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| Discussion on Hoof Critique 3.... Am I seeing a LITTLE concavity? | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 5, 2009 - 8:58 am: I knew Angie would have slow typing on the old one, so started this My pictures aren't the greatest as usual! He also has some Thrushbuster on his hoof, that's why it is purple. He was shedding sole like crazy so the farrier did remove that.  Sole view, the 1st picture is not very good, but the more I looked at it the more I thought I saw a tiny bit of concavity??? That would be a first for the flat footed boy...Am I seeing things? ??????   ????? 
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 5, 2009 - 9:11 am: AND does not it appear he finally has more hoof behind the widest part of the sole?
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 5, 2009 - 9:54 am: Why Thank You Diane, yes, it was slow going for me on the other thread!Lay the rasp across his hoof at the apex of the frog, (where you drew your black line) is there space between the rasp and sole? How much of the sole is touching the ground at the toe, and how much above the sole is the wall on the rest of the hoof? Do you own a thin metal pocket ruler? I use one of them to measure the collateral grooves depth. The clip slides so I run that to lay on the frog/sole/bars, with the end of the ruler in the groove. Some one with better memory than me can tell you good depths. I see you are going to keep reminding me to review my DVDs and notes, lol! I am feeling brain warped on the hoof terms and some of the points; I guess because I am taking the "It ain't broken, leave it alone" attitude with mine! I think Hank's hoofs look darn good! What I would like to see (PIA here I know, but you are asking advice!) is a couple more pictures: Clean out along the frog really well, then a picture from heels looking to toe, not showing sole. I want to see if quarters are level, low enough. Lay rasp along like I said above, so we can see depth there. Just using your hoof pick, check depth at heels and at the end of the frog, not the tip of the frog, but along sides, what do you think the 2 measurements are? If you can't do all that and take picture, just give an estimate. Lay rasp on outer wall at toe, with hoof brought forward, so we can see if there is any flare left...I don't think so, and I know you know how to look for that. Oh, and I'd like to see his bars too, too dirty on pictures. So, what's that, 4 more pictures? Home work dear  All in all, I don't see anything major, just maybe a few tweaks..MAYBE..remember you said he's sound, and sane! You're doing a great job keeping up with beveling, and he's come a long ways! Pat, pat, on your back! |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 5, 2009 - 10:08 am: I'll see what I can do. The sun is finally shining so will give it a try. Don't know if I can get the purple off tho. The farrier took quite a bit of exfoliating sole off and there was a little thrush under it. Same with his bars they were getting overgrown...wonder if he took them down quite a bit? They did need it. I noticed they were getting laid over, with thrush starting under them. I am VERY impressed with his tolerance of frozen ground...especially after a trim! Farrier offered me one of his hoof knives I said no thanks not quite up to that yet! Off to take pics and see if I can clean them up while the sun is shining! |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 5, 2009 - 10:48 am: OK I hope one of these gives you an idea! He does still have a streched WL, but every trimming now it is getting better!   
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| Member: juliem |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 5, 2009 - 1:10 pm: Thanks Julie, you have been very helpful through our 5 year saga . OK since my knee is broke again I have been drawing lines. I don't think he has a dish at his toe anymore, maybe a small one in the cursed hoof. RF...cursed hoof!  LF 
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 5, 2009 - 1:14 pm: Angie, I was posting as you were. The walls are a little high yet...just a little! He does tend to wear them down himself and this worked out well last time, especially if I use the riders rasp a couple times a week..Thank you for all your help 
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| Member: npo33901 |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 6, 2009 - 10:17 am: P.S., Maybe I should host a HA Hoof Party??? We can watch the DVD's, share some eggnog, and examine my horses hoofs? Hmmm...maybe not this winter, huh, Diane? 
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: npo33901 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 - 8:36 am: I do want to add these to Hanks thread, the more I look at them the more I am amazed at his hoof change.I do look back on his threads for reference and timelines. Again everyone Thank You for your help and support through this saga March 2007 and Dec 09  2007... WLD?  Dec 09 
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 - 10:18 am: Yes that one is from yesterday. I wish we could just touch up his hooves in paint How easy would that be! I do know his outside wall is high and it does need a bevel... is there more
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 - 12:39 pm: I might have some similar pictures of Tangos hoofs that answer your last question. I have to think on it.Let's see if I can get the marked up picture to load with what I THINK I see, and comments.  O.k., sorry I also got the other hoof in the upload. The red circle shows the bars; I would take them down more with my knife. The bars are pushing the hoof wall out, and you cannot get rid of the flare there until the bars are corrected. Looking at his hoof from the side, EYE LEVEL, is the sole higher (yellow dots)than the wall, red dots? IF so, that will make a horse sore, and limits what you can do to bevel the wall. If the sole is not higher than the wall, or it's flush, I would mustang roll at the toe (Blue line) at a steeper angle. And of course bevel the sides too. When I had Tango at the same point I think I am seeing Hank's hoofs are at, he did not have much depth at the apex of the frog. You will get slow but sure results, I THINK, with the riders rasp. Quicker if you do more with the rasp. But a never ending battle if bars are continuing to push the walls out at the quarters. Even scooping the quarters, and/or beveling more will not solve flare there without attention to the bars. More beveling tightens white line quicker. I don't know if the riders rasp if enough as I haven't used one. That's my understanding/experience at this point. What are you calling the weird DrOpped sole in the other picture? |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 - 1:33 pm: Your eye is pretty good The hoof wall at this point is about flush with the sole. Hank is a maniacal pawer in the snow and he wears the wall down fast...don't think I'm going to mess with that. I think the yellow dots are a start of a toe callous...maybe from the pawing? The bars are being weird at this point, if you scroll up to his 5/05 pics he didn't hardly have any, the farrier trimmed them back pretty good because they were starting to overlay...perhaps he is growing them so fast because he needs them? Still haven't figured out bars, but have read they start growing them fast once the trim is better? This is the weird/DrOpped sole I am talking about...this was after his pretty significant founder....about 5 mos. I think WLD may have been involved also Dunno, but what a mess huh? 
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 - 3:09 pm: I agree with Rachelle's observations.I only have blurred pictures of Tango's hoofs from the time he had that going on. I left the sole alone. He actually had a "Hole" it looked like between the end of his frog, and his toe, and that spot felt spongy to me! That was scary! Not a hole, like a thumb print indentation maybe is a better description. I don't think Hank shows anything like that, and that's good! So if Hank is pawing the wall away, you probably are o.k. just beveling with the riders rasp. You are correct that he might be sore if you do too much. I've never taken out sole unless I see some hole(s), I figure it will come off when ready. I need to check with my "teacher" on this for sure, but I think the bars are growing faster because the toe is pulling forward. Or maybe it's the bars pushing the toe forward? All I know without a doubt is they need some work. (I think!) Have you ever seen a picture of just the wall and bars? The bars go all the way up to the coronet band like the outer hoof wall you see, correct? If they are not trimmed, they need to lay over, go forward, outward, etc, all affecting the rest of the hoof. Having said that, Hank is in a transition period yet, and this IMO, (for the few pennies that is worth!) means he really only needs a few tweaks the while he's growing a better hoof. I would, this time only, take my hoof knife and do some....I hate to use this word..carving (OUCH, PANIC!!) of the bars starting along about at the frog, and ending at the point where bar meets wall. Slope up to that point. Let's see if this helps:  I think I've said this to myself a million times: Bevel, bevel, bevel, Bars, bars, bars! (not the kind that serves drinks, though there were days...) Again, it is just little tweaks, and lots of patience. Remember how for those hoofs have come. O.k., give me heck if it don't make sense, or if I am just rattling chicken bones, lol! |
| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 - 7:47 pm: Dr.O the one Angie has been drawing on is the one from yesterday 09... the rest are 07..It IS the same hoof featured in this thread WHY?? Does it look like crap again I thought it looked pretty good (for Hank) on hard ground. I haven't been beveling it the last couple weeks because of the cold and snow.
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 - 8:52 pm: OK now I am fretting again and kind of confused myself!This is Hanks hoof from yesterday. Angie I zoomed in on This picture so I could get a closer look at his bars. That black color he has there makes it kind of deceiving I think. When I zoomed in I couldn't really see much of a bar on the right side of the picture, but the left could use a bit of trimming. Has his hoof gotten bad again? I thought it looked nice and wide with more hoof behind the widest part, nice healthy frog, walls are a bit ragged, but he is now on the hard irregular winter ground, and his hoof stays wet most of the time. 
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| Member: kpaint |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 13, 2009 - 9:55 pm: Good Luck
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Dec 14, 2009 - 6:31 am: BTW I do know his outside wall is higher than the inside. I will try to fix that today, and bevel the whole thing. Anything else?
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Dec 14, 2009 - 7:24 am: Thanks Rachelle. I will try to get that done today. I now have the coarser blades for the RR so think that will help. I really thought his hoof looked pretty good...other than the high outside wall? I guess I better stay on top of his hooves I have been kind of slack, my farrier took off for the south for the winter... so it is up to me to try to keep his hoof in order and him sound on this hard frozen ground. I ALWAYS worry when we get this type of ground, it has always resulted in severe bruising...which is what I was trying to show in the 07 pics. I fed late last night and the horses were starved I ended my night with a very big smile..Hank cantered (very nicely) out to his hay on that hard ground, which usually brings on a stiff, stilted walk or even refusal to come out of the lean-to.... so we must be getting there! |
| Member: kpaint |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Dec 14, 2009 - 8:25 am: Diane,I hope you aren't loosing sleep over this! I forgot to add "PICTURES CAN BE DECIEVING" I think, after seeing the close up, what I thought was bar material is just a line in his hoof. Can you feel bar material with your finger nail? Maybe this is tactic for you to try. Use you hands and the braille system instead of you eyes. Feeling bars at the point midway up his frog is o.k...mid way down to the end of the frog, not needed. Bars folding over can have black under them, that's what I thought I saw. You should be able to just feel the bars a tad above the sole on the part running from midway up to the junction. Also, back to the feeling part, can you feel a flare on the outer hoof wall at any spot? Again, I 2nd Rachelle's description, and suggestion to mark each hoof. And touch up the right side. I mark each hoof on the sole with red magic marker before pictures. LF, RF, T for Tango, C for cody, etc. You could add month and year instead of initial since it's mostly Hanks hoofs. Let me add my latest drawing to see if we are communicating here.  The solid line, behind that, looking towards the toe, I take out bar material. Green circle LOOKS like extra there. The green slashes, how high is that? Can you just catch your finger nail on the bars there? A good description I read on trimming bars said that part should be flat like a little road, then a slight incline going up to the heel. VERY very slight. The pink circles, make sure this area does not stick up above the sole or wall! I struggled with that area for months...aaaarrrgggghhhhh!!! It must be fine on Hank, or he would be uncomfortable...just an added precaution. Now, Diane, seriously, HANK'S hoofs look GREAT!! These are just little LITTLE tweaks. Get that right side corrected, a smidgen off bars if needed, and take a deep breath, and don't look at his hoofs til next YEAR. Let his hoofs tell you what they need then. Remember to use your judgement, you are seeing and touching his hoofs, we are just looking at pictures. We can't see him move, or notice if he's resting one foot more, etc. Oh, if you are not comfortable with a hoof knife? Practice carving a bar of soap, or a hard squash! And keep your hoof knife very very sharp. (Hey maybe we can have a gallery full of soap carvings from all future hoof gals, and guys, lol!) And as always, anyone who thinks I need to be corrected, please speak up. I may be (most likely) missing something or suggestioning a poor solution. I do this to help others, as well as learn and reinforce my learning. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Dec 14, 2009 - 9:53 am: Diane here is my concern. Look at the change in the relation between the corner created by the bar where it meets the wall at the heel (yellow angle) and the posterior corner of the frog (green angle):  The 12th appears to show that the heels are trying to run back under the foot and pretty quickly. The 5th shows a healthier relationship and where the horse should be returned to slowly back over the next week or so. This should be where you aim for and even taken a bit more than the 5th the two corners are even with each other. This assumes I am seeing what is actually happening with the foot. DrO |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Dec 14, 2009 - 12:43 pm: Thanks Dr.O. I am glad you drew on the hooves it is much easier for me to understand I wonder why his hoof wants to run under so quickly? He isn't going to give me any slack with this is he. When I get home I will get to work on his hoof, hopefully I know what I am doing Thanks everyone. |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Dec 14, 2009 - 2:19 pm: I think in simplest terms, DrO is saying pull the heel point back? The back of the frog is back farther then your heel point is how I understand it.At first the lines didn't make sense to me, but I think that's what you mean, DrO? I think for now you get no slack because you have to keep battling the bars and beveling. (feeling like a broken record here, bars & bevel) I still battle that with Gem's hoofs, it takes time. Don't give up though. If I am more confusing than helpful, I can be quiet for a bit and let you digest all the advice.
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Dec 14, 2009 - 6:16 pm: Angie, I get confused no matter what I am starting to get a grasp of things tho, thanks to everyones good drawings! Dr.O. one more question, tho the outside hoof wall is high, that side of his hoof where you drew lines looks not so run forward if I am understanding right. His hoof looks uneven IOW. Right? I was not able to do anything tonight, was dark when I got home. Busy all week too, so I think I have until the weekend to comprehend and start rasping.
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 15, 2009 - 11:11 am: Ran home to warm up and since the sun was out went and took a few shots...hopefully these help and are better...I took a few swipes with the RR so his wall would hopefully be more visible...  
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| Member: stek |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 15, 2009 - 3:01 pm: Shannon,I haven't reread that article lately, but it seems that he's wishy washy one the bars. If I am remembering correctly, on the DVD, he takes off excess bars the first "corrective" trim, meaning the first time he's doing a barefoot trim on a horse with some issues, he takes off along side the frog, and for lack of a better word, "scoops" that out. Like making concavity. The part in front (toe) of the green line on Hanks hoofs. I think the confusion comes in with regards to what you are trying to correct: With Hanks hoofs, the bars/heels are fighting to go forward, and there's flare yet along the whole hoof. More so at the quarters. So I would keep after Hanks bars weekly or at least bi-weekly. The bars will keep pushing the wall out at the quarters, and stay run under. IF Hank had a very very low heel,flat feet, I think then it makes more sense to leave more bars, and also not lower (scoop) the outer wall quarters. Then I'd bevel more, and depending on what everything looked like, I might leave more bar, back toe, etc. Only as needed, hoofs are always changing. At a later time, address the bars...say 3-4 weeks later. BUT, some believe that the bars go forward and build toe callous. I don't agree with that. Remember if you cut away everything in a hoof, and left the shell, you would have the hoof wall and the bars. Picture what a hoof print in the sand look like, wall, bars? The bars grow down like the wall, so why would you trim the wall, but not the bars? Or less on the bars? Your question is really one of those issues that it seems the experts differ on. My Strasser trained "guru" says most don't understand trimming the bars. (Or the Strasser method, but that's another discussion!) My conclusion is it depends on what the hoof is telling you it needs. So Ramey is correct (sometimes)that the hoof needs the excess bars to protect itself. My hoof friend is correct (sometimes) that the bars are causing all kinds of problems and need to be addressed. Now that everyone is more confused  It seems to be real difficult to say anything for sure, 100% of the time, because every horse, and every hoof, is different. Lovely, aye? Maybe what I will do over Christmas break is take pictures as I do a "tweak." They are 3 weeks Saturday, and it would be quick & easy. I have questions myself on Gem's hoofs; I'll run them by my helper, and see what others on here think. IF IT warms up, I'll get it done this year. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 15, 2009 - 6:40 pm: Dr.O. and all. I really scrutinized Hanks hoof when I got home, I really do need to address the hoofwall and flare. I hope you see why I say he has a never ending changing hoof, that is quite a challenge. Here lays my dilemma, and Dr.O. I hope you will chime in with your BEEEE sensible! Yesterday it actually warmed up to freezing, then we had rain on top of the lovely packed snow. It has now turned into ice peaks where they walk...I can feel them through my thick boots walking on them. Hank was standing outside when I got home and when I went to give them their "feed" in the lean to I noticed he stayed on the edges where there was a little soft snow that hadn't been packed down to "ice peaks". So that's when I checked his hooves over from the AP stand point they really don't look like they are running under YET. Balance definitely needs some work. Pulse is elevated in the cursed RF...the LF has been in all the pictures and the DP in that one is acceptable at this point. I threw their hay out on the ice peaks to see how he moved without sidling in the soft snow... I would call him tentative at this point... not stilty, not sore, not tippy toeing... but definitely not walking in a full stride and not playing ring around the hay leafs like he always does. Stopped at the first one and stayed there...not like him. SOOO after this long explanation, my fear is the bruised sole thing, that always starts us in a downward spiral. After much thought I am wondering is just lightly beveling his walls and trying to attain some balance slowly would be the way to go??? The 2 oldies walked over the ice peaks like they didn't even exist. I did takes some pics of the cursed RF today too. I don't want to be paralyzed by indecision, but don't want to start a downward spiral of bruised soles either.. Help RF.. which in a way looks better??? I think my farrier has a case of outside hoofwallitis  
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 15, 2009 - 6:48 pm: HMMMM I just got a nice little Christmas bonus...Dr. O would x-rays help me to figure this out...such as how thick his sole is and where we stand on rotation?? I like to spend my hard earned money on them
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 15, 2009 - 9:25 pm: Rachelle, he was standing in the lean-to when I got home this morning and took the pics. I also fed them this morning in there because of some dangerous windchills. I am certain that I didn't do it with the RR because I only went over them very lightly twice just so the hoof wall would be more visible in the pics, and the rasps are very dull, I haven't changed them out yet.I could spend my bonus on more bedding HMMM could be due to softness from the wet weather, that did cross my mind...but then again wouldn't that affect Sam and Flash too? Yes I have been ignoring his hooves Lack of time, light, and energy...too cold! It kills me to trudge through snow and cold all day...getting old and decrepit How can his hooves change so much in 2 weeks? And dare I mess with them when he is teetering on sore? |
| Member: scooter |
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 7:36 am: OK Dr.O I will get the scrub bucket out and scrub his hooves like I did for the "good pics" ( I really must love this horse to play in water at-2 degrees) Will try very hard to get appropriate pics. I don't want his hoof getting all mis-shapen again.... if it is. Hope I can fix this before Angie can't type! Thank you, I appreciate your and everyone's help more than you will ever know! |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 8:48 am: Diane,I am long past the delayed typing on this discussion!  Just typing slow and patient, some times it's best to keep it all on one discussion. Minus 7 here without windchill. I do hope to get pictures, step by step, as I do a trim. What you need to do, IMO, is really so simple, yet I know how intimidating it can be. If you once "see" what to do, it will click! I have complete faith you and Hank are both going to be happy and proud with super hoofs! |
| Member: vickiann |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 6:37 pm: Vicki Z. no snowball problems yet anyway, it's usually when they have shoes on that happens. Vaseline really doesn't work well didn't for me anyway, most of the no stick stuff lasts about an hour tops. As long as the horses hoof walls don't get long there usually isn't problems, I do appreciate the suggestion tho! You are very lucky you don't have to deal with snow/ice. Too dark when I got home for pics, and that really is a shame... it is amazing how a hoof can change day to day! I took a glance at Hanks hooves this morning when I fed to check for bruising, and you wouldn't believe how much bigger that "toe callous" is now...the thing grew huge literally overnight Makes me wonder if there is some truth to they grow what they need, because incidentally he was moving much nicer on the "ice peaks"... not 100% but very close. He also played ring around the hay bales tonight!  . I am going to have another late day tomorrow( the guy that helps me went to Fla. for a month!), so I won't be able to get the "good pics" until this weekend. I am going to try to get a pic of that toe callous when I feed in the morning...quite astonishing how it sprung up overnight. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 10:40 pm: Are toe callouses considered good or bad? Hank had some big ones last year too (was one of his sounder winters) Wonder why he gets such huge ones? I haven't seen him pawing much lately, but then again I haven't been around much in the daylight. I do see spots in the pasture that are "dug up" and would almost bet it was the Hank pig doing it. I don't think these things are normal from what I am reading? Sigh...
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