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Discussion on Figuring total protein in a diet
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 9:27 pm:
Dr.O I didn't want to interrupt Melissas thread anymore. I am really scratching my head on this or I am missing the very obvious math formula which wouldn't surprise me!
I found this about how to figure total protein...I KNEW it was too easy.
If your horse is eating 5 pounds of 10% crude protein grain and 15 pounds of grass hay that has tested at 6% crude protein, you need to do some math. Five pounds of grain times 10% equals 50; 15 pounds of hay times 6% equals 90. Add those together and you get 140 units of protein per day. Now add the total weight of the feed per day, 5 pounds and 15 pounds and you get 20 pounds per day. Divide the feed weight into the protein units (20 divided into 140) and you get 7% protein in the horse’s diet.
I figured IF my horse were getting 12#'s of 8% protein hay and 1# of 32% protein supplement their TP would = 9.6%
SOOO I have been playing around with the figures and tried 5#'s of 8% hay and 1 pound of 32% P supplement and the total protein comes to 12%.
WELL That makes sense I suppose in a mathematical way since you are feeding less of the low protein forage it is going to bring the average up.
Somethings missing here! If I feed less hay and keep the P supplement the same their TP will be higher
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 9:57 pm:
Must be the time change, I think I have figured it out in my deranged mind
If I feed less hay the TP would be higher, but the forage would not be enough???
Let's see if I have this right now...you start with how many pounds of forage you feed and go from there....soooo if I feed 5#'s of 8% forage say in the summer, along with the 1lb of 32% Protein supp and they are in good condition then that average of 12 TP is OK.
Then in the winter they get 12#'s of 8% hay and 1lbs. of Protein which = 9.8% TP Even tho they are getting more to eat HMMMMM
NAWWW I still don't get it Better go sleep on it like Vicki!
Thanks
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 10:24 am:
Diane,
I can't wait to see how this plays out, lol! I had asked DrO in the previous discussion if we need to be concerned about protien deficiencies in adult horses. Now I may end up with a way to figure it out..maybe?!
I hate numbers too. You don't want to be here when the checkbook don't balance!!
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 11:06 am:
all this protein talk has got me thinking.
Just how important is one or two percent of protein either way?
If a horse had a, say, two percent protein low diet over a period of years would there be signs we could see?
How low would the protein need to be before signs were visible?
Conversely, what about too much protein?
How would a horse handle a very high protein diet?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 2:45 pm:
Lori there is information about Protein in a few of the articles that ans. those questions
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/5196.html
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/7069.html
It's kind of scattered all over, basically low protein can show in the coat, hooves ect....Like people I suppose...eating poop!
Too much protein tends to be excreted with no detrimental effects.
I had a post in here a few years ago asking why my horses were eating poop, they were on a diet then (as always) and their hay quality stemmy, but nice. Dr.O. said sometimes horses with low protein will eat poop. I added protein to their diet and it stopped in a few days.
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/127452.html
NOW HOW to figure total protein!
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Member:
aletao
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 7:00 am:
One MAJOR consideration when talking about protein is the amino acid profile or quality of the protein that is being fed. Being that the "crude protein" value is derived from the nitrogen content in a feed, it is hard to estimate how good a protein is based off of the crude protein numeric value.
If you feed a "high end" feed, or maybe even work with a mill, you'll know what sources are used for protein. For example, soybean meal is a good source of protein for horses. Cottonseed meal is great for ruminants, but not for horses.
Remember that the body breaks proteins back down into amino acids and then re-builds specific proteins from this "pool" of amino acids. When one of these amino acids is deficient, the protein production (if it requires that amino acid) would stop. All other amino acids not used in protein production will be passed out the body.
So, when one feeds a low quality protein...and even lots of it, the horse will excrete the nitrogen from these amino acids, and produce that famous (infamous?) ammonia smell in their stalls. The ammonia smell will also come from excess protein. And...that ammonia smell will be most pronounced in poor stall cleaning situations.
So...moral of this post: not all protein is usable...there's more than just a number to take into consideration.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 7:58 am:
Thanks Aleta you are correct. The ration balancer uses soybean meal for it's ingredient with extra lysine. I don't have an ammonia smell in the lean-to where they pee, I DID when they were on the clover pasture...maybe they were excreting the extra protein then, they never stopped peeing! I thought maybe it was from the added MG., but quite possible it was the extra protein as I eliminated them both at the same time. The urinating did go back to normal then.
I still don't quite get total Protein, it would appear the more hay I feed the lower the TP goes(assuming I use 1# of RB)...The less hay I feed the total protein goes up...YET they are getting more food. That's the part I can't quite wrap my brain around
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 8:04 am:
Hi Diane,
The math teacher in me couldn't let this go.
"If your horse is eating 5 pounds of 10% crude protein grain and 15 pounds of grass hay that has tested at 6% crude protein,
Five pounds of grain times 10% equals 50;15 pounds of hay times 6% equals 90. Add those together and you get 140 units of protein per day."
Close but not quite.
5lbs grain at 10% crude protein means you are feeding 0.5 lbs crude protein in the grain. (5x0.10)
15lbs grass at 6% crude protein means you are feeding another 0.9 lbs in crude protein from the hay. (15x0.06)
Total is 0.5+0.9 = 1.4 lbs of crude protein in a day.
This equates to over all 1.4 out of 20lbs total feed is crude protein, (do 1.4 / 20) and you get 0.07, which is 7% overall crude protein in his diet.
And, as Aleta says, these are Crude Protein values. There is nothing to say that this protein is even useful to the horse.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 8:19 am:
Hello All,
I disagree with the idea that it is hard to judge protein suitability by crude protein values of typical horse feedstuffs. Alets's point's that lead her to this conclusion are absolutely true:
1) Crude protein is not a direct measure of actual protein.
2) Amino acid profile completely effects the quality of the protein.
But the conclusion ignores the fact that these numbers were derived on these typical feedstuffs using crude protein values. As long as you are feeding "typical horse feedstuffs" these factors of nonprotein nitrogen and amino acid imbalance are built into the tables. And if you remain skeptical mull this over: good horsemen where feeding horses well 1000's of years before anyone knew what a protein was.
As to the other questions on protein including a formula you will find them answered either in this article or Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Grains and Concentrates for Horses, an Overview.
DrO
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Member:
aletao
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 8:53 am:
Wouldn't the CP value be elevated from amino acids would not be utilized in the absence of crucial limiting amino acids, such as lysine, methionine, and threonine? It's not just non protein nitrogen and non-typical horse feeds that would affect this number.
I, personally, am not wound up all that tight over protein content, as I know that a good quality forage will take care of maintenance horse's energy and protein needs.
To your comment about horses being fed (feeding themselves!) for 1000's of years... does this dismiss the need to understand what protein to feed and in what amount?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 10:48 am:
Aleta, What a great discussion. I think it gets to the heart of a common, I would even say universal, misconception: a nutritionist with a calculator and a bunch of tests would be a better horse feeder than a experienced horse person.
Concerning your first point I address this in my previous post.
Concerning does this dismiss the importance of understanding about good nutrition? Of course not. The better we understand nutrition the better the novel choices we can make without making mistakes. It means that we can experiment with novel feeding regimens with fewer errors.
However, history clearly shows us that horses can be fed well without knowing anything about the nutrient profiles of the foodstuffs being fed. But it is not a logical argument that dismisses the idea it is essential to understand protein metabolism to properly feed horses. It is an observable fact. We can find written examples and pictures of healthy appearing and acting horses fed by man throughout the history of horsemanship. The ability to look at the horse and know something is not right and to look at the feed and assess it's quality remain the crux of good horsemanship.
My point is that CP can be a useful method for choosing foodstuffs despite the limitations you correctly outline. The reason is that the problems you list are already built into the feeding recommendation tables for horses. When we say horses need 10% CP in the diet this is not a calculated value this is a observation: horses fed commonly available forages and concentrates with these values will do well.
I agree with you that digestible protein is a more useful measure. Knowing what the perfect amino acid balance for the horse is and what is the aa balance of a particular feed will further improve our ability to estimate before feeding what the effect might be on protein metabolism. We may even one day know enough to reverse engineer a diet from the nutritional requirements of horses and knowing the exact nutrients available in a foodstuff. But that is a long way off. For the foreseeable future feeding horses well will depend mainly on the lessons learned through trial and error by folks who did not have a clue what a amino acid was.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 4:04 pm:
I do worry about protein a bit, I know my hay is not what would be considered good. It is stemmy and cut after heading out. It is the kind of hay I NEED to feed my horses to keep the weight in a normal range. They get NO concentrate.
With the addition of the Ration Balancer which is 32% protein, their hooves AND hair look much better, they also seem to have better attitudes, which of course could be coincidence.
As you know I have struggled with these easy keepers to keep their weight out of the obese category and in doing so, I am sure they have to be lacking in Protein, and maybe a few other things. They can not be fed much good quality hay, so I go for the stemmy stuff to keep the "scratch factor" and boredom at bay. I am very pleased with the results at this point, but judging from a few things I think their protein lacks. As an owner for many many years I can tell usually. I've owned these 3 horse I have now for over 20 yrs, and Hank since birth. Of course they aren't going to die if their protein is off, but I would like to get it as close to optimal as possible, without piling on the pounds
I am just trying to educate myself further in the protein department . I have read all the articles pertaining to Protein...I think.
Cheryl thanks for the math lesson I will see if I can figure it out
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 4:54 pm:
HMMMM I am starting to wonder if my computer is playing tricks on me OR I need to go to the Psychiatrist .
Dr.O. did you put a new formula and better explanation how to figure protein in the grains protein section...or did I completely miss it somehow????
I don't quite understand what this means
However you ortfeed and weigh on a as fed basis
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 8:07 pm:
OK think I got it using Cheryls math
MY horses Diet
I am not sure of the protein content of the hay, but I think 7% would be generous, based on past testings.
12 lbs. of hay x .07 = .84 lbs.
1 lb of RB x .32 = .32
which = 1.16 lbs. of protein
1.16/ 13lbs. of total feed = .89 which means my total protein is just about 9 TAH_DAH THANK YOU CHERYL!!!!
I really would like their protein to be at least 10% but closer to 12% would make me happier.
SOOOO if I up their hay and leave the RB the same that doesn't help I don't think
Say I feed 15lbs. of 7% hay and still 1lb. of 32% RB
15x.7 = 1.05
1 x .32 = .32
.32 + 1.05 = 1.37 (thank God for calculators)
1.37/16 = 8.5% SEEE that is what I don't get, the more I feed the less the protein %. Shouldn't the percentage go up even tho the hay is lower in protein? The more hay I feed the more protein I need to add it seems
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Member:
aletao
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 8:31 pm:
You're right, Diane...if you feed more hay at 7% CP, it will bring down your average. Only a feed with more CP than 12 will increase your CP value.
Why not calculate using, say, a pound and a half or a pound and a quarter of the RB?
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Member:
aletao
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 8:55 pm:
Okay Diane,
Work with me on this analogy. Forget protein. I work two jobs -- one pays me $7 per hour, and the other pays me $32 per hour. Let's say I work 16 hours per week, 15 hours at my low paying job (LPJ) and only one hour at my high paying job (HPJ).
15 hours * $7/hour = $105
1 hour * $32/hour = 32
Total sum of money earned $137
Average hourly wage (137/16) = $8.56
What happens to my average hourly wage if I work 5 more hours a week at the LPJ?
20 hours * $7 = 140
1 hour * $32 32
Total earned 172
Average 8.19
The average decreased because I worked more hours at my LPJ.
I hope that the analogy is of help and not more confusing. You should be able to notice that I used the numbers you gave in your feed example.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 9:37 pm:
Aleta I am a lost cause! I understand averages, my math isn't quite that bad BUT it just doesn't seem LOGICAL that the more hay I feed the lower the protein goes.
Let me show you how my brain is working this then maybe I can be helped!
Let's say I feed my horses my first formula and their total protein % is 9. OK Let's set that aside they ate it all up and I decide OH I want to give them 5 more pounds of hay so then...we have 5 more pounds of hay I fed them right after they scarfed up their other hay and RB
SOOOOO 5lbs. of hay X .07= .35/5 = .07 SOOOOO I just fed them .35 more pounds of protein...now if you figure that in with my original the protein% goes down...If I feed it alone they got more protein...do you see how my deranged mid is working.
OMG it just finally clicked in my head I GOT IT THANKS! Hard to believe I graduated HS some days!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 8:13 am:
Aleta has put her finger exactly on Diane's cause for confusion: Diane you are confusing percentages with absolute amounts. Diane the absolute measure of adequate protein intake is not the percentage in the diet but the daily intake. Percentages are just convenient ways to compare feeds.
A recommended protein as a percentage of the total weight in the diet is based on knowing how much protein a horse needs and what the average horse will eat daily. Without looking up any numbers (so this may be off a little bit) let's reverse engineer the total amount of protein that should be in a 1000 lb horse under maintenance conditions:
Horses eat about 2.5% of their bwt. daily and the recommended CP is 10%. So our hypothetical horse will consume about:
25lb feed X .10 = 2.5lbs of CP daily
for good health.
When you add low quality to the diet Diane you lower the protein percentage but up the amount of protein in the diet. It is only when you supplant higher protein feeds with lower protein feeds that you lower the amount of protein in the diet.
The formula in the article has been there for years Diane but this discussion has got the put the concentrate article on the block for a major rewrite which is under way as we post to see if this type confusion can be avoided in the future.
DrO
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Member:
aletao
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 8:54 am:
Dr. O,
Your math is right, but something is amiss...I think that your % is missing a decimal point when you stated that "horses eat about 25% of the BW daily...".
You mention the 1000 pound horse is mentioned in the sentence prior to this statement. So, either it's 2.5% BW or 25 pounds for the 1000 pound horse.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 9:17 am:
YES Dr.O. you hit my confusion on the head!!!
But in a way I remain confused. If I stick with my 1lb. of 32% ration balancer and just add more 7% hay for example my % of protein goes down BUT my poundage goes up....what do you actually go by?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 10:04 am:
Woops 250 lbs would be a bit much I think 25 lb and 25% got transposed in my mind. 2.5% of bodyweight would be correct and to prevent confusion have corrected it above. Thanks for the correction.
Diane, in your scenerio you go by how much the horse eats, that determines how much actual protein he gets. Though 2.5% is an average horses can eat up to 3% of their bodyweight but as the amount of roughage increases their will be a bit of a hay belly develop.
If you want to figure how to balance these two feeds so that you are feeding 10% protein and 25 lbs you have to use the following equation:
(X)(.07) + (25 - X)(.32) = 2.5
The X is the weight of hay and 25 - X is the amount of concentrate. The factors they are multiplied by are the fraction of protein in each of the feedstuffs and the sume 2.5 is the amount of protein that needs to be in the diet. This resolves to
Hay = 22.5 lbs
Concentrate = 2.5 lbs
Aleta be sure to check my math.
 DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 10:26 am:
Lori,
Rereading the posts above I came across your questions that have not been answered.
Horses that receive inadequate protein in their diet, don't grow well, loose weight, decreased performance, poor hair coats (long and scruffy), flaky greasy skin and poor quality hooves. They also become depressed and loose appetite. It should be noted that a singular protein deficiency is rare and almost always accompanied by deficiencies in energy and the oil soluble vitamins.
As to protein excess the amino acids have the nitrogen removed as ammonia and the rest is used for energy. If the energy is not needed immediately it is converted to glycogen or fat. While there are theoretical problems with too much protein under any practical feeding schemes the excess will stay well below these problems. for instance growing foals fed a diet containing 33% crude protein did not suffer any problems.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 1:58 pm:
GOT IT! Thanks everyone for your help!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 2:32 pm:
Sorry pushed post to fast(got too excited)!, the trick is to start with how much forage you want to feed. So I want the fat ones to have 12#'s of 7% protein hay
SOOO to get in the range I prefer I should probably feed 1.5-2Lbs. of the 32% RB
At 2lbs their protein percentage would be 10.5%
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 2:43 pm:
One more question Dr.O.
I am feeding the horses The grow and win ration balancer and it seems to have the needed "building blocks" I know you do not endorse products, but overall does this seem like a good product for my situation or to add protein that can be "utilized"?
https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/GNW%20product%20manual.pdf
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 10:13 am:
Diane Sorry to be so late to get back to this. Your CONCEPT has been correct since my last post. However, your calculation was incorrect in that you made 7% = 0.7 when it should be 0.07
All else is good!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 8:26 am:
Thanks Cheryl your formula was very easy for this poor mathematical mind. I should copy and paste it somewhere so I don't loose it, just in case I decide to add alfalfa pellets in!
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 8:17 am:
Dr. O thank you for your answers.
I can't quite leave this alone yet. Please bear with me. How critical are protein values in a mature, moderately working horse? Would, say, 2-3% under protein make a noticeable difference? 4-5%?
It is not that I want to under feed, it is that I am still lost in the formula, so I want to understand how critical protein values are. If 2 o3 % really make a difference then I need to really apply myself and somehow learn to figure this.
I gotta admit I am still lost in this discussion.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 8:24 am:
When you add low quality to the diet Diane you lower the protein percentage but up the amount of protein in the diet. It is only when you supplant higher protein feeds with lower protein feeds that you lower the amount of protein in the diet.
Please excuse my lack of math here. I add a low quality hay, so this means there is not much protein, so a lower percentage makes sense.
How does it follow that reducing the percentage increases total protein?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 9:17 am:
Lori,
I am lost in this too. I just got done reviewing the Nutrition Article on here, and from what I understand, my horses have most likely been getting lower than needed amounts of protein for many years, especially over the winter months. My hay supplier sells me 600 or so bales of hay, from different fields, baled at different maturities. Right now, for an example, I am feeding one bale from this year, and one bale from last year, hoping to balance out any deficiencies, and now it seems that it not enough, yikes!
Now I am trying to figure the most efficient(as in cheapest) way to up the protein, keep horses slim, and balance it all out. (Vitamins/minerals)
If only I could get my hay guy to deliver only hay that has part alfalfa, that seems to be the best method, but not easy to find around here.
DrO,
I also would like to know the answer to what Lori asks above.
"How critical are protein values in a mature, moderately working horse? Would, say, 2-3% under protein make a noticeable difference? 4-5%?
It is not that I want to under feed, it is that I am still lost in the formula, so I want to understand how critical protein values are."
ALSO: I think the key thing that needs to be stressed in the article where it says horses need water, mineral block, good quality forage, is that means EXCELLANT HAY/PASTURE, and it seems to also mean 24/7.
Many of us do not provide hay 24/7 for financial reasons, and because our horses are not worked enough and would become too fat on hay 24/7.
I am NOT saying the article don't explain how to feed, or what, or how much, rather I understood it that if my horses are getting the min % of hay to remain a good body condition, all was well!
I know you said you will be updating the article on protein & the formula, just a suggestion in case others understood it the way I did.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 1:38 pm:
umm not sure how the name Diane got into the middle of my sentence. I was coping and pasting.
Apologies for the confusion.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 1:42 pm:
I'm glad I'm not the only one that has a hard time wrapping my brain around this. I quit thinking about it
I think the key is to start the with forage you feed, if it is 7% protein you want to add to the forage to get it to 10-12%. As far as poundage and percentage, I don't know! If I got it correct, no matter how much 7% hay you feed it is still 7% protein...that takes some thought but makes sense SOOOO it is 7% of the total diet. Regardless if you feed 10# or 20#'s. I know I still have to think about that!
Personally I think protein and the related amino acids are important for the reasons listed in the article, actually I like to see my old coggers getting closer to 12%.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 4:57 pm:
Guys, you all seem to have missed the article's main point on feeding horses despite putting it at the top in large bold type. Please review the Golden Rule. It answers all your practical questions. Concerning the need for 24 hr feeding we know that horses can consume a full days feed in 6 hours if pressed. Horses are happiest when they can graze around the clock however.
Diane, it is not the percentage that determines whether a horse would be deficient or not, it is the amount of protein that is important. Horses getting 20 lbs get twice as much protein as those getting 10 lbs. By providing a certain percentage you make it easy for the horse to get adequate amounts without having to consume huge amounts of food.
To return to the hypothetical question of what happens when you feed horse x by (10 - y) amount of protein, whose quality is z, impossible to answer. I see horses that do fine on good quality hay (say 8 to 10% protein) alone all the time but few that do well on poor quality hay. But this is probably as much energy and vitamin problems as it is protein. I also often see horses requiring concentrate when moved to equal weight amounts of poorer quality feeds often begin to loose weight until returned to a higher quality feed. Often when you check such feeds their protein analysis is...optimistic. Look to your horses to answer the question, "am I feeding well?", after all they are the only ones who really know the answer.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 10:14 pm:
I give up Dr.O., what I'm doing seems to be working so I'm going with it, whatever the protein amount is...no more thinking about it
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 6:43 am:
As to your math skills DianE I guess that is more than I can tackle. And you should give up trying to make your horse fit some average dietary formula. Since you have been with us you have worked for years to get your horses fed so they remain healthy and in good condition. Now that you have achieved those goals why would you try to shoe horn your horses into some formula that represents what the average horse needs?.
Diane your horses are simply illustrating that every horse is an individual who's dietary need is unique.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 7:36 am:
Thanks Dr.O. it isn't really my math skills that are lacking,(altho they do) it is the logical aspect of it. poundage vs. percentage. I am very pleased with the results of my efforts with these easy keepers, with multiple problems.
I have tweaked their diet to include more % of protein(and vit. and minerals) because I DID see the signs of it lacking in their diet, with the addition of the RB this spring those signs have disappeared for the most part. I will leave it as is. I was just trying to make sure it was optimal, since my forage is stemmy and they don't get a whole lot. I am not trying to shoe horn their diet to meet averages, I am trying to make sure they are getting the needed nutrients for as healthy as horses I can get.
I'll get it eventually
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 5, 2009 - 10:08 am:
Ok all,
I am in the process of revisiting this topic with regards to my own horses nutritional needs. Specifically with my growing 18 month old colt, who I consider to be in light training ( 2.5 miles of jogging at a consistent 10-12 mph.
He is at about a 5-6 on the condition scale and weighs in at 900lbs on the weight tape.
He is eating 8 lbs of concentrate @ 11% protein
and 15 lbs of straight good quality orchard grass hay. ( The hay is not tested for protein content, but according to the forage protein chart for orchard grass the protein is 11%, this seems high).
So, if I use Dr. O's the formula above,
15 (.11) + (22-15) * 11= 0.77
1.65 + 0.77 = 2.42 amount of protein in current diet.
The colt looks good for where he is in his training schedule, but as the amount of work increases, I want to add alfalfa pellets to his current feed mix without reducing the poundage
If I understand this whole thing correctly, that will both increase the poundage of protein and increase the percentage of protein in this horses diet.
At the same time I am looking at the management of preventing ulcers and it seems as if the alfalfa pellet component may help.
So, are there any errors in my thinking or does this seem to be a prudent way to feed this colt. Should I add anything or subtract anything.
He is on a loading dose of OCD pellets and garlic and has a mineral salt block free choice ( which I see him use).
This colt is turned out every night (12 hours) but the pasture has died off so I don't think there is much nutritional value in whatever he is eating outside.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 5, 2009 - 11:49 am:
Hi Rachelle sounds like a good way to add protein, I am adding a little alfalfa pellets to my mix also.
What is in the concentrate, is he getting enough calcium and vitamins/minerals? The alfalfa would help with the calcium also.
Since I like the easiest way around things, the ration balancers work well, by adding the needed vit/min/protein according to forage. Tho your concentrate would have to be taken into consideration also.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 6, 2009 - 8:57 am:
Hello Rachelle,
23 lbs of 11% feed comes to 2.5 lbs protein. You are right orchard grass with 11% protein would be excellent numbers. I am uncertain whether you plan to add this to the existing diet or planning to substitute this to the diet. But in either case the decision of whether this is prudent or not depends on whether you wish to increase the condition of the horse or not.
DrO
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 6, 2009 - 12:54 pm:
Dr. O.
I am using the table in one of your nutrition articles that shows the different percentages of protein in different types of forages. It has orchard grass @ 11 percent protein.
I am using orchard grass hay in my current feed program, but The hay I am using has not been tested for protein content. The folks I buy my hay from go through it so fast, that I never get the same hay twice. But the hay is clean and not dusty and my horses seem to like it, so I am assuming( not my most favorite word) that it is good quality and the protein content would be similar to what's in the article.
My colt is 18 months old, stands 15 hands ( I measured him today)and is close to 900 lbs and growing like a weed.
Since June when I broke him, I've had to let the crupper out at least 4 inches and had to expand his girth 3 inches on each side. He is going to grow into a big powerful horse at this rate of growth.
He is a very well mannered colt except for a biting issue, but since he does everything else perfectly, I can live with that.
My original question was: Given this particular colt, and his current feed regime, exercise level and condition as stated above do you think I need to add more protein to his diet in the form of alfalfa pellets?
Rachelle
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 6, 2009 - 8:55 pm:
Rachelle, the nutrition tables have the actively growing stages of orchard grass at 11% but the mature stage as low as 6% for more on this see Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Forages for Horses, an Overview.
If your orchard grass has been cut early in the growth stage it might make 11%. But when doing calculations I usually don't assume I have the very best numbers unless it is tested and the way you describe it in you last post it may indicate it is quite variable so perhaps you may be better to assume it to be closer to 8 or 9% and using the alfalfa figure up a diet that provides closer to 12% protein considering his age.
DrO
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 6, 2009 - 10:54 pm:
Thanks Dr. O,
That's what I needed to know. I want to start increasing his feed any way, So I will start adding about 1 lb of alfalfa pellets and go from there.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 7:28 am:
Yikes, I was not going to comment, sat on my hands and everything!.
But since this confuses me so, I have to!
Wouldn't the poundage of protein in Rachelles horses diet be sufficient??? I thought % wasn't a big deal??
Sorry
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 8:45 am:
OK Dr. O,
Let's see if I got this right and maybe help Diane in the process.
I am looking at getting 12 to 14% total protein in this colts diet. If he is eating a total of 23lbs of hay/grain per day for his weight, exercise and body condition. And I know that in the very near future his activity level is going to increase ( mileage wise, not necessarily speed wise) and I want to keep the amount of lbs he gets equal to what he is supposed to get for his weight and age (23lbs).
Also instead of 11% on the hay I'll use 6 %. That means
15 lbs ( forage) (.06) + (23-15) *.11 ( concentrate)
.90 + 8 *.11
.90 + .88= 1.78lbs
Now if I want to figure the calculation for % of total protein in his diet. I would divide 1.78 by 23lbs that gets me to approx. 8% so this is too low.
To increase the total protein, yet keep the same volume. I would need to add enough protein by adding a percentage of a protein concentrate( such as a ration balancer), so that the total poundage of protein would increase.
15lbs (.06) + 7 lbs concentrate (.11) +4 lbs ration balancer(.30)
.90 + .77 + 1.2 =2.87 lbs protein = 12.4 % total percent of protein in diet.
By George I think I've got it. How about you Diane?
I think this mix would work as long as my calculations are correct. It would also be much cheaper to feed less concentrate and more ration balancer with the type of hay I am using.
And now to figure out my two backyard buddies.
Did I tell you I am a mathophobic of the worst kind and I am expecting someone to tell me my calculations are wrong.
Thanks for letting me think aloud in this discussion.
Rachelle
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 7:59 pm:
15 lbs ( forage) (.06) + (23-15) *.11 ( concentrate)
.90 + 8 *.11
.90 + .88= 1.78lbs
Lets see if I can add the correct words to the math puzzle...uh problem..formula above.
15lbs hay multiply 6% protein + (23 being total pounds you want to feed minus the 15lbs hay equals 8)
8lbs of concentrate multiply by % of protein which in this case is .11. which equals .88.
90 + 88 equals 1.78 (is the 90 a percent?)
divide 1.78 by total lbs fed 23 gives the percent of protein fed. which in this case is 8 percent.
HOw did you decide to feed 4lbs of ration balancer? Was that just a question of crunching numbers until you arrived at the percent you want to feed?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 8:11 pm:
I really do think we need a pulling out your hair smiley icon... bet it would be the most used!
No more math for me.. I have my horses up to 11% protein and am happy with the results...good enough!!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 8:20 pm:
Lori,
Yes, that's what I did. I needed to get to 12% or there abouts and the only way to to that was to add 4 lbs of 30% ration balancer to the mix.
Now the good ( not) part. Tonight when I got home I decided to weigh everything. The last time I weighed the concentrate I was feeding Triple Crown complete and Oats with Soybean oil. The scoop I used held 2 lbs of dry concentrate.
I made the mistake of assuming that the feed I am using now TC Complete and Legends Pelleted Performance weighed the same thing. I was very wrong.
My poor colt has only been getting 5 lbs of concentrate ( Even though he looks fine) and 16 lbs of hay. So it looks like, I'll be going back to crunching numbers again. Thank goodness I don't plan on changing feeds any time soon.
Rachelle
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 8:22 pm:
Diane, what bo you consider an adequate amount of protein for this horse considering it's age?
As to whether percentage is important, it depends on what you mean by the word "important". Since the amount of protein the horse is getting in the diet is determined by the average protein percentage and the horse receives a fixed amount of feed, it would certainly be important from a nutritional point of view BUT it is not the only way to look at the issue.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 9:04 pm:
NO Idea Dr.O, cuz' I still haven't figured out poundage versus percentage
This is from one of your posts above
Diane, it is not the percentage that determines whether a horse would be deficient or not, it is the amount of protein that is important. Horses getting 20 lbs get twice as much protein as those getting 10 lbs. By providing a certain percentage you make it easy for the horse to get adequate amounts without having to consume huge amounts of food.
SOOOOO according to the "articles" there are a few in here pertaining to protein, on average an adult horse should get around 10% protein,little more for younger and older, with no health problems. Where does poundage and fit in here???
I don't have the energy to go back and do the math, but it would seem the more low percentage feed you feed, whether it be 2% OR 10% or anywhere in between the more protein they get regardless (poundage wise)
I guess where my confusion lies now isn't really in the math, but in poundage VS. percentage.
IF in fact regardless if you feed a low percentage hay say 6% and enough of it the protein should still be adequate poundage wise....so why aren't the "standards" in poundage rather than percentages?? I think I will have a migraine soon.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:11 pm:
Diane,
I am going to use Hank as an example because I created a Microsoft excel worksheet so I didn't have to constantly do the calculations. I was getting a migraine also.
I am using the following values let me know if I am off.
Hanks weight-900 lbs
Percent of body weight to feed for lightly exercised, mature horse 2% = 18 lbs total volume
You want 10% protein
Your Hay is 6 % protein?
Your balancer is 30%
Hank should be getting
15lbs- 6% Hay
3 lbs of 30% Ration balancer
I am not sure what else he's getting, so that would change the calculation.
The poundage of the protein is directly related to the percentage, but that percentage is also related to the total volume of what the horse eats on a daily basis.
If he is eating less total volume say only 10 lbs of hay and 1.5 of the ration balancer, that brings the total percentage down to 6% and it doesn't cover his nutritional needs.
You could bump up his hay to 22 lbs and leave the ration balance at 1.5 lbs and still stay at 10% protein, but I think Hank would be walking around looking like a pregnant broodmare from all that hay.
I am posting the spread sheet. It's not fancy but it works.
You can play around with the numbers to see how it works out with your actual amounts.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:27 pm:
Thanks Rachelle, I guess I did have it figured out earlier, then started thinking again! The whole thing is rather confusing, volume is the important factor and the starting point. Good! I don't have to think about it anymore!
For some reason my computer stopped opening xls files...guess I could work on that Weds.
Are you feeding a RB to up the protein along with the alfalfa pellets?
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 7:24 am:
Diane,
I decided against the alfalfa pellets, I'd have to feed more of them than I do of the ration balancer.
The one good thing about this exercise in math is it made me really look at what I have been feeding all of my horses.
Here's another question. Part of my concentrate is a complete feed which is mainly beet pulp ( so its another type of forage). Do I count it as concentrate or count it towards the forage portion of this colts diet?
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 7:30 am:
OHHH good question! In Dr.O.'s article beet pulp is compared to grass hay, but doesn't a complete feed have lots of vit/min and suppose to be balanced enough to feed alone with nothing else? So a complete feed would cover both bases...forage and concentrate..Right.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 5:04 pm:
Diane the lbs of protein a horse eats can be calculated by the percent of protein in the diet times the total lbs of diet. We use percentages because it allows us to calculate how many pounds of protein are in a given amount of feed.
DrO
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 12:02 am:
Is it that easy?
I am guessing my hay is 8% and my pellets are 20%.
I am also guessing that my free feeding horse is eating 25lbs, and I am pretending, for the sake of this formula, that I am also giveing two lbs of pellets.
So horse is getting 27lb times 28% equals 7.56 protein.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 12:12 am:
Using the formula Dr O posted in the middle of this thread this is what I came up with.
(Guessing) 25lbs hay @ 8% = 2
1 lb pellets @ 20% = .2
26lbs of feed 2.2(is this 2.2 a percent?)
2.2/26 =.08
After I add a lb of 20% protein how come I still end up with only 8% protein?
dog with a bone grrr.... gotta understand this.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 7:04 am:
The 2.2 represents the total weight of protein in the diet Lori.
The problem is that when you dilute the effects of 1 lb of high protein feed over 25 lbs of forage the effects are less than 1 percent. To see the effect you have to look at one more digit:
With no supplementation if you feed 26 lbs of hay the diet would 8.0% protein. If you substitute one lb of 20% feed and use your calculations above and carry it out one more digit then the diet calculates out to 8.5%.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 7:09 am:
Lori when you understand it let me know! It's the poundage Vs. percentage that is weird!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 8:10 am:
Lori,
If you have Excel, you can download the spreadsheet, you just have to plug in your own numbers.
I added 1 lb of calf manna 25% protein to bring up my protein number.
Rachelle
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 7:16 pm:
R, I do have excel, i will try your program, thank you.
I see what you mean Dr. O, thank you.
I have some bales that are 90% grass, and some that are 30-50 alfalfa. I alternate bales.
Do you think I even need to be concerned about adding protein?
I am thinking about it because it I seem to remember something about horses that chew wood incessantly may be low in protein.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 7:21 am:
Lori, if I understand you right you feed a good quality grass hay with about 20% of their diet being alfalfa hay (appx 18% protein). If you feed 25 lbs of forage daily this might mean:
(20 lbs hay)(0.08) = 1.6 lbs protein
(5 lbs alfalfa)(0.18) = 0.9 lbs protein
1.6 + 0.9 = 2.5 lbs protein in the diet
2.5/25 = .10 or 10% protein
So assuming the above assumptions are true your protein level is fine.
DrO
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 7:47 am:
Great thanks.
Is there an amount that it is assumed a horse will eat if allowed to eat free choice hay?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 6:44 pm:
Yes, check out the practical considerations topic in the Overview article for this and more.
DrO
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% Protein calculation Worksheet