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  Discussion on Sole calluses part 2
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Member:
cheryl

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 23, 2009 - 9:48 am:

continuation from:

Dr. O - will try on the photos today - we haven't had enough natural light for the past week to take photos without the flash -
Yesterday the neighbors horses came up to their fence by the road - both my horses went charging to their front fence - Fox was racing back and forth from the fence to the barn - probably 6 or 7 times - close to 150 yards - she was bucking - spinning - fell down once - her objective was to get Robbers away from the other horses - She was not giving any indication of soreness. When she is sore - she will NOT move out of a walk.
Yes Diane - she has foundered 17 or 18 times - I've actually lost count. That is a founder ring growing down - Cannot remember a time she didn't have one or two of them. These x-rays are from 06' - the last time I was able to actually get a vet to see herthey really aren't helpful here because they don't show her foot as it is now. I'm sure the last founder was caused by clover - the rest have been caused by alfalfa - one time two one ounce cups of an alfalfa based supplement. Actually that was the one the x-rays are from.
I will hook my husband on her this afternoon and see if I can get some better photos.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 23, 2009 - 2:10 pm:

Hi Cheryl, no these don't tell us what her CB looks like now, but has her hoof "shape" changed any since these x-rays? Unless they are de-rotated and the chronic founder stopped I can't imagine they would be any better at this point. Especially since you are seeing a stretched WL. Hanks looked very comparable to Fox's in the picture with the red circle. I know pics can be deceiving, like Dr.O. said you have a job ahead of you if her WL is close to being stretched that much. I haven't gotten Hank to optimal yet, his worst founder was in 07 and he had some pretty good bouts after that too, especially after his rabies shot. His hooves were a chronic founder, with rings like fox's.

Look forward to your pics, hopefully Dr.O. and others can start her on the road to recovery.
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 9:29 am:

I did not get photos taken yesterday - snowed the entire day - will try again today - the forecast said something about sunny - can't remember what that is but maybe it will be good for photos.
Nancy thank you very much for the web site - right now their field is nothing but frozen chunks of slush. I cringe every time they move out of a walk.
Diane - there is a small amount of dish right at the bottom of her hoof. When I started this thread I was thinking she was getting sore again because all she was doing was walking - but the past few days she has been running and pacing all over the place - If the sun comes out today should be able to get some better photos.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 9:38 am:

Good Luck with the photos. Does fox's soundness come and go with the snow/soft ground? When there was snow/slush/mud on the ground I never knew there was a thing wrong with Hank. As much as I hate snow, I always hoped we would have some for Hanks hooves.. The very hard frozen IRREGULAR ground told the tale with him. If that is the case you are very lucky to have a smart horse that knows enough to not run around on the hard ground and do more damage Unfortunately Hank wasn't that smart

Look forward to your pics.
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Thursday, Dec 24, 2009 - 6:06 pm:

Fox has always foundered on alfalfa until the last one - which was clover - Nancy - thank you for the web site - If we can manage to get rid of some ice will give it a try - even my dog can't stand up in this mess -
Larr wasns't able to help me with the photos - hope these are better:



I don't know how to draw on the photos - the dark area behind the wall is the white line



this one shows the separation clearly - I hope



Dr.O - if this one isn't what you need let me know and I'll try again.
Thanks everyone for all you help.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 9:02 am:

Cheryl a side view would probably help with Fox standing square.

Dr.O. If her WL is the way it appears in the picture couldn't that "sole callous" represent a "DrOpped sole" since the laminar connection has been lost?

Cheryl there are alot of us learning right along with you and believe me Hanks hooves were just as bad if not worse. We did follow Dr.O.'s de-rotation article to the best of my farriers ability. I can't help you in the trimming department. Out of curiosity what are the "holes" in her hoof wall around the toe area? Are they nail holes??? I circled what I am talking about and her WL just so we have it right.

I have the exact same boots and yak traks as you...I love those artic Ice tall muck boots!



Member:
cheryl

Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 11:04 am:

Diane - the big hole is the bottom of a crack - the crack is why the farrier wanted shoes on her - to stabilize it so it wouldn't spread any more - I think the other is just a small chunk of wall gone
Maybe I'm all mixed up - what I'm calling the white line is the area in front of the line you drew. The really yucky looking stuff Dr. O thought were rasp marks. Oops - I forgot to take the side view photos - will do so today
I LOVE my Muck boots - I have to wear $250 shoe inserts in my shoes - a whole slew of problems - in a lot of shoes even the inserts don't help. I can wear my muck boots all day without them - zero pain - Larr loves his too.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 11:34 am:

Cheryl That is what I meant in front of the black line is stretched WL which looks pretty wide. She seems sound on hard ground??

I have formed many opinions, but that is exactly what they are, am curious what Dr.O. thinks.

Since I wiped out my knee, Muck boots are the only thing it is totally comfortable in. I wore them until June last year hated getting out of them.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 1:51 pm:

Cheryl,
The above photos almost look like two different feet and I am still having trouble placing the margins of the white line. What looks like a 1 cm plus wide white line in the first image does not look nearly so wide, almost normal, in the second image. Where have the rasp/white line marks gone in the second photo?

There is not much doubt that the coffin bone has rotated downward toward the toe but there is probably a rather thick sole here also because when trimmed significantly (to below the level of the wall) Cheryl states the horse is sound. But you are right this is not so much a sole callus as it is a long wall badly supported by a diseased white line that breaks away easily exposing the sole to the ground. I also think the white line appears diseased with thrush further weakening the junction.

The question remains does this foot need significant derotation or simply a well balanced trim. In both cases aggressive treatment of an infected white line would be in order. A good set of foot radiographs would answer the question definitively.
DrO
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 6:51 pm:

Dr. O- the sole is above the wall - when looking straight down at the foot - what looks to you like rasp marks are curving downward - the view from the front of the hoof shows them clearly because they are higher than the wall - I hope that makes sense - If you look closely at the bottom of the wall - it's not touching the ground - not by much - but it's off the ground all the way around the front of her hoof. You think there is thrush in the white line? Will thrush buster work for that?
I read through the de-rotation article - I understand lowering the heel - I cannot make my mind see the advantage of lowering the heel and then applying a wedge pad - I know it works but I don't understand why so explaining that to the farrier is going to be rather difficult. I will go read the article on white line - I know what we did for my TB mare when she had it - this farrier is not experienced enough to be cutting away the wall of Fox's hooves. If what you are seeing is white line disease - the entire front half of her wall would have to be cut away. Am I understanding this correctly?
These are the other two photos I took today - don't know if they will help or not: The crack on the front of her toe is what the farrier is so worried about - I think it will resolve itself if we can solve her other problems. Thanks so much for all your help. I tried to get the Vet to take x-rays when she was here - she didn't feel they were necessary - there is a good possibility she doesn't have a portable.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Dec 25, 2009 - 9:16 pm:

Cheryl so you are saying she is standing on her sole rather than the walls for the most part right?

What is located forward of my black line is stretched white line(looks like rasp marks) and is actually higher than the wall. Just so we have it straight It almost looks like her 2 front hooves are quite different in the side view.

When Hanks WL was like that with his DrOpped sole...it was very similar to Fox's he started getting like a rubbery sting around the WL was the oddest thing, when I had the vet out he dug the diseased WL out, he hit a black track going all the way around under the diseased WL. Like you I don't have much in the way of vets or farriers and once he dug all the diseased WL out Hank was left standing on very long walls, which then proceeded to bust out. Had I known if we would have trimmed the walls and beveled them we would have avoided a lot of problems. Finally this year, I started digging out the diseased WL with my sharp hoof pick until the black line was gone from under it, then dumped thrush buster on it. I dug every night until I hit "solid ground" that was when his WL finally started looking healthier, and his hooves started being easier to work with.

Hopefully Dr.O. can help you with the trimming aspect, it probably would help if you would have taken the picture directly from the side so her heel could be seen better. I finally learned to take many, many pics from different angles and hope at least one would turn out to be the right angle.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 7:44 am:

Cheryl here is a link to Hanks hoof when he had the "DrOpped sole" and stretched WL that I could see from the front like fox's. I put black lines where his WL was stretched. He was walking on his sole then, but he was quite sore on hard ground.

I picture Fox's hoof looking very much like this
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20080719DrOpppedSole#5419523327023862610
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 7:58 am:

YES ! ! ! Diane - that is exactly what Fox's foot looks like - maybe a little more stretched but that is it - You dug on the webby looking stuff until you came to a black line and then just used thrush treatment - So if the wall is kept trimmed around the front - the white line should start growing back together - I hope that's what you are saying -
I was stretched out on the ground - Robbers stole my hat and one of my gloves and Fox was penning her ears and snaking her neck at him - I will do my best to get Larr out there today - I ended up sitting on the ground giggling at them.
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 8:03 am:

Diane - forgot - Fox stands toed out on the RF - I think that is why the hooves look shaped differently - if the LF were out of the way - the RF would probably be the angle you need.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 8:37 am:

Cheryl I'm not sure what you should do, that I will leave to Dr.O. I just wanted to get the "jest" of what her hoof was looking like. You are dealing with quite a separation if her WL is stretched even more than Hanks in that picture... that WL showing up lower than his wall made me rather nervous, not a very good connection holding that sole in place!!

I'll have to go look through my pictures after that pic and see what we did, though I'm not sure we fixed it the correct way, because he was usually pretty sore through the whole process unless he had shoes on.

Dr.O. or the hoof gurus can help you with that way more than I can!
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Saturday, Dec 26, 2009 - 9:59 am:

Thanks again Diane - you have been so much help- really appreciate it.
Dr. O, I have read through both articles - I know this horse and how she reacts to pain - if she were hurting she would not go faster than a walk - when it gets really bad - she just plain won't go.
If you can tell me what to tell the farrier - I think he will listen - her feet are way beyond his level of experience but at least he shows up when he says he will and I think he will listen. I hope he will listen. I will print out your articles on white line and de-rotation for him - that may help some.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 7:58 am:

Cheryl I'm sure Dr.O. will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure the de-rotation article will be easy to follow without knowing how much rotation/sole you have to begin with.

I did have x-rays taken, even tho they were pretty crappy we had an idea of what we were dealing with. Dr.O thought Fox's WL looked like it had thrush, which is different then WL disease. Is it possible to get x-rays at all?

Like Dr.O. said maybe just good trimming would do it, I always had a hard time tho figuring out just how to trim a hoof with a sole/WL protruding lower than the wall.

I don't know if you saw Hanks hoof journal in my other thread, but it shows pretty much what we went through after that picture above. One of the most important factors was getting the chronic foundering/laminitis to stop, loosing weight and cleaning up the WL. He has been in and out of shoes the last couple years, more to protect his thin sole than anything. Fox may have a thick sole. If you care to see what happened after that pic. Seems it took a long time to get that sole back where it belonged!

https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/Hooves20072009#
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 9:31 am:

Diane - I would love to have current x-rays of her feet. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen. I tried to do a slide show with your photos - it must have been too much for my computer or connection - whichever - to handle -
When I have more time I'll go back and try to select a smaller number of them for a slide show - that might work.
Dr. O here are two more photos I took yesterday - maybe they will help - I hope.

The dark area on the right side of the foot in the second photo - isn't there - it must be a shadow.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 9:50 am:

Yikes that WL really is stretched... Hanks was close to that at it's worst. Hope Dr.O. has some suggestions for you. It would definitely be in her best interest to try fixing that somehow. She must have one thick sole that she isn't sore or something.

I wish I could give you some suggestions, when Hanks hoof was like that I was at a loss too. It looks like she does need de-rotating..

Her heel APPEARS quite high and forward. I thought Hanks coffin bone was knocking on the sole when it looked like that... of course I was rather paranoid too at that point and he was sore.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 10:43 am:

Hello Cheryl,
The more I look at your foot and compare it to the radiographs above the more I think the foot has maintained somewhat the conformation seen in them over the last 3 years. I am going to use the above radiograph as a example of what I think needs to be done but there are some important caveats.
  • The yellow lines represent the toe and heel
  • The green line the solar surface which in the back is the long heels and in the front the exaggerated sole ending in the exposed stretched white line
  • The blue represents a normal foot conformation carved out of the long heels and flared toe.

Using the principles and techniques in the derotation article we have referred you to you earlier I think your chances of getting a fairly normal foot back is good with time.



Now to the caveats, I would redo the radiographs before embarking on this major change. To minimize mistakes you need to exactly establish the current solar angle and the placement of the top of the coffin bone. The toe wall and the weight bearing surface need to be clearly marked with wire. The horse has to be standing square on the elevated surface.

Once this is done the blue line given as an example above will not fall exactly where it is shown. If the above image was used the blue line would cut through sole at the toe something I avoid if at all possible as it almost always causes lameness. The fact that you have been able to regularly trim it back suggests that your case may be an exception to this rule. If it is determined this needs to be done to achieve normal conformation I would make changes slowly.
DrO
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 9:08 am:

Thank you Dr. O - you have no idea how much this helps. We are pretty much stuck in this situation until we can get moved. The criteria for out next home is close proximity of farriers, vets, and trails. I printed your article on de-rotation and I will print out your response here. Unless he is snowed out - which looks like a real possibility - the farrier is due on the 31st.
What I'm thinking is:
1 -lower the heels a little
2 -balance them with the wall up to the white line separation - trim the rest of the wall just enough it keep pressure off it when she's moving.
3 -Clean out as much of the white line as possible and treat it for thrush.
Is this sorta on track?
Again thank you so much for the help.
CK
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 1:55 pm:

Well not exactly, it appears to me the heels need a lot of work but it should be done a little at a time with the goal of returning the coffin bone to a normal relationship with the ground.

I am not sure what you mean by #2. But if it is felt their is a progressive disintegration of the white line due to I would recommend removing all the undermined wall so that all the diseased white line can be removed and treated. If this results in so much exposure of the sole you may need to either restrict where the horse goes or provide protection at turn out.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 10:26 pm:

Dr.O. one thing I could never figure out when Hank had what Cheryl is dealing with is if you have a diseased, very stretched WL...PLUS some pretty good rotation shouldn't the hoof be supported in the heel(caudal aspect) with equipak or something? I always worried with digging the WL out plus the poor laminar connection that possible further sinking and or rotation would/could occur?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 1:19 pm:

No Diane, I don't think the removed diseased wall/white line is supporting much and I don't think the use of Equipak in the heels will give the coffin bone much support. The most common reason Equipak should be used is if the sole is trimmed to thin and needs protection.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 6:35 pm:

Just trying to learn Dr.O If the whiteline is stretched way beyond normal AND there is rotation....wouldn't the sole probably be thin just from that? I know without x-rays it is hard to tell for sure.. but with Fox's "DrOpped" sole and stretched WL wouldn't thinning of the sole occur naturally?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 - 7:10 am:

I think Cheryl's case demonstrates not always Diane.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 - 7:29 am:

Interesting... so you think the "DrOpped" sole on Fox IS actually a sole callous? It is strange she is sound on hard ground so she must have a thick sole I guess. Thanks
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