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  Discussion on Hoof Critique 4...educate me!
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Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 - 8:20 am:

I took some pics of Hanks hoof in the dark to show the toe callous which didn't show up because of the flash I guess. They are not the good shots for Dr.O. either, BUT they are showing what confuses me ....what exactly is considered the heel point and how do you tell they are under run for sure???

The black circle represents where the bar meet the wall, the red circle is where his hoof wall ends which is it?? Thanks!


Closer up



Without circles...incase someone else would like to draw to help me understand

Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 - 9:03 am:

Diane,

Thanks for starting a new discussion! I started typing on the other, said forget it, I wasn't in the mood to wait for the letters to show up.

First of all, the toe callous is what you want, it's the hoofs way of building up protection for the cb and all of the inner hoof parts. It's building sole to protect! Don't touch it unless there is one high spot showing up for some reason.


When I rasp at the toe, I go straight across with the rasp flat to clean it up, (ten to two o'clock area) and I level the walls and sole to be flush. YET, I am not taking off sole! The second the rasp touches sole, I am done rasping. Then I bevel at what I think is 60 degrees (from underneath)...I am lousy at degrees, so that's why I need to get some pictures of what I am doing. I bevel that angle at the same area, 2 to 10 o'clock, make sense?

On the other post, I would call everything above (towards toe is above for me) the green line, toe area. From the tip of the frog, toe area.

You're getting it on the heel points, ya hoo!! Man, I struggled with that for months!

The black circles are where his heel point is now; they should be where the red circles are. If you DrOp a line straight through his cannon bone from the side, I bet the part of his hoof touching the ground is where the black circles are, it should be where the red circles are.

Some drawings show it different, I think the line falling behind the heels?

DrO has that on here some place I think.

At any rate, this is why I keep saying "BEVEL & BARS" Keep the toe beveled more, and backed up (not sure if he needs it backed up), the heel point will move back. Keep the bars down so they don't keep pushing the toe forward, and flaring the quarters out.

I THINK, from looking at the pictures, if right now you beveled the toe a bit, DO NOT take off TOE HEIGHT, and took the heels down, lightly beveled the rest of the wall, he'd be pretty darn close to having those heel points in the correct place.

If you laid your rasp flat, following the angle of the frog, and pulled it back (towards heel) a few swipes, that would do it.

Then, look down from the heel to the toe, and if you see any bar sticking up, (expand black circle IN, that's an area where bars may be higher) take that off with your knife. I would take the bars down so I could just catch my finger nail on them.

As I think I said before, Hank just needs a few tweaks, and you'll see major results.

And as always, remember pictures are 2 dimensional, and I am not an expert by any means. This is my understanding of things as of now, and based on my er, um, expansive knowledge from doing my 4 horses!

Anyone who thinks I am just rattling chicken bones, please take the rattle away from me! The last thing I want to do is give out false information and have DrO boot me off here!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 - 9:13 am:

This is a picture of Gem's hoof, and the showing help I was getting not so long ago.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 - 9:18 am:

Same hoof, same day. Maybe you'll see something that helps? Or maybe it'll be more confusing, I hope not.

Good example of where the bars can be high, at the end of the yellow lines.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 - 9:21 am:

In case I wasn't clear, the mark ups and notes are not mine. My hoof guru helper did that.

I think the pictures are from last winter, not that it matters.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 - 6:28 pm:

By George Angie, think I understand! Thanks for the explanation

Poor Hank, I am at a loss what to do with him, he really isn't moving too bad, but tonight there was some heat in the hoof and a pretty good DP. I think it is time to lock his butt on some soft ground. It is rather discouraging. I did notice Sam is moving a little slower too. This ground is horrible! Flat frozen ground is fine, but this rutted frozen ice peaks are even hard on my feet with thick boots on. Much as I hate to say it a couple inches of nice fluffy snow would be real nice right now!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 17, 2009 - 8:58 pm:

Diane,

Is Hank walking around on his own or is he leaving the shed because his food and water are outside?

The weather here in NJ, has been down right awful. We have been getting torrential downpours of rain that freeze with the 22 degree weather that follows right behind the rain. So either my horses are in 2 feet of mud or on very uneven frozen rutty ground. I let them tell me where they want to eat, if they are out of their shed they get fed outside, if they don't leave the shed they get fed inside the shed. I trust their judgement, they know when they can deal with the elements outside and when they can't. We had three days of below freezing weather where I do not think they came out of the shed at all for anything. As soon as the ground got to their liking out they came, So at least my horses know when they should move and when they shouldn't.

Maybe yours do to. In the kind of weather you have where you are and the frozen peaky ground, I would just leave them alone and listen to them tell you what they want to do.

If they are choosing to go out on their own, that's another story, then you may have to lock them up for their own good. I always think its better to leave them out 24/7 because I am a nervous wreck about horses running around like lunatics and getting hurt after they've been in for a while.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 6:51 am:

I haven't been feeding inside unless it is miserable out. They are normally out on the "ice peaks" staring at the house waiting/pacing for their food. I have great faith they won't run around nuts when left out, they have lived in this weather long enough to know that it a bad idea, but you never know with horses.

I think I have to blame hubby and his shed for this. He took away my round bale spot, which was always nice and soft because of the pulled out hay(probably why I had few problems last winter). When we get our fences back up this spring all of this will be taken into account, just have to get through this year!

I am very happy I finally understand the heel point After my pics yesterday and Angies description, the OMG, I get it bell went off!( a high point of my day!) I am going to very carefully work on Hanks hooves this weekend,and try to Get some good pics. Unless that is a bad idea since he is sore???

Thanks
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 7:20 am:

Just thought of a precaution here. Make sure you do not lower heels. There is a difference between what I am describing, bringing the heel point back, and lowering the heels. Keep the rasp flat.

Something else to check, if you lay the rasp across at his heels, is his frog higher or lower than the walls? It looks like a good healthy frog. Hopefully his walls are not lower than the frog?

BTW, I meant 30 degrees, not 60 on the bevel...again, pictures would be best to show what I do, I HATE thinking numbers, I like to just go by what LOOKS correct instead of remembering numbers, and formulas, etc.

If I can get someone to hold the camera this weekend, I'll try to get some pictures for you showing some things. One thing I never could find when I was starting out was those little details like how to hold the rasp, and the knife. Before and afters are great, but what you do to get to "after" is the most important.

Glad you are hearing bells, lol!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 7:35 am:

Angie his wall is not lower than the frog, and I am finally getting it!!! I will take some after pics and believe me it is going to be VERY conservative at this point. I do not like the pulse and heat I felt yesterday at all!

Look forward to your pics, now that the bell has gone off!!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 7:39 am:

This is what I THINK I would do with Hank's hoofs: The blue lines show direction of rasping. (well, actually I started out making a rasp, so ignore the lines in between the two longest lines..hey, it's morning, huh?) We are talking only a couple of swipes with the rasp.

The green line, if I took off there, I think it would LOWER his heel. We don't want to lower his heel, right?

Look at it and see what you think, I don't want to mislead you, or have you showing up on my doorstep mad because Hank is sore or worse!

Hubby just asked where you live, maybe I'll show up on your doorstep if he decides to take a road trip, lol!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 7:52 am:

See I believe I am getting it, I understand! Thanks.

Tell hubby NW Il. is just beautiful and we have a trophy buck running around here everyone is trying to get! I THINK we have another deer season the second week of Jan. He and hubby would LOVE each other

The trophy buck is going on YOUR wall tho if they get it!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 8:11 am:

Heat and pulse were way down since they were locked up, I do not want to bring on a "road founder"

Closed the gates to where the ice peaks are and opened the pasture gate where there is still some virgin snow...hopefully the maniacal pawing won't start!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 10:16 am:

Deal! Trophy buck on our wall, I'll see if I can give any hands on help with Hank's hoofs, lol!!

Good exchange, huh?

Hubby has an unfinished "man room" above the garage. Not sure what year $$$$ it'll be finished, but I don't care what he puts on the walls, as long as it's not pin up girls,

O.k., I believe you are getting it!! Can you believe I woke up before 5 this morning, thought "I need to try to trim hoofs this weekend, and oh, maybe I should add this to Hank's discussion!"

Methinks me needs to get a life! Or you need to quit posting pictures of Hank's hoofs!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 6:06 pm:

Dr.O. and all I think I got the better pictures. I put the new blades in the riders rasp and did bevel his wall a bit. You can see his toe callous he grew overnight in these. Any suggestions are welcome.




Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 6:36 pm:

Here's his hoof with him standing a little more square, I couldn't get on the ground with my knee so hope this give you a good enough idea


Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 7:25 pm:

Hi Diane,

I've been looking at all the really good photos that both you and Angie have been posting. I've been looking at Angie's pictures and trying to compare what I see in hers and what I don't see in Hanks.

Here is what I am observing. Hank is still landing on his outside wall. He needs to land on the inside wall. If you look at Angie's picture ( the one that demonstrates where the bars need to be taken down) and look at how beveled those feet are, its as if the entire wall is rounded. This allows the horse to have a much better breakover.

Also, if you look at Hanks foot ( the first one where his foot is on the ground) You can see that he is trying to grow a very nice foot from the coronet about halfway down, yet there is still some flare as it gets down to the ground.

I think he may need more angle on the bevel and a little rasping to get rid of some of the flare (a little at a time) and I still think I see bars that are too high, but it may be the picture.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 8:00 pm:

If you take a straight on side view, showing his shoulder to the ground, is this how a straight line would fall? See picture below.

If so, he's still standing under himself. Unless the picture is really tilted.

I am thinking after reading Rachelle's comments, that you cannot do enough with the riders rasp...do you have a regular rasp? I know it's hard to take a chance and worry about messing up, yet honestly, he only needs a few swipes with a rasp at this point. I think the riders rasp is taking the sharp edge off, yet I don't think it's enough of a bevel. And it won't take the wall down which needs to be done before rebeveling.

Take the rasp flat like I showed above, then go ahead and bevel again with the riders rasp.

A couple of swipes towards the heel, a couple of swipes outward, bevel again.
I think you are teetering on the fence here, being really close to taking those final swipes with the rasp. Have faith!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 8:07 pm:

Thanks Rachelle, the bars do need work and I am trying to figure out exactly what to do to them, or I guess I should say how to go about doing them. I don't have a hoof knife and don't think I am quite ready to have one in my hands either! I picked at them a little bit with the hoof pick and I think I may be able to get enough off with the pick and a mild rasping.

I'm not so sure you are really seeing a flare at the toe, I noticed that in the picture too, but in person I don't see it. I don't know if it the flash and brown on his hoof in the picture making it look that way or if he does truly have a flare there. Tomorrow I will lay the rasp against it to see.

His hairline looks pretty good I think??? I didn't get as much done as I wanted to. Tomorrow I am going to TRY to straighten them up a little better I wanted to get the better pics to form a "game plan"

I did notice his bars are "jammed" where they meet the hoof wall and kind of soft I was able to actually pull some of it out with the hoof pick. They are also laid over, he sure grew them fast! When the farrier did him 2 weeks ago there was hardly anything there.

I guess I am officially an obsessed hoof person, and with pictures in these thread I can see this going to a record number of parts. Dr.O. will probably shut me down before I get that "perfect" Hank hoof...but I am determined since I have had a taste of a sound barefoot Hank! BTW he looked good tonight since I locked them off the ice peaks, heat and pulse are gone!

Thanks for the input
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 8:16 pm:

Angie I was posting when you were. Yes I have a real rasp... never been used.

I will try it tomorrow, this does make me nervous with Mr. sensitive hooves, but I'm game! Will post pics tomorrow after I get done.. hopefully I don't lame the poor guy!

Thanks
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 8:21 pm:

good for you Diane!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 8:23 pm:

I don't know if this is a good bevel/mustang roll by "barefoot guidelines" but I am wondering if you can get that with your riders rasp? (looking at pictures always annoys me..what looks good in the barn, looks horrible to my eyes on here! I'd like to round that toe bevel off more!)

Just something to think on.

Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 8:31 pm:

You won't lame him. I know you won't be that aggressive! You will have more issues with gimpiness, pounding pulses, and more, because of not BEVELING enough, and with bar issues.

I have 110% confidence in you, I was where you are not so long ago, only I just picked the brains of one poor woman!Which is why I don't mind trying to help.

Next summer Hank will have rock crunching hoofs, and you'll be able to teach someone else. And I'll think back on this, and go "OMG, I really thought I knew what I was talking about, and I missed that, and spoke wrong about that..."

Thank God our horses, and friends, forgive us, ha ha!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 8:54 pm:

Yes I believe I can do that with the RR, I got the coarser files this time and they are awesome! I really didn't do much with it tonight...lack of daylight.

I want to put this pic with circles on here...I am so glad I learned how to circle things!!! The black circle represents where Hanks bar is ending on that side now... the red circle if you look closely you can see where I was able to hoof pick out a chunk of it it dose look much straighter now, so is it OK to hoof pick out excess bar material, rather than take a knife to it? I think I can actually do quite a bit with my hoof pick. The hoof pick I have is almost like a knife! I love it. I dug all of Hanks WLD/thrush out with it earlier in the year.

I may have to start a Hank hoof website instead of taking up Dr.O.'s bandwidth... My boys do host websites

Thanks for sharing what you have learned Angie, Rachelle and everyone else!

Member:
kpaint

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 9:15 pm:

maybe I'll get there too one day Diane after learning from everyone else's post.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 9:41 pm:

Vicki you will! you are really giving it a go with Diva, and she doesn't have all of Hanks past problems to deal with. Believe me we are not the only people that have hoof problems, it's really quite common. It's one of those things you either have to decide to fix OR ignore. In your pics with Diva in her shoes it is easy to see why she "lost" her canter. When you get that back you will know it was all worth it!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 18, 2009 - 10:47 pm:

One more drawing before I go to bed, my goal is for Hanks bars to end towards the end of the wall at some point right? something like this.

Member:
npo33901

Posted on Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 - 6:54 am:

I would like to order RIDERS RASP and please help me - there is another RASP you were talking about in the past . I cannot remember the name or the article . Thanks, AM.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 - 7:15 am:

Anna-Marie I totally for got about my travelers rasp! Thanks for the reminder! now if I can find it

Here's a link with the RR and the travelers rasp

Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 - 9:13 am:

Angie I was looking around the web at pictures ect. and guess what I found A LIM (less is more) trim The theory on the bars does seem to make sense...interesting.
https://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/LIM-trim.html

It also has some good instruction and explanations, pictures of breakover ect. This is one website I hadn't come across yet I don't think, it is helpful I think for the novice?
https://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/natural-hoof-trimming.html
Member:
gwenyth

Posted on Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 - 10:35 am:

Other websites to look at: for help with this:

https://www.equinextion.com/

https://www.hoofmaiden.com/
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 - 10:38 am:

Diane,

He's saying, IMO, that in a nutshell, or hoof shell, ;-) if you bevel/rocker the toe correctly, the bars will correct themselves.

I have found that when I took the bars down every time I tweaked, like every 2 weeks, nothing changed until I did more beveling, and with some hoofs, vertically backing the toe. I don't think you HAVE to vertically back the toe, the more aggressive beveling will get the same results, it will JUST TAKE LONGER. When I trim, I rasp flat across first, the whole hoof, then I can see where the wall needs to be addressed. I bring the hoof forward, check for flare, and back vertically if it's needed.

You should address the bars, they should never be above the outer wall. Yet I found the more I tried to take them out, the faster they seemed to grow back in!

So, to recap, bars being taken down without beveling/rockering the toe, will not see any change with the bars. They will keep going forward.

BUT, if you don't address the bars, you will keep seeing flares at the quarters. I don't think the article addressed that? If the bars are laying over, in an attempt to go someplace, they will push the (quarter) wall out.

It's a frustrating fine line to know what to do, when to do it, and how much to do. You can make a horse heel sore if you just rasp the heels to get the heel point back, and don't address the toe/bevel, or address flares all around. (sorry, not what you wanted to hear!)

You can also have an uncomfortable horse if the heel point is too far forward, flares are a constant problem, sole callous it cut away.

I dug out snow balls in hoofs this morning, and went "WOW, where did all that bar material come from??" They are 28 days without a tweak, so I need to get after them. I think Gem's hoofs look like Hanks above. So, hmmm...I may do some review myself before I touch her. I did notice what seems to be a toe callous, and if my day goes according to plan, I'll try to get some pictures.

She's my flat footed underslung gal, sigh.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 - 10:47 am:

P.s, don't rasp as close in towards his frog as your black lines show. Refer to the pic with the blue and green lines above ;-).
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 - 2:21 pm:

OK I have worked on Hanks hoof. If the results of his walking OH NO trotting on the ice peaks is any indication, I think I did OK...we'll see what y'all think

Continued https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/350846.html
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