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| Discussion on Hoof Critique 7... well let's see how I did?? | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 2:22 pm: Continuation of https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/351058.htmlOk I think I have re-grouped  I did get a little more aggressive today, and took that toe wall back a little from the top. Worked on that outside flare and beveled Angie! The thing sticking up is his "callous" in all the shots. Since he is not pawing 24/7 I think his hooves are looking a little better... he has started tippy toeing a little bit on the very irregular hard stuff...but nothing concerning. No bruising is apparent at this time. No quarters breaking out which is usually inevitable about 2 weeks after the farrier trims him...so progress is being made. I think in his M/L shot it shows I am just about rid of that outside flare.  Aren't I?? I couldn't get a good A/P shot because of the bedding. None of these shots are cropped. Am I getting the idea??     
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 2:34 pm: Oh and Rachelle I have been paying attention to that frog that pointed left...I think it is almost straight now . 
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 3:18 pm: Rachelle his callous is in front of the WL then there is a little space of sole then his WL. Hard to get a good pic of what it actually looks like. The "blob" he was forming from pawing is gone . The heel is still a bit of a mystery to me  I have been taking a little off his bars weekly, and slowly lowering the heels Everything is getting done in small increments He was not sore after I rasped his toe, and walked out to get a drink on the hard ground with nary a flinch Here is how his hoof is laid out.. Black line is callous behind the blackline there is a bit of sole then the red lines are his WL. I still don't quite know how to bring his heel back? 
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 4:19 pm: That callous is a strange thing...it starts on his wall about 1/4 way from the back of the hoof, cuts over across the front of his sole and attaches back up to his wall on the other side...wonder what the purpose or cause of this is. The funny thing is as I was outlining it it is almost as his hoof SHOULD be maybe he is trying to draw me a line to follow. It really does skew the pictures a bit. The red line is where the "callous" runs 
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 7:29 pm: Diane,Pretty soon I'll have as many pictures of Hanks hoofs saved on my computer as I have of my horses, lol! Here's some markups to think about, leave things alone for now as Rachelle suggests, and do some more studying online until it's crystal clear. He's fine NOW, wait 2 weeks and re-check. My understanding regarding bringing the heel point back is lay your rasp straight and flat, parallel to the collateral grooves, and the frog, which should be the same, and pull it in the direction the arrows show. You can take one swipe and make a big difference, especially if the heel and quarters are higher than they should be. You don't tilt the rasp down towards his bulbs, been there, done that, had sore horse. It's a flat pulling the rasp back movement; at least that's how I do it. My heel points were always more at the quarters; so this is what worked for me to correct them. REMEMBER, you have to look at the WHOLE horse, his leg from the side, pastern angles, shoulder angle, and DO NOT just think "move heel point back" without understanding the whole hoof. This was extremely difficult for me to understand, and don't just go off and do this unless you are 100% sure it needs doing! You have to address the bars and understand them also, or your heel point won't stay back. The other thing, which I think Rachelle is explaining/questioning, is at the toe, you can take the rasp and rasp at an angle where your red lines are, and I added my purple lines. I think(?) DrO calls that rockering the toe maybe? A question for you: If you measure Hank's heel, from the ground to the hair line, what is that measurement? That is one measurement I do take. Vertical heel height. The green line looks like a high spot on the pictures. I really believe that once you figure out what to do at that toe, you will see some positive changes. Of course I've never dealt with a foundered horse, and as DrO pointed out to me, some things may not be possible, or whatever it was he said. Chapter 10 is the "Ta Da, we did it" chapter, right?  I MUST REPEAT: STUDY THE HEEL POINT, TOE BEVELING MORE BEFORE ATTEMPTING. I don't want Hank getting sore heels if I am reading the pictures wrong, and giving chicken bone rattling advice! There is a reason why there is not a "HOOFadvice.com!" 
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 8:54 pm: Thanks Angie, Your green line is part of that "callus" it is higher than his hoof wall. Where your green line ends is almost exactly where it starts... I would love to cut that thing off...but know better, it doesn't get touched, His hoof must think it needs it for some reason. As for the purple arrows showing how to rasp...that IS what I did, see you guys are getting through my hard head I took 2 light swipes, just a few shavings came off. I think weekend touch ups are fine at this point. I am making changes VERY slowly at this point and when I think I am getting close to too much I will stop for awhile. The rocker toe makes sense and I am debating doing it once I study a little more. His WL is really starting to tighten up..comparatively speaking. The flares on the sides are looking sooo much better. Can the WL go back to normal after a remarkable founder, followed by chronically foundering afterwards?? I think it can get real close as I am watching Hanks change. Other things will come into play other than his hooves tho, and probably even more important IMHO... Keeping his diet fairly tight, no more laminitis, keeping his weight in check, and keeping him active... a tall order with this guy, especially in this weather but I am going to give it my best shot. Cuz' I most certainly don't want to start all over AGAIN! Dr.O. what is your opinion of this "callus" I marked up another picture so you have an idea what it looks like, you can't really tell no matter how good my pics are or from any angle. This one shows it best. Black lines are where it starts and ends Red lines are sole between the Callus and the WL Blue lines is the WL 
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 10:54 am: LOL Rachelle, I was reading through some articles yesterday and found one that seemed to make very good sense as far as the stretched WL. I wish I would have book marked it. It was either Pete R OR Ric Redding article I think.It said basically what Dr.O. has said... rasping into the stretched WL at the toe,kind of a squaring of the toe at 11 to 1 O'clock, then leave the toe pillars at 10 and 2 O'clock will help eliminate the stretched WL with the toe pillars protecting it. Make sense?? I'll see if I can find that article
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 11:16 am: Well it was neither one of those guys, I read way too much about hooves yesterday. However I did find the article I was talking about, I will not take his toe back that much that quickly...this is what I am trying to KIND of achieve slowly, but surely. The ground is SOOO hard now I am not going to do anything drastic.. but this does explain it well. https://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/toe-rocker.html |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 2:47 pm: TOO bad Christmas is over, I was studying hooves and such some more and stumbled on this...the video does show how to bevel, I like it...going on my wish list. Watch out Hank... he may have a perfect hoof yet https://www.hoofrasp.com/ |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 3:40 pm: Most excellent article! Toe pillars is a new term for me. I understand what is being said though. If you understand that, by gosh, by darn, you've got it!!That hoof rasp is interesting, I may get that when I next need to order new ones. Not too expensive, except I am guessing it's not a coated rasp. I never hold a hoof between my knees, so using 2 hands isn't a problem for me, but that dang rasp is pretty long! Seems a waste to have it so long. There was about 2 seconds in that video that showed the toe bevel being done that I've been trying to explain. Phew, now I don't feel obligated to get a picture for you! The windchill factor today hasn't been past 2 above, so I am busy baking and in no hurry to go out for anything, for sure not taking pictures.
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 3:47 pm: OK I couldn't resist. I went out and did some more tweaking on Hanks hoof...Just the LF, figured if I lamed the poor guy he would have one good front one Will do RF tomorrow. My pictures turned out worse than normal except 2. Hank slept through the whole thing and was still sleeping when I left. SOOO any way I tried my hand at rockering the toe a little and beveling a little better, followed by smoothing out with the RR. I think I like the way they look now much better. Hopefully when I feed supper he will still be able to walk on his LF... he can always get locked up with Sam I guess. Be Gentle, I wish my other pics would have turned out.   Rachelle I think I got rid of most of the stuff you colored out in my last post! Seems the right thing to do, I believe I left the "toe pillars in tact and he shouldn't be sore.. I bet he's not! 
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 4:08 pm: This is a really bad picture, dirt and lighting wise, but it does show how I rolled his toe, beveled. The heel looks better already I think and his hoof looks much more compact (not as long).Angie the bars are next on my list of learning... They aren't as horrible as they look in this pic. 
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| Member: rtrotter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 4:28 pm: Diane,Absolutely Beautiful! Brings tears to my eyes  And yes, you have to deal with the bars. My hoof research last night( Happy Hoof gal) explained that the reason the the hoof flares when the bars aren't addressed is because the the sole does not stop growing under the bars,it also can not exfoliate properly and it has to go somewhere. It then pushes up until it hits bone and then goes to the path of least resistance which is pushing the wall outward to form the flares. By keeping the bars trimmed properly, the sole can grow and exfoliate properly reducing the flares and keeping the horses foot more compact and growing the right way. Do I actually see concavity in Hank's feet! Beautiful Rachelle |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 5:30 pm: Thank you Rachelle! I had to really study this last couple weekends to get a grasp of what to do, I didn't want to make him worse. Actually those 2 links I provided up above really made it click. I couldn't figure out how to roll/rocker that toe without making him sore and sole bearing. The toe Pillars brought it all together. AND now I know that has been my farriers problem.. he does not leave the toe pillars he goes beyond 11 and 1 O'clock! That is why Hank gets sore he ends up on his sole with no support! What an AH_HA moment I think we do see a little concavity... he trotted out on the hard ground tonight...no damage done Tomorrow is bar day studying Hopefully I will find something that makes me go AH-HA with them. I don't have a hoof knife, but I guess that will be my next purchase Hope you and Angie sleep better knowing I am finally getting it  I know I will!
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 7:24 pm: I like the idea of toenail clippers or sand paper. I have been studying a little more, 30 below windchills all weekend... makes me stay indoors pretty much..I could clean..but this is much more educational! I only Have 3 more parts to get this all together! With pics that could be hard . After all this reading today, and finally comprehending what I'm reading I think I should rocker Hanks toe even further into the stretched part of the WL. As long as I leave those "toe pillars" in place I think it will be fine. . I could tell tonight when I fed his breakover was better...especially since I didn't do the RF. There was quite a difference between the 2. NOW the dreaded bars Rachelle I think I am going to lightly sand them, but what do you and Angie think of this statement...It does make sense and Hank does have that outline around his frog if you look at the last pic I posted. I am tempted to see if Hank can't fix his own bars mostly. Looking now at the entire bar: -- If the bar is somewhat long so that there is a thin dirt line between bar and sole, trim back the bar, starting along the outer edge, until there is no more dirt line. -- Once you have trimmed the bars back to their normal height at the level of the sole, you may not have to trim them very often. Horses that live outdoors or get plenty of movement will wear the bars to a nice sharp edge which gives traction on soft ground. After the "first barefoot trim" you should rarely need to trim the bars. -- If you are doing a "first trim" after the horse has been shod or neglected, and the bars have overgrown a lot to make a layer across the sole, there are two possible things to do. 1) (The "obvious" method) Use your hoof knife to shave off the farthest edge of the bar, a little at a time, until it is no longer laying on top of the sole. Do your best not to cut any sole as you trim back the bar. Stop when there is no more dirt line between the bar and the sole. The difficulty with trimming this way is that often the bars have overgrown "on purpose" to protect a sole that has been trimmed and is too thin. If so, you will find that the bars "overgrow" again very quickly to protect the sole. The horse may be quite sore after the trim and need temporary pads for a few days, and should wear hoof boots for trail riding. 2) (The "less-obvious" but probably better method) Leave the overgrown bars as they are -- the only trimming you will do at the first trim is to remove wall flares, level and possibly shorten the heels, and apply a mustang roll. If the bars have overgrown to help protect a thin sole, they will flake away by themselves as soon as the sole has grown thick enough. Pete Ramey reports that this takes about a month, and that horses are not sole-sore in the meantime. On a hoof with too little concavity or a thin sole, there is often a ridge of raised sole that looks like a continuation of the bars, beside or extending around the front of the frog. Do not trim this away -- the hoof needs it for support. Later, when the foot gains concavity, it will go away by itself. Curved bars (due to contracted or underslung heels) can NOT be straightened by over-shortening the bars or making an "opening cut" in the heels. They will straighten as the foot re-shapes when you back up the forward-flared toe. |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 10:03 pm: Diane,I love that first picture! I can see the light bulb that went off in your brain shining way over here, lol!! Just beautiful! (Actually, someone is shooting off fireworks across the river, I think in celebration, hahaha!) I am too tired to think bars right now, the paragraph Rachelle has above is a very good explanation. I never could figure out bars until I watched the Youtube video from the Happy Hoof Gal. It's the one she uses clay to explain them I think. BTW, I made 3 dozen pasties today for my house bound activity, and this is much more interesting! Pasties are like pot pies, the miners ate them many years ago. I'd much rather do hoofs than roll out dough! Look my way, that's not snow, it's flour, lol! Yup, I can sleep now.
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 12:06 pm: Angie Hank is moving GREAT landing slightly heel first... I worked on the bars a little, and rockered that toe a little more..Did the rest of them too.OH my I found something connected to the blob I was talking about earlier. I hate to do it, but I am going to start on part 8 so you can type... and I can show you pics of the blob and his bars.
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