This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Hoof Care, Hoof Trimming, Shoeing Horses » Care of the Hoof: an Overview »
  Discussion on Diva Mare's Hooves Before/After Farrier Today
Author Message
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 9:43 pm:

Front legs. Shoes on 7 wks. Yes, she is pigeon toed.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 9:47 pm:

Now I tried to post a second time with front right pix and the upload wouldn't respond. I am beginning to think I laid on the cold concrete for nothing...



This is the only shot from far away. The other pix if I ever get them to load are close up.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 9:50 pm:

I can post them for you vicki if you can't get er' done.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 9:55 pm:

It's me. Operator error. The usual!!
Front right before/after farrier pulled shoes.


Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:00 pm:

Front Right after farrier work. Very little taken off. None taken off sole/frog.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:06 pm:

Right Hind Before/After



She had sprung the outside of right hind sometime the last 24 hrs.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:11 pm:

Left Hind Before/After Farrier

Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:17 pm:

Oops. 3rd picture in last post is left front--ignore that one.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:23 pm:

Front Left Before/After Farrier

Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:25 pm:

And finally just one shot of a great barefoot Haflinger...
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:27 pm:

Ok Diane, tell me the tricks for better pictures...
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:28 pm:

Vicki,

Before I make my comments. What exactly is the farrier measuring in the last set of pictures?
I am also wondering what you thought after the trim?

Rachelle
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:30 pm:

He wasn't measuring anything. I asked him to hold up that flat piece so I could visualize the 1/3 2/3 thing...not his fault.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:34 pm:

The lights in the barn didn't show as much as the camera flash, but the flash seems to cause a problem seeing the bevel. There appeared to be more looking at it in the barn. No nippers. Believe it or not, she looks better than she did 6 mos ago.

Let 'er rip girls. Tell me what you see and don't see that you should see.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:35 pm:

I could clearly see her white line in all four hooves in the barn, but it doesn't show in the pictures at all.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:43 pm:

The front shoes were St. Croix Eventers which helped move back her break over (according to the farrier). The hind shoes were Grand Circuit Shapers. If that makes any difference.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:45 pm:

Your pictures are better than mine!

This is interesting, I hope the hoof gurus and Dr.O. comment. The before pics do show a long toe and underrun heel, she could have been sore because of that,in the after pics something just doesn't look right, but can't put my finger on it Her hairline looks wavy and puffiness above the coronet band?? Is that the picture. Looks puffy around the fetlock too?

Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:58 pm:

The heels were underrun when I got her...been working slowly on that but had the big set back last Dec-Feb with the farrier troubles. Also had long toes, been working on that... The shoes on the hind were stuck out a bit more than "usual"--whatever that is--to help give support to the heel...? One hind, can't remember which now, was broken out on the outside and filled with acrylic when I got her. That is all grown out now.

Not sure about the puffiness. It's cold here and everyone is puffed out! I didn't feel swelling when I cleaned her feet before farrier got here. He didn't mention any swelling--normally he would say something.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 10:59 pm:

Mind you I have no idea what I'm talking about usually, it appears she has a flare like Hank did...it only showed up in pics...I didn't see it looking at his hoof...was a weird thing like a wrinkle in his hoof..but gone now.






Hanks 2007


Look forward to others comments...I'm still trying to learn!
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 11:03 pm:

The flash is goofing something up with color. My nail polish is a deep, deep burgundy and in the pictures, it looks bright red. ?
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 11:10 pm:

Something about pictures...perhaps they show more of the imperfections than I can see? He put the clear shiny stuff on the hooves after he was finished; I was hoping it would show the outer hoof wall rings, dips, etc. better than the crummy dirt...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 11:19 pm:

I think I know what doesn't look right to me...her whole hoof looks too far forward...not under her so to speak. Her breakover could definitely be causing her loping problems...or not helping them anyway. Rolling her toe would probably help a bunch

Enough from me, I only know enough to be dangerous
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 11:30 pm:

Are you talking about in the front or all around?

When I look at the pictures her foot looks different than in the barn. I'm going to try to take "similar" pix in the daylight without a flash. Something just isn't right--whether it's all her feet which are wrong or some of the flash/distortion ? They look long, low, flat in the pix to me. But what do I know?

I'm off to google good feet.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 11:48 pm:

Vicki, when I started taking pictures of Hanks hooves is when I realized just how bad they were... Pictures can be a bit deceiving, angles, lighting ect... but there are still some tell tale signs of problems regardless. They do LOOK long, low, flat, and forward, and if indeed they are...let's get them fixed and let me tell you it can be a bit overwhelming.... but well worth getting the beautiful canter back

Good Luck reading....be careful you really have to wade through some of the stuff....start with Dr.O.'s hoof articles...they are the BEST!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 6:58 am:

Vicki,

I shouldn't comment so early in the morning perhaps, tee hee, but here goes:

If you see any of the coronet band pushed up, that means the hoof wall has been left too long there, like at her quarters. If it seems short enough already, just put a steeper bevel at the quarters.

I THINK that could cause the flare all the way up the hoof wall, right? The bulge like on Hanks.


The pictures with your pretty thumbnail in them, it would be easier to see looking from the heel to the toe, so if you could rotate them, that would be helpful. (sorry, I know posting pics on here can be a pain sometimes!)

We need a full side view to see shoulder angles, and to see how a line falling through her cannon bone intersects with her heel point.

I don't see any bevel? Just a hoof prepared for shoeing?

I can't tell if there is much depth along side the frogs (collaterol groove...good Lord I can never tell if I spell that correct or NOT, lol!)

They look low and flat to me too, hinds more than front, but I might change my opinion after more coffee and breakfast, ha ha!

What I would do is keep beveling on a tight schedule, every 3 weeks. That alone has proven for me anyhow, to give the best & fastest results to getting a better hoof.

DrO,

Do you think this mare has contracted heels?

Vicki,

One bit of advice, you said you had info over load: DO NOT read EVERYTHING about trimming and hoofs from many different sources. I did that and it was overwhelming! Ramey and Bowaker(?) (caffiene has not kicked in yet!)are good sources. The HappyHoof gal on YouTube has some good videos.

What to do is simple to trim yourself and get better hoofs when you know some guidelines; the knowledge behind those guidelines...that's mega learning though.

I might have to ask my hoof guru some questions, I AM NOT a hoof guru myself.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 7:20 am:

Angie I was wondering if she had contracted heels too.

See how Hanks hoof above is rolled at the toe and how Diva's looks flat and long. Hank still had problems then, but keeping the toe rolled helped bring his toe back and his breakover.

It really appears her toes and heels need to be brought back.

Heel purchase as Rachelle said in Hanks thread looks weak.

Rachelle help me put this in words!!! before my elec goes out!
Like Angie I can see what is wrong but have a VERY hard time verbalizing things (you may have noticed that before)
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 8:05 am:

Thanks ladies for taking the time to look and post.

I have read everything on HA it seems multiple times about hooves (and lots of other topics) since I've joined. After the big scare (at least for me) last Jan/Feb, I tried to learn as much as possible because depending solely on my farrier at the time got me into trouble. Of course, she didn't come with perfect feet either. I'm a worry wart since I know my experience/expertise is severely limited. The Haffies feet are/were easy, so this is all new territory. All of the sudden last Feb, I felt like a crummy pleasure horse owner because I was so ignorant of feet. Never had to know about feet because I had no problems. Duh. Felt like an idiot for remaining ignorant so long that perhaps I helped make Diva mare worse. I've had such a time finding/getting/keeping a farrier, that I hesitate to start telling the professional how to do his job, especially when I'm not too knowledgeable--info overload and practice experience underload. I don't want to be "that customer", who annoys the professional, yakking and demanding stuff that she really knows zero about. I ask a million questions and both have been quite nice about talking/teaching. I pay them for their extra time. I tip. I thank them profusely for tolerating my ignorance... Farrier #2 and #3 have good credentials. #2 has excellent, lengthy credentials except for that showing up thing... #3 is reliable and open to suggestions. He is vet tech at PU and does their farrier work. I tried to find/pay for the best care, but it is tough to FIND people who want to mess with coming for only three horses. When we got into trouble last Jan/Feb, my local vet was pretty sure it was founder and wanted to wait and see. I didn't want to wait. I called Purdue right away and out they came. It was toe bruising, no founder, no rotation. I know PU isn't KY or MSU, but is still well respected around here; I was hoping I was getting good info. Equine vet said probably going to always need shoes in the front. No one has ever said anything about contracted heels. Everyone has mentioned long toes. None are trained w/ Ramey barefoot philosophy. #2 was heavy into shoeing for the show world of dressage, hunter, eventing, jumper flying all over the place. It is his full time job. #3 shoes mainly for western trail, cutting horses, pleasure and shoes as a 2nd job. #3 said last night often the equine house/farm calls they make are for treating the owners more than the horses. I laughed and said, "I'm probably in that category, but at least I keep the economy stimulated and give the vet students something to do."

So, there is the history of my shrieking paranoia. And my saga about farriers. If that helps anyone get a perspective on what I've been trying to do.

I wonder if he only beveled the toes a little thinking the barefoot thing wouldn't last and he'd be back soon to put on shoes and snow pads. There is a bevel, but it isn't high and doesn't seem to show in the pictures at all. Or be back to put on the filler/caulk--can't remember this option right now. ??? I have explained several times I won't be offended. Tell me whatever I should be doing, and I'll do it.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 8:06 am:

Vicki,

Your answer to my question was exactly what I thought, but I didn't want to say anything because he could have been measuring something else.

So, to see where you are at as far as the 1/3, 2/3 issue. The measurement must be taken at the widest part of the foot, not across the tip (apex) of the frog.

By doing that you could see that this mare's foot had too much toe in front and making it difficult for her to break over ( long toe, low heel).

You said she is pidgeon-toed, but what I see is that her frog lays over to the inside indicating that the inside is the high side and needs to be taken down and if you look at the front shot, I see it there too.

I do not believe in using a longer shoe for support, as the foot will grow to the shoe causing the underun heels. by this I mean, its ok to have at most 1/4 " at the back of the shoe, but anything more is a waste and will cause you problems in the long run( as you are seeing).

I'd get a riders rasp and start working on her feet more often, you'll find that less drastic tweaks will work wonders and you'll have the foot problems and soundness problems under control much more quickly.

So, much for my 2 cents worth.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 8:21 am:

Vicki I still have a hard time describing what I want done to the farrier..my story is very similar to yours as far as farriers go.

I gave up for awhile to re-group. Was afraid Dr.O. and members would get sick of listening to my stupid questions.(they hung in there with me tho..thankfully)

Persistence and nagging did pay off in the long run

How is Diva doing without the shoes? You will get many opinions, take them all into consideration and think about them. Perhaps another set of x-rays would help to see how her hoof has done over the last year If the sole is thickening, or staying the same.. ect. Help place breakover.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 8:21 am:

After someone posted about Dr. Bowker at MSU and the Corona Vista Equine Center, I looked that up and read for a long time (my husband is about to kill me for the time I spend on this computer the past 18 months). I printed out several pages with pictures. The Trimming 1-2-3 seemed easy enough to remember. Heels Short, Toes Short, & 1/3 and 2/3 proportions. When I look at the pictures and compare them to Diva's, I see the bevel or roll is much higher on the example hoof. I don't see much difference on the heels. ? I think I need a cadaver foot or model to hold, look at, and set next to Diva's! I reread all of my info before the farrier came last night.

I wonder how much info he holds back? I think of myself when a parent would ask about their child in my classroom. I never would be brutally frank because very few people can take such as assessment about their offspring.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 8:43 am:

"So, to see where you are at as far as the 1/3, 2/3 issue. The measurement must be taken at the widest part of the foot, not across the tip (apex) of the frog."

Rachelle, when I look at the Haflinger foot I posted, and try to visually mark the 1/3, 2/3 at the widest part of the hoof, his foot doesn't look right either. Am I seeing that correctly? I've been told often how great their feet are--are they? Neither have ever been lame. ? I get confused seemingly over this and it should be simple to see. Very frustrating.

Thanks for posting. She definitely needs improvement. I didn't see anyone's post before I did my postings this morning--got a phone call in the middle of typing!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 8:56 am:

"I'd get a riders rasp and start working on her feet more often, you'll find that less drastic tweaks will work wonders and you'll have the foot problems and soundness problems under control much more quickly."

Vicki,

I would live by Rachelle's words in your place.

Try to get an understanding on beveling at the toe at the correct angle from underneath. It scared me to do that, but once I got it, I started seeing a big difference. I THINK, please don't take this as the gospel, that it's 65 degrees at the toe, 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock, then 45 degrees the rest of the bevel.

What I do now is I rasp level across the toe, rasp flat. Yup, sole and walls are pretty much the same, BUT, I am NOT taking off sole at the toe. Then I rasp at the angle, 10 - 2 o'clock area. I am taking off just a smidgen over all, remember I am doing this every 2 or 3 weeks.

I look at the rest of the hoof, take a few swipes if needed, straight out, and then with the rasp laying the same angle as the collateral grooves I do the heel, leaving the walls and bars a tad above the sole EXCEPT for at the toe.

Doing this I am getting toe callous and concavity.

On flat feet, I don't "scoop" at the quarters because I believe the hoof needs more support. BUT, if the wall isn't too thin there, and there is unevenness, then I put a sharper bevel on the too high side.

I use the rasp vertically to back the toe, and take off any extra wall that needs removing to keep the wall even all around.

My horses have not been touched by a nippers for almost 3 years now. Rasp, hoof pick, and hoof knife, all I use.

All 16 are not perfect yet (16 hoofs, not 16 horses!) I should post some pictures of Gem's hoofs.

Knowing what you want for an end result is only part of the deal; knowing how much to do, and when to do it, that is another story.

Simple version: Do what Rachelle suggests to start. As you learn and gain confidence, add more steps. Keep posting pictures as you go along!

Regarding what you see on Bowker's pages, vs what you've got? You don't have a barefoot trim. Bevel, bevel, back, back, bevel!!
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 9:09 am:

When I was reading about Bowker, I ran across a "find a barefoot practitioner" site. The following are in my state. Should I call a barefoot trimmer? If so, which one? All are under 2 hours away. I'm a more than a little chicken to pick up a rasp and work on her feet.

John Neuhausel, Mooresville, Indiana - Phone: 317-996-4550 or 317-502-6805 - E-mail address: bn2170 @ aol.com I am an AANHCP certified natural trim practitioner and field instructor. Have studied under Jaimie Jackson, Pete Ramey, and Cindy Sullivan. (04/07)

Michael Murray, Bloomington, Indiana - Photo: 812-876-3106, Email: michaelm @ bluemarble.net
Natural hoof care specialist, natural trainer. Specializing in natural hoof care and training for troubled horses, plus a natural boarding and rehab facility available. (01/09)

Julie Elsner, Noblesville, Indiana - phone: (317) 698-3142 - e-mail: jelsner @ balancednaturally.net - website: www.balancednaturally.net
Natural Hoof Care Practitioner, AANHCP and Easy Care Hoof Boot Distributor. (08/07)

Sue Schnur, Kirklin, Indiana, willing to travel IN, IL, KY, OH and MI. - 317-710-0545 (cell) , website: www.harmonynaturalhorsecare.com
AANHCP PT. Have been trimming for several years for friends and family. Attended clinics with Jaime Jackson and Pete Ramey. Studied Dr. Bowker’s and Dr Strasser’s research materials. My ultimate teacher is the horse, who is continuously teaching me. (03/08)
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 9:31 am:

I'd go with the first one there. If you keep reading, and studying pictures, watching a good barefoot trimmer a few times may be all you need to gain confidence to pick up the rasp yourself.

You can always use a professional until the hoofs are in the best form they can be, then it will be easy to take over maintenance. Just take your time getting to know whoever you go with, some get really defensive if you are not going to remain a loyal customer. Depends on if it's their only job or not many times.

Sure wish I would have had one nearby to guide me, you are lucky if you can get someone.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 10:03 am:

Vicki,

Halfies foot is much better balanced. Has a good proportion less in front of the widest part and more behind. You should use that foot as an example.

In the beginning, you do not need a rasp, riders rasp is fine.

Try just doing it a little at at time. Just do the toe and the high side(inside). Set the foot down and see if she doesn't look less toed in. You won't hurt her if, you do a little at a time.This would be the best as she looks like she might have some conformation issues. But it might also be her trim.

Rachelle
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 11:47 am:

Got the usual when I called the first name on the list...not taking new clients. Everyone must be making enough money. He referred me to the 3rd person on the list. Left her a message. Both the 1st and 3rd people on the list are an hour and 15 min away. Not bad.

#2 is almost two hours south. #4 is 40 min away and she is now listed on the AANHCP site as a CP not PT.

Thanks Angie and Rachelle! And yes, she does have some conformation issues.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 11:56 am:

"Knowing what you want for an end result is only part of the deal; knowing how much to do, and when to do it, that is another story."


Want = Sound, comfortable horse
How = Mysterious as Brain Surgery
When = Mysterious as Brian Surgery

Seriously, it would be easier for me to pick a plastic surgeon to buy myself a face lift than it is to find a professional to take care of my horse's feet.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 12:13 pm:

In preparation for the ugly weather forecast, I raked Diva's dry lot as level as I could get it. It is Equiterr plastic flooring filled with angular, fine #12 stone. Hopefully it will freeze (lots of freezing rain predicted here, goody.) without too many peaks and valleys for her to bruise her newly barefoot tootsies. Her stall is always open to the dry lot. She has two full bales of straw for bedding on her rubber mats which are on top of Equiterr flooring. The girl should have some cushion for her new barefoot condition. She seemed fine the two hours I was out there. I groomed her body while she was munching away, but left her feet alone. I'll go back out later and clean them. Take her out of the stall and walk her. Maybe try to get some pics with her standing on a rubber mat as the concrete isn't super level in the aisle.

I remind myself of when my first born came home from the hospital. We lived in a four room house. I had a baby monitor. The house was only 1000 sq. ft...surely I could have heard her without a baby monitor, but we would sit by that stupid monitor almost breathless during dinner, waiting for something...LOL.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 12:19 pm:

Hmmmm...well, can't help you on buying a new face, and I think I'd be a tad more worried about picking up a scalpel than a hoof knife,Or picking some one to use them on me or my horse!

Another thing I found out was handling a knife and rasp is different than handling other tools. I used to be tool pre-setter as well as ran an assortment of machines and hand tools. I think trimming hoofs is more like being an artist than a surgeon, but of course some misinformed hoof trimmers do DO surgery, not intentionally!

Rachelle,

You are such a voice of reason! I should let you answer every hoof question first before I babble on,
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 12:29 pm:

I couldn't agree more Angie, "more artist than surgeon". I could never be one of those people who sculpt crowns either for dental work... I'd over think it, worry, and be paralyzed sitting in front of the table of tools. LOL.

There are a lot of things in life where I just jump right in there and get moving, but hoof trimming just isn't one of them. I hope I can get a trimmer to come so I can see what one correctly trimmed should look like.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 1:10 pm:

Well, I'm sure glad you got those shoes off! They looked to be set too far forward to me, but then I rarely see a horse in conventional shoes that I don't think that, so it could just be me! She looks like she's trimmed pretty short for just having her shoes pulled--is she "ouchy?" Whether you need a barefoot trimmer is best answered by how willing your current farrier is to make some changes. Does he do any reading or continuing eduation clinic type stuff? Since he also does your Halflinger, I think he knows what a balanced hoof should look like. In that picture, (the halfie) had he completed his trim? The walls don't look as if he did anything. If that's the way he leaves them, that would explain why there's no toe callous. Anyway, you do have a lot to think about and keep in mind, if she's not tender after removing the shoes, you're way ahead of the game.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 1:13 pm:

Boy, I can hardly wait until Dr. O gets to this and simplifies things for you--now that we've all muddied the waters a bit (a LOT).
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 1:44 pm:

This address had good pictures for me. Anybody disagree with the info? I wouldn't ever try a rocker toe myself--sounds pretty drastic for a chicken like me.
https://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Breakover.html
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 3:32 pm:

Divas hoof does look quite a bit like the "domestic" hoof on that web page doesn't it?

Vicki I still get confused a bit, but at least I am to the point of knowing what I DON'T want Hanks hoof to look like.

The riders rasp is very easy to use (dummy proof), you have to be careful not to make Diva sore along the way, as Angie has said to me the slow but sure method works much better. I'm thinking you might be able to get that lope back once she is "more comfortable in her hooves"
Good Luck and don't get overwhelmed I have seen much worse hooves come together.

The vet, farrier, and I all have different opinions on Hanks hoof...I decided to stick with mine!
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 4:41 pm:

she is pretty ouchy in the front this afternoon. she did let me lead her out and clean all four and snap some pix with no resistance. she turned in a tight circle but slowly, carefully. stumbled twice in front going back to her heavily bedded stall...She hasn't gone out to the dry lot all day.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 5:48 pm:

Vicki I know what you are going through I couldn't stand seeing Hank so sore after a trim or pulling his shoes.

Give her a gram of bute AM and PM(if she can have it) and keep her on soft ground, you have to worry about bruising.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 6:03 pm:

Don't have any bute, but I can get some tomorrow. I've seen her more sore (last feb); however it hasn't been 24 hrs yet since the shoes were pulled...probably going to get worse. Farrier replied a few minutes ago he had:

"... I have her toe already rolled back to the whiteline as far as I can without going into the whiteline. Boots could help, there are many varieties on the market. I do have another client that uses the Ole Mac brand and is pleased with them. She uses them year round for riding and doesn’t put shoes on anymore. Each brand has directions on how to measure the foot to get the appropriate size. Keep applying the Keratex to see if we can toughen the sole and keep me posted on her progress or lack there of. Just let me know if you want to give her time on her own or put shoes back on or try boots. I willing to do what ever you would like to try. She is definitely a tender foot!"

So, the farrier is willing to work with me. Very pleasant guy. BUT. Do I know enough to make the call here? How sore is too sore? How sore before bruising, laminitis,... Nothing I've read says succinctly, "this _____________ (behavior) is too sore, do this ___________ to prevent _____________. " I need to reread HA lame diagnosis discussions I guess! Being the ultimate responsible party is such a guilty trip!

I have her heavily bedded.

Raining here. 33 degrees. Wintry mix forecast--perfect for ice!


Thanks for posting. I've worried myself into having an adult beverage.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 6:28 pm:

Well FME I keep very close track of the DP and check for heat in the hoof. Hanks DP usually told me the whole story, if it stayed throbbing for too long I panicked! Bute usually brought it down to something I could except.

Vicki your farrier sounds very much like mine. I really wonder about him sometimes, but he is a good guy and tries his heart out. I was scared to tell him what I wanted for fear of not knowing what I was talking about. Her toe doesn't look rolled in the pictures. SOOO I started taking pictures after every trim, when he came the next time I would take them out after studying them and asking questions here and tell him what my goal was for that trim... didn't always work

Hank usually had barefoot shock 24-48 hrs. after pulling his shoes. I used Old Macs for a year off and on. They do make them more comfortable, but Hanks hoof changed so often I ended up with 3 pair of expensive boots and none of them fit!

The best thing I used was the comfort pads duct taped on, he lived in them for awhile. When it was slick out I wrapped them in vet wrap for grip.

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=b2db5e41-96ff-4633-b5ee-6fa2b1d86 3aa
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 8:34 pm:

Vicki,

Relax and take a deep breath, no one said this was going to be an easy process. Anything you can put on her feet, that would raise her up off the ground will work in a pinch. Diapers, Depends, even a wad of cotton use vet rap or ducttape and give it a few days. Don't make her go anywhere she does not want to go and leave her feet alone, don't pick them out or anything ( Makes her put weight on the opposite foot that hurts too).

The best boots I've found for situations like this are made by Plum Shade Farm. They are called hoof wraps here is the link.
https://www.hoofwraps.com

They are one size fits all and they do. I've used them on a number of different horses with different size feet.

To make them last longer ( I was using them to jog in) I use Gorilla Duct tape on the bottoms and then replace the tape as it gets worn. They usually come with a pastern wrap to protect against chafeing. I did not use the pastern wrap and I did not have any problems. The pad on the bottom that comes as part of the boot is at least 1/2 inch thick, but I see on their web site that they have a new gel pad, but you probably won't need it.

Ok, now for my lecture.
This is a learning experience for you, the next time you will be properly prepared with boots and or medication. Your horse will live through whatever pain she is going through and come out on the other side just fine. They are meant to heal fast, its part of their nature and necessary for their survival.

If she were mine, I would have pulled her shoes and not trimmed her for about 10 days ( Diane can attest to the not trimming method) and then only trimmed to balance her which would have been not much.

I look at it like this, she was at 7 weeks between trims ( a tad too long). You pulled her shoes off that she was used to. By doing this everything she was used to changed, her angles and toe length were different etc. etc. She already has some conformation issues, so on top of the issues with her feet, her bony column has to adjust too. FME it takes up to 72 hours for horses to adjust to slight changes and it can take much longer when it is a major change (s)as it is in her case. So, give her some time, don't be in a rush to put shoes back on, try the boots and pretty soon you'll be in Diane's camp of having super feet on a horse that just about everyone said could never go barefoot.

Ok, I'm done with the lecture.

Rachelle
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 9:08 pm:

Thanks Rachelle. I told my farrier in advance what I wanted to do. He is the vet tech who has been present for both vet calls regarding her feet (toe bruising, xrays, shots, floating, etc.) He knows she is a "tenderfoot". Wonder why he didn't suggest any of the preventative steps you outlined? Your advice sounds like good common sense. Why didn't I read any of it when I spent so much time reading about barefoot, transition from shoes, etc. on so many different sites? Maybe I missed something. ? And tonight when I spoke with the farrier, he never once mentioned bute. She isn't miserable (yet?), but she is ouchy. Hmmm. I'm trying to step forward and I wind up taking a two steps backward and poor Diva mare is the one who suffers. I'd rather have the sore feet and she could carry the guilt. I am a week behind on farrier schedule because the trainer started her a week later. We wanted to keep her another week, but I said no, had to get to the farrier... Be nice if I could do it all myself. I ordered the riders rasp.

Hope you are keeping dry. It's crappy here but at least it's rain not snow.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 10:44 pm:

Vicki I don't know if you have read Dr.O.'s article on bruised feet/problems following trimming shoeing.

There really are many good articles in here on hooves and you won't get confused reading everything else on the net

If you get bored go to that section and read my posts on shoeing bruised feet there are 4 parts Lot of good info there and you can see the struggle I have gone through until now and the continuing education I have got! Divas hooves aren't half as bad as Hanks were.

https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/8111.html
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 11:04 pm:

Oh and Rachelle is absolutely right, do not trim when pulling shoes...that could have saved me a lot of grief in years gone by. Then go to the "less is more" Angie has been pounding into my brain. With the articles, Dr.O., and the members that "know their hooves" you can figure it out.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 11:49 pm:

Just got home from basketball, so skimmed through the advice others gave. (just started snowing like h**l! Glad everyone got home safe)

FYI, I copied one of the sole pictures, sent it to my hoof guru as I am not familiar with contracted heels. (For my knowledge, not to step on any ones toes,hope that's o.k. I did that?) Her reply was "slight contraction, doesn't need much but some beveling. It will take care of itself."

That's just on the sole picture remember.

SO, back to "less is more."

I've never dealt with pain from pulling shoes, but when I goofed on Tango, it about ripped my heart out to see him suffer. I am so glad I did NOT go out and buy boots!

He was very sore, with elevated DP for about 4 days. It was totally a trimming error, a "mechanical problem" so to speak. I was expecting him to walk on a toe, without callous being there first, and I was not beveling the walls enough all around, especially at the quarters.

And I could not touch anything until he grew more hoof to work with! You can't fix too short!

As pointed out, everything changed with the trim, and it is a temporarily issue.

You would think your farrier would have known what Rachelle pointed out! I think like can happen to any of us though, they kinda go on auto pilot some times.

She'll be fine. Really! And so will you.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 9, 2009 - 6:43 am:

Angie,

Just to let you know, I think boots are more for the owner, than the horse, sort of like the vet giving a horse antibiotics for a snotty nose because the owner wants the horse treated. The vet knows the antibiotics do nothing, but they do it to make the owner feel better ( not the horse).

Its gonna take as much time as it takes, with or without the boots, just like the snotty nose!

Vicki,
So, here is another piece of advice, forewarned is forearmed as they say. Angie's advice of less is more holds true here.

The next time your farrier comes out to trim her, it should be a finesse job, a little here and there, just to balance and fix the high parts. Sometimes its hard for owners to justify, the less is more situation and they get upset when they have to pay full price for a very conservative trim ( not your case here) and they end up right back in the same boat, blaming the lack of shoes ( being barefoot) for their horses problems.

The ideal situation is for you to tweak her feet on a continuing basis, so that the farrier has to do nothing, so eventually the farrier visits become further and further apart and you are dealing with the feet issues on an ongoing basis.

I have a 19 year old standardbred gelding in my backyard. I can count on one hand how many times in the last 15 years he has been trimmed. His feet are just fine, for his environment ( which right now, is about 1 1/2 feet of mud). every time I go out to look at his feet, there is nothing I need to do to them, so, I don't.

As you learn what to trim and what not to trim and when, you will be able to guide your farrier( he sounds like he will be easy to work with) and maybe you will be able to teach him something along the way.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 9, 2009 - 9:21 am:

Vicki, Angie and Rachelle give good advice as usual. Divas hooves should be fairly easy to fix. I can now let Hank go 8 weeks and not panic. I would try just rasping on Diva, it is working out very well for "tenderfoot" Hank. My vet said Hank was not a barefoot canidate after looking at his last x-rays...I didn't think so either.

One thing I found out along our journey was wet/mud was not our friend. He definitely walked very nicely on it because it was soft, but when the ground hardened he would get VERY ouchy because his thin sole got soft, try to keep her hooves dry as possible. Another thing I found out accidentally was thrushbuster(formaldehyde) really helped in toughening up his soles. Not cheap stuff, but well worth it! I still apply it once a week for the sole hardening effect. Don't overdue as they can get too dry. IMHO is worked way better then keratex or durasole.

I see a part 2 coming getting slow loading!
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 9, 2009 - 11:12 am:

Thanks Ladies. Diva mare is still moving fine in her heavily bedded stall, her eyes look bright, ears are forward, and the usual stall pace before feeding time. However, she usually jumps at the gelding next to her (as if she could do anything with the stall divider between them...) and pins her ears and makes a fuss as if he is going to leap the divider and steal her food. She still hasn't left the stall; however, neither have the Haffies with this stupid weather. It rained buckets all night at 33 degrees and the east wind howling. The wind picked up this morning, came out of the west, and we have horizontal straight line snow/sleet and 31 degrees. Pretty darn icky out there but nothing on the ground...well, mud. Their dry lots have no mud, wet stone, but no mud. However, no one seems too excited to stand in the relentless wind and get spit on. They do stand at the door ways and stick their faces out far enough to get damp.

I will start another discussion. This one is way long. Diane, I've read all four of Hank's discussions, more than once... I appreciate your posts and others help.

I wonder if perhaps my farrier just assumed I would have some common sense and didn't want to offend me? Maybe. I've known him long enough (prior to horse owning), he should feel comfortable pointing out the obvious to me, but he is distracted right now with his personal life, as well as trying to make a living, work two jobs, sell his house, etc. Life gets in the way sometimes. I did have diapers, leg bandages/wraps, and the usual first aid stuff on hand. But no Bute. I threw mine out--very out of date. I'll call my local vet today for a scrip. Being out of Bute is probably as stupid as being without a thermometer for the house, asprin...etc.

One of my first comments to Denny when I arrived, was, "Act as if I know nothing. It will be better that way." Maybe I need to tell my farrier again.

I ordered the wraps. I measured for boots, but like some of you have more or less said, avoid them if possible. Right?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 9, 2009 - 11:43 am:

Vicki I think boots have there place. I did not like them for turnout for the fact Hanks hooves turned to mush having them on so much, then he got terrible thrush and WLD

Sam also went through a barefoot transition a few years ago, his wasn't near as traumatic as Hanks. I used the old macs for riding and they helped him immensely. I think Diva will be more like Sam, it took him awhile and he got pretty sore also. My old farrier trashed all of their hooves not just Hanks. Hank was dealing with other things too.

UMMM what size did Diva measure? Sams Old Macs are well used, but you are more then welcome to have them and see if they work. I won't need them again. I know Hanks wouldn't fit her...too big.

I rode Sam for 2 years in the old macs and occasional turnout, otherwise I would have had to put shoes on him. He went barefoot after the transition and his old macs collect dust now, but it was one of the best investments I made in his case.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 9, 2009 - 12:06 pm:

Vicki,

I tried to tape some foam on Tango's front hoofs 2 days in a row. What a headache! I left him in my round pen, which is partial sand, even put a temp fence across the round pen to make sure his feet were only in the sand. Talk about heart attack time for me! My hoof guru, Joni, kept reassuring me "Angie, he'll be fine. I wouldn't even Bute him, he's not foundering, it's a trim issue, he'll move as much as he's comfortable, no need for boots."

I did NOT believe her! I came really close to ordering boots, but couldn't decide which ones, and before I made a decision, Tango was moving pain free. IN fact, once his hoof grew out a wee bit, and, AND...I got the beveling concept down, and a bit of an adjustment to heels/bars, he's been MORE SOUND, more freely moving, than EVER! I've owned him 6 1/2 years now, so that says something.

Ramey spends a lot of time talking about boots. Yet even on the DVD about rehabbing a foundered horse, the boots are not used very long. I think he puts them on after the first trim, tweaks the horse one week later, and the horse may wear them another week or 2.

Why? Because the hoof will not get tough if it's in the boot.

I share these things with you because Diva mare is not as bad off as Tango was, nor is she foundered. Just to give you some perspective for comparison.

I bet by the time you get the wraps, you won't need them! Good to have on hand though, along with one soaking medicine boot if you ever have a hoof injury, but you don't have that.

Yes, start a part two please. I am waaay too sleep deprived to wait for letters to appear, lol!!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 9, 2009 - 12:30 pm:

SEE how many varying opinions you can get

As far as boots I think they are good for riding the thin soled horse until they get thicker soles, hard ground and rocks can bring them to their knees and they can bruise easily. Not so much for turnout, they can learn to adjust "on their own terms" by avoiding such ground or not moving.

Hank was completely unrideable one summer, Sam was sore when being ridden..was fine in pasture, the old macs kept me in the saddle and Sam very comfortable on any terrain(no sidling)!, and they stay on great through everything.
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC