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Discussion on Changing of herd order
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 2:01 am:
For the first in ten years our lead gelding has been ousted.One mare is in season and our mustang thinks he is a stud ???? Now this has been a part of our herd dynamic forever and never been a bother.This time Zarr has been driven out of the arena to the far end of the pasture.My question is will things return to normal after the mares cycle is done ??
The warfare seems to be all show but the ground is frozen and I'm worred Zarr (he's 20) will fall and the water is in the arena. Just a worried horse mom but has anyone else delt with this ???? 
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 6:42 am:
Cindy, Yes I have, Sam was always the herd leader and keeper of the mare/mares. When Hank started getting older the battle of the males started, only when a mare was in heat... otherwise they loved each other . They didn't play fight either, they fought to they were foaming with sweat and exhausted. When the mare came out of heat they were best buds again.
To this day when Flash comes in heat (once a year) The battle goes on, Sam can no longer fight the younger Hank so he is to keep his distance from the mare. When out of heat herd goes back to normal.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 8:39 am:
Hello Cindy,
What is your mare doing that makes you think she is in heat?
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 10:58 am:
 Not sure I should go into her antics She is pretty X rated.We've always called her a hussey. She backs up to the guys and throws her tail over their faces, trys to bite their flanks and swings her butt at them kinda bump'em cars "here I am Look "!
Diane, hope this ends as yours does would be very good.Zarr is my crutch as I'm not as steady on my feet as I once was so if things don't settle out the dynamics for me is Huge!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 6:51 am:
And during the winter time these cycles happen regularly: about 5 days of estral behavior during each 3 week period?
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 11:25 am:
Not normally at this time. Since we have been thru these cycles with both mares for years and nothing like this has ever occured. Zarr has always been alpha here, at his old home, at the boarding stable. My biggest concern is there is something wrong with him. Have checked him over and found nothing ! It could be his age but it happened overnite. Even my husband noticed !
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 11:44 am:
Cindy, I don't know if this puts your mind to rest at all, but I noticed my mare lost her dominant status several years back. I think she was about 17 then. At the time, it was just her and another young mare, April, who got along really well together. For these 2, it was a more gradual process, there was no drama. They are still turned out together, but now with 2 more mares. Sparkles and April still are a team, but my mare, despite being the largest, heaviest and most fit of the 4, is bottom of the totem pole. She is wary around the other 2, but seems content to let the younger members of the herd take on the responsibility
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 2:54 pm:
Fran thank you I think they will be OK but this is my heart horse and right now he is so lost. my mustang however looks magnificent as new King of the Herd! He is just a butt and Zarr has all the manners one could wish for ...........
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 4:12 pm:
Herd dynamics are always changing I think, we don't always notice though.
We had our 2 Arab mares for a couple of years, and Fancy, who was sweet and gentle, was the boss in her quiet way. Sally (TW) came along, and we had fireworks 24/7, especially after foals were in the picture.
Sally was sold, Fancy crossed over, and Willow was boss. Now, Willow is 20, and I can see her giving ground to Gem, who is 7ish. Gem tries to be very bossy and aggressive, yet Willow doesn't always give in. Sometimes she just pins her ears, and snakes her head out, other times she lets fly. And some days she just walks away.
Funny, the geldings seem to stay neutral except for a few occasions when Willow wasn't feeling her best. Then Tango, my big sissy, relentlessly DrOve her into the ground.
I guess just because he could?
I sometimes go out with whip in hand, and put Gem in her place, there are days she is just downright dangerous and needs to reminded I AM HERD BOSS when I am out there. Perhaps that would help.
And give your lost guy some extra attention until the dust settles.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 4:22 pm:
interesting observations.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 6:10 pm:
Angie I did the same thing. By george I the little old grey mare here and what I say goes Ya sure!! Altho standing in front of a charging mustang might not be the smartest!! Pest is out of her cycle now Ellie needs to get done and maybe ??? Just wish I understood why after all these years it happened at all??
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 9:01 pm:
I remember reading a Clinton Anderson post about how its important to make your horse move his feet everyday so that you remain herd leader. He said that horses do this every day with one another to assure that each horse knows their place in the hierarchy of the herd.
He said that you don't have to make a big show about it, just make sure they move their feet to yield to you everyday. I tried it and noticed that both my horses were better behaved and cooperative, just by my asking them to move over a step or two every day when I went in the stall to clean or whatever.
I wonder if small shifts may be occurring within a herd that we might not see unless we were really watching. So it would look like a sudden change, but it could have been the end result of a gradual shift that had occurred over a period of days or weeks, a few yielded steps at a time. But of course, a big change, like the gain or loss of a herd member, or a mare in heat or with a new foal, etc... would cause an easily observable shift.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 6:52 am:
I agree with the above thoughts that shifting herd dynamics is a normal event and does not necessarily mean the one moving down the ladder has an illness. The question you still have that we cannot answer is whether Zarr is in danger and possible need to be moved.
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 8:02 am:
I agree that one moving down the ladder does not necessarily mean one has an illness. I witnessed it numerous times though were a weaker herd member was driven away. Before we put Fancy down due to a messed up knee, Tango was ruthless in driving her to her knees. He was only 2 at the time. I don't know if it was to move him up in the pecking order, or if it's natures way of protecting the fittest.
Cindy,
Are things back to normal yet? I can see why many people only have geldings, huh!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 10:59 am:
Part of the trouble is I'm dealing with a mustang and if watched his behavior reflects the take over by any wild stallion.Banishment of the former leader and roundup of the mares,all two of them. Poor Pest who started all this is the most confused.The command go to your feeders has no meaning right now as the feeders have changed owners?? Zarr is unhurt and Whiskey is more noise and show.Ellie my wee war mare is fine thank you she just goes with the flow and threatens to smash anyone who doesn't believe her! Zarr is still in the far corner and Whiskey won't let him come up unless the "old grey mare" says otherwise. It will be interesting to see the fall out from all this and may never understand the Why!??
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 2:17 pm:
Jo Ann, that's really interesting, and makes a lot of sense. I'm definitely going to try the feet moving thing - bout time I got a little RESPECT around here (you think it works with people too? Husbands?)
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 4:07 pm:
LL,  I don't know, but I think that I might try it!
That makes me think of another story, about a group of psychology students who were studying about behavioral conditioning. They decided that they would try and condition their professor, who had a habit of pacing back and forth behind the podium as he spoke, to see if they could get him to only walk to the right.
So when he would walk to the left, they would look bored and yawn. When he would walk to the right, they would look attentive, smile and nod their heads. By the end of the semester, the professor was only walking to the right!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 6:44 am:
That's brilliant - what a good story! Hmm ... time for some experimenting I think
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 11:42 am:
There was also an article about its OK to look your horse in the eyes and communicate. So it is ever changing field.Zarr and Whiskey are coming to terms with things , I'm slower.Whiskey understands the board term Manners as do all mine that has been a god send!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 1:38 pm:
I can't figure out my herd. I have three. But. I think it's a herd of two and a herd of one.
The gelding hitch have been buddies for six years. Almost always kept together. They have a system of tolerating each other. The alpha gets the food and water first or else, but he will tolerate nipping and pestering from the less dominant one when food isn't involved. He tolerates it sometimes for a long time before he's had enough and finishes it.
Diva mare has always (supposedly) been "marish" around geldings and here is no different. Pins her ears, swings her fanny around, half-hearted kicks but never connects. They are side by side in the stalls and drylots and can touch if they want to outside. They haven't been together in a pasture since last year for various reasons...didn't want her run by the geldings with bruised feet...didn't want her to kick at them with shoes on her back feet, etc.
She acts like she is part of their herd if they leave the barn and she doesn't. She will call for them. And she will call to them when I bring them back. And everyone sniffs hello and that lasts for about a minute and then she is back to being the Diva mare and pinning her ears.
Is that normal?
I have always had geldings around here...hence "Diva".
Second scenario for second question. At feeding time there are days when everyone is in a huff to get the grub because the stemmy hay just isn't as attractive anymore if I'm going to be giving the "good stuff". Diva will "fake charge" the stall wall at the alpha gelding, pin her ears, present her hind end, kick at the wall--sometimes connecting, and in general act like a bratty girl. The boys have never acted that way at feeding time. They are eager, but no displays like that. When she acts like that I tell her to quit it. Go in the stall if I have to and make her move outside. In general shoulder her around. I won't feed until everyone has settled down. This may sound stupid, but I don't feed her until her ears are forward and she has nickered and presented her head to me--this is when I'm standing outside the stall at the feed bucket/window area. Is that what I should be doing?
I was operating under the assumption that I should move her feet to control the situation. I don't want to allow "horseplay in the house" so to speak. I figure it's a dangerous habit to start because I'm in the stalls a lot and I don't want to get smacked with a hind hoof. But. How much of that behavior is normal herd behavior at feeding time? How much should I tolerate, if any? Aren't I the top of the herd?
So Cindy, I'm hijacking your discussion. I've been following along trying to steal info and apply it my situation!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 3:44 pm:
Vicki,
I love what you are doing at feeding time, and yes, fantastic way of handling it. Yes ears forward and standing head first.
Many years ago, when I bought Willow, the "cowboy" who sold her to me, (and became my mentor)said he'd take a whip into the stall and use it on any horse who presented him with the wrong end. I was mortified! He had only mares, and I tell ya, the one called "Heller" had that name for a reason! But she did respect him! SHe would always challenge him, and kept him on his toes.
I have to at least have whip in hand every so often or Gem tests me, and races into her stall. She also races out (she has to go through Tango's and across the 12' aisle to get to her stall) and she's knocked me back twice in her life time..which may be shortened if she don't shape up.
Today she trotted in, and so we are back to WHOA, STAND, ONE STEP, WHOA, STAND...anytime she moves more than allowed, she'll be backed up and have to wait longer for her grain.
In her case, it's totally an anxiety situation, she is very fearful she won't get her fair share. Yet that don't mean I won't crack her once in the while to get her attention.
Now, if Tango did that, the whip would terrify him! And Willow would need just a stern word, and she'd be at attention. Thank God Cody don't care either way...we should all have horses like him, it would be so much easier. He waits patiently to come in last, I can let him in his stall from outside, or he can come through Tangos too, and make a REEEAAALLYYY sharp turn to the right, lol!
I dunno about making feet move, sounds like you want her to wait patiently for her feed? WHOA means feet stop moving..no ifs, ands, or butts. I think making their feet move is highly overrated, and it depends on the horse, and what you are trying to accomplish probably.
I don't like any bad behavior at feeding time, now I have a question:
Cody, who I just mentioned is sooo good, loves to run and kick up his heels at feeding time. One time when putting hay out, I also had a plastic bucket..maybe I was picking rocks, or something..and he literally "kicked the bucket" lol! Which saved me a leg injury. Other than swinging a whip around like a helicopter, I don't know what to do with him. He's not being bad, he just feeling good!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 5:19 pm:
Vicki steal away no such thing as too much info when it comes to horse behavior.Whoa as mentioned is an absolute and without that one is lost IMO ! Zarr my old #1 is very atuned to little stuff if I used a whip he would faint. Whiskey on the other hand is not in the least mean but not quick to respond.Ask him to back, turn etc. and it takes a bit to work thru to actual movement.Ellie by "diva" mare learns things once and only once and she knows it for life! Right now she is in 7th heaven because Whiskey adores her and she gets away with everything now, even his carrots! Pest, MFT, is so lost she has such a worried posture and face she waits for someone anyone to tell her to move anywhere just please tell me ?? So I have only four but they are sooo different in what kind of interaction they need.So if that works best with your mare good job.
Angie as for Cody, Pest runs and farts to the sky with joy at each feeding since I know that I'm ready and its all ok it only lasts moments.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 5:23 pm:
Angie, what's the question in the last paragraph?
As far as moving the feet. If she is being a brat, I go in and move her feet, move her outside, do something in the stall--mess with the feeder, something. Then I let her back in and I go outside the stall and do my customary routine. If she doesn't approach the "feed window" with forward ears and a pretty nicker, I pass her by. And I try again on my way back down the aisle. It has never taken more than one pass by before she complies.
However, the stall antics really irritate me. It's just unnecessary as everyone is in his/her respective stall and no one is STARVING. My question is how much of the stall antics is permissible, if any?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 5:32 pm:
Cindy, are you suggesting I say/yell Whoa when Diva is being a brat in the stall at feeding time rather than say Quit It!, and then I go in and move her feet if she doesn't "Quit It"? Now that I think about it, maybe I only say Whoa in the saddle? Hmmmm. I say Quit It if someone is pawing or kicking the hay tub or in general doing something he/she is not supposed to do. Often they are doing it while standing still--as in the case of chewing or pulling something. Hmmm. Crazy horses.
They each have such unique qualities. All I have to do is raise and eyebrow at the Haffies, or wag a finger and they are terrified. A whip...oh boy. That means work.
I think of lot of it is the mare vs. gelding. I just haven't been around mares...I didn't think they were so different? But I suppose that's silly. All of them are different no matter the gender.
Glad you don't mind my hijacking.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 5:38 pm:
Oh and Cindy, there was one long stare down between Diva and myself after she had been a brat to the gelding on the other side of the stall wall and she rushed over to the gossip window and looked as if she was going to push her head through the window and make me move. I put my head up like stop and she skidded to a stop and we had a stare off. I won. She blinked first and lowered her head. Then I went into the stall and made her move. Silly witch.
Sometimes I feel like I'm back in my 8th grade classroom and she is a girl behaving as a snot!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 5:55 pm:
Vicki, I think you can safely ignore the "stall antics" as normal behavior as long as you are NOT in there. When you are in a stall with any one of the horses, the dynamic changes, you are the boss and bad behavior should not be permitted.
That all assumes that the bad behavior is mostly banging around, pinning ears and making faces. In other words, nothing so extreme that someone will get hurt. (My mare knocked over the solid oak dividing wall between two stalls a few years back when a new neighbor irritated her too much at feeding time. In this case, the BO stepped in because obviously knocking over walls can be dangerous...and expensive...I was warned that if it happened again, I'd pay for the damage...)
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 6:56 pm:
Regarding stall antics and feeding time, I have a mare that will always put her ears back when given grain unless she is the only horse for a mile around =) I tried the stern voice, waiting her out, etc, and eventually just gave up on the idea that she would ever present anything other than her witchy face at grain time. So I think some amount of that kind of behavior is acceptable.
Where I draw the line is there can be NO physical pushing each other around, or pushing me around, or rushing, or similar behavior. Anything that is dangerous is ruled out and nobody gets fed till everyone respects that and minds their manners.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 8:02 pm:
Thanks ladies. I was wondering if I was allowing poor behavior. Diva pulls her I'm tough theatrics at feeding time and I'm not in the stall. Which is all so fake as she is at the bottom of the pecking order.
There is absolutely no physical contact between the mare and the geldings at feeding time which is another reason it is so stupid. She has never ever had anyone threaten her food supply. ? The geldings are fed together and have no problem sorting out feeding time peacefully.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 8:38 pm:
Vicki yes when I use my drill sargent voice Whoa is whoa anywhere or time.Usually I holler manners and all is calm.My wee arab girl has always flattened her ears and if I had listened to all who said Don't allow that I would of made an issue where there wasn't one. There are flat ears and then there are pinned ears which have a pair of hard angry eyes right beneath that is Danger.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 - 9:07 am:
Cindy,
By chance is your Pest is a brother to Cody, lol! Love the name btw, I've considered renaming Tango in hopes his personality changed, "Pest" or "Puppy" would work!
We could have a whole discussion on just pinned ears. Willows pinned are a warning, but my voice stops it. Or they are pinned in fear which is showing up as anger...like "Don't you dare make me walk through water!"
Gem's are pinned with fear in her eyes, she's so anxious that she's fearful, but it makes her dangerous. And she has to trust people around her. I very seldom see the geldings pin their ears, and then it seems to be bluff anyhow.
Glad I am not the only one who hollers in the barn! Barn is my peaceful escape, and I cannot stand even a horse that paws. Cody will do that, and I just holler "NO" and he stops. He does still stand up on the board that holds the flooring in place, can't win 'em all I guess. Just give him his grain first and it's o.k.
I just thought of a horse from my childhood. Robin Lee was a big grey gelding, breed unknown but we thought he had some TW in him. He had been hit by a truck one time, and ended up under it. After that, his personality changed I guess; I did not know him before the accident.
All the horses were in tie in stalls, so I would put the grain in and let them in. They had to be haltered as they were eating. He scared the heck out of me, he would pin his ears, snake his head around, and I would never dare enter his stall from the rear. He never made any move to bite though, not at me anyhow. He'd bite other horses with no hesitation.
We had an uneasy truce at feeding time in the barn, and I always carried a fork when putting out hay for the herd of 14. He would charge anyone in the pasture, and there were a few times when I dove under the fence to escape him!
He was fine to ride for his owner, and I could groom him and clean his feet if he was done with his grain.
Anyhow, just thought I'd share that, and it might help someone figure out what is acceptable and is not. I don't know if he would have every gotten over his ear pinning, it was almost as if he became an evil horse for those few minutes he ate, yet I felt it was as if he couldn't help himself.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 - 10:59 am:
When I was barn manager we had one mare who had always been bottom horse and abused by owner.Her new owner tried so very hard but that poor horse could not be reached her fear and mistrust in life could not be saved.She is the only one who had no Hope.The irony her name was Hope.
Zarr the one I'm worried about was "psycho" according to the people who knew him. Instead he was a horse needing much love and understanding and Time to heal his mind. As for pest she came as Princess Misty and our vet renamed her . Unless we raise our horses one never really knows what building blocks have gone into making them what we see!
Anthem for all horse people: understanding, patiences and lots of observation.Each horse is so different and a lot of fun!
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