily.
But there is an equally big error in your reasoning here when it comes to calculating energy content in the feed. Horses caloric needs are very variable even controlling for weight, age, exercise, etc.... Horses have a wide range of metabolisms that make such number figuring a very rough estimate. This is useful when putting together a starting diet on a horse with a unknown history. You have historical information about your horse that that should allow you to fairly precisely peg your horses diet.
You stated in your first post your hay was medium to high quality. Certainly a stemmy fescue hay might need a protein supplement.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 5:56 am:
Dr.O. or anyone that knows how to figure this out.
IF your horse is a getting a stemmy hay that is 8% protein and nothing else. The horse weighs say #1000. HOW do you calculate how much protein to add to bring it up to say 12% per total diet???
My foggy brain just can't figure that out for some reason...plus very bad at math
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 6:13 am:
Now 3#'s make sense. I have been feeding him the same for the 5 yrs I have had him. I received an email about a feeding trail for Equine Senior and I filled out all of his info and they sent me a form stating I should be feeding 20.8#'s along with the 30#'s of hay. I've never thought about the calorie thing, like you said I judged it all for myself.
Some of the bales are real stemmy and some not to bad. Not as nice as I would like.
Thanks Dr O.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 8:42 am:
And Diane how does the individual horse's metabolism and his work load figure in the math equation? LOL I'll never figure it out.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 8:51 am:
Diane,
Do I understand correctly that once you increased the protein in your horses diet they quit eating poop?
Were they also wood chewers? Did that habit stop as well?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 2:22 pm:
Lets's see if I am allowed to post yet
Lori, YES they did stop eating poop with the addition of extra protein. Never chew wood tho...they aren't locked in and have very little wood to chew if they wanted to.
I found the formula for figuring total protein in the grains section
SOOOOOO
IF
wgt of Concentrate = 1#
Protein in C =32%
wgt of forage = 12#'s
P in forage= 8%
HELP!!
THEN WHAT??? How do you figure total protein then??? any mathematicians here??
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 2:24 pm:
It won't let me post the formula for some reason so you have to look it up yourselves If I don't add the formula I can post!
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Member:
aletao
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 2:51 pm:
The way to figure out how much feed to give based on what is called a Pearson Square. Let me try to work this problem out:
8% CP (crude protein) from hay
32% CP from supplement
12% desired CP percentage
8 20
12
32 4
Okay -- let me try this...on top, the hay is being represented with the "8". Take the amount provided on the left (8 on top for hay, 32 on bottom for the supplement), and subtract DIAGONALLY from the desired amount of CP (12) in the center.
8 20
12
32 4
You get 20 on top and 4 on the bottom. This represents a ratio of parts to feed. To convert to a percent, or an amount that can make sense, divide the part over whole (there are 24 parts in the whole here). Convert your answer into percent by multiplying by 100.
8 20 20/24 = .83 * 100 = 83% hay
12
32 4 4/20 =.17*100 = 17% supplement
So, if a 1000 pound horse needs 25 pounds (assuming 2.5% body weight); 25 * .83 = 20.75 pounds of hay and 25 * .17 = 4.25 pounds of supplement.
If you want to read on this instead of trying my attempt here, go to this link: https://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01618.html or run a search on Pearson Square.
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Member:
aletao
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 2:53 pm:
OH NO!!!!!
I hit "post" instead of cancel!
When I reviewed the post, I saw that it took out the spaces that made up my "square" in the Pearson Square.
TRY TO IGNORE THE LAST POST with the exception of the link.
I really didn't intend to confuse anyone. Sorry...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 4:04 pm:
Thanks Aleta..I HATE math, I did look up that square thing...thanks. I still can't make heads or tails of it...but it would appear I THINK with the rations listed above I wouldn't hit 12%????
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 4:38 pm:
OK something simpler for anyone interested in figuring TP in their horses diet. Even I could figure it out with this!
If your horse is eating 5 pounds of 10% crude protein grain and 15 pounds of grass hay that has tested at 6% crude protein, you need to do some math. Five pounds of grain times 10% equals 50; 15 pounds of hay times 6% equals 90. Add those together and you get 140 units of protein per day. Now add the total weight of the feed per day, 5 pounds and 15 pounds and you get 20 pounds per day. Divide the feed weight into the protein units (20 divided into 140) and you get 7% protein in the horse’s diet.
SOOO if we go by my feed from the post above it hits 9.6% total protein HMMMMM.
Sorry 9.8%
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 5:26 pm:
ok, so how would you know how much of 32%balancer to add to bring the total protein up to your desired percent?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 5:40 pm:
UGGHH Lori MATH. I guess it depends on the hay rations, but if the hay was kept at 12#'s
2#'s of 32% RB would bring me up to 12.3 TP Assuming the hay is 8% of course....I have a feeling mine isn't even that good I'm close I guess, I think I may up the RB a little when snow hits the ground and they have absolutely no pickens'
From Dr.O.'s article
Horse care giver's tend to forget that the TOTAL dietary need for protein in an adult, nonpregnant, non lactating horse's diet is 10% to 12%
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 7:23 pm:
Oh boy. I was up at 2:20 this morning and am just now "done" for the day, so my brain is numb and with my middle-aged ADD, no way I'll understand the mathematical gymnastics. I'll try tomorrow! thanks for looking it up girls.
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Member:
aletao
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 9:11 pm:
Diane,
Your math is just fine in the post above -- When plugging in a 10% grain and a 6% hay, you'd end up feeding 25% in the grain and 75% in the hay to get a 7% protein value overall. That would be one part grain to every 3 parts of hay.
As far as my original post and your question about the amounts not reaching 12%... why not? There's the hay at 8% and the RB at 32%. If you feed a combination of the two, you'll need more of the hay (closer to the target of 12%) than the RB, which is much further from the target of 12%. If you had even amounts of this hay and RB, you would have the average of the amounts, which would be 20% protein ( 8+ 32 = 40....40 * 50% - 20).
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 9:28 pm:
Aleta My head is spinning with numbers! I see what you mean from your post above... I didn't consider you were averaging the 2, which of course I'm not in my feeding I feed 1 pound of RB to 12 pounds of hay in my "diet"
Anyway I am now totally confused and am in the process of starting a different thread so as not to interrupt Melissa's any further
Maybe you know the answer!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 3:19 pm:
If you guys click on the link in my post above do you get an error message??? I'm trying to figure out if these problems are me or the board?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 8:04 am:
Diane whether this is corrupted on the site or in your browser is not answered by whether the above link works. If the above link is corrupted by your browser it will be corrupted when you copy and paste it here too. If you will look at the source of the above code it is not the same as what is displayed above. If you can point us to the link where you copied the above link from we can determine whether it is corrupted on the board or not simply by clicking on it on the site.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 9:48 am:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/350179.html
Thanks Dr.O. I copy and pasted it again and a different link came up! They both were from the Figuring Total protein link. I think my computer is testing me!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 5:38 pm:
After checking in town today, seems there are no ration balancers to be found near by. I did want to try the Purina stuff. TSC has Purina now, but not everything.
So Sho Glo for now, for my herd.
When you all get the math figured out, let me know, lol!
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