HorseAdvice.com Equine & Horse Advice: Hoof Critique 8... Look what is connected to the blob

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HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Hoof Care, Hoof Trimming, Shoeing Horses » The 4 Point or Natural Trim »

	Discussion on Hoof Critique 8... Look what is connected to the blob
Author	Message
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 2:47 pm: This blob is going to waste one of my parts I have left BUT could be a problem and not sure how to handle it. If you look at any of the pics I post of Hanks hooves...even going WAYYY back he has had a little crack at his toe, I have never thought much of it because it basically has always stayed the same. Today I decided I could still get rid of some more of that diseased WL and started "rockering" a bit more at his toe, A big black spot exposed itself and I beleive it is somehow connected to that "blob" I think he has had that blob for a long time too, but never could figure out what it was. SOOOO What is this... I sure hope it isn't WL disease, and what should I do to it and the blob??? I noticed now that I rasped into it the crack on the front of his hoof wall got longer I dumped thrushbuster on it. The red semi-circle is where the blob is located..the back spot is shaped like a cross...wonder if I could sell his hoof on E-Bay LOL This is the underside with the blob and the crack outlined. This shows the crack grew since I broke into the diseased whatever it is This shows his hoof was getting pretty and I got the bars lower than the wall.. now the blob is going to throw a wrench in my pretty hoof plan I think!
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 2:54 pm: Here are a little closer shots of the blob and the crack And my pretty rocker gone bad
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 5:44 pm: Diane, I still think you are ok. It still looks like you have some room to work with before you hit hit the point of no return, but I also think you have to work back some of the pointy toe by rasping on the sharp edge ( at least it looks sharp to me). . It almost looks like you should notch it which I am not sure you have the tools for you might be able to do it with your rasp. Also, in the 2nd picture you posted, it sure looks like the ridge is trying to act like hoof wall in an attempt to protect the blob. It also appears to be a defect ( from an old injury or his pawing) which may or may not be coming from coronet band down to toe. See lines on picture. If it is a defect, I am not sure you will be able to completely get rid of it, but I would try and destress that crack as much as I could, just not sure if you should do it now with everything else you've done and it may eventually fix itself with Hank's shorter and shorter toes. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 10:18 pm: Rachelle I think that is the picture, the toe isn't pointy it is smooth and rounded. You can see that if you look at the very first picture in this post. I think that black defect needs to come out of there. I hope the further I go into the stretched WL more doesn't pop up...but I have a feeling the whole toe is loaded with it. Which would explain alot! I guess the good news is it is something that needs to be cleaned up, I am not sure I have the skill to do that. I think his whole toe is probably loaded with seedy toe, and I have just scratched the surface. My next rasping I am going to go a little further off to the side and a little deeper on the defect and see what I have there. When I have the vet for Sam I will have him take a look at it too. I think we may be finally getting to the bottom of his many problems...and that's good I'm glad you all have talked me through this... we are at the verge of a good hoof I think. As long as this isn't white line disease... not up to resections yet
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 7:23 am: Diane, I think I would put a vee in between Rachelle's pink lines. I would just use the edge of my rasp, it wouldn't take much. Cody had something similar going on for awhile, and that is how I handled his. Plus your beveling will help correct it I believe. Always something huh?
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 7:35 am: Angie the crack doesn't really concern me at this point...what's causing it does! That black that I rasped into goes much deeper I think. I don't know for sure if it is just limited to that spot and connected somehow to the blob... OR his whole toe is loaded with it. I think the black hole has got to be cleaned out, along with any other diseased stuff I may find..Dr.O.??? The question is how? I went to a farm store yesterday and had a hoof knife in my hand to buy, then decided not too Guess I may have to learn how to run one without causing any damage. I will ask the vet today if he comes out. Of course he doesn't believe WLD exisits for some reason... sigh
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 7:39 am: Diane, the image that shows best what is going on is the second photo in post 5650. I believe it is "a dimple" in the sole created by a distortion in the white line which would correspond to some long term change to the underlying "live" foot structure: probably scarring in the sensitive laminae. The wall cracks in front of this dimple because the underlying laminae has a poor hold on it. You see such white line distortions in horses with long standing chronic laminitis. With your improved trimming and hoof conformation you may find over time this area will remodel. In the mean time your chore is to keep thrush out of this crack to keep it from further weakening the wall. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 7:50 am: OH good, thanks Dr.O. keeping thrush out is a much easier chore than doing a resection Should the "blob" be left undisturbed and hope it remodels itself? It does look like a piece of sole that doesn't belong there, thanks for the explanation. Looking back through my pics the blob has been there at least for 2 years.
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 8:03 am: Angie, My notch and your V are saying the same thing, however, although I am not fond of power tools around horses, I think I would use a dremel and make a horizontal cut right above the top of the crack, no more than 1/4 of an inch and not very deep. This may prevent the outer wall from cracking any more as the bottom part gets worked on. I think we are still in the insensitive laminae of the white line. Then I'd work with the rasp to try and clean it up and see what exactly is going on. The foot may look funny for a while because of the notch and depending on how far up it goes how much of this will fix itself over time and with constant tweaking. Rachelle
Member: maggienm	Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 1:35 pm: I am not sure if what I have seen is the same as you have Diane. It sounds the same but who knows. I had a mare whose feet had been sadly neglected, she had contracted heels. When trimming her I noticed a small black crack at her toe. I used the edge of the rasp and filed until I got rid of the crack. It got a bit scary because it went higher and deeper than anything I had done before. I kept stopping and poking in the slot with the hoof pick to see if there was any sensitivity. There wasn't so I would do some more. She was never lame on the foot, in fact after her second trim she walked sounder than she had been. I attribute that to taking some of the dead sole build up off. Some time later I did the same thing to a different horse, only it wasn't quite as deep. In both cases the hoof grew out normally and the crack didn't come back. Maybe I was just lucky, I am learning as I go also.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 5:21 pm: Good luck with this, Diane
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 9:05 am: I want to report a little good news anyway, Hank is handling the hard jagged ground like it isn't even there!!!! (all of us with foundering horses...including me! must remember Hank had a pretty significant founder) plus he was a chronic founder. Unfortunately I haven't had the want to work on Hanks hooves since Sam got sick. I did take a peek at them yesterday and they still look pretty good, the hard ground must be helping to trim them... his blob seems different, the crack hasn't grown any. I put thrushbuster on it a couple times a week. Amazingly his quarters are not cracking out as usual, so the flares must be under control a little anyway! I need to examine them a little closer I just glanced at them the other day... don't want him to start getting ugly hooves again! I did buy a hoof knife
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 12:27 pm: Hanks hoof does seem to be holding it's own, his bars do seem to be straightenening out.. I haven't did anything with then. There does appear to be a little bruising on his sole on the right of the picture.. but very light. I did bevel them again (and almost got killed when the snow slid off the roof) His toe callous his huge again. I did rasp a little more closer to the blob and it is like dead stuff there... not thrush, just old congestion or something. I need to get the right side of his toe back more even with the rest, but everything seems to be going well, it appears he has more hoof behind the widest part of the hoof? and his heels have come back a little.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 1:46 pm: The first pictures it looks like a lot of wall can come off yet, but the last one seems better. I did Tango's yesterday, but no pictures. His seem similar to Hanks, and I was more aggressive in that I took the rasp level at the toe, and beveled more then at the toe. By level, I mean side ways from 2 to 10 o'clock, then beveled. If you can feel flare at the toe, then I would rasp vertically some more. I just emailed my hoof guru, these darn discussions leave me with more questions than answers sometimes, lol! I asked if she had time to look at new pictures if I can get some in the next few weeks. I need an update if I am on track with everyone. If I way off base on anyone, I'll post it on here, with corrections, and see if it's helps you & Hank or anyone else.
Member: maggienm	Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 2:16 pm: thanks for the update
Member: vickiann	Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 6:00 pm: Good for you with your perseverance, Diane.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 6:05 pm: Angie his wall is probably a little higher than it should be, but I really wonder if it would be wise to take it down any further at this point. Some of the ground he is on is a frozen jagged mess. I think maybe leaving a little extra wall at this point for a little protection might be a good idea??? I circled in red the spot I think I need to do something to, as you can see from the pic I must be taking more off the left side (in the pic) and his WL is much smaller with less flare. The black circle shows some mild bruising, and I don't want it to get any worse! So wouldn't leaving the wall a tiny bit long be a good idea? That flare is obvious in this pic too, you can see the crack is actually getting a little smaller. That weird discoloration remains.
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 7:09 pm: Diane, IMHO I think the high wall on the outside is whats causing the bruising on the other side. Hank is apparently not wearing his feet evenly. I can tell because the frog is starting to lay over again where it was starting to straighten up in the pictures from a week or so ago. On a good note it looks like his heel point is almost back even with the other one. I don't know if you are using one but if you can get a heavy duty wire brush, I think you'll see that you have quite a bit of wall that can come off and you will be able to see his white line better. I also think the blob is not quite as pronounced as it was. Rachelle
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 7:56 pm: Diane, I wouldn't be afraid to have wall and sole flush and LEVEL at his toe at this point. It looks close to that in picture 3 from today. I took a gamble on Tango yesterday and did just that, he is NOT sore today, I was wondering if he would be o.k. In fact a teeny bit of the sole came off as I rasped, but I am trying to tighten the white line just as you are. I stopped as soon as I touched sole, and beveled. Remember any flare is like a finger nail pulling away, and that is painful. If he has flares at quarters, it could be bar pressure, or just a too long wall. I would take my knife and from where your red oblong circle ends, I would consider "scooping" that out and see what happens. If he stands on a flat surface, is there a natural arch at his quarters right now when viewed from the side at ground level? I am always hesitate myself how much to do with that, it really is just a sliver above ground level. As long as he's looking better and moving better, slow but sure is the way to go. I feel like I've been doing maintenance trims for the last 6 months, but in 6 months, changes can creep up that need addressing. I think it's a fine line between being confident, and overly critical when trying to figure out what to do. You're doing great and his hoofs are looking better all the time. If only every hoof was the same, ha ha!
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 8:36 pm: Thanks, I have to get back in the groove with his hooves.. need practice for Sam's if he ever gets better Rachelle, when I looked at the pictures and saw his frog pointing again I immediately thought of you What you said about the high wall on the one side causing the bruising does make sense in my congested brain. Angie I am going to work on that in increments, slow but sure is the way to approach Hanks hooves right now I think. This ground always gets him sooner or later, if we make it through this winter without any soreness it will be a Hank hoof miracle! Thanks for your help
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 8:50 pm: OH BTW I forgot to ask, since that toe callous is now higher than the wall, doesn't that say maybe I shouldn't take anymore off??? You can see by how dirty and pronounced it is that it is almost actually acting as his wall. Wonder if that means it will hold up if I remove anymore wall and protect... or I'm playing with fire and he is building this for a reason. It has gotten quite a bit "taller" since my first pics above at the beginning of this post. I don't want to touch the thing... but it does make things a little harder!! He doesn't get these callouses in the summer or if he does they aren't noticeable.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 7:16 am: Diane, If the toe callous is higher than the wall, I think I would just put a sharper bevel on the wall itself. I seem to remember seeing some place that the bevel can start at the end of the "callous" does that makes sense? Bevel into the flare I think it said. Only at the toe would I do that because he should have weight on the toe; remember weight on the heel, then the toe/sole, followed by the "arches" (quarters) which touch last with weight pressing down as the hoof is on the ground. I've got the cold my daughter was suffering through, so forgive me I don't make sense, can't breath so my brain is oxygen deprived!
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 7:28 am: Makes sense... I'm just a scaredy cat since he is doing so well!
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 7:30 am: Tried to show how much bevel I would do at the toe, and where I'd start it. He seems to have a lot of thick wall yet at the toe from flare growing out? Ignore the red splotches. I would angle my rasp down like the red line next to the erased line. And take some of the toe off rasping vertically too. As long as the callous is there, AND laying the rasp across at the apex of the frog shows daylight, I think you can be more aggressive. It's what has worked for me, but all factors must be there. I think the concavity factor is very important here in deciding how much to do. Just my experience thus far.
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 7:42 am: Thanks Angie. I guess the good news is that is what I thought needed done, and have been doing slowly... since I have been doctoring Sam and ignoring Hank I haven't been doing anything. I guess it's time to start getting his hoof back in order.. there is another weird thing on his sole... Don't want to post another pic, but if you look above between the red circle and the black circle pictured above, there is a black spot on his sole... it's been there awhile... you can see it in many of my pics... I thought it was some sort of abscess or thrush... it isn't, it is part of his WL stuck to his sole, how weird is that??? What the heck is it doing there I wonder??
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 8:48 am: I see what you are talking about. Gem has an actual hole in her sole, and I've just been cutting out the junk, and watching it fill back in. Hanks don't look as deep as hers though. I don't know what else to do except say to cut out the black stuff, or maybe just keep cleaning it really well. It should fill back in, hers is. While I was driving back home from school (you'll see I post around 7ish, then again after 8:30, I drive our daughter to school, come back, feed horses and sometimes have light bulb moments during the drive, lol!)I thought I should add that when I did the beveling more aggressively with Tango he got sore. He had at that time the "weird" toe callous like Hank had...I couldn't decide if it was callous or what. I went into the white line to start the bevel. BUT: He did not have any concavity at that time, my trimming had left his toe go forward, and heels, and his hoof had lost concavity. Doing the same thing now; he's not sore. He has more toe callous, more concavity. It's kind of a catch 22 I guess. Have to bevel to get the concavity, (and have lots of movement) yet too much beveling too soon causes soreness and you won't get concavity. I tried followed something I printed out where they rasped vertically WAAAAYYY back, and it looked like no wall left at the toe. Uh huh...I would never do that again. Not enough sole thickness when I tried that. Now I understand more about checking collaterol groove depth, and concavity, and I still am cautious. Which I know you are too. The most frustrating thing about trimming, IMHO, is there are so many "it depends"!! You can't take any advice without looking at it from 10 different angles! For example Hank foundered in the past, none of mine have, so it probably makes a huge difference on what you do, and when, and how aggressive. Yet if you don't do enough, it's like idling in place. How did I make that hair pulling thingy?! #>:-)
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 11:02 am: I know this sounds crazy but that black dot with a bit of a string is part of his WL not kidding.. it's very weird.. I haven't touched it because I can't quite figure out why it is there! It's like his WL has taken a detour
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 8:57 am: OH OH Glad I didn't do anything to Hanks hoof other than bevel or would have to blame myself.. he is starting to tippy toe on the hard ground a little. Now I know I am not going to touch his wall until this ground gets a little softer...which should be soon.. Thankfully! We have an ice storm predicted for tomorrow so he will be locked in... then rain and flooding for the weekend.. oh joy... but at least hopefully it will get rid of this frozen jagged mess... just in the nick of time.
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 7:02 pm: Hank was not tippy toeing at all this afternoon, he must have been on extremely irregular ground or something slippery this morning, he looked very sound this afternoon with no tippy toeing, or pulses shewww good boy!
Member: mrose	Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 10:49 pm: Some good news!
Member: vickiann	Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 8:28 pm: Glad the tippy toeing didn't continue!
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 8:32 pm: I was looking to see if Ramey was doing clinics yet when I found this, Joe Camps website. The "note from Joe" paragragh. https://www.thesoulofahorse.com/Ramey1Release.htm
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 9:06 pm: Such a balancing act. Hank definitely needs his wall lowered more, no doubt. They are wearing down a little with the hard ground.. so right now I am leaving well enough alone as far as the wall goes.. that toe is going to get a little work this weekend.. and I am going to bevel him! I am taking the very slow method tho...especially with this winter ground. Sam stalls pretty well... Hank would be a basket case like his mother was with her bowed tendon. I've been studying tonight Angie If you think Hanks hooves are a mess you would faint if you saw Sams
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 8:43 am: Angie, Truer word were never spoken and its what I have subscribed to since I became a barefoot, nailless fanatic. I am sure my horses would develop the feet they need to race if they had an environment where they would come in contact with stonedust at times other than when they are on the track, but unfortunately, since I board them, this can not happen. So, as they say I am a victim of circumstance, and I think that's what most of us are. We know in our hearts what is best for our horses, but we have to make sacrifices to suit those circumstances. That's why I have been so proactive with finding solutions that would work for my horses as well as others. I believe I have the solution, but its going to take some time to see if it works( No, not with Perfect HoofWear, although that did work). My race mare is going to be testing the prototype when she starts back in another few weeks, I'll go from there. Now, if we can all remember, environment makes the horse. All will be well. Rachelle
Member: juliem	Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 1:53 pm: Thanks for that link Angie--can you imagine Bowker and Ramey at the same clinic?? Anyway, somewhere on that site I read the best description of periferal loading and exactly what that means for a horse with shoes on--everyone who thinks their horse must have shoes because that's just what's always been done shoe read this.
Member: maggienm	Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 9:16 pm: Rachelle, did I miss what your prototype is or is it still underwraps? Sounds interesting. Keep us posted.
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 9:40 pm: Oh-OH I need to revisit the blob. Dr.O. or anyone I broke into the blob again and now he has a bigger crack going up his wall...the blob is related to this crack. Should a person not mess with the blob OR get more aggressive about getting rid of it??? OR ignore it and see what happens...tho the crack isn't thrilling me much now! The blob is black "woodish" consistency... NOT thrush...it just seems like dead tissue. It is not infection. Dr.O. you called it scarring in the lamanaie I believe, and that does seem to describe it well.
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Friday, Feb 12, 2010 - 5:32 pm: If it is worsening Diane, I would not ignore it. I would consider unloading it and cleaning it up like you see the cracks treated in the Redden video you posted. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Feb 12, 2010 - 6:51 pm: Thanks Dr.O. I'm wondering more about the "blob" if I keep rasping his toe back I get more into the blob...which in turn seems to make the crack worse. I do have the crack unloaded... would this scar tissue run all the way up to the coronary band? I don't know if I should leave the "blob" alone or keep working at it?
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 10:48 pm: Guess what the "blob" has a name hyper-keratinized horn... HKH and it doesn't sound too pleasant. I don't quite understand it 100% but the definition sure defines the "blob" almost perfectly. Dr.O. could you tell me what this sentence means? In all cases observed, the distal border of the coffin bone and its corium modeled to accommodate the excess horn https://www.appliedequinepodiatry.org/Text_Files/HK_Horn_article.pdf
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 10:57 pm: Dr.O. also would field X-rays show this or would one need digitals? Thanks
Member: gramsey1	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 7:43 am: I have our horses trimmed using AEP methods. But, don't you think the X-ray is unnecessary? The recommended course of treatment is good trimming.
Member: frances	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 8:44 am: Very interesting Diane. As the owner of a horse which has had many cases of "seedy toe" over the years (farrier says that she is a horse with a notched coffin bone and is likely to always be susceptible to such infections) and which is currently coming to the end (I hope) of rehab for WLD, I too will be interested to read DrO's comments on this. Thanks for sharing!
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:31 am: LL that is interesting too, do you know if your horse had a "blob" like Hank? This thing of Hanks looks like seedy toe OR WLD, but with that extra piece of horn there.. very visible in the pics above it would make sense this is a HKH. It sounds as if it is very hard to get rid of, if possible at all, and can be degenerative. Hanks is weird in that it seems to make his WL take detours and right at the "blob" the WL will not go back to normal YET anyway, I am seeing small improvement. I can't believe the farrier has never got into this "blob" and associated seedy toe hole. Guy the article says that x-rays is the way to determine if you have an HKH. I am sure the x-rays I would get would probably be bad tho and from the description of it I'm pretty sure that's what it is anyway (glad it has a name anyway)! I just wondered if a "notched coffin bone" would show on an x-ray and what view would catch one. When I rode Hank the last time in the arena on the circle he felt a little off (barely noticeable)going left. I did get off and lunge him to see if I could see anything, his lumpy fetlock is on the left too and suspected that maybe. On the straight line he was fine and going right. His hooves have been "behaving" well no Dp's, going well on hard ground... tho we don't go far on it. I am going to take the hoof testers to the HKH today and see if I get a reaction... interesting indeed, but a little disheartening that it can produce "subtle" lameness and possibly be degenerative in nature. I am going to up my efforts to get rid of this if possible
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:58 am: Oh OH I am wrong his lumpy fetlock is on the right (someday I will figure out my left from my right)...HMMMM. When Hank gets done with breakfast I am going to try the hoof testers... if I can find them! He was fine going right....VERY VERY subtly off on the circle left. MAYBE I will finally get to the bottom of this
Member: vickiann	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 11:04 am: Thanks, Diane, I've just forwarded this to my farrier (he studied under K.C. LaPierre for quite a long while). Two of mine have had this black hole condition and I too have have seen the "blob" effect. It will be interesting to see if it goes away or persists with trims.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 1:49 pm: Absolutely no reaction to hoof testers in any of the four, but I wonder if the HKH would react to hoof testers now. How would it bring on subtle lameness??? I am going to ride Hank this afternoon in the arena, maybe it was just my imagination the other day
Member: vickiann	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 3:29 pm: Good news, Diane. Hope the ride goes well!
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 4:38 pm: I had an awesome ride on the fat horned one, I didn't feel or see anything today going either way That had been the first time I rode him much in the arena and asked for nice circles, maybe he was just a bit unbalanced (we do have that problem on circles). I took him out in the pasture and the fields then down the road CLIP CLOP... didn't miss a beat and was VERY good!!! This morning I worked a bit more on his hooves, he is still flared to the outside on the LF. I also rasped more into the blob. The outside hoofwall around it is very flaky. I took quite a bit off and unloaded it again, must have worked cuz' he felt sounder than he has in AGES. I hope I can get the "blob" to go away or at the very least keep it under control. It would be just my luck to have no horse to ride AGAIN because of hoof problems. I am convinced now that Hank will handle barefoot just fine for ridden work As long as I don't allow him to get fat and keep him exercised.. and most importantly keep the farrier away form him!!!
Member: vickiann	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 6:25 pm: Sounds like you are on the right track, Diane. I do remember trying to canter circles a very long while after a past farrier had cut one foot way shorter than the other to eliminate a toe crack. It didn't seem like poor Lance would ever come right. It was a pretty rough ride for a long time but gradually the balance on the circles improved. It's amazing I didn't fall off as rough as he was going. Everything gets so much smoother and more stable (and safer!) when the feet have real balance in them. Keep up the good work!
Member: gramsey1	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 8:05 pm: I am going to remind you of an earlier comment and then quote you. Do you remember my comment from "The Chosen Road" on the "Spectrum of Usability". You probably won't put shoes on him but . . . Now, I'll quote you. It's almost like hooves, just because I perceive, I can picture it in my head the way those hooves should look, that isn't going to make them look any better. I need to have the tools and skill to get those hooves the way they should be... and even at that they may not reach the perceived notion. They may reach their potential tho... if I develop my skills and learn to read the hoof. I believe that horses are reactive prey animals. There is no time, only experience and now. Sometimes what you ask of him hurts. He is learning you are beyond the now. You are putting your finger on the pain. I have the deepest respect for you and all these animals have to teach us predators.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 8:41 pm: Guy, 1st I am very glad HA does weird things to other people!!! I was getting double weird posts last week, but only if they had pictures in them Do you have windows 7?, I think it is haunted! Yes I do remember your comment about the spectrum of usability and actually found it on the internet and read it, it makes good sense. I am trying my hardest to get Hanks hooves pain free, as you can see by all my parts I think we are getting there, his hooves are looking a little better, I hope the "blob" isn't going to be a problem for him. He really has been a happy horse lately, he has always been sweet... but not real happy, I asked the farrier years and years ago if his hooves could be part of his behavior problems under saddle, he said no ( of course) but I found it kind of funny everytime we went to cross a gravel road he refused to cross, and started backing. Hank is a "master of evasion" when something is bothering him whether it be me getting on his mouth, or his hooves hurting ect. I think finally I am getting it all pieced together. Thanks
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 9:53 am: Diane, see my Jan 4th posting above for a description of what you are labelling HKH. The images of the sensitive laminae in the article you link to are excellent examples of the lesions I described in my Jan 4th posting above. Though he presents many interesting theories as to why they form I believe they are most often caused by the damage of abscesses allowed to gravel out or possibly damage to the laminae from founder. Anything that can kill the sensitive laminae can result in poor healing and resultant permanent deformations in the white line. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 10:23 am: Dr.O. can these deformations cause pain or a slight "offness"? Would they make the horse more prone to seedy toe or WLD?? Thanks
Member: frances	Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 1:46 pm: Diane, I've never seen a blob, but then she is shod. I've googled "creana marginalis" in the past, but the articles that came up always stated that this notch on the coffin bone is NORMAL. So I thought the farrier must have got it wrong - until reading the article you posted. Just now I came across another article by KC in which he mentions "an abnormal increase in the size of the creana marginalis", so that kind of explains the seemingly different viewpoints. https://ezinearticles.com/?Horseshoes-and-the-Trims-They-Bring---HorseShoe-Manufa ctures-Set-the-Trend,-Our-Horses-Pay-the-Price&id=1290768
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 2:16 pm: Thanks for the article LL, The HKH or whatever a person might call it ( I kind of like blob) is strange, I wonder why if the horse has 2 similar hooves, and the same pathologies it seems to only happen to one hoof? Hanks RF doesn't have a blob... yet had a little more rotation (I think) Does your farrier think the "black hole seedy toe" contributed to the WLD your horse has? My farrier is ALWAYS dubbing Hanks toe off, I wonder if that was the beginning of this. At least I have pretty much been doing what it suggests as far as trimming. I wonder if this thing will ever go away, I should have took pictures today after I beveled his toe again, It does look better. That IS one DEEP hole tho.
Member: frances	Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 4:09 am: Diane, he says seedy toe and WLD are the same, it's just that the infection frequently starts at the toe (or heel, or quarters), hence the name. Many seem to share this belief, Stephen O'Grady for one in this article: https://www.equipodiatry.com/wldupdt.htm In the other article (the KC one) I posted the link to yesterday, I was quite taken aback by his warning that the contemporary belief in reducing breakover, sometimes "dramatically" as he puts it, "can lead to improper positioning of the coffin bone within the hoof capsule.....Aggressive rolling of the wall at the toe should be avoided...Avoid dubbing the wall or rockering of the toe into or palmar of the whiteline". Ok, it's AGGRESSIVE rolling of the toe that he warns against, but still - it makes you wonder. This is where I really need to upload your head-bashing icon!
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 5:53 am: LL VERY interesting, I have been following your thread about your horse and the WLD. It is interesting that O'Grady mentions the notched coffin bone and the picture looks like it has a "blob" and mentions it WOW. I knew this "blob" was something that wasn't good. The "seedy toe hole" connected to Hank's blob is very deep. Did your horse have the white powdery stuff or just the black hole? Thanks much for your input!!!
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 6:02 am: LL, I don't recall was your horse lame on the hoof with WLD or the "black seedy hole toe"? And when resectioned did it have the white powdery stuff further up or black seedy toe stuff? THANKS
Member: frances	Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 7:02 am: Diane, the "seedy toe" episodes have occurred two or three times over the years and have not been anything major - just a small area of hoof wall would be removed and I'd treat it with betadine. No lameness and no change in exercise schedule. Last June when she was found to have WDL we hadn't seen any sign of "seedy toe" first. She WAS in fact lame on the same leg that turned out to have WLD but as far as I know it wasn't because of sensitive tissue being involved, if that's what you're wondering. (What the vet found when I called him for the lameness was a swollen collateral ligament on the lateral aspect of the pastern. The farrier came the next day by coincidence and found the WLD, whereupon the vet said AHA, the WLD is the cause of the ligament strain. Ligament had been working overtime trying to stabilize a totally destabilized hoof.) To be honest, although I was there when the farrier resectioned I couldn't actually see what was under the removed wall. I don't THINK I've seen white powdery stuff at any time during all the cleaning - some black stuff yes but whether it was just dirt or seedy toe stuff I'm not sure. O'Grady's photo does show something VERY much like Hank's blob, doesn't it?
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 7:10 am: AH yes now I remember, I was searching for your post about the WLD but couldn't find it under the WLD section. The blob it self isn't as concerning as the black hole that is connected to it. Thanks
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 8:16 am: LL, So if we aggressively rocker/back the toe, perhaps taking away the hard outer wall opens the inner wall & white line to getting "diseased?" Hmmm...and one of my early attempts to get aggressive with Tango, left him sore and with pounding DPs, human induced laminitis. There are so many variables and variations to every situation! We have to always remember to consider all outcomes and prioritize I guess. Interesting!
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 8:28 am: Angie I think most of Hanks recent bouts of laminitis have been farrier induced, by dubbing his toe off and leaving him on his sole. I THINK it is how you go about the rockering and if they actually even need it. I think a pathological hoof like Hanks does, I have not been aggressive about it tho.Thinking back, most of Hanks ouchiness has followed a trim. In the redden video he is working with hooves that are not so "perfect" and have WL defects and cracks. If I recall he said once these pathologies are addressed the trim becomes more "normal"
Member: frances	Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 9:32 am: Angie, That makes sense and sounds likely, but I think what KC is talking about here is first the mechanical stress on the tip of the coffin bone that an over-enthusiastic rolling or dubbing can cause: "The majority of the proposed techniques" (of the last decade) "promote dramatic reduction in breakover, which can lead to improper positioning of the coffin bone within the hoof capsule". He introduces the trimming suggestions like this: "Here are some recommendations that may help in preventing mass growth" - meaning HKH presumably. I think that the entry of pathogens would be secondary to these physical changes in the hoof? And many of them (pathogens) exist inside the hoof anyway in manageable amounts until something (maybe separation?) provides the opportunity for their populations to explode. Then of course obesity/EMS can damage the laminae too - I wonder if that stress could also lead to the enlargement of the notch and therefore HKH?
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 8:09 pm: All, Ok, first the optimal word here is "balance". The second word is "aggressive". I would not call any thing any of us do overly aggressive because we do it slowly over a period of days or even weeks and we are doing it to "balance" the foot which is what K.C. is after. I think the people who K.C. is addressing most of this article to are the blacksmiths and trimmers that don't understand what "balance" really is and even if they do they mess it up by putting shoes on and rasping the foot to the shoe which unbalances it (but makes it look mighty pretty). And because they are trimming from the top to finish either the trim or the shoeing job the toes are dubbed off more than they should ever be. This is what causes the problem. Diane, Hank's feet were out of balance because of his flares and his diseased white line from his founder. Taking the toe back relieved the "stress" on his laminae and now what do you have? A fairly sound horse. You have not breached the inner part of the white line even when you rockered it. Your farrier, however, is a different story which is why Hank gets sore after he trims him. With Hank, if you did not do what you did as far as beveling and rockering his toe, his foot would be very unbalanced and he would not be as happy as he is. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 9:20 pm: Rachelle I agree, I rode hank tonight again and he really is doing quite well on gravel, rocks and pavement and his hooves are looking pretty good, ( I think) finally getting rid of the mud is a great help. I will get pics this weekend, I think we are just about there...barring no blob problems.
Member: kpaint	Posted on Tuesday, Mar 30, 2010 - 12:35 am: Amazingly, I think I understand most of what you girls are talking about.
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Mar 30, 2010 - 5:53 am: I had an epiphany last night about the "blob" I think our good Dr.O. called it a few years ago, I remember him saying something about undo stresses at the toe from setting the shoe back. After a couple shoeings like that is when the crack and blob formed 2007 Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 10:04 am: Edit PostPrint Post If the wall is well supported and the toe of the shoe not contacting the sole this might work OK. I worry a bit about where the shoe comes across the wall where it is set back and uneven forces leading to a crack. I like to place the shoe placed where I want the wall to grow to but with the flare in the front this might be defined as setting the shoe back also so you may be OK. DrO
Member: vickiann	Posted on Tuesday, Mar 30, 2010 - 10:55 am: Hmm, Very interesting, Diane!
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Tuesday, Mar 30, 2010 - 4:49 pm: I would be slow to attribute lameness to such a lesion once it is mature, that is the original cause of the problem is resolved and the tissues healed but a good exam with a set of hoof testers and blocks (no response to a PDN but responsive to a low pastern ring block) would be the way to increase your confidence it was causing lameness. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Mar 30, 2010 - 5:50 pm: Thanks Dr.O. he is not lame SURPRISINGLY!!!! I just took pics of his hoof and I tell ya I have just about had it with doing this!! Someone come trim this horse I can't take it anymore HOW he is sound is beyond my comprehension! He even trotted down those septic rocks today.. ugly hooves and all.

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