This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Hoof Care, Hoof Trimming, Shoeing Horses » The 4 Point or Natural Trim »
  Discussion on Hoof Critique 6 ..I 'm getting it now I think!
Author Message
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 5:45 pm:

Dr.O. it is a woman's prerogative to change their mind I don't think Hank has a toe dish.

I took some different pics in the lean-to. I think these are better. Now I just have some tweaking to do I think??. (pulling hair out icon) I hope you guys are happy I am now a hoof obsessed person!











Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 6:39 pm:

Sorry Diane,

I can still see the flare, not much of a dish though, so much better! If you look from the coronet band down about 1 1/2 inches that is where the foot has excellent attachment to the laminae, you want that attachment all the way down to the bottom and then you will really have Hanks perfect foot and a very tight white line.

They are getting there, it really just takes time. Rasp a little, bevel a little. From the looks of the last picture, you have a ways to go with shortening his toe before you get to the white line.There appears to be a lot of outer hoof wall there. You want to bevel the entire foot so the inner wall gets the weight. I do not think you have as much of a bevel as you could have which would shorten his toe even more.

Rachelle
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 6:54 pm:

Rachelle! I thought I saw a flare also in the 3rd picture...of course, I know zero. Is it a shadow? Or is the flare you see not even in the 3rd picture and I'm still hopeless?

Diane, even if there is some tweaking, his hooves are amazing since 2007.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 7:38 pm:

Look at the wavy lines on his hoof wall. That also tells you which parts of his hoof need attention.

As Rachelle says, you can bevel his toe more, and outer wall all around. I showed that on the last picture I marked up, wish it was on this part of the discussion. You could vertically rasp his toe back I am guessing 1/4 (conservative amount) of an inch, then bevel it from the bottom like I was trying to show you.

Stinks to think you are so close, and I keep harping on the "MORE BEVELING NEEDED PLEASE" huh? Revisit some of the better barefoot sites, you'll see it! I had many many mini light bulb moments, (say that fast 3 times, ha ha!)and many more times of beating my head against the wall due to not getting something that I KNEW I should "see."

Sometimes it helps to back away for a bit, then go at it with a fresh mind. Reread something you haven't looked at for awhile, study some pictures, see if that happy hoof gal is it, on Youtube, offers you anything.

And keep remembering how far you & Hank have come! "Pat, pat, pat."
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 7:51 pm:

Thanks Rachelle,So now I have to wait another hoof growth I'm about ready to give up! I tell ya pictures are hard to get the true look of the hoof. I have one more that shows his toe wall and stretched WL... I have his wall at the toe rolled and as close to the WL as I dare get at this point I think? It is level with the WL and no abducting forces at the toe wall.



Flare and what is this I wonder... I think I am about ready to turn a blind eye again!

Flare in red....what are those lines within my black lines? UGGGH



Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 8:04 pm:

I think I hate hooves again! If you look at the picture of his sole above you can see his WL has snow on it, I would take that as a sign his wall is higher in the toe area, which it appears to be in person to. That is why I don't want to do too much there... I think he is wearing it down with his pawing...my God the horse has the whole back hill dug up! Should I do something there? or leave it be??

Angie maybe you can talk Dr.O. into pages rather than parts so the pics stay together...I tried and failed
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 8:13 pm:

BTW you know what's weird is that flare coincides very closely to when he started barefoot the end of Aug. I believe. He takes close to a year to grow a new hoof. How weird is that? Only 8 mos. to go
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 9:05 pm:

Actually what you are seeing on the bottom 2/3'rds are the remnants of the bad hoof. The good hoof starts the new good growth top 1 1/2"

I am attaching the closeup picture of Hanks hoof, please bear with me this is my first attempt with paint. What I colored is what I see as extra wall/toe that can come off to the white line. Hank Closeup
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 9:48 pm:

Oh good now Rachelle is drawing Does help a person to visualize.

Rachelle I do know the hoof grows from the top, bout all I do know.

Yikes you really think I could remove that much and he would still be sound??? HMMMM I know am getting to the area that when the farrier trims him any shorter = a lame Hank horse SOOOO if I dare do this would you do it slowly? And would that not thin his hoof wall quite a bit?

Kind of scary, this will take some studying of his hoof I think.

SOOOO you think I should roll his toe in this far?

It would look better...wonder if he could walk

I would have to rasp from the top so as to not shorten the wall even further right?

Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 9:55 pm:

Boy that sounded all wrong... I know we are not going to "trim" anything off...that would be disastrous no doubt... I meant roll the toe in.(insert pulling hair out Icon)
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 10:51 pm:

Thank you Rachelle for getting into the paint, lol!!

Diane,

Back/rasp his toe TOTALLY Vertically. Where Rachelle painted in pink. He will NOT get sore. Do only half of what she shows if you want to be cautious.

THEN: Use the rasp like I showed on the other picture. At an angle to start the roll. From the bottom.

I do NOT think he will be sore. Honest. I would never suggest something if I thought it was harmful!

You are not taking off from the bottom! Now, technically, a smidgen will come off the bottom as you rasp vertically! Because you are taking off wall..does that make sense?

IF I can get my teenaged daughter to run the camera, I'll try to get some pictures to give you a "real time" idea of what we are saying. (Big IF, it is winter, and our princess is on vacation ya know...sigh)

You just need to be brave and take rasp in hand. I do understand your hesitation; I was the same way with using the knife.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Dec 27, 2009 - 10:58 pm:

Rachelle,

In this picture, would you feel comfortable rasping it back vertically as far as you are saying above? Pictures can be misleading, so thought we should double check. This is the picture I thought just rasping from the bottom at an angle to start the bevel.

Diane, same hoof all pictures?

Member:
juliem

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 12:02 am:

Diane, I can tell you're not feeling very comfortable about further rasping right now and I have to say I agree. It your ground is as hard as mine right now, I'd just wait until you feel better about this. Hank's sound and his feet really do look pretty darn good. My ground is so hard and where I have sand it's very abrasive and it doesn't take much pawing to do a pretty job of beveling! My pony drags her hind toes and she has taken the toe back past the white line. Still sound though! To my way of thinking, Hank's foot looks so good it sure won't hurt to wait a week or so. He is sound on hard ground which may just be victory enough for the time being. There is nothing so major that it has to be done NOW. I can tell you're feeling frustrated and it may be time to "just step away from the feet" for a week!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 7:03 am:

All pictures are left front, unless specified otherwise.

I understand what you guys are saying but I am not sure at this point it would be wise to do. I need to look at his hoof again.

In this pic I put a line around his toe callous, and a circle around a "blob" on his wall. I believe this is from his pawing through the snow (which is very good exercise for him!) His WL is not as stretched as in the picture Racelle and Angie painted on. His wall is even with the sole at the toe.

Julie I think you may be right, maybe Dr.O. will chime in with his opinion.


Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 8:02 am:

Diane,

I am by no means telling you this has to be done now, the drawing was my way of showing how much could be backed up.

Also, if I remember it was using the nippers and cutting his toe off that caused some of Hanks problems with soreness. You will not be doing that here.

The toe blob circled, does that correspond to the lines between the two black lines in the other picture?

Also, I think I may have an explanation for Hank's toe callous and it has to do with his toe length. I believe Hank is trying to tell you with that callous that his toe is too long.

Hank is over stimulating that part of his foot to grow because of the pawing so that's why his toe has more wall and the toe callous(more of a sole callous) is there.

The trick is to find that happy medium between too much and too little stimulation. I know it is very tough to do, especially in the winter. So you just have to do the best you can. You as his trimmer are at an advantage, since you can see the tweaks you have to make much more frequently and you do not have to do everything at once.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 8:30 am:

I agree with what Julie says above, and I hope you don't feel I am pushing you to do anything you are not comfortable with.

Something I thought of from my experiences:

There are many factors to consider with each HOOF. When I backed toe to compensate for my early learning mistakes of letting the toes creep forward, it worked wonders on everyone, except Tango.

WHY? Well, I think because he had poor hoof form before I took over, and he had "pasture" trims, no beveling, then my shaky attempts, not enough beveling, etc.

He did not have enough sole to protect his cb, in short, I had "flattened" his sole with my trimming and he could not tolerate his toe backed up so much at that point. He got sore!

Gem, who had flat feet, very thick frogs, and some(?) toe callous, responded beautifully to the vertical backing of her toes, and never got sore. In fact for the first time in her life, I see concavity now.

We need to remember where Hank is coming from, and when we look at pictures and give advice, it's easy to forget that.

Now, having said all that, I personally would not hesitate to bevel from the bottom as I suggested at the end of your part 5. Not today, no hurry!

One more thing: Lay a flat edge all around his hoof, not just at the toe. Still looks like some flares are there. Upper right corner in picture above.

We'll get there!!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 8:40 am:

I never feel I am being pushed into anything and I APPRECIATE your opinions, you all helped get Hank on the road to recovery!

As my vet says you will do what you want anyway...and he is right, I take all things into consideration

Yes still flare there Angie, it is reducing tho..slowly but surely

He walked out very sound on the hard frozen ground today, I am going to study his hoof a little further when I get home. I do know how far his toe can be backed up before he gets ouchie...way too much experience with that!

Rachelle those lines do not line up with the pawing callous...I wondered about that too, and looked.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 9:45 am:

Hi, Diane and all,

I have been following this thread although my horses do not have any hoof related problems. One can never learn enough. I am utterly amazed at your photos, Diane. How do you do it without a second person to help???

I have been tempted for a while to post photos of my horses hooves - not because they have problems (my neighbor is my farrier, they get trimmed every 8 weeks, but this time it will be 9 weeks between trims, because of the holidays). The reason I wanted to post the photos is because their feet are so different, yet they are both sound barefoot. I do have some neighbors who are trying to learn to trim the feet themselves, with advice and guidance of a natural hoof care expert (another neighbor - am I lucky or what).

I know how hard your are trying Diane - you have made tremendous progress and I believe you can take a break for a week or two.

Good luck,
Lilo
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 1:21 pm:

Lilo,

I hope you do post photos of your horses hoofs. Every hoof is different, soundness comes before beauty many times, yet it's easy to get caught up in trying to get a horses hoof to look a certain way. I would rather see pictures of hoofs from hard working horses living as natural as possible, then keep looking at the cadaver hoofs that most of us cannot achieve!

You are lucky to have help so close!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 8:48 pm:

Thanks Lilo, I usually throw Hank a leaf of hay and he holds still nicely while I take pics or even without hay he stand nice. They have been trained to hold still while I am cleaning hooves, brushing, medicating ect. without a halter. Saves me time, I don't have to halter and tie. I don't even halter Hank when I rasp on his feet.

I looked very closely at Hanks hooves tonight and my gut says I don't want to take that toe any shorter at this point..he is keeping it pretty short himself. I took some pics while I was out there to see if I could get a decent one showing what his hoof really looks like at the toe.
Which I didn't for the most part


But as I was looking at the pics I took I noticed that "discoloration" had changed. I wonder what that is? It almost looks like his hoof stays wet there or something...but it's not. I'm not so sure it is bruising as it is moving a little or changing or something! It is in both fronts at about the same spot. You can see it on his right front in this pic too. I'm not sure if he has them on the back hooves or not will have to look tomorrow.



Here is a pic from the side that shows he is squaring his hoof with his neurotic pawing, it also shows the discoloration has gotten bigger or something. I will say his hairline looks pretty good... now don't burst my bubble and find something wrong with that!



See the snow flying!! I locked him off the back hill for awhile, his toe wall is actually getting very short and soon he will be walking on his sole...then the bruising will begin



So I decided for now I am going to leave the toe alone, work slowly at the outside flare and maybe work on those bars a bit.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 7:34 am:

Hello Diane,
Considering the severe pathology you started with do to recurrent chronic founder with remarkable rotation it would be unusual to be able to completely heal the white line back to normal. Now that you have obtained a fairly normal hoof your goal is to keep it from returning to its previous state by making small adjustments. Diligence may be rewarded with continued slow improvement over the years but I would not expect to get back to a plumb normal white line.
DrO
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 8:01 am:

Diane,

I agree with Dr. O, especially with Hank's past pathologies. Even in horses that have no past problems, its very difficult to get it perfect, although we all keep trying.

But we do what we need to do, to keep our horses feet in the best shape they can possibly be in for that particular moment in time. It will always be a constant battle, but it looks to me like you are on the winning side.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 8:02 am:

Dr.O I must have been a member long enough now that you can read my mind. I have always wondered if it was possible to get his WL back to "normal". I do believe Hanks past hoof history needs to be taken into consideration while working on it. His hoof has always wanted to run forward/flare,and quickly. I hope with my tweaking between farrier visits that will stop happening. The last 2 times the farrier came his hoof "held it's shape very well" I considered that great, wonderful progress. I honestly didn't think the hoof shape he has now was attainable, that's why I am so happy...not perfect, but as Angie said if we remember where Hank has come from... It is quite remarkable IMHO. And why I stare in awe at them instead of shaking my head and looking away.

My vet at one time talked about considering putting Hank down because of his pain and rotation, and he doesn't say something like that lightly.

Dr.O. and members must remember that they are the ones that kept that from happening with their GREAT support, through Hanks diet, and multiple hoof problems.... couldn't have done it without all of you..really! I KNOW I have been a pest with this and I am sorry, but it was for Hanks good/life, and I am very grateful for everyone sticking with us. BUT I/WE are not done yet!! We will get a little better hoof!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 8:18 am:

Geez Diane, whatever will I have to type about on here if Hank's hoofs become perfect?

I suppose we can start on seeing if I can tweak all 16 of mine to perfection?

DrO, Rachelle,

I agree with the battle of keeping a white line perfectly tight, yet I do want to believe it's very possible if we keep the wall beveled, AND provide the right kind of movement on varied ground.

I hope by the middle of next summer, with the addition of some gravel to my track, to have proof of what I am saying. If I don't see improvement, I hope I remember this discussion and report that too.

Right now I am thinking how can the hoof not become "perfect" as in as good as it can be for the horse above it, as it is something that grows completely new once a year??

Of course I have no experienece with rotation like Hank suffered; so my left wired brain needs to figure this out.
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 12:15 pm:

Diane, just wondering, if the discoloration is a bruise dons't it make sense that it would travel down as the hoof grows?

Maybe it has changed to quickly for that.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 6:50 pm:

Angie a noble thought but the problem is that there is degenerative pathology that is not reversible with the chronic injury of laminar tearing. This can sometimes be seen radiographically as the fibrosis of the laminea becomes calcified. But I always make it a rule to never believe it is as good as it can get and we will see how far this goes.
DrO
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 7:57 pm:

DrO,

Ah, a Scientific answer, and it makes sense to me, kinda. I knew I should have quit dozing off during that part of Ramey's DVDs!

Zzzzz...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 8:34 pm:

I don't know Lori it appears to have gotten bigger and has gone HIGHER up his hoof wall, so don't think gravity/growth is at work with it. He does have them on his back hooves too at about the same spot, so going barefoot theory is out! I'm trying to think if anything changed in their diet/environment at that time...but am drawing a blank.

Angie I am not done with Hanks hoof I see at least a part 10 with me trimming him...before I get everything straight!

If anyone can get Hank to a "perfect hoof" HA can! But Gawd what a long haul
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 11:00 pm:

Just checking... Since I was able to kneel and get a little closer shot of Hanks hoof, (I have been cropping them out since my knee was injured..it is all better now!, do you still think there is a flare in the toe??? The many colors of his hoof makes things distorted and I'm not so sure I see it in this pic. This pic is NOT cropped..wonder if cropping distorts things??? His hoof always looks better in the ones that aren't cropped.

Thanks

Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 9:07 am:

DrO needs to set up books with chapters for you,lol!

I still see flare based on the lines running horizontally are tighter at the top of his hoof compared to the bottom. He's growing in a better hoof, and I don't think he needs drastic backing up but just keep beveling that toe.

'Nways, that's as far as my knowledge goes at this time, ha ha! By the end of this, I'll know far more about Hanks hoofs than my horses hoofs!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 30, 2009 - 10:19 am:

Diane - cropping may distort photos, I have found. Don't know if it happened in your case. Wish I could train my horses to hold their feet up for me while munching hay so I could take photos - will have to work on that.

Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 - 6:50 pm:

I noticed tonight all 3 horses have that discoloration in all 4 hooves in the same spot as Hank.. Still wonder what caused that, kind of strange.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 - 9:09 pm:

Diane,
Could it coincide with the clover kill-off where they might have ingested some of whatever you used to kill it off?
Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 8:25 am:

Rachelle I don't think so it seems too high in the hoof growth, the clover was killed about 6 mos. ago.

The mare was mostly in the back yard at the time because of her bowed tendon and wasn't exposed to it much. Knowing their hoof growth rates I would guess it was something within the last 2-3 mos.

Maybe it is just normal
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 2:24 pm:

Continued... I promise to not go past part 10

https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/351127.html
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC