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Discussion on Diva Mare Transition to Barefoot III
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 7:43 pm:
Angie, it looks like 40 to 60 posts, depending on how long/how many pictures, is the max before you have slow load issues, so here's the new discussion.
Update: Boots and wraps came today but I didn't get home until late and haven't read the instructions yet, so no boot/wrap wear to report.
As temps were forcasted to be "warmer" earlier in the week, I figured Diva would be more than ready to mosey about. So I gave her a dose of Naproxen w/ unsweetened applesauce over her feed on Mon PM, Tues AM/PM and Wed AM/PM--since my boots/wraps weren't here yet and I didn't opt for my "diaper" wraps. She seemed to be in and out much more Tues afternoon and today. I have never felt heat in any of her feet and can see no bruising yet. She will turn on her haunches and on the forehand in the stall which is still deeply bedded with straw. In the stone dry lot she walks with a short stride but not as stilted as a few days ago. This is day 9. She stood out there for a few hours in a row soaking up the sun and napping as did the Haffies. She didn't appear to be uncomfortable. No rocking back. I did as Rachelle suggested and left her feet alone other than to pick the fronts up (while on the deep straw) to check for heat/bruising. She never resisted. Judging by the shape of the straw every morning, she is laying down quite a bit.
I always look at eyes. Her eye looks fine and bright now (time? naproxen? tiny bit better sole?). Whatever the case, she looks like she feels ok with her situation. I wouldn't trust her unprotected on uneven, frozen ground however. Still think that would be disastrous. She jumps at the Haffies with her fake alpha mare crap, has kicked the stall wall a couple of times, does a mini rear (really a hop of about 6 inches high)--all this posturing is at feeding time and is her usual silliness. That all stops when I'm in there. So, normal behavior. I think it was the 5th day before I saw this normal behavior.
I'll figure out the boots and the wraps/pads and try them for a short turnout tomorrow if the weather is cooperative.
If anyone has a comments, insight, etc. with what I'm doing (not much) so far, post away.
The Riders Rasp hasn't arrived yet.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 8:32 pm:
Vicki sounds like you are doing everything right . The only thing I would suggest is not turning her out with pain relievers in her system, sometimes it makes them feel better than they really are....been there done that, with very bad results
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 16, 2009 - 8:50 pm:
good point diane. Certainly don't want her yahooing it up high on naproxen feel goods after being cooped up (even tho she has dry lot)... I'll have to reread how long that stays in her system...she got her PM dose.
The only other change I made was feed. When Denny had her he was feeding 2# feed and 2 flakes of grass hay 2x a day. I cut the feed to 3/4 lb. since I knew she'd be standing around. Actually I'm using the ration balancer rather than the Purina Strategy feed.
Not sure how long I should wait before I try to bevel...the riders rasp isn't even here yet, but I'll probably post pictures before I touch anything. That way you all can tell me to touch them or wait for more hoof.
Her feet are dry, not in mud, muck, or urine. Lovely straw. I've used about nine bales of straw in a 12x12 stall in 9 days... diva mattress afterall...
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 - 7:23 am:
Sounds good Vicki, my only thought to add is I think all horses walk "ouchy" on frozen ground and that would be a hard thing to judge in my opinion. Unless you mean ouchy on level frozen ground. Which I never seem to have because their hoofs chew it up before it freezes.
Looking forward to pictures. I still believe nature knows best, and hoofs do adapt to their environment, it's US that mess things up for them!
Thanks for taking time to count how many posts before I get slow typing; I haven't even done that, lol! I appreciate the part III! It also means you value my opinion, aww shucks, gosh darn. I may need to buy a bigger hat.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 - 9:33 am:
I "went barefoot" with my 4 horses about 2 years ago. Each one has responded differently, so be prepared to see "ups and downs" during the first 3-6 months. It is true that EVERY horse is somewhat stilted on frozen ground without shoes (or even with shoes) so don't read too much into that. Good luck - she'll get better - just don't get disappointed if she is not 100% in a month - she probably won't be.
Do not bevel the hind feet - they need the straight edge to grab onto the ground - you can bevel the front feet probably on a weekly basis depending on how fast her feet grow. Trust your instincts!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 - 6:44 pm:
Glad you mentioned the hinds nancy!
I was hoping Diva would be light trail/arena rideable by May....
She's scheduled to go back to Denny the end of February, but if she's not ready, she won't go. Don't want to send Denny a case for a nursemaid...
Diva looks more ouchy on the frozen ground than the Haffies do, but not awful. (At a walk and she picks where she walks.)
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 8:15 pm:
Ta Da! Diva mare had 5 1/2 hour pasture turnout today and seemed to survive.
No Naproxen Thurs AM/PM or Fri AM so she was pain reliever free. I'll check her feet before I go to bed and if there is heat, I'll give Naproxen.
The weather broke. We had some sunshine today and then clouds, but the wind was light and the temps were in the 40s. At noon it was 40 so the ground is frozen 2-3 inches, but had thawed to spongey on the top inch--nice. Not smeary, slippery yet. So I brought Diva out and she gave me her front feet to look at and check temps. I brushed the bottoms of them to get a good lookey see. No bruising that I could see with the naked eye. I pressed on her front soles, she didn't jerk her foot away. Ok. Walking gingerly across the concrete aisle and then onto 1/2" rubber mat walkway to grass so her little footsies don't touch any gravel. Grass was soft enough for her feet to sink 1/2 inch. Her pace picked up and the green grass was so enticing... She was a dignified lady and walked off nicely after her halter was off. No yahooing like a silly gelding even though she has been in her stall/drylot for 10 full days!
However, when I returned to barn to get the geldings, she became the equine temptress and was trotting the fence line with a big sweepy trot, high head, and a flagged tail calling to the boys. When they came around the corner she gave a ladylike buck, snort, and then stopped and blew. And off she went at lovely canter (!!! Diane!). After that 3 minute parade display, she settled down and grazed the almost invisible grass and mostly ignored the boys. They were put in the round pen. I didn't want them to go into a pasture, which is out of her sight, because I was afraid she would yahoo it up too much wondering where they were. So, they got stuck in a crummy (no grass!) round pen. They made the most of it horsing around and chasing/biting each other all afternoon. I also didn't want them in with her because they would run her all over. Trying to baby those feet!
I cleaned the stalls and drylots while watching all three off and on. Diva mare looked perfectly content. Rolled a couple of times and seemed to have no difficulty getting up.
At 5:15 the dusk is coming quick. The barn light went on and I put out their dinner. Of course everyone knows the rattle bang of feed/hay being put out. So Diva mare comes cantering up to the gate in a hurry and comes to a sliding stop. It's smeary now. I probably waited about an hour too long to bring them in. She is covered in mud, but not too thick. Brought her in first. Clean the mud off. Wiped the mud off hooves. No heat yet. She didn't jerk feet away. Turned her back into her clean stall with two full bales of clean straw for her diva mattress.
I'll check her feet in little bit and hope they are still no heat no elevated pulse.
That's the 411 update ladies. Still no riders rasp in the mail. Thought I might try to get new pix tomorrow if Diva isn't sore from her big afternoon today.
Whew. Feel like I've been holding my breath for 11 days.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 8:23 pm:
Vicki what good news, I knew her beautiful canter was in there! I can't believe how Hanks has made a comeback, and I really did miss it.
I don't think she'll be sore as long as she don't go pounding her hooves on hard ground she will be fine!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 9:13 pm:
Let's hope so.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 8:32 pm:
Vicki how IS Diva doing?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 10:59 pm:
The day after her first turnout, she wasn't allowed to leave stall/drylot. No heat in feet.
The second day after her 1st turnout she had been in and out of the drylot and seemed fine. So she was allowed a second turnout for two hours or so in the late afternoon while I can cleaned stalls/drylot. It was very soft ground with slushy snow and on the verge of being a mudhole but the temps stayed just cold enough that it didn't become too soupy. She trotted quickly around the fence line showing off for the geldings again and seemed quite sound. No other yahooing. When I brought her in, she didn't want to give me her feet, so I didn't ask a second time but she did stand so I could brush the mud off the topside of the hooves as it was 2/3rds the way up the foot. No heat.
I didn't feel any heat Mon (next day after 2nd turnout), but she just seemed like she was ouchy, moving around less. I'm still paranoid about inflammation so I gave a dose of naproxen Mon PM, Tues AM/PM, and Wed AM/PM. I think it was the right thing to do. Today she was a real snot to the geldings--jumping around like her usual diva self. Tonight I checked legs and feet at feeding time. Still no heat. I pressed on her soles. She didn't object. Soles sure feel soft to me. But the dry lot is wet with the rain, freezing rain, snow/slush, fog/mist yuck we've had off and on for three days. The Haffies seem soft too.
So I'll stop the naproxen again. Wait 36 hours and if the weather is fit, turn her out again.
I still turn her out alone. I'm afraid to put anyone with her, afraid they will run around too much. Although, the fence line is only 15 ft from the geldsings and she an see them at all times.
Still no riders rasp. I'm starting to wonder if I placed the order or not. I'll have to check my email horse folder...
How's Hank?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 23, 2009 - 5:59 am:
Vicki Have you tried the old macs yet? Is she still quite ouchy on hard ground? How are her hooves looking are they growing out any yet?
We had 6 in of new snow yesterday Hanks hooves are quite happy, but before that he was doing well on the hard ground after my "trim"
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 23, 2009 - 2:33 pm:
No Diane, I haven't tried the Old Macs yet. I don't think I needed them because her turnouts were on soft ground. When I start hand walking her I will use them as we have to travel gravel and some large stone before getting to the pavement.
I just spent 2 hrs. in the barn cleaning 12 feet, brushing 12 feet, drying 12 feet some with a hair dryer...
Applied Thrushbuster to Diva's soles and used a hair dryer to dry it. Applied Keratex to outside of hooves except for top 1/4 of hoof. She didn't mind any of it; did't refuse or try to take foot away or lean or act in general like she was uncomfortable. I could see no bruising or anything suspect along the white line. I felt no heat. She didn't mind me pressing with my fingers on her sole. I liberally applied the Keratex to the outside of the hoof with extra brushing around old nailholes.
Cleaned her stall while she stood tied in the aisle. She is standing on probably 3 bales of wheat straw in her stall although she was snacking on the freshest pieces when I put her back in! I took a few pictures of her left front. She was cooperative;however, the light was terrible as my florescents weren't working. And I took them after the Thrushbuster so I had some purple on the outside toes which probably doesn't help the picture quality!
It is freezing rain, sleet, and 33 nasty degrees. All three choose to stand in the stalls and look out rather than go out much.
Applied Thrush XX (copper sulfate mainly) to all of the Haffies feet and dried it a bit with the hair dryer. So we have purple and green feet in the barn.
It's so soggy, I figured it isn't going to hurt anybody. Windy's right front frog has some thrush damage. He'll get more attention this evening. I need to get a waxy hoof dressing for the outside of everyone's hooves; with all this slop and moisture...
The only hard ground Diva has been on is the barn aisle and she seems to walk and turn and stand on it ok although she hasn't had more than 30--45 minutes on it.
I would assume her hooves have grown a little in 16 days but I didn't measure them. Probably should to get a baseline for the start of this project! Barefoot practitioners/merchants should sell a form with a place for the appropriate info to be recorded. Kooks like me would buy it.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 23, 2009 - 3:47 pm:
You are very dedicated! Sounds as if things are going very well. We have a wintry mess here too. 1st a big dump of snow yesterday, then sleet yesterday afternoon, now it is freezing rain Hate that stuff! Then it is suppose to turn to all rain melt our snow....flood...then snow again! What fun. My horses haven't left the lean-to either, which is fine, this kind of weather will put a chill in them more than anything if they get wet. Gives the hooves time to dry out also.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 23, 2009 - 8:37 pm:
I don't know about dedicated...I didn't want to stand there and hold the foot (feet) until the meds dried, so I used a cheap hair dryer I keep out there. They didn't mind.
Just needed to handle everybody and make them stand tied to remind them who is in charge.
I'll try to resize the photos and post. Not too sure the quality this time around as I was by myself.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 7:27 am:
You will learn how to take pics by yourself It is a good idea to take pics at least once a month, it helps when you look back to see if progress is being made. I think I took pics every weekend for awhile
We have turned into a hard icy mess here, lost the internet, but not power thankfully. I think the report said we had half an inch of ice on trees. If Hank gets through this winter without bruising or a broken leg I'll be happy
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 8:22 am:
Ick to the weather. We're on the verge of an ice slick. It's 33 and rain, rain, rain. Yesterday was sleet/rain. More rain tomorrow. Still some snow on ground but not much.
Sure would be nice to have an indoor arena--if I win the lottery I can build the one I had quoted. Ha.
I tried to resize photos last night on Web Photo Resizer and it wasn't working. I'll try again today.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 9:47 am:
Stay safe over the holidays with the crappy weather. We seem to be in the "iffy" area, might get rain, might get snow, a little, a lot..for sure the NE wind.
Vicki,
Just a reminder to label all your pictures. I still have pictures from almost 3 years ago on here, not needed any more, except to post on some HA members discussion ;-). It sure helps when you feel discouraged to be able to look back and see how far you've come.
When I win that big lottery, I am setting up an Equine Rescue and inviting all HA members to come visit! (My daughter says I have to include cats & dogs in the rescue too.) I know there will be many of us ready to tackle hoof issues, so get ready,
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 10:09 am:
I'll have to have one of my kids show me how to label, draw, etc. on the pictures. Never tried it! Excellent idea to create a progress album.
The thought of having a Rescue with animals with bigger problems is overwhelming to me. I would volunteer to help however! I tried to volunteer here in Indiana at the Horse rescue 6 mi from my house. Never could get anyone to answer my phonecalls or emails...they must have enough $ and volunteers.
I don't go anywhere over the holidays, but thanks for the well wishes! I literally have no family left except for my kids and they still come here as none are married yet.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 10:32 am:
Vicki have you ever tried Picassa? It's so easy to use for resizing and labeling. Even I can do it!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 10:33 am:
When resizing remember: first adjust the image width size (about 500 pixels wide is good) while maintaining the aspect ratio. Then adjust the file size (almost all high quality images will display on a monitor well at around 30K). For more see Help & Information on Using This Site » Uploading Images and Files Into a Posting.
DrO
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 9:21 pm:
Well. Adventures over the holiday included the flu for all humans. Mine started 30 min after my last post above!! Made Christmas a real great time. So, no pictures taken. After the flu worked through everyone, the weather turned COLD and snow which made it far less attractive to lie on the floor to take pictures!
However, the best news is I didn't manage to foul up Diva during her first 30 days without shoes and a too short trim after pulling the shoes. I must have used a favor from somewhere. She hasn't bruised yet. Has had some turn out when the temps were warmer and the ground wasn't too hard. Most of the turn out was in the middle of the 30 days. I have allowed her turnout on her drylot free choice. Her stall has been heavily bedded with straw. Once the temps got low, I have removed the frozen poop croquet balls every day hoping to avoid a stone-like bruise...much holding of breath for me.
The barefoot trimmer came yesterday and I really liked her, her approach, her explanations, and her manner with the horses. I told her zero about my previous farrier troubles until the end of the appt. and then it wasn't to "tattle" but rather to point out the differences in both experiences. All three horses behaved significantly different--for the better. Very interesting.
Diva had no bruising but is still short in the front. She has hardly any waterline at all on the front toes. Trimmer said no roll could be put on the toe yet. Trimmer said Diva's "angles" were correct at the end of the appt. "Angles" being front shoulder slope, pastern, and hoof angles. She did take a bit off the bars. She was surprised that Diva had some concavity on the front. She was expecting her to be flat, flat. Trimmer was pleased with the trims on the Haffies that the farrier had done with the exception of no roll/bevel, just a foot ready for a shoe.
I'll try to tackle pix asap. The high tomorrow is supposed to be 10. Bonus.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 7:44 am:
Vicki sounds like you found a good trimmer lucky you.
Glad Diva is doing so well, and you got over the flu.
Look forward to your pics.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 1:20 pm:
Sounds as if you have a good trimmer - Did she tell you that you could start putting your mare out more? Her feet may still be too short for it yet, but my trimmer emphasized to me that the barefoot horses need to be out on hard ground to utilize their frogs/feet properly if their feet are trimmed properly.
I went from a bad farrier to a good trimmer, and I had a similar good experience. I was terrified that my horses would bruise their feet with no shoes on, but that was not the case. But your mare may still need to grow out more foot if she was cut really short 30 days ago.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 1:38 pm:
Diva has access 24/7 to a #12 stone drylot off her equiterr floor/rubber mat/deeply straw-bedded stall. Trimmer thought the "foot" environment was perfect. Glad one thing was going in her favor. Trimmer said to keep doing what we're doing and let Diva decide where she wants to walk. (Diva isn't a yahooing, race around horse usually.) Diva is not sore at this time. No bruising at this time. When the temps come up to 25 daytime high, we'll do some hand walking on even ground or she can have turnout larger than her drylot. If I had to handwalk her on the gravel, I'd boot her at this point.
We'll see ladies.
With all of the snow/ice I'm wondering if I should coat the outside of the hooves with mineral oil. My inclination is to put a hoof hardener on the outside, let it dry, and then mineral oil. I'll have to read and see if that is a dumb idea for trying to keep moisture out and keep a hard hoof horn.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 1:43 pm:
Diane, I'm going to look on the site where I found this trimmer and see if anyone is near you. You're in the NW corner of Illinois if I remember correctly. Right where I see the cold, cold wind chills...we are just se of that cold, cold area so I guess that just makes us cold. It's 19 right now which is warmer than predicted. And snowing. And, this trimmer is cheaper than any of the trims I have paid for with a certified farrier. Bonus.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 1:46 pm:
I have the name of a barefoot trimmer in the St. Louis area if that would be of any help.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 1:56 pm:
That is a GREAT foot environment! That is probably helping her a great deal.
My trimmer said "no hoof dressings", but I think you may be right to try something. Have you ever tried "Hoof Heal"? It got a great rating from "horse journal", and it goes on well even in the cold temperatures. Another thing my trimmer suggested was apple cider vinegar mixed with a few DrOps of tree tea oil to help harden the hoof. Just spray it on the foot.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 2:04 pm:
I've got the ac vinegar and tree tea oil but haven't used it. Think I read about it on a barefoot site somewhere. I need to get my notes organized in the binder I bought and organize all my hoof "supplies". Right now I have a pile.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 2:18 pm:
Vicki I am in the very NW corner of Il. yes where it is very cold! I think we live in the devils triangle of weather.
Actually I'm starting to like doing my own trimming, Don't know if I will be able to handle Sam's foot if I get him to pull out of this tho. Hank is doing very well on the hard ground and even handling snowballs this year.. a 1st! I looked high and low when Hank was foundering for a barefoot trimmer OR even a farrier well versed in founder...none around here I am afraid.
I am so glad Diva is doing so well, will be curious to see if her "nice" canter returns.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 2:22 pm:
Thanks Diane, Diva is just in the early, early stages of foot rehab! One false move on the gravel or uneven frozen ground and I think I'd have a big ole bruise which can lead me down the road of abscess, etc. Holding my breath still.
I posted this link on Sam's founder discussion:
Ann Marie Larson, N. Illinois, Iowa & Eastern Nebraska, 309-334-2701 balancedhorse @ hotmail.com
Graduated strasser course 2002.Experienced in successful rehabilitation of Founder and Navicular. Travel through Northern Illinois, Iowa, and Eastern Nebraska. www.balancedhorse@hotmail.com
Maybe this person could help in the beginning if you need it after Sam is further down the road.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 3:26 pm:
This is what my trimmer sent me. I do not use boots to soak, but large ziplock bags. I hope this helps you:
ACV and TTO
Great for small, sickly frogs, thrush, etc. in horses transitioning to performance barefoot from shoes or from a poor barefoot trim
If your horse has poor, weak frogs from contracted heels, etc., he may need a little help in the beginning. In very
severe cases I may recommend CleanTrax (a commercial preparation originally developed for use in
hospitals, which is safe for horses), but in most cases, ACV and TTO will do the trick!
ACV=apple cider vinegar. Purchase only the unpasteurized variety, which is available at Whole Foods or Wild Oats, and also online. The grocery store variety is useless for this purpose.
TTO=tea tree oil. You can get it at Whole Foods or Wild Oats as well. It comes in a tiny bottle and you only use a very small amount at a time.
Do EITHER or BOTH of the procedures below at least once a day. You can spray
several times a day if you are able.
ACV (apple cider vinegar) soaks. You can do this w/ soaking boots (get 2)—my favorites are
Davis boots. Use warm water
mixed at a 1:10 (ACV/water) ratio and put into the boots once applied. Soak for 30-40 minutes as
often as you can. Most horses will stand quietly in the boots once they are used to them. Put them
on when you are grooming or feeding and have horse confined for a short period. They are not for turnout.
ACV and TTO (tea tree oil) spray. Get a spray bottle and fill w/ straight ACV (not diluted). Add about 10 DrOps of TTO. Shake and spray directly into the frog—hold the nozzle right up against the "butt crack" in those frogs and pump the solution in. Does a great job of clearing out the fungus
that is inevitable in contracted heels and promoting new frog growth.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 3:44 pm:
Thanks for passing the info along Nancy. I have read about the ACV and TTO before; however, I didn't read or missed the part about not using grocery store ACV. And I never read anything about the ACV soaks. Just the mixture of ACV and TTO as a spray to toughen soles.
I wonder however about the soaks. 9/10ths of the soak is water. I'm trying to avoid softening the soles and it would worry me to soak the entire foot. My trimmer did not mention that her frogs were weak or sickly so I'll probably avoid the soaking. And she doesn't have thrush.
Thanks though for posting the instructions. I'll add it to my pile, someday organized, notes.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 6:06 pm:
No, I would not soak in your situation, either. The spray works quite well, so soaking is more bother than it's worth.
If you want to buy the grocery store vinegar, mix 1 cup of the other vinegar ("organic") with a gallon of grocery vinegar and let it "cook" in a dark place for a few weeks - then it will become good to use.
Good luck - this cold weather is actually a good time to do this transition - I tried during a wet summer to transition my horses, and their soles stayed wet and got soft.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 9:13 am:
ACV from a health food store will have the "mother" floating in the bottle.
Interesting for an antifungal treatment. I know the TTO works on fungus.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 6:34 pm:
Vicki, the active ingredient in the Thrushbuster (formaldehyde) is very volatile. Using a hair dryer on it will cause premature evaporation. While TTO and ACV may have some beneficial properties in some circumstance I do not know of any evidence for their use in treating or even preventing foot fungal infections. Of course any regular cleaning of the foot with just about any substance makes horn infections less likely.
DrO
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 7:19 pm:
Dr. O, would the evaporation be premature if the hair dryer was on the cool setting? The "blown" air wasn't heated. I'd have to look back at my notes to see for what application TTO/ACV was used. I read it somewhere on a "barefoot" type site, but I thought it was for hardening the hoof horn and/or the sole. Could be a chicken bones thing. We still need that icon. You need to get on that one, the hair pulling icon, and the Dr. O Vet with the sign that states, "Read the Article."
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 8:06 pm:
I have difficulty using a known human carcinogen, formaldehyde, around myself or my horses. I realize that there is no data on ACV or TTO, but since my trimmer recommended their use, I feel there is no harm in seeing if the regime might not help. It is inexpensive and will certainly do no harm. It does not dry out the horn as other things do, and it does not soften the sole.
Certainly, with advanced cases, it might not be the prudent methodology.
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 10:13 pm:
We used ACV on the advise of our trimmer. The results were positive. I think it did have some hardening effect and anti-microbial effect. More, I think, than mere cleaning with a warm water soak.
I read some where that the topical antibacterial effect of bleach is greatly enhanced if followed by a PH lowering rinse, like vinegar (Don't mix the two). Perhaps the PH change is antibacterial.
All I can say is the horse is sound now, no thrush and no abscess. Barefoot with gravel crushing hard soles.
Last May he was three leg lame with crumbly thin horn and repeated abscess, fingernail soft soles, shaggy soft frogs and atrophied heel structure that offered no support.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 10:23 pm:
Vicki,
For grins and giggles:
#:-) means messy hair.
>:-( means annoyed.
Maybe if we do: >#:-( that could be pulling out my hair?
Here's the link: https://www.netlingo.com/smileys.php
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 11:38 pm:
Gosh, what you learn on HA! What's shavings in the hair?
Good luck ladies with your horses and their feet. I've been following these discussion with great interest, hoping I'll learn something new "for next time" ...which I hope never comes!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 6:58 am:
Not only is formaldehyde a potential carcinogen but a toxic and irritating chemical. In spite of that I do believe it can be handled safely and used for the horse's benefit, for more on this see Treatments and Medications for Horses » Antibiotics and Antimicrobials » Formaldehyde and Formalin Use.
If the hair dryer causes the foot to become dryer quicker the formaldehyde will be evaporated faster, it has no dry form. However the effects of toughening the horn do not dissipate, but I wonder it that is a time dependent effect that improves with time.
DrO
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 7:45 am:
Thanks everyone. Plenty to think about. Here's a paragraph I copied while googling about thrush and formaldehyde.
Dr.O, what is your opinion regarding the info in the paragraph regarding formaldehyde?
"...If the thrush is really bad and the frog is split or eaten away after debrideing the area use HyDrOgen Peroxide and a small brush to clean and disinfect the area and then apply Thrush Buster. In a pinch out of a product specifically formulated for treating thrush you can use regular household bleach. Never use Formaldehyde to treat thrush. It will harden the top layers of cellular tissue, leaving the underlying tissue soft. This is a bad situation as the hardened tissue will break up and crack and generally become de-structured. Formaldehyde is a good theoretical agent to use against the organisms causing thrush, but the reaction with the tissue of the frog makes it totally unsuitable and may well be contributing to the split..."
I thought ThrushBuster contained formaldehyde (formalin 37% formaldehyde) and the author of the above paragraph seems to contradict himself?
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 12:28 pm:
Thrush Buster is great stuff. Ingredients are water, isopropanel formalin, PVP, iodine complex and Gentian Violet. The ispropanel formalin is formaldehyde.
When I bought my mustang, he had a pretty established thrush in all 4 feet. I followed the advice in Dr. O's article and it worked great. As noted in the article, formaldehyde formulations like Thrush Buster are too harsh if the thrush is advanced. I started with the milder treatment Dr. O recommends, then progressed to Thrush Buster when he had healed up some. Since then, Thrush Buster is all I've needed.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 1:13 pm:
Thrushbuster does contain formaldehyde (as Sharon points out the formalin is a formaldehyde solution) but I think the final concentration of formaldehyde is a 10% solution. Which is also what we shoot for when we make up our sole paint for Thrush and White Line Disease.
Over use of formaldehyde can cause the horn to become brittle so the best judge of its use is by assessing the horn: once it is clean and firm the frequency of application should decrease or possibly stop all together.
DrO
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 1:30 pm:
Angie, roflol what a hoot!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 2:50 pm:
OH I found one.. this will be used a lot!!!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 4:42 pm:
Love it Diane!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 5:46 pm:
love it!! How do you put it on here though? I tried moving Emoticons from incredimail, but couldn't figure out how to do it.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 6:27 pm:
I had to upload it just like a picture, now that I got it figured out I have all kinds of them... tho I think the pulling out hair and I'm confused one will be the most used
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:07 pm:
Verbose Update:
Jan was a really crummy weather month. Diva mare was only in the pasture 4 times for a few hours in the afternoon each time. We had rain, ice, snow, sleet, etc. and bone chilling temps the first two weeks of Jan! And then the ground thawed about 3" the third week of Jan (while I was in Reno) and we had rain, rain, and 40-53 degree days! Slop. So Diva was confined to her Equiterr/stone drylot and her heavily bedded stall. By the third week of Jan she was weaned from all feed concentrate--Not enough movement and she has put on a few lbs. I've been decreasing her concentrate since Dec 7. (Haffies on the other hand are pretty good weight wise!) I found a digital scale in the tool room and it is set up in the horse barn now. Hay is weighed. I'm relieved to report my "Horse Help" the third week of January did a fine job feeding and cleaning stalls and managing Diva's bedding while I was in Reno.
I've been back a week today from Reno. Diva had turn out from 1-7 this afternoon in the sunshine and 29 degrees. She zipped around for about 30 seconds and one or two bucks and then settled down to munch winter grass. The snow/ice crust was only like a "sugar coating" on the grass so she wasn't prompted to dig much with her front feet to get the grass. Good. She came in very gingerly. She had some snow pack which caused her to walk on the sole snow pack and no weight was on her walls. Once I flipped the snow pack out with the hoof pick, she was just fine on the concrete--turning and walking. No heat, no pulse, no apparent bruising. I did give her a "inflammatory preventative" dose of Naproxin w/ applesauce, minerals, and a cup of ration balancer. Quite the treat as she hasn't had any pellet feed for about 2 1/2 weeks. I'll give the Naproxen Mon AM/PM, Tues AM/PM, and Wed AM and then discontinue unless something changes.
I dried her feet with clean towels and applied Keratex to outside of hoof and bottom of wall with extra swipe around old nail holes.
Back to the Diva bedded stall and drylot.
Temps are supposed to warm up the middle of the week so it would be nice to hand walk a while.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 6:39 am:
Vicki it's been awhile, can you get pics of what her hooves look like now?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 8:52 am:
It's on my list. Trimmer was here Jan 7, so it will be 28 days of growth this Thursday. Trimmer due back Feb 17 which makes it one day shy of six weeks. Farrier is due Feb 8. Suppose I should cancel that appt today. I've been mulling over what to do about his visit.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 7:03 pm:
Vicki, I have that predicament too. I am debating whether I want to tackle all 3 horses hooves, and what if I need shoes.
Were you happy with the barefoot trimmer? Are you unhappy with your farrier? Will you ever need shoes put on for anything.
I got to say he did leave Diva's hooves get pretty long. Start studying and you can do your own!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 7:32 pm:
Diane & Vicki,
You gals act like the farrier gives a hoot whether he comes or not. He most likely doesn't care one way or another. Diane, just tell your guy, that your horses have been doing ok and that you want to extend the times between visits and that you'll call him and give him plenty of notice if you need him to come out. I do not think you will be needing shoes anytime soon. All you need is someone to start messing with your horses hooves right now and you'll be right back to square one. Give yourself some credit. And as far as your third horse goes, Flash looks like she's been taking care of herself just fine.
Vicki, from my experience and at the point you are at now, you need to deal with the person you feel the most comfortable with, preferably one that understands your horses feet from a natural perspective. You also don't need another set of ideas on top of the ones you are already getting.
Your farrier will be around if you need him, lets hope you don't. Stick with the trimmer if you are more comfortable.
Rachelle
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 8:26 pm:
Rachelle - AMEN!! The only thing that the farriers will miss is their check from you!
If you do not already have a hoofstand, buy one of those "Hoofjacks" and it makes trimming horses much easier. BTW - once summer comes and their hooves are being worn down by harder surfaces, you'll see the feet basically start to 'self trim". I have a mare who has never had shoes on, that I look at every 6-8 weeks - it's the "transitioning" horses that take all the time and dedication. You are both doing well and need to trust your "gut".
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 6:50 am:
Harder ground in the summer? I wish. The winter is what proves to be hard on these horses.
I am debating the whole farrier thing, I actually like doing the horses hooves (for the most part) my skill level is still low, and I have 2 horses with challenging hooves. I still don't get some things totally, my confidence is VERY low doing this (but improving) and the WORST part I only have one more part left in Hanks thread!
Vicki keep educating yourself, the people on here are very smart, and we have learned how to draw on pics, Dr.O. does too That visual will help you learn. I haven't got cut off yet and am on part nine I figure if Hank can be sound on the type of ground we have right now...let alone trot It's well worth being embarrassed by all my parts! I still like the idea of pages... not quite so embarrassing
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 9:28 am:
DianE, the hard ground will help the horses transition, even though initially that just does not seem possible. Check out any BF site, and they will tell you that the hard surfaces are what make the horses' hooves expand/contract correctly. I have a horse that is not fully transitioned, and he is very careful walking on the frozen ground, but the others don't care all. If your horses are tender, it is bc the hoof is still undergoing the changes needed to get to BF. We had temps below zero here last week and the three transitioned horses were fine - you'll find that next winter your horses will be much more comfortable on the frozen terrain . I had a BF trimmer out last week to check my progress - he used to be a farrier but switched - he was completely amazed at my horses' feet and said they were the best BF feet he had ever seen in person - including his own horses. So the info on this site - and others - can teach you what you need to know. Good luck with yours.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 9:42 am:
Rachelle,
I had farriers who came when I called and we worked out time; and others who got miffed and wouldn't show up if I couldn't/wouldn't commit to a schedule. The last one, who took the clients my old trimmer had, was so arrogant he really helped me make the decision to trim myself!
Everyone, if I were to come up with ONE thing to do before trimming yourself it would be:
Go to a mini (weekend?)clinic given by a knowledgeable BAREFOOT trimmer.
OR
Order some DVD's of a respected well known barefoot trimmer. Not pushing Rameys...I think there are others which show enough and are cheaper. Compare cost to what you've been paying your hoof person, especially if he is messing up your horses hoofs in some cases! Even if your hoof guy/gal is doing great, I bet most of us don't pay for tweaks every 4 weeks, or as needed.
And only do the above after you have studied by reading books, and visiting websites, watching online videos.
I know making those choices in that order, would have saved me lots of headaches, missed riding time, and sore horses. And quicker results.
"Less is more" regarding trimming.
But,
"More knowledge is a must" when trying to learn to trim yourself.
I think everyone needs to read and study, but there are some things that require "SEEING" in real time/or video, to understand. And not just a video on youtube, those are not complete in most cases. Helpful yes, thorough, no.
If you can find someone willing to show up and appraise your work too, that is an added bonus! I had one retired guy over once, BIG HELP!! Not a "barefoot" dude, but still helpful.
End of my advice!
Ladies,I have complete confidence you WILL DO FINE!! 
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 6:23 pm:
Thanks ladies.
My current farrier is a very nice man. And, he always sticks to his schedule and calls if something goes arye (unlike farrier #2) He is kind. He isn't arrogant (unlike farrier #2). He worked me into his schedule in the first place as he knew my situation with farrier #2--not showing up routinely. So, if I cancel my spot from his schedule, I feel I could still call him and say I need shoes, Diva Mare is not quite ready to be barefoot 24/7, and he would come out within 2 weeks or sooner. And if I had a super emergency, I'd call PU and he is the farrier for PU, so he'd be here anyway. I think given that he works at PU, he is a little more cognizant of Public Relations in the community (unlike Farrier #2 who could give a hang about Public Relations or Commitment). Interestingly enough, farrier #2 USED TO WORK for PU but not in an equine capacity. Not sure how or why that relationship ended.
I am comfortable with the barefoot trimmer at this time although, she has only been here once. I'll continue with her. I was surprised that she didn't want to come back in 3 weeks since Diva is transitioning, but the trim Dec 7 was short and she might be waiting for more hoof. That will be a question to ask on Feb 17.
I need to get some pix up this week so you all can critique where we are in terms of growth, trim, and trouble.
I will not be attempting to do anyone's feet in the near future. I'm not ready. Too much fear, too little comprehension of the big picture at this time. And life is busy right now outside of the horse part of my life. I lost 18 hours of horse time per week in Jan, Feb, and March due to work commitments. 
If I could just win the lottery, I would have more time! 
I will at some point get some training; however, probably not until this summer. No time. I did check out the Hoof Care Symposium in Cincinnati Feb 2-5 this week. The online info looked interesting; however, I am too ignorant at this point to really benefit from attending the workshops! It would probably be as mysterious as brain surgery. I need a dummy level 101 course.
My guess right now is that Diva is very comfortable with her feet because there isn't much being asked of her feet! Cushy stall and fairly smooth drylot. She needs more walking in her day than she has had in January.
Her weight is decent, but I'd like to see 40 DrOpped although it is hard to tell with the winter coat on. I can feel her ribs but not very well. There is some padding between the ribs!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 7:33 am:
Nancy, I agree subjecting them to hard ground when they are ready...slowly has to be done eventually. In my case anyway, I am dealing with thin soles, and rotation.... hard ground is not good for them until they have "better hoof form" and the pathologies corrected. Hank is coming along and tolerating the hard ground very well..after 3 years
Sam will not see hard ground for awhile, it could lead us back right where we started( it did Hank)... every horse is different and many things to be considered.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 7:57 am:
Diane,
The big difference between Hank and Sam is that you are addressing Sam's problem much more quickly( or should I say differently) than you did Hank, thus Sam's problem will more or less resolve much more quickly. The other difference is that Sam has not been in shoes and Hank was, so his foot form and function repair and healing will not be slowed down by having to nail on metal shoes.
Sam's life as a pasture potato will most likely allow him to deal with hard ground ( or his normal environment whether hard or soft) much more quickly too as their is no extra stresses from riding.
Rachelle
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 8:09 am:
That Rachelle is the $6million dollar variable I'm worried about!-- riding stress and transition rehab! Miss Diva's soles are thin. I will have digital x-rays done with spring shots and we'll see if the soles are any thicker than they were in Feb 09. Sure hope so. I need to read up on sole thickness...what is scary thin, average, and nice thick, to-lust-after heavy soles...
I certainly won't be riding for at least 30 days and then probably only with boots for short time periods. I'd rather skip the riding rather than bruise a foot. I'm petrified of bruises.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 9:40 am:
Angie - super, super advice!! When I saw the trimmer in person it taught me more than a website ever could.
DianE - absolutely, each horse has to be treated according to what that horse needs. Just don't be terrified of hard ground when the time is right for Sam. Rachelle's insight on the differences between your two horses is very helpful. Sam's not having shoes on will make a tremendous difference in your time line with him. Rotation makes it tougher, but still doable.
Vicki - sounds as if you are very lucky to have a good trimmer close by - wish we were all so lucky! X-rays will REALLY help you through all this; best thing you could do. Your veterinarian should be able to really assess the soles for you - for example, a big heavy horse (like mine) will need more sole than a smaller one to be comfortable. Also, eventually the soles will harden and become smooth and rounded to the hoof walls, making it all one continuous "area" (so to speak) - when you see that, you will know that the soles will support your horse. Pete Ramey says that the "feet will speak" to you - I thought he was crazy, but after awhile, you will understand more and more what they should look like. Like anything having to do with horses - it takes time and observation and patience. (don't we all know that!!!)
My trimmer suggested that I boot my horse and then hand walk him on a hard surface, like a road, to get the foot working properly during his transition. Perhaps that might work better for you than riding, but you might not have a safe road nearby. Boots are a very good idea. But even if she gets bruised - it is NOT the end of the world, and will not necessarily lead to an abscess. I dealt with consistent, regular bruising with my husband's QH during his transitioning - he would run in the pasture and then be lame for 3-4 days. But he never abscessed, and this went on for about 2-3 months. It wasn't associated with a trim, just activity. I never Buted him (so he wouldn't run more!) and eventually he came out of it. A year later his feet are AWESOME - hard, concave, where before he was very flat footed, thin soled with underrun heels and pigeontoed. A basic disaster!
The horse I am transitioning now is 19 years old, overweight, IR, and has some white line separation, and a thin sole. He is also not an easy case, (probably like your Diva) and the hard ground is tough for him to negotiate. But if I keep him in this stall, he stocks up, and goes lunatic. So, for me, I just put him out and pray for the best. And he might get bruised, I realize, and set me back yet again. (I am NOT recommending that anyone else do this!! I have just decided to let nature take its course after a year of worrying I will do something wrong)
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 10:25 am:
Nancy, perhaps Diva mare is like your husband's QH. Sounds like the 19 yr old has more problems that Diva mare (although I shouldn't say that, I'll jink myself...)
She's out in a pasture by herself right now. Still frozen ground, but the pasture she is in is pretty smooth. Very few cut up places. Just the usual uneven-ness from freezing/thawing. She trotted the fence line and even cantered a bit when I took the other two out of her sight. The short time she was moving, she didn't look uncomfortable, but her stride seemed fairly short. But then again, she was just cruising a bit not really yahooing it up. That only lasted a couple of minutes. She's pretty laid back. Stand. Or stand and eat is her favorite.
Her soles felt a little harder this morning when I cleaned and checked feet? We'll see.
Another thing to worry me and read about is her conformation issue--pidgeon toed. I don't want to overcorrect the hoof to the point I throw the bony column out of wack--at least "out of wack" with her conformation. I may not be too articulate expressing my concern--not too knowledgeable. Wonder how best to tell? X-Rays I suppose.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 10:27 am:
I'll probably be one of those hand-wringing, nervous Nellies...which doesn't go over too well around here! It's a pretty "take it as it comes, suck it up, whatever will be will be, that's life get over it" type place around here!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 2:50 pm:
Vicki - the pigeontoedness I have dealt with on my husband's QH - and when I tell you what happened you may not believe it was that simple. All I did was balance the foot. Period. And not let the toes grow out or the heels get long - it is usually overgrowth of the inside hoof wall/heel that contributes to pigeontoes. SO - my advice is to have her trimmed every 4 weeks if you can afford it, when the feet start their spring growth - and to keep that inside wall "in check" yourself between trims - your trimmer will know what to tell you. Now, pigeontoes never really go away, but if you have the horse trimmed like Dr. O suggests here, you'll find that the leg/foot will do their own "thing" and become straighter. I can trim my QH and get an almost straight foot by normal balancing. And this is a horse that had toes so bad that when he was shod he couldn't canter correctly, as his breakover was all wrong. Even the trimmer that stopped by a week or so ago was AMAZED that it took so little to "fix' the foot - and it's not fixing, just side to side and front to back balance.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 6:21 pm:
Vicki,
I agree with Nancy, I have seen what looks like terribly conformed horses come out looking quite normal all because their feet were taken care of and balanced properly. There is more of a chance that her bony column is screwed up now being pidgeon-toed, than if they were slowly brought back into balance to the point where they are normal. The trick is to do it slowly, but do it more often so that the bony column can adjust along with your horses feet.
Nancy, I am like you. I just stopped worrying about their feet. I pull shoes all the time and don't even look at them. I quit obsessing, they like it and I like it and my blood pressure went down.
Rachelle
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 8:41 pm:
Vicki,
I thought maybe if I could explain what I do to get my newly barefoot untransitioned horses back into heavy work, it might help you with Diva mare.
I was able to train my race mare almost all the way down to race time barefoot. I thought her attitude was better and she certainly stayed sound and I think she really liked it.
The racetrack surface I used was a combination sand/dirt 1/2 mile track it was not a deep track, I would call it a kind track very good for transitioning feet.
My mares shoes were pulled and she was trimmed in early July, She got ten days off in the field to get her feet used to being barefoot. After 10 days, I started towing her first a mile( days 1-3, then a mile and an half(days 4-6), then two miles(days 7-9)etc, until I built her up to 4 miles. Then she started to train, she went a training trip(towed 2 miles and went a slow trip) every 5 days with a day off after she trained. She was totally bare foot for 6 weeks, jogging, training happy, never took a lame or sore step. After her transition, I put her in the Hoofwear/steel shoe combination and she did fine, that's on another thread.
My purpose in explaining this is that I think you would be safe riding a lot sooner, if you started conditioning her feet to where you were going to ride. That IMHO would do more for thickening up her soles than any amount of booting would do. You just have to start slowly. A couple of minutes a day on a lounge line or at liberty. Its the movement that's going to stimulate her feet to do what they are supposed to do, that and some dedicated trimming.
The trick is to balance not only the foot but the amount of wear and the growth. Don't want to work her every day, don't, do it every other day, but put her on some sort of schedule to make sure she gets some work several times a week.
Just my thoughts
Rachelle
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 9:02 pm:
I never used to worry about feet. For years. But. Now I have feet to worry about. Diva Feet.
I never had to "work at feet" before. Feet "just happened." Which is why I must have stayed blissfully ignorant of Diva Feet. I didn't have any.
If I remember correctly what the PU DVM told me from the X-Rays, Diva had 6mm of sole in front of the frog last Feb. I have the CD;however, it doesn't work well with Vista so I don't know if I can open it again or not. I'm sure PU has her file however. It will be interesting to compare with this year's X-Rays.
Thanks ladies for posting your experiences and thoughts. It does help.
It would be wonderful if her hoof care improves her pidgeon toed issues.
Diva mare was on pasture from 10am-8pm and had herself a very nice day. She has retired to her stall and drylot for the night.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 9:21 pm:
We cross posted Rachelle. I didn't see your last post until after I posted.
I appreciate your insight. It does help.
Wonder how thin/thick your race mare's soles were?
Diva has not had her feet booted or wrapped at all. By design. I ordered the wraps, boots, and RX soaking boot for my inventory...just in case! It has been 58 days since her shoes were pulled. 58 days since the short farrier trim. 27 days since the barefoot trimmer trimmed. She has been on heavy straw bedding on rubber mats with the 24/7 choice to go to the stone dry lot. She has been on pasture soft and frozen flat ground a limited about of time the past 58 days. I'd guess 60 hours without checking my records. And we've had some amazingly crummy weather. But it will be changing soon.
It's probably harder to remain calm when I'm a "maiden" barefoot transition"er" with not so much knowledge. I'm sure after I have transitioned a few horses, I'll be less anxious and it will be no big deal.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 6:55 am:
Vicki,
I don't really know how thick or thin my mares soles were, but I can imagine they were pretty thin since up until that time she had been constantly in nailed on shoes and she had been shod every three weeks from the time she was two and she was four when I took her shoes off.
I am not sure what made all this barefoot stuff click in my head especially when I had been a traditional trainer for 30 + years, but when it did, it did not take me long to realize that horses are healthier and happier without shoes. or in my case, without nails.
I am constantly looking for ways that will work for me in an abrasive environment(stonedust racetrack). RIght now, I think the track that she will be using will work out because about 1/4 of it is stonedust and the rest is sand/dirt, so her feet will get somewhat conditioned to the stonedust without causing too much wear. I think if I can get her too the races barefoot, she would be fine racing barefoot as long as her feet have been properly conditioned to her working environment. That's why some horses can go all day and night on rocky uneven terrain, its because that's where they have lived and worked.
I think that's the trick.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 7:55 am:
A few thoughts as I was reading this; our mare Gem occasionally had slight signs of lameness, ouchiness, in the 6+ years we've had her. Even before I was doing my own trimming. It's only been since I build the "track" (Paddock paradise concept)that I quit seeing anything off with her. I suspect my trimming techniques are better now too, but I believe it's the movement that makes the different, and the ground. It's icy, rough, and generally awful out there right now, yet she runs and bucks, no gimpiness.
Just as I used to be able to run across gravel as a kid, years of wearing shoes (to keep my feet supported to keep my hips in line, to keep my Achilles tendons pain free!)has made me a tender feet!
Diva mare will move about as she is comfortable, I think we need to trust that horses won't go out of their way to be in pain. After the initial first few days, (with trimming issues) we should not mask the pain with bute or boots, yet put on boots if we are going to ask the horse to go someplace they are not used to.
Everything in balance with hoof care, it's more than the hoof.
Another theory out there is grain fed horses have a harder time developing good hoofs.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 9:39 am:
I agree with Angie and Rachelle, it is the movement on different types of terrain, (gradually increasing the amount of movement and types of terrain) that really makes the difference in the BF transition. The more the horses move around, the more their feet and all the parts get used properly (see Pete Ramey's book about this). All the dressage people I know think that I am absolutely NUTS because my horses are turned out all the time, aren't blanketed and are BF - this goes against the grain of "proper" horse care. But like Rachelle, I just suddenly "saw" that these nail holes weren't helping - and that after every farrier visit my horses were LAME. And my instructor, told me he NEVER shoes his horses. I guess if he could compete at Grand Prix on a barefoot horse (in the 1980s when no one else did that!), than it was good enough for me. I have a pea gravel/sand mix arena, which seems way too hard for most dressagers, but my horses are fine on it. Hard surfaces are the makers of good hooves - just not in the first 60-120 days!
And I will also attest that horses off grain will transition better - as soon as I took them off the small amount of grain they were on, their feet and WL greatly improved. I would like to do the PP idea, but not sure it would work well on clay soil - Angie, what kind of soil do you have and how do you keep erosion down?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 10:57 am:
I totally agree ladies with the overall concept that the foot will work in the environment it is used to working in. And a natural foot as nature made it is best. But. When humans have the horse do "Work", sometimes the foot needs to be protected. Big question. When and How Much... I feel Diva's work schedule will not require shoes for the long term. I hope I can avoid them altogether. I have never had a performance/show/race horse and probably never will. I have no idea what a heavy schedule would do to feet like that. ! I think it's great that you ladies are going BF and your horses' work schedules, conditioning, etc. are facilitating the BF lifestyle. I really appreciate hearing your experiences as they are of course much different than mine.
When I was a teenager and mooching off my "live on a farm, had a grade QH used for trail" friends, very few shoed their horses. It cost $. We were kids. The horses ate grass. In the winter hay supplemented the grass. No one tested the hay. No one worried about minerals, supplements, etc. And amazingly no one's horse was ever sick or lame. Could be blind luck. But. We didn't over feed. Over feeding seemed to make a horse cranky. In the spring when they were turned out on the new grass, nobody could catch their horse without great effort for about a week because it was "spring" grass. When I worked on a Dude Ranch (my wannabe cowgirl stint) in the Rockies in 1980, none of those horses were shod. Who would want to pay to shoe 100 head of trail horses? Transition is just something I have not been exposed to very much.
So Nancy, I totally understand the amazement your "dressage" acquaintances must have watching you go BF--they are "proper" horse people... I never was a proper horse person. We backyard QH owners when I was a kid admired and were envious of the folks with $, lessons, schooling shows, and proper horse barns, and proper horse care, and their show ponies. However, we had a blast in our ignorance! Trailing riding, camping, and swimming with our grade stock and loving life. And just maybe, our grade stock had pretty good lives too. they were out 24/7 with a run in shed. Had grass (what there was) 24/7. And they had their herd pals 24/7...there was no breeding, no studs, no babies, no newcomers, not much trailering, just a simple life outside. None of those horses ever saw an indoor arena I would wager. Unless riding inside a tool shed with a dirt floor counts. LOL Rachelle, no horse tracks near me growing up. I saw a few "sulky" races at 4-H Fairs in the state but knew nothing about it. Never saw a "jockey" race unless watching it on tv counts until my wealthy friend's dad took us on a charter bus when I was 22? to Churchhill Downs for the day and we bet all day with $50 he gave each of us, had a box lunch, and had a great time. I felt like a real "wheel" that day! Hahahaha. If I remember correctly I bet the colors of the silks rather than looking at odds or horses...oh. I and I bet on Pat Day anytime he was on the program because my friend's dad said he was a good jockey. hahahaha. That was about 30 years ago and the full extent of my knowledge. Shame. I only live about 2 hours from the KY Derby track!!!
So. Now that I'm 50 and have time and a little $ to pursue my since I can remember, passion for horses, my big plan was to do things, "properly". Built the "proper" barn. Built the "proper fence". Etc. Still working on the proper arena. BUT HEY! GOOD NEWS, THE ELK ARE CONTRACT SOLD. sorry for the yelling Dr. O, but I've been waiting 2 years to get rid of these money sucking elk. :0 Because I get the fenced areas! And no, that area(s) doesn't have "proper" horse fence, but I will still use it!
Ladies, I'm off on a tangent again. Apparently I must have adult ADHD or perhaps the beginning of Alzheimers. I suspect Dr. O would like these discussions to be succinct and on subject so they may be of some use to some one searching for the ACTUAL SUBJECT. Ha. Hen House is Full of Noise. But. What it has done (the tangent) is made me realize I need to return to "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff". Maybe be a little more like I was 35 years ago, enjoying a horse.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 5:15 pm:
Ditto Vicki to what life with horses was like when I was a kid. How did it get some complicated? KISS principle needed!
Nancy, I have flat pastures, sandy loam. I have no clue how I will handle spring thaw, and the mud on the track. I may reseed it, keep the horses in their former winter area, and treat the track as new pasture later. I will be out of hay come spring due to feeding heavy last 2 months, and for the PP concept to work properly, I need hay all summer I think. I just started the PP last summer, so I will up date my original post on it as it progresses.
I think it was titled "Making tracks, my paddock paradise"
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 7:43 am:
Transitioning horses to barefoot is a little scary when you have dealt with bruised soles that leave them very sore and can turn into laminitis.
We can not protect them from the hard ground forever, but I don't find TRUE winter ground(frozen solid and jagged) to be the best to start the transition with.
Nor do I think sloppy muddy stuff to be the best either, tends to soften up the soles. Flat hard ground would be ideal, with some forgiving ground thrown in, but alas when do we ever have ideal conditions
Vicki, you will get many suggestions but you have to follow your gut, I KNEW the last time I pulled Hanks shoes he was finally ready... before that I didn't think he was and he proved me right... of course poor trimming ect. came into play there too.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 8:21 am:
diane, bruised soles/laminitis/etc. is my fear combined with my "not so much practical experience" dealing with poor feet and transitioning feet.
I don't want to be neurotic, but feet appear to be volatile structures which can take a bad turn in less time than it will take me to figure out what happened, how to fix it, and how to avoid it again! And of course finding a professional to help compounded my anxiety.
But. The trimmer seems to be going in the right direction. I liked her manner. I feel my farrier will not shun me. I like his demeanor. I'm more informed now than before although still not a genius and it still takes too much time to think through some simple concepts and applications. So, I think I can now unclench my jaw, unclasp my hands, and breathe while Diva mare continues to transition. At least for the time being...
My gut says she is doing pretty well right now. I need to continue careful turnout, paint the wall and soles routinely w/ Keratex and Thrushbuster. Keep her feet as dry as possible from the elements. Keep the bedding pretty deep but I have cut back some after I noticed she was consistently moving the bedding around more to suit her and creating a less deep area to lie down. There are tracks all over the drylot stone now whereas a month ago she walked the same careful slick flat area. (One side is a little deeper with stone--her foot sinks about an inch or so. The other side is almost slick flat. The grade isn't much. Just enough to shed water.)
The pastures I will "take over" soon are chopped up uneven frozen ground perfect for laming a horse and will turn to clay sucking slop when thawed. Every spring we work that ground until it's smooth and replant. At least we did when ELK were on it. So, Diva mare won't be on those pastures until early summer when they are repaired or her feet are in better shape. (The next step for those pastures is for me to figure out which grass to plant! Some sparse, low carb/sugar grass!) Sheesh.
I'll have an outdoor sand/dirt arena before too long and that will be the somewhat forgiving ground we will work on.
Thanks ladies for insight. It really, really helps relieve my neurotic tendencies...
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 9:42 am:
Vicki - what a wonderful horse life you have had - I envy anyone who had horses as a child or young adult - I got my first horse when I was about 40 years old.... and though it's fun, it's not exactly like the fun times that children have with horses. So I had to learn EVERYTHING about horses in a very short amount of time, it's been fun, but stressful at times. I ride dressage only bc I am too scared to take a horse out on a trail ride!!
Anyway, we all have to do what makes us the most comfortable and to listen to what our horses tell us. Complete transitioning to BF will probably take you 9-12 months, which seems like a LONG time, but you know it will be a fast year! (we're in our 50's LOL!) And as far as horses becoming "more complicated" - I think it's like the rest of 21st century life - too many options out there!! KISS for sure!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 12:35 pm:
Oh Nancy, the horse life was pretty limited really--from about 14-20. But life experiences ARE so intense at that age. I thought I was in heaven and my friends were the luckiest people ever. We rode bareback a lot and even stupidly in bathing suits, shorts, and tennis shoes...so we could swim in the river. I don't think I owned a pair of boots until I was 19. Didn't own a saddle til I was 40! We were breezily stupid as the teen years can be. I was a moocher. I never had a horse of my own. The best gift my best friend ever gave me was her horse for a year when I was 18! She went to New Zealand as a foreign exchange student for the entire year, and I was given the "job" to ride her gelding. How awful. The horse was boarded conveniently at my boyfriend's farm which was nice, but I never really learned how to take care of a horse, just get on and "ride" someone's horse using someone else's tack. Trail was all I had. We rode in river bottom land that had only a few houses, so there was hardly ever a truck or car. Another girl let me ride her mare that had been trained WP because she "didn't like to ride". Unimaginable. I rode that mare bareback and with a saddle on a flat area of grass and pretended I was showing! Walk, trot, lope, reverse, go to the center, stand, block, and back up. Such an imagination at 16. My boyfriend saw me once when I was off in my dream land and I was so embarrassed. (It was his sister's mare.) I had been to little regional horse shows in southern Indiana when I was 13-15 with yet another girl friend, so I had "seen" WP and was copying what I had seen others do. She used to let me warm up her two horses in the make up ring at shows. We rode in a tandem bareback class once and I just thought I was a rock star at that time even though it was a little country town and a very small show. I suspect they all enjoyed my enthusiam even though I was ignorant as a stone.
So. Really I'm like you Nancy. Learning during my middle age years when my bones are much more brittle and my worry meter much more active. Ha. It's been fun recalling those days though. I'll have to start a new discussion. One with pictures and posts on topic1 hahaha. Geez, for $7 bucks a month I can run Dr. O's server into the ground.
I would like to learn dressage, but most of the barns around me are full of kids taking lessons and I really prefer to be among adults at this stage of my life for a while. Taught 15 year olds for 23 years and loved it and had four kids, but I am ready for some adult time now. I probably need to check a little more thoroughly. I think it was Leslie who was digging up prospects for me as "company" for Diva mare...not this year, but some day maybe. I plan on trail riding and camping with Diva mare. My trailer has a small 7' living quarters in it which is plenty of space for 1-2 people. Of course, I have to learn to pull it first. Don't laugh. I practiced once in the picked soybean field by the house when the ground was frozen in Dec. I shouldn't hurt anything with 300 acres to drive around on. I have a bunch of cones to make a little course. If this stinking weather would cooperate before spring....it's snowing like the dickens right now. Sigh.
I really just don't have time to clean the house, cook, do laundry, work in the office, etc. My teenage enthusiasm is on other things. Sadly I can totally relate to my 18 year old right now about not wanting to work and play all the time...
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ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 1:35 pm:
Oh Vicki,
Please, do start another discussion on "then & now" lol!!
You just provided me with my first good laugh of the WEEK..yup, it's been one of those kind of weeks! Things are looking up as of now, and laughing at your memories and new goals for your future made my day.
Don't be so sure about being safe in the 300 acre field, my hubby has a story of hitting the only tree in a huge field on mini bike in his younger years. Or maybe it was his best friend driving, and they both hit? Grrrr...my brain cells don't retain info these days, ha ha!
Don't forget to add learning how to trim Diva mare in your spare time, ;-).
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 3:43 pm:
Good luck with the Diva, Vicki.
The descriptions of your soil conditions almost make me appreciate my sand hills.
Fun to read about others' experiences, comfort zones and fears.
I started riding in my forties and was nervous for years if riding inside of fences, because that was what I was injured badly on nearly 15 years ago. Out in the woods and on the trails was where I found my safe place, until I began doing the dressage work and riding on the drill team.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 4:54 pm:
BF Dressage at FEI:
https://www.hoofcareunltd.com/Emma%20Hindle.htm
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 5:04 pm:
Wow! Thanks for posting the link. That sure looks like a "whole lotta" horse. Makes Diva mare look like a plug. But A DIVA PLUG.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 6:58 pm:
Thanks, Nancy -- Good site.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 11:40 am:
Vicki Z, I would like to ride with a drill team some day. Diva mare was always used as a drill team horse and parade horse. We'll see! I think I'll take my soils over FL heat.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 8:00 am:
Nancy - glad you mentioned you are doing Dressage .
I would like to ask you people to look at the site sent to me - about ROLLKUR . And sign the PETION it if you feel as negative about it as I do .
WWW.no-rollkur.com
I would like to hear from you about it .
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 8:09 am:
Small www please .
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 9:47 am:
Anna-Marie - the petition is flying around the dressage world here and most people that I know have signed it. Have you seen the video "If horses could speak"? Rollkur and "hand riding" are both discussed in that video. But actually, we should not be posting in the "barefoot area" of this website, I don't think? Though the petition can be signed by everyone, not just dressage riders.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 11:18 am:
Thanks for posting the link. As Nancy said, this is a big topic in the US, as are other typed of "training" that are cruel. Dressage, unfortunately, isn't the only discipline that has questionable practices used. As more people become aware, hopefully current rules will be enforced and new rules put into place as needed which will protect the horse.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 5:04 pm:
Yes Nancy - it is already in another posting .
Just to mention - my arena has also unsifted river sand (small stones ).
Sara, the worst are the Judges at ALL levels of competition. They tolerate bad riding .
Lots to talk about all abuse of animals.......
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 8:07 pm:
Barefoot trimmer was here yesterday. Diva and I earned an A for improvement.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 8:13 pm:
Picture from the ground level. After trimmer.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 8:21 pm:
left front. I'm too far to the right of the picture so it's not so great.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 8:23 pm:
left front. little off bars and tiny bit off toe at sole
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 8:25 pm:
I'll have to start a new discussion so Angie can load it...and take more pix
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 9:05 pm:
Vicki,
Can we get a front shot, shoulders to feet. I want to see how unpidgeon-toed she is.
Also, the first picture you posted is a perfect example of how far up the wall to rasp ( not much).
Diva's feet are coming along very well.
Good job!
Rachelle
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 9:09 pm:
Thanks Rachelle. Of course, it isn't me, it's the barefoot trimmer. And she is "less" pidgeon-toed although still more on left front but I think the trimmer takes more off the medial side to try to compensate for this--than the farrier did. I looked back at the picture Dec 7 with shoes on and it is much more pronounced then.
That's all the Pix I took after the trimmer left yesterday as I had to run to town to take son to Dr. appt...no horse time today but tomorrow I will have more time. Diva's attitude is much brighter I think; perhaps her footes feel better?
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 9:35 am:
Vicki, I think Diva is not very pigeontoed - I think your problem with her feet has been the farriers you have had in the past. You'll find that with good trimming most of it will just disappear.
Her feet look excellent for a horse that has only been barefoot a short time. I bet next time the nail holes will be gone.
I have one question - did the trimmer tell you why he/she trimmed the sole at the toe? I was wondering if it was some specific thing with your horse.
The bars look very good. As time goes on, you'll see the heels "relax" and the frog become more robust. The sulcus will open more and she'll become more comfortable.
I notice with my horses, that unlike when the farrier came and they were always sore, after I trim my horses they always seem to feel better - so I bet Diva feels better too! You must be very pleased!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 9:58 am:
Nancy the only reason she took the bit off the toe was to make it so the wall/waterline hit the ground before that bit of toe hit the ground. I think that's what she said? Perhaps Diva is still walking toe first more than heel? Not sure. We had zero bruising on Diva mare. And she thought Diva mare was leaning toward too thin. ! Also, she did say that because of the ptoe Diva wears down her left front more on the outside than the medial side which makes the ptoe look more pronounced the longer she goes between trims. I told her to come as often as she thinks is necessary, but she still has me on a 6 wk rotation. I might have to learn to do some beveling between trims as Diva gets more hoof? Wouldn't dream of touching her last Dec/Jan, but we'll see...
She looked fairly pidgon-toed when I bought her and she was shod. The previous owner had owned her for 10 years, since she was a weanling, and stated that Diva was p.toed. ? Perhaps previous owner is experienced horsewoman, but not so informed on feet? All of her horses are shod from spring to first of winter and barefoot for winter...traditional.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 10:00 am:
Nancy, the bit off toe was on the medial side--the side which wears down less so it makes sense trimmer might need to take that side down to make it match the outside of the foot/sole. Right?
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 10:22 am:
OK, I think I understand and that would make sense. I just know on my horses, I was instructed NOT to remove any sole at the toe, but of course each one is different, which is why I asked you. (We must do for each horse as they need) Toe first landing would make sense, and that will change as time goes on.
Yes, it is the medial side that wears down less and needs more trimming, that is correct.
And yes, if you feel comfortable, rasp down the medial side if you notice the toe coming in during the trim cycle - some horses it is more wall, some it is more heel - you'll figure it out. You were smart to take those pictures right after the trim. But I would leave the sole trimming to the trimmer. That's where I think the inexperienced get into trouble (I count myself as one of those!)
My advice would be to not go back to feeding grain if you want your BF transition to go faster - if you think she is too thin, feed more hay. I wish I had cut back on all grain in the beginning of my transition to BF! It was a year ago that I cut out grain and only now are their white lines becoming "tighter".
It seems we know about our horses - until it comes to the feet!!! - LOL, so I bet that was the previous owner's situation. At least she took off the shoes in the winter - in my ignorance, I did not, and kept my horses shod 12 months a year. Live and learn!
You must feel very relieved, and you won't believe how fast it will be that she'll be going really well BF!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 11:32 am:
Not sure if I totally understand, but I'm repeating what I think the trimmer said...
I would never dream of touching a sole on anything...at this point in my uneducated hoof life!
Doesn't it mean...if a toe is too long, then from the point of frog to front of hoof wall is too long and this will shorten up as the toe is backed up over time?
And because the space between point of frog and front of the hoof is too long, the break over is too far back which causes problems and a toe first landing? And as the space from point of frog and front of the hoof shortens up, the breakover will move farther forward and allow for a heel first landing?
Don't laugh if I'm totally confused...
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 1:57 pm:
Vicki, by "back" and "forward" what do you mean? I use "back" to mean toward the heel and "forward" to mean toward the toe. As the space between point of the frog and front of the hoof shortens, the breakover moves further back toward the heel. A long toe moves the breakover more toward the front and is more stressful to the laminae and can contribute to stretching the white line. When I read your above post, I'm confused too! I think it's terminology. I think a breakover too far forward would contribute to toe first landing which you don't want.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 2:26 pm:
Back toward heel, forward toward toe.
My logic was backwards (aka wrong) with the breakover. (It wasn't a typo.) Moving the break over BACK is what I want and will happen with a shorter toe.
thanks for posting so I can correct my thinking. Sheesh.
I overloaded my brain the past 18 months with first one thing then another. Barn, what type? Roof, what type? Dry Lot, How big? Stall, what type? Fans, what type? Tack room, how to organize? Flooring, what type? Waterer, what type? Fencing, what type? Saddle, what type? Bit, what type? Nutrition, egads, Pasture, How much? Grass, what kind? Trainer, where/who?, Outdoor Arena,...you get the picture. And all the while I've been trying to educate myself on these FEET.
And of course, I research everything to death and probably over complicate the whole process.
Back in my youth, I was just blissfully ignorant. Now, it seems I'm anxiously ignorant.
ANd I haven't even started on actual horsemanship IN the saddle.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 4:45 pm:
Hey Vicki, loading fine, and I can still type in "real time" so we're good yet, lol!
I like what your trimmer did, good job IMLO. (Is "in my limited opinion" something that makes sense? No..my opinion isn't limited, my experience is..IMLE..how's that?!)
I don't think Diva mare is pigeon toed either.
Looking good, thanks for the update.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 4:46 pm:
Vicki, you were right, though, about the area being too long from tip of frog to toe, that this causes the problem with the WL, however, Julie's terminology is the more commonly used.
The part of the trim that I was originally asking about was the sole trimming from UNDERNEATH, not the toe itself coming back. Bringing the toe back, I do that every other week with my IR guy to keep everything "OK". But what I THINK I see in your photos is actually a trim of the SOLE from underneath, not the TOE. (If I knew how to draw on these things, I would do so!) As if the toe callus was trimmed out. BUT, perhaps what I am seeing is just an artifact and not an actual trimming. It's no big deal - if she is better, that is what counts!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 5:50 pm:
Nancy, I did understand you about the sole I think. The toe area of the sole--more a little to the medial side. She said a sole toe callous that was longer than the wall should be removed so the wall is a bit longer so it takes the shock before the sole? At least at this point in her rehab? If I'm remembering correctly.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 5:55 pm:
Glad you think I've got a decent trimmer Angie. That makes me feel better1
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 9:02 am:
Vicki, I understand now - LOL! That makes a lot of sense, you do not want the sole hitting before the wall during rehab, that is exactly correct. You will see the sole and wall become stronger and almost seem to be "one piece" in about 6-9 months. The trimmer sees to know alot; I think you have a good one!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 9:31 am:
Vicki what a big difference from the pics you posted of her in shoes. You and your trimmer are doing a good job!
I don't think she looks PT either, Glad Diva is holding up well during her transition, your commitment is to be commended
I am curious yet to see if her canter improves undersaddle
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 9:43 am:
Yay for better looking feet! Glad you all think so.
My commitment has been trying to locate a professional who can take care of feet! I've run through 4 now in 18 months...which could make me a hard to please customer or dedicated depending upon one's perspective!
And of course my frantic commitment to deep bedding and limited turnout and excessive worry.
The trimmer was amazed at the difference in Diva's personality. She felt Diva was more eager and less timid and closed in during this second visit. She felt Diva was bright eyed and interested and offered her feet with the gentlest of taps--even the hinds. She said Diva was showing more of her personality. I saw the difference also, but to me they seemed more subtle--but that is Diva. She isn't one for BIG movements most of the time. And of course I see her every day. I do think her feet feel better.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 9:59 am:
I'm trying to load 12/7 and 2/17 pics of front...
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 10:01 am:
This is 12/7
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 10:03 am:
So today will be the goal to take a pic of her from the front shoulder to ground like Rachelle said.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 12:59 pm:
WOW! There is such a big difference in her feet - well done!
And good for you that you weren't happy to "settle" on a trimmer/farrier that wasn't what you needed.
Be sure to take some concavity shots of both front feet - those will really be what you'll need for comparison a few months from now, to see how the sole depth is improving.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 7:32 pm:
Diva walked off fine on concrete/wet & soft gravel drive/pavement this evening. She was careful in her steps in the gravel drive. (hand walking)
I walked backwards in front of her; she is definitely landing heel first in the front. Yay!
However, the ptoed front left is still causing a problem--toe dragging and stumble once in awhile. Would it be appropriate to bevel gradually steeper from the middle of the toe to the medial (inside) to help her breakover with the ptoe front left? It looks like the medial side of front left is longer when she walks--the way she carries and places her foot may be distorting the image? The pix above after trimming look level in the front. Hmmm
Or is the trouble just because the toe is still too long and will have to be backed up over time? And I have to make the best of it and wait?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 8:19 am:
Vicki Hank was rolling from outside to inside for years, even looked a little PT...which he's not. When I finally got brave enough to do something to his hooves, that was one of the first things I did he was unlevel. It helped him immensely and all I did was take off a few slivers on the high side.
After doing some of this myself I can see how easy it is to leave them a little unlevel...especially on the outside left...I have a hard time with that side for some reason..of course I'm not a professional either!
I think I need to buy myself a small level when I go to Wally world today
Glad Diva is moving well!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:00 am:
Vicky, I was told that when the horses are transitioning, and "relearning" to use their feet, it's the medial side of the feet that seem to remain higher due to footfall, since that is often the side that isn't being "used" as much (from incorrect shoeing from before), so it's common. IMHO - I think you are right about it -BOTH with the need of taking a little off the "high" side, as well as the toes needing to come back more. Perhaps what is happening is the foot shape is not permitting a straight break over, but it is almost as if the breakover is on the side of the foot?
I agree with Diane, since you are very careful about this mare anyway, I think you could take a rasp and take off some slivers as she suggested. ALSO, I think if you feel confident in 2-3 week, take a few swipes with your rasp on the toe - from the "top" straight down, just to keep the toe where it is now. Look at your photos you took, and you'll see what your trimmer did, and do exactly that. Don't do anything that makes you uncomfortable, but if you can keep the toe backed up, it will shorten your transition time. Certainly the next time your trimmer comes, ask her to show you how to do a "midterm" toe beveling. You don't have to do much to be very effective. And from the top, there is less chance of doing anything harmful.
MY QH was pigeontoed in about 45 degrees, and my two farriers told me he was "hopeless", he could barely trot or canter. In 18 months, I not only have him sound all the time (when he was LAME all the time with shoes), but his PT is nearly completely gone. All I did was do as Diane said, take some off the medial side, and kept the toes short (back). The poor horse could not even canter in the pasture, he looked so pitiful. Now he is Mr. Speedy out there! All because I kept his toes short and feet balanced - and I had NO IDEA what I was doing, other than reading a few articles, but I knew that I was smarter than some of these "farriers". (And in my case, more sober)
I recently talked to an ex-farrier who is trying to learn to be a BF trimmer, and he told me some horror stories from what they teach at Farrier school. He said some schools are better than others, but, as you can imagine, it's all concentrated on the shoes and not the trim. He said that at one farrier school he went to (to observe), the instructor told the students that during a trim that they should cut the foot down enough that if they saw blood, that was OK!!! He said that he could not believe his ears, but they were advocating trimming excess foot to keep from having to "return to often" and to "keep the breakover short enough". They also teach to trim the toe FROM THE BOTTOM, instead of from the front, as your trimmer has correctly done. When he told me this, I knew what had been wrong with my one gelding for years. These "men" took my horse and lamed him for YEARS - and sadly I let it happen out of ignorance.
Good for you that you took charge of Diva's feet!!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:02 pm:
Nancy yours is a farrier horror story for sure. My farriers weren't that bad; however, supposedly 1 of the 3 farriers I had was "tops" in his field, officer in farrier organizations, and shoes full time. None of my three comes close to your stories.
And I took more charge/responsibility for Diva's foot care because she wasn't getting any better and she had severe toe bruising Jan 09 due to farrier incompetence and my ignorance. And we escaped without founder, rotation, or abscess by some stroke of luck. Perhaps God looks out, at least once, for fools?
My trimmer actually used nippers and then rasped. I was surprised.
So, ...take a few swipes with your rasp on the toe - from the "top" straight down, just to keep the toe where it is now...
Does this mean if I'm holding her front foot so I'm staring at the sole, I take the rasp on the outer wall, no farther than 1/3 of the way up of the outer wall, bring the rasp straight down to the bottom of outer wall? (And actually the movement of the rasp is up because I have her foot upside down in my hand?) Can I then check for flare with a straight edge from coronet to bottom of hoof--and if I see daylight between straight edge and hoof wall, then I have flare still?
Geez. The rasp I have looks awful rough. Maybe I should buy a finer one?
Could I bevel with the rider's rasp...?}
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:04 pm:
Diane, I don't know if I can tell if the LF is level or not...but surely I can't hurt it too bad if I just take a tiny bit?...
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:09 pm:
I don't know if you can see in the photo, but the picture of LF solar view after the trimmer had just trimmed...you might be able to see Diva's waterline is wider at the quarters and thins to hardly anything between the pillars.
Makes me nervous. Trimmer said it would take time and more new hoof growth.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:26 pm:
Vicki what I did when I first started was just use the Riders rasp on just that side..put quite a bit of pressure on it as you are going back and forth..it will take off a little bit, plus keep the wall rounded... I think that would keep you safe.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:40 pm:
That sounds better Diane than picking up a RASP...eegads.
I reread the following from www.barefoothorse.com and as little as 1/16 can cause a horse to toe in (or out)...hmmmm. I think her breakover is at a slant with the medial side of the breakover being farther back toward the quarter. ? Or do I have the visual backwards for a ptoed left front?
"Trimming for imbalances
Once a foot is consistently landing heel-first, with the walls trimmed to the level of the sole, even a very imbalanced foot should re-shape itself gradually towards side-to-side balance. In Gene Ovnicek's opinion, we should let the foot change in its own way and at its own speed -- especially a very imbalanced foot, because the imbalance can be due to the coffin bone sitting unevenly inside the hoof capsule, or even taking on an uneven shape. I have several coffin bones like this, they must have been shod crooked for a long time and the bone adapted to the imbalanced trim.
However, this doesn't mean we can be sloppy in our trimming. A "high spot" of as little as 1/16 inch (1 or 2 mm.) somewhere on the wall can make a horse very uncomfortable in his joints and can make him toe-out or toe-in. Finding and trimming a high spot will immediately make the horse more comfortable and you should be able to see the difference in his legs. A leg with a completely balanced foot looks "like a tree growing out of the ground" -- straight and vertical.
The heel-first landing (see Breakover page) is the best way to help the coffin bone re-shape itself. When the foot lands on the heel, flexion and circulation work the best and the hoof is capable of amazing changes and self-rehabilitation. "
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:55 pm:
And what about this from www.barefoothorse.com?
...Toes
Because the hoof is not a square vertical object but grows forward at a slant, there are two directions that we can trim the toe, so we need two ways to talk about it.
A long toe means that, looking at the bottom of the hoof, the wall has grown beyond the sole. To shorten the toe means to cut the excess wall length on the bottom, until it is level with the sole.
A forward flared toe has a weakened white line (laminar) connection to the coffin (pedal) bone and sticks out too far in front, causing a late breakover. It may or may not be longer than the sole; farriers often shorten the toe underneath and cut the toe callus cut away, so that the coffin (pedal) bone has very little sole protection -- even though there is a toe flare.
With late breakover of the front feet, there may be forging (hind foot hits front foot because front foot cannot get out of the way soon enough) and/or a shortened stride. And, crucial to soundness, you will see the foot landing toe-first or flat, rather than the correct heel-first landing (See Breakover page).
To back up a forward-flared toe means to cut the excess forward-flared wall, with either a vertical cut or a mustang roll (rounded bevel), to a position where the horse can break over correctly. The vertical cut, or the curve of the mustang roll, should go all the way to the edge of the sole, which in a forward flared foot has grown forward past its correct position.
We trim forward-flared toes this way until the wall has grown down with a new, tight white line (laminar) connection all the way from the coronet to the ground, which may take several months to a year. After a forward-flared toe has grown down unflared, you can change to a regular mustang roll which ends at the center of the "water line," the layer of white, unpigmented wall between the outer wall and the "white line" which actually looks yellowish in color.
The toes on the hind feet are very important to the horse's movement. Hind feet almost always land heel-first, due to the zig-zag arrangement of the hind leg joints. However, forward-flared hind toes cause a late breakover of the hind legs. The horse cannot move in collection because there is not enough time for the hind legs to reach all the way forward. For the horse to carry the rider's weight effectively, the hind toes should be backed up to the white line (yellowish color), especially in a horse whose heels tend to run under and toes tend to grow forward..."
Diane, putting a mustang role through the waterline and white line to the sole on Diva mare to fix a forward flare? Doesn't opening the white (yellow) line cause more problems?????}
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 9:22 pm:
Vicki I am no expert! IMHO I wouldn't go into the WL unless you have a flare that you can't get under control. WHY do you want to do that???
BUT if you are going by what you put above about flares, I don't think Diva has toe flare according to your pictures. IMHO keeping her beveled even just with the riders rasp between trimming may be enough.... she doesn't need anything that radical.
HMMMM Vicki I think you need to learn patience like the rest of us are trying to do!
A hoof that has had the forward toe and long heel can not be fixed quickly usually, sometimes it seem they can never be made quite right... however you have a VERY good start...
Start running the RR around her hoof wall a couple times a week, I found if you push down harder it works much better than just running it around it... Have you tried it yet??? I still finish Hanks hoof off with that.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 9:41 pm:
I agree w/ you Diane. When I read the "Toes" section of the article on barefoothorse, I about fell over. I'd never dream of going into the white (yellow) line! I'm nervous about laying a rasp on the outer wall! Perhaps the author is referring to a real hard luck case?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:02 pm:
 
12/7/09
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:04 pm:
2/17/10
left front
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:14 pm:
I think you are getting flared toes with stretched wl's confused with a long toe... I think the article above addresses the 2 differently
Ex. In Hanks case going back to the WL would make sense and that is where I start my rocker/bevel..but he has a stretched WL and had/has toe flare so the WL needs to be relieved..abducting forces removed so it can grow in tight again.
In Diva's case she needs her toe brought back (as does Hank) but she doesn't have a toe flare or stretched WL..Right?? So by keeping her toe moving back and beveling in between should work...just takes time... that's my take on it
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:23 pm:
 12/7/09
 2/17/10
Left front.
Is it my imagination or is the bar on the right side of the photo getting straighter? And is the foot a little better balanced from side to side? Is the heel a smidgeon farther back on 2/17? And look at the sole trimming done on 12/7/09.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:26 pm:
I think you are right Diane--was making long toe w/ flare and stetched WL the same as long toe. See...this is why I keep rereading. And I used to teach remedial reading...!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:48 pm:
Her heals appear to be moving back and her bars straightening. I haven't been doing anything to Hanks bars.. in the LIM trim I think it said once the hoof starts remodeling the bars will take care of themselves and at this point his seem to be so I am going to fly with that so I don't have to learn how to use a knife YET. That rasp is hard enough to figure out!
It sure looks easier than it is!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 7:34 am:
It doesn't look easy to me. Looks like brain surgery. Do you think the widest part of her left front foot has moved forward from 12/7 to 2/17?
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 9:45 am:
Vicki, "from the top" - means you put the horse's foot on a hoof stand, so that you are sighting down the foot from the coronet band DOWN to the toe. WAIT until the trimmer comes back and have her show you how to bring the toe back, rather than trying it yourself right now. Nothing bad will happen if you wait. And you'll need a new rasp for sure, so get one before he (she?) comes back.
Your mare's feet are so much better than in December - right now, unfortunately, patience is the key!
Yes, even 1/16" could make a pigeontoe - but again, this all becomes more clear with daily observation. Since you were a teacher (right?), you know that some things just take doing it over and over and over again. That's what it takes to learn about feet - and if your trimmer does not mind, ask if you can video the next trim session and then watch it yourself! I did that and it was amazing what I learned!!
I agree with Diane, use the rider's rasp FIRST and get used to it before you do anything else.
BARS - each horse is different as to how the bars grown and how the foot uses the bars. I have 3 horses that hardly ever need their bars trimmed. I have one horse - who had the stretched toe and WL that y'all were talking about above, and I have to trim his bars and heels every TEN days, or his foot gets out of whack. And don't say "oh, I could never use a hoof knife" - watch your trimmer and they'll show you - learn over a period of time. I found that when I say "Never" and "horses" in the same sentence, I am always mistaken....
Vicki, you have an excellent trimmer, and take the opportunity to learn as much as possible at every visit - ask questions, have them show you how to handle a rasp, ask about hoof knives - even if you don't want to get one - and ask how to use a hoof stand. These are invaluable skills - because you never know when you will need these skills - a trail ride, your trimmer is sick/moved/whatever.
Your mare's feet look better than the my "problem" gelding - you have had your horse BF for 2 months, and he is nearly 2 years BF -so, I think you are off to a good start and you'll be riding her before you know it. Probably before I am riding him.
The most importantly, remember, than a trim can only do so much - your mare needs exercise (once the ground is OK) and a healthy diet. This means she will need to be worked 5-6 days per week, and then her feet will really improve. In those articles you quoted above, they all talk about movement. Crucial for BF.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 11:04 am:
Patience I have. Apprehension is my problem. 1/16 can make a toe in or toe out so I'm reluctant to goof that up even further.
Yes, I agree with you, the best teaching strategy (for my middle schoolers) was repetition done by rote then repetition of PROCESS but with different subjects was the best way to learn. Then the next step is teach someone else--then one really knows the material and the process as she can communicate it clearly to another. And go at it (teach) from different angles in the learning process as all students have different learning styles and speeds. Some learn over time and some learn with one big "ah-ha" moment. This is the short version of my methodology in the classroom...
I am just now after several months getting a handle on the vocabulary of the hoof, farrier work, and barefoot trimming work. And often folks do not use the same vocabulary or often they use multiple synomyns in their own explanations which leads to confusion. I have sorted nouns, verbs, and adjectives regarding this whole foot business until I think I know what folks are talking about--most of the time. Which still isn't good enough, but I'm getting closer. The nouns were easier. The verbs, action, are tricker as it involves me doing something!
So, thanks for the explanation of "backing up" and "beveling". That definitely helps my comprehension.
I think it's a good idea for me to get hoof stands, finer rasp, and some sand paper strips to put in my inventory.
I think if I book a "learning" appt separate from my rotation trimming appt, my trimmer will be happy to take extra time. But I don't think she can during my regular rotation appt because she has clients booked before and after me.
Good idea. I may be ready to receive info/instruction from her at this point as my knowledge base is a little bigger and I have a clearer picture of my goals and how to get there
It does take some time wading through so much material and opinions.
And of course, like everyone, feet are not the only thing I have to do in a day.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 6:29 pm:
I asked barefoot trimmer today about the narrowing waterline at the toe and she said it is where Diva mare breaks over and she is pidgeon-toed as the waterline is thinner, farther on the medial side.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 7:57 pm:
Vicki,
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Notice how much less of the frog is in front of the widest part of the foot in the Feb photo. That shows your foot is shortening up. You now have a ratio of about 50% in front and 50% in back of the widest part of the foot. When the ratio gets to 2/3's in back and 1/3 in front your horse will be landing properly, she'll be breaking over where she is supposed to and there will be no stress at the toe.
Also notice that the farrier has done a field trim, no bevel and the bottom is flat ready to accept a shoe, whereas the trimmer, beveled and brought back the toe for a much better breakover.
Rachelle
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 9:19 pm:
And the sadder news Rachelle is the farrier on 12/7 was not putting shoes on. That was the day the shoes were pulled.
I am encouraged with the improvement in only 72 days.
Do you think Diva will stumble less when she gets to 2/3 and 1/3 versus the 1/2 and 1/2 she is at now? It seems like she drags her toes and then stumbles. It would make sense; sure hope it's true!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 7:55 am:
Vicki,
Unless its an unsoundness, laziness or a paying attention problem, she should get better. I know my mare did. As soon as I got my mares shoes off and trimmed properly, she quit stumbling when she went slow (walking to the track).
Rachelle
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 10:58 am:
Vicki just had to say I love your methodical approach to sorting out all the terminology =) And I wholeheartedly agree that the best way to check for understanding is to try to teach someone else .. can really point out the holes in one's knowledge!
My gelding who had a tendency toward an underrun LF and tripping has gotten much better about it as I have kept after his breakover point over the last few years. It took me adjusting his feet every two weeks to get there though; even at 5-6 week intervals his toe would get way too long. And even now if I don't keep after him he will revert.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 3:43 pm:
Shannon, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so methodical keeps me sane...
Rachelle, Diva mare is on the lazy side and tends to rubber neck at a walk gawking at everything when we are out for a stroll. So perhaps inattention is also at work with her stumbling.
Denny, the trainer this fall, said she would benefit from walking/trotting cavaletti so she would pick up her feet better.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 10:25 am:
Vicki - just wanted to let you now that I have been spraying all my horses' hooves with Apple Cider vinegar and tree tea oil for 60 days, every day, and the results are amazing! The hooves are all much harder and the frogs - though still not what they should be, with all this mud - are better. If you have not tried this with Diva's feet, you have nothing to lose, it is so inexpensive. My old gelding who was pretty tender on gravel is now galloping across it! I would not have believed it could happen so fast or so inexpensively - I tried hoof hardeners for 2 years previously....
Hope Diva is continuing to transition well!
nancy
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:00 pm:
Thanks for posting Nancy! Do you spray the sole and frog and the outside wall? Or just the sole/frog?
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 8:47 am:
I normally spray the entire sole and frog - being sure to get into all the frog crevices, but occasionally I will spray the wall. Since I trim them myself, sometimes I will soak the feet in a mix of water and vinegar in order to make the bars softer and easier to trim. I have found that this soaking did NOT affect the hardness of the sole negatively; it did not soften the sole at all. The toe cracks that I had for over 2 years are nearly grown out - I think a combination of my learning better trimming is helping, plus the vinegar is discouraging microbial and fungal growth. My hardest "project" gelding now has some concavity for the first time in his life; I don't think the vinegar is the "sole" reason (LOL), but it certainly helped clear up the softness of the sole.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 10:09 am:
Nancy,
What is the solution mix for the Tea tree oil and apple cider vinegar and the Vinegar water soaking solution?
Thanks
Rachelle
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 11:47 am:
This is from my trimmer's website:
"ACV and TTO
Great for small, sickly frogs, thrush, etc. in horses transitioning to
performance barefoot from shoes or from a poor barefoot trim
The best way to treat thrush, and then to prevent it from ever returning is a good performance
barefoot trim, 24/7 turnout, and a forage-based diet with little if any grain products. If your horse
has poor, weak frogs from contracted heels, etc., he may need a little help in the beginning. In very
severe cases I may recommend CleanTrax (a commercial preparation originally developed for use in
hospitals, which is safe for horses), but in most cases, ACV and TTO will do the trick!
ACV=apple cider vinegar. Purchase only the unpasteurized variety, which is available at Whole
Foods or Wild Oats, and also online. The grocery store variety is useless for this purpose. SEE NEXT
PAGE FOR INFO ON MAKING YOUR OWN “GOOD” ACV!
TTO=tea tree oil. You can get it at Whole Foods or Wild Oats as well. It comes in a tiny bottle and
you only use a very small amount at a time.
Do EITHER or BOTH of the procedures below at least once a day. You can spray
several times a day if you are able.
ACV (apple cider vinegar) soaks. You can do this w/ soaking boots (get 2)—my favorites are
Davis boots (I do NOT like the Easysoakers as they are horrible to get on and off). Use warm water
mixed at a 1:10 (ACV/water) ratio and put into the boots once applied. Soak for 30-40 minutes as
often as you can. Most horses will stand quietly in the boots once they are used to them. Put them
on when you are grooming or feeding and have horse confined for a short period. They are not for
turnout.
ACV and TTO (tea tree oil) spray. Get a spray bottle and fill w/ straight ACV (not diluted).
Add about 10 DrOps of TTO. Shake and spray directly into the frog—hold the nozzle right up against
the "butt crack" in those frogs and pump the solution in. Does a great job of clearing out the fungus
that is inevitable in contracted heels and promoting new frog growth."
I personally soak using ziplock bags - it works best for me since I have four horses with different size feet. I double the bags and they last a really long time if the horses are occupied with hay in their stalls.
To make your "own" ACV, just buy the grocery store kind and add 1 c of the "natural" kind and let it sit 2-3 weeks and you'll have the ACV you need.
Good luck! My gelding is galloping around the pasture - and it has literally been years since he felt comfortable enough to do that. His dressage movement is returning, even at the age of 19.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 10:20 pm:
Vicki how is Diva doing? You haven't given a report for awhile, she must have gotten trimmed again recently? Hope everything is going well.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 7:32 am:
Thanks Diane. I haven't posted too much as J, F, and M were BUSY outside of my horse world. However, my volunteer commitment is finished tomorrow so that gives me 18 hours a week back!
Diva mare has done well this six week cycle with the exception of the 10 day lame period when the weather turned. I think her hinds are in pretty good shape judging by the depth of the collateral groove at the back and at the apex of the frog. Her fronts are still almost flat at the apex.  She needs more walking on hard ground/pavement, which should increase after tomorrow. I haven not been on her back since Dec. 7. I think her front frogs look puny, perhaps due to less stimulation as the ground has been pretty soft? I ordered the sole mates theraputic pads from the IEPA site but they aren't here yet. More movement on hard ground might be good enough to get things growing, but just in case the frogs are too puny to touch the ground much, I ordered the pads. ?
Trimmer is due Wednesday. I plan to have my son film the trimming (he's on spring break) so I can review later and still not miss anything while she's here. I plan to take digital still photos to post. Before and after. Supposed to be a decent day. She can tell me if I'm nuts to have ordered the pads. Diva is also supposed to be fitted for glove boots.
Purdue will be here soon for spring visit, so I'm debating whether to x-ray to determine sole thickness, but trimmer says I shouldn't waste the $. ?
that's the current 411.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 7:48 am:
Good I was starting to worry about her!! Look forward to your pictures. I asked about x-rays for Hanks thin soles to and the consensus seemed to be it was a waste of money
I ran across those pads when looking at hoof sights, if nothing else they look like they would be something good to have on hand... they sure weigh alot tho!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 8:09 am:
I spent a good part of the weekend reviewing my Diva foot discussions, IAEP site, Ramey's site, and barefoot for soundness/rehab sites et al... to refresh my brain cells. My conclusion after all that was more miles will speed up the transition and it's time for more miles. I had to order the 9 lb pads as Diva mare is 1300+ lbs. even "thin". So, do the pads actually weigh 9lbs? If so, maybe she'll learn to pick her feet up more energetically.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 8:16 am:
I don't know if they actually weigh that much...it would seem so. That seemed really strange to me, if I recall they didn't really state why they weighed that much... I kind of wondered if that wouldn't create tendon/ligament strain???
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 8:22 am:
I was wondering if it has something to do with the pad density vs the weight. We'll see. 9 lbs would be a lot to hang off the foot...
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 30, 2010 - 12:15 am:
And tonight was refreshing my brain cells on the AANCHP site which is the organization through which my trimmer is certified. And I see on the new page she has been selected to be on Certified Practitioner's Peer Support/Advisory Panel. Kudos to her and lucky me for living near her! I need to make a cheat sheet for all of the acronyms, abbreviations, etc. for all of these "natural trim" sites, organizations, etc. My brain is full.
I'll start new discussion with Wednesday's trim/photos. This one is getting too long to load quickly.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 30, 2010 - 6:42 am:
Vicki it has to be density, no way could pads weigh that much! You ARE very lucky to have found a good trimmer, looking forward to your pics!!
It's hard to believe she is 1300#'s skinny... is she tall? Hank is 15hhish and he weighs #1000 and is still a little tubby... he looks much better at #950 and he has a big QH build.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 30, 2010 - 5:07 pm:
She's a solid 15.2, halter breeding in there...
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 31, 2010 - 7:01 pm:
ANd I don't know what I was thinking when I was typing. She weighs 1030, not 1300. Cripes. Two typos in a row?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 31, 2010 - 7:05 pm:
you are always suppose to make them skinnier not fatter. I thought that sounded a little heavy for a 15.2 hh horse to be skinny!
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