This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Hoof Care, Hoof Trimming, Shoeing Horses » The 4 Point or Natural Trim »
  Discussion on Hoof Critique 9... The good, the bad ,the ugly
Author Message
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 11:26 am:

I worked on Hanks hoof today and am still scratching my head a bit...

I like the idea of leaving the toe pillars.. kind of a squaring of the toe, keeps the toe from stretching more and is workingthe blob IS remodeling. the WL is tightening at the toe. (THE GOOD)

At the point where I am trying to leave the "toe pillars" the WL is still quite stretched there (but slowly improving)and this all gets kind of jumbled in my brain a bit.

The foundered hoof, the lamenar wedge which is kind of holding the hoof together, everything needs to be taken into consideration here right?

SOOO IF I keep the toe flare back, continue to leave the toe pillars for support, even tho they are stretched at this point it should be ok. They should take care of themselves..with a little help from me once the flare has grown out..hopefully correctly. IOW doesn't the lamenar wedge have to remain somewhat in order for the hoof to hold together as this progresses?

OR Since the toe flare is grown half down now do I dare get into this toe pillar? I really would like to, but experience tells me he gets sore without them.







Pointy frog starting to even up again



Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 11:32 am:

I think what I marked as red would still be safe to "get into" right? and probably should

Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 1:16 pm:

Ah, goody, Part 9!!! ha ha!

I don't know anything about "pillars" and I don't see how leaving a "squared toe" would benefit anything as this is obviously flare? Why wouldn't you want to follow the shape of the hoof? Is his coronet band even all the way around? Or, are some spots "pushed up" on the band?

What does concern me, and as always, based on my limited knowledge (NEVER EVER FORGET THAT, LOL!!!)
is if you look at the thickness of his hoof wall at the heels, that is the thickness you want every where...so I am Leary as to how much more you should do at this point. The flare has to grow down from the top, the beveling is helping to strengthen the whole hoof wall, and everything will be attached as it grows down. A constant flare prevents that from happening, correct?

Tango really does have the same thing going..one of these days I'll get a pic here, and right now I am cautiously just beveling, yet being careful not to get the wall lower than the sole.

You can't over bevel and leave him walking on his sole, yet has to have enough bevel to keep the outer hoof wall from taking all the contact.

I would be curious to see what others think at this point. If you want to email me these same pics, I'd be glad to ask my hoof helper her thoughts being I have the same questions with Tango's hoofs.

I THINK it's just a waiting game at this time. Keeping the bevel on with at the minimum touching that up every 2 weeks..that is my gut instinct right now. For what it's worth.

Is that rh corner higher? Always try to get a heel to toe shot to check for levelness that way. In looking at at the pictures again, I would very tempted to take some off from 2 to 10..and round the toe a bit..but that may be just to make it look better, follow your gut on that.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 1:39 pm:

Diane, it's time for you to get a regular rasp like farriers use. You're ready to graduate to that! The trouble with things like the RR is that they get dull and are expensive to replace. Regular rasps don't last forever either, but aren't nearly as expensive to replace. I go through rasps pretty quickly with five to trim and I really like a sharp rasp on their hard hooves. You have enough wall to take off that it's time for the real deal. It does take a bit to learn to efficiently handle one, but watching your own farrier or videos on the 'net help. Pretty soon, you'll be tossin' that thing back and forth like a pro!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 1:50 pm:

Ok I was looking at those pictures and the rt side of the pic that I drew lines on is REALLY bugging me!

So out I went again and rockered some more there.. I left toe height. OH it was starting to look much better! Now his hoof is all crooked kind of?? I guess it's always been like that but is shows more now that I got rid of some of that on the Rt. side.

He was licking and chewing as I was getting rid of that flare.



WHY is the left side(In the pic) of his hoof straight?? and the Rt. side rounded???

It's been like that for as long as I can remember and the wall is not as thick on the straight side...HMMMM maybe because of that flare I just worked on???

Angie, I walked Hank around on the hard ground and he didn't flinch... actually looked even better than he has, he trotted on it when he thought I was going after some hay for him(after this last tweek). I need to get rid of that stretched WL or no improvement will ever occur. I also broke through the blob and got rid of the crack

Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 1:59 pm:

Julie I have been using the travelers rasp.. I really love that thing! I use the RR to round the wall when done they compliment each other nicely.. I am going to get this I think https://www.hoofrasp.com/.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 2:12 pm:

OHHH much nicer I think???

Before.........................................After

Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 2:43 pm:

Diane,

You are doing a good job...keeping me occupied on a rainy U.P. day, lol!! I am kinda cleaning in the basement, but this is much more interesting.

'Nways, sometimes they trot off fine right after a trim, but show some soreness a day or two later. So I'd continue to be cautious.

"One step at a time, one day at a time." My hoof guru just sent me that, explaining her fears when she started trimming in '99. And she'd studied for I believe 2 years before that, with a certified (I hate to say this, some people panic!) Strasser person, or Strasser herself, I forget what she told me 3 years ago. She always reassures me her horses survived her learning curve, so will mine, and so will Hank! And Sam!

I'd do both front feet, if you didn't already do that, and then retreat for a few days..walk away from the rasp, ;-) and now study some more; that's what I still do.

And I agree with Julie, you need to get a REAL RASP, hee hee!!! And you deserve a hoofit stand too

https://www.horse.com/Hoof-it-Hoof-Stand-BIA99.html

Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 4:11 pm:

OH NO not Strasser All big name hoof specialist have something to offer, I don't agree with some parts of their theories and agree with others. I think the horse has to help tell us what works for them as an individual.

I would love to do what I'm thinking will help Hank.. but will refrain until next weekend. Let his hoof absorb what I did today. Actually I do one side one day and the other the next.. I figure he will have one good side if I break the other I did take a heel to toe shot and then the camera batteries died. That callous is something and where I started his rocker the last time out.





Member:
npo33901

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 3:19 am:

Diane - gosh , you do great job with Henk. I am learning a lot from your Henk and you .

Angie, the hoof stand etc. are good . I was going to ask you for advise about buying tools . Pete R oval knife is much more expensive !!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 7:36 am:

Thanks Anna, there is so much I want to do to Hanks hoof as I learn, but with the hard ground I am taking it easy. By part 10 he is going to have a "perfect" hoof...for Hank, that's my goal anyway.. I still got to get my "big girls rasp ordered" Keeping the weight off of him while he is locked up for weeks on end is proving a challenge also, which is important for his hoof health.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 9:16 am:

Anna,

My only other advice on tools is buy the coated rasp. I THINK it's the Simonds Black Master red tanged black coated rasp. And I think price matters. Last time I ordered 2 from I think Jeffers (dang but where did my good memory go?!)and for some reason they did not seem to last as long as the ones I ordered from farriercorral.com. They appeared to be the same rasp?

I was told by the gentleman I talked to from nature farms in OKC, that a rasp should be keep in brown paper between uses. He suggested spraying with WD-40; I spray with Kool Lube, what you use on clippers.

Hmmm...no farrierscorral to be found, this is where rasps came from that lasted:

https://naturefarmsfarriersupply.com/store/index.php/cPath/57_92?osCsid=6a5ff138d b4b9683887b0dd2fbbb6fb0

Number 705.

Diane,

Would that be BOOK TWO, chapter 10?! ;-)! Sorry, couldn't resist!

Let me know how you like the rasp you mentioned above, I will be needing new ones in a few months.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 3:46 pm:

YEE of little faith! I think I have his hoof figured out now! I think. The next part will be Hanks perfect hoof..for HIM!

I still have a little space left on part 9 for questions
Member:
leilani

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 4:11 pm:

Hi Diane,

I too have started to do my own trims. I recently bought a Hoof Jack that really helps. I purchased my rasps from www.star-ridge.com. I like the 12" F. Dick for "hers".

This is quite the journey, but I am learning so much about feet. I have enjoyed and learned from all the posts. Take care. Leilani
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 4:37 pm:

Thanks Leilani, I may try that one I do like the looks of the "hoofrasp" too. I don't want to invest in a hoof stand quite yet... haven't decided how serious I am about this yet, and know if I lame someone..that will put me off a bit, but then again the farrier does it all the time!

I wish I had "normal hooves" to work with Hank and Sams scare me! Flash self trims herself quite well with little help.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 5:05 pm:

I like the look of that "her"s rasp Leilani. Diane, that would be a good one for you to start with. Being shorter (it, not you) you can get used to handling it quicker. After seeing Sam's hoof, I think he needs you to take over the farrier duties and a "big girl" rasp is definitely in order!
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 5:24 pm:

Angie, how long do you go with a rasp before you replace it .?
AM.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 7:40 pm:

I am not sure. I wrote the date on the one I am using now to answer that question. I seem to remember telling my husband when I ordered 2 they would last me til the end of the year; I think I started using the new one in November. Which means I am getting longer use of them than I estimated. You can use one a real long time if you are also using nippers, which I don't, and depending on how many hoofs you are doing and how hard the hoofs are. I start with the newer/sharper rasp, and then pickup the older/duller one sometimes to finish.

I see you have 2 horses, I would think one new rasp a year would work for you.

Diane,

I have all the faith in the world in your ability to do those darn hoofs! I do know there is a learning curve that can kick the butt of the most well intentioned "Hoof trimmer wannabe!"
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 6:41 am:

Yea I am afraid the learning curve is going to get me eventually.

I'm trying to figure out how to start a blog on Hanks hooves ( I think I got it) so I don't have to overwhelm HA and can keep track of Hanks Hooves and probably Sams. Once I get it up and running I will post the URL, so hopefully you all will continue to help me
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 8:04 am:

Sounds good Diane. You can also email and send me pictures if you wish. Of course most my advice will probably be "bevel, bevel, bevel!"

Seriously, keeping that mustang roll updated, the walls LEVEL (ALWAYS look down the hoof heel to toe, and not just the day you trim, re-check the next day too!)and keep an eye on those pesky quarters, and you've got it! Then just sit back and wait for the hoof to evolve into the form it wants.

Now, doesn't that sound simple?! :-^) (tongue in check)(eyes rolling)
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 9:57 am:

Angie, thanks, I didn't have any idea about longevity of a rasp . Violino has hoofs as stone, it will be hard work . I canot bug it with the R.rasp.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 11:29 am:

Diane, check out the trimming subtopic of the Overview of Laminitis I have expanded on the principles there to make it clearer.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 1:54 pm:

This weeks tweek

I think I am getting it now, I am slowly getting rid of that flare and it looks so much nicer! He is moving pretty well on the hard ground, I do see a little hesitation sometimes or a "stutter step" but this ground is like frozen solid ice peaks, he is handling it quite well. I finally got them out of the paddock, but am continuing to lock him on soft bedding at night... don't want to over due!

The crack is GONE on the front of his hoof


The underside...we're getting there. he walked off fine when done, I picked up his hoof again and could see the dirt where he had broke over..very good it needs to come back a little more, but we are getting close. It was right behind the toe callous...which is shrinking, I don't know whether to feel good, bad or indifferent about that??

The bars are getting straighter and his heel point is slowly coming back. I am going to leave them alone now for awhile I think.. just going to bevel until the ground softens up a bit, I don't like pushing my luck! and I need to study more, I don't understand a few things the way I should..need a light bulb moment on some of them...but I think it will all start coming together soon...until then I will play it by ear until I get confused again... which doesn't take much

Anything here you see that I need to do different?

Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 11:24 am:

Hey guys, I am really debating with myself whether to have the farrier out. I don't think I can handle Sam's back hooves. The mare could use a trim and he does fine with her altho I think he has been leaving her heel too long(tall).

Do you think I should have him do anything to Hanks hoof at this point?I have been doing all my rasping from the bottom, he does it from the top with the hoof stand... anything you can see he needs done from the top In the pic above? I can get different pics if it would help. I wish I was knowledgeable enough to tackle Sams back hooves but I don't think I am. They are really a dished out of balance mess.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 11:56 am:

Diane,

Will he listen to you and do the things that you think need to be done without giving you an argument or telling you that you don't know what you are doing, when its so obvious that you do. In other words is his ego going to get in the way?

Ask him if he would have any difficulty with doing the trim from the bottom, even if its not what he's used to doing. If he does it from the top or if he goes near any of your horses with a set of nippers, I would not have him out.

You have just spent weeks, months and years getting to this point, and I would hate for you to wind up with a sore horse (any of them) at this point. It's been a quiet few days.

Does he charge per horse or does he charge per visit? If he does come out, you might want him to evaluate where you are at and see if he agrees with the direction you have taken, if he does that's great, if he doesn't, before he touches anything, I would want a reason why he did not agree and a reason why/how he would fix the problem(s) he sees.

With Sam, even though his hind feet are a mess, I would not do a traditional trim on him just yet( by traditional I mean, farrier comes takes off all extra hoof growth because he won't be back for quite some time and the horse winds up sore because too much has been taken off at once). I think your farrier needs to understand that you will be doing the interim trims and all you need him to do is start you off in the right direction.

After he gets done, you need to take a look while he's there( Inspect his work) by now you know what everyone's feet should look like after they are trimmed correctly.

You are your horses' advocate and in my opinion you have every right to question anything done ( or about to be done to your horses.

Just my thoughts
Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 12:16 pm:

Thanks Rachelle, actually the guy does listen to me, (he thinks I'm kind of nuts tho) His ego does not get in the way. He encourages me to rasp in between if my heart desires.

My problem with him is he does not educate himself and can only do a basic pasture trim. I have asked him before to bevel Hank, truly I'm not sure he knows what that means. I've been asking for a "rockered" or even a squared off toe on him for years... he does it backwards and chops everything off at the top...leaving sore Hank horse

I decided to get brave and work a little on Sams back hooves. beveled a little and evened them up...he behaves much better for me than the farrier...he hates the farrier doing his back hooves. He doesn't do anything bad, just keeps pulling them away.. he didn't do that once while I was working on them. I didn't even have him tied or haltered Indeed they are a mess, big mess! Maybe I will give them a shot for awhile and see what happens, I expected a fight when I was working on them and he seemed perfectly happy so I guess that's a good sign. I really} need to get a different rasp!!!

Thanks I appreciate your opinion, he probably would hack everything off, whether I was watching or not and leave him on his soles like he did Hank... I guess I just really don't want to do it for fear of making him go backwards to sore pony. I was talking about banamine one day and he had never heard of it.... that kind of made me wonder about him! VERY nice fella tho.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 1:03 pm:

Diane,

I went through several farriers that thought I was nuts too until I found my current trimmer, he understands me. It seems the farriers( and yes I am generalizing) are not interested in much more than nailing on shoes over a pasture trim and really couldn't care less what they do as long as the horses feet look pretty after they are done. They like the metal work involved not the finessing of the horses feet to balance them properly.

Sorry to all you Farriers out there on HA, but 35+ years as a traditional horse trainer and 4 plus years as a barefoot/nailless enthusiast has taught me the difference.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 1:26 pm:

I think the biggest problem is around these parts that is all that is expected of the farrier. He doesn't need to learn anymore so why bother..I'm more obsessed about hooves then he is You should see his horses hooves UGGHHH

If a horse goes lame they stay lame or get "sold" he isn't asked to "fix them" I have seen other hooves he has trimmed if he has a horse like Flash he does ok. the long toe and underun heel are not addressed by him. I would like him to get me going in the right direction with Sams hooves, but I am not sure he knows anymore than I do...he has a big rasp tho!... Guess I will think about this for awhile.. no hurry.. I can bevel on him for awhile and see what transpires. I am going to order a rasp right now!!!
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 1:36 pm:

Diane, something I have done is just a couple minutes of basic rasping, not enought to 'do' the job, just some.
Come back the next day, do a bit more, etc.

This has worked really well on a horse that didn't want to keep his foot up for very long.

I got the feet done and because I worked a little bit each day he got used to his feet being done and learned patience.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 2:33 pm:

Diane, if your farrier is the one who has been doing Sam's feet and they're in this condition, um, do you want to continue with him??? Go to your feed store right now--I bet they have "big girl" rasps. Like Lori says, a few swipes a day with the rasp will eventually result in a balanced foot. Several times I've acquired a weanling or yearling with funky feet from never having been trimmed. So the task is training them let me work on their hooves and getting that hoof shaped up asap. By the time they are willing to stand quietly for an entire trim, they don't need one as part of the training process included a few swipes with the rasp.
A decent rasp won't cost you more than $17.00 to $20.00 and if your feed store doesn't have one, ask the farrier where he gets his. I bet you can find one locally so you can start giving those "swipes" each time you pick up a hoof. Now, stop reading and get shopping!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 3:18 pm:

Julie you kill me. I already looked around this area for a rasp, thought for sure where I buy my hay pellets would have one...they didn't. Had everything but a rasp! You make sense tho he is the one who has been trimming him and Hank, their hooves certainly can't look any worse with me doing them I guess.

It is ordered, I decided to try that barefoot sculptor rasp since I don't have a hoof stand yet.

Lori, Sam held his back hooves perfectly for me..he doesn't for the farrier, that was one thing that worried me, but he was great so I guess I don't have that excuse.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 11:06 am:

Good for you, Diane.

If Sam doesn't want to hold his back hooves for the farrier but is good for you, he may be trying to tell you something.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 - 2:39 pm:

Interesting and don't know if it is good or bad?

Today was bevel day again, am trying to keep the toes back and that's about it for now. Don't know if I am doing something wrong... or seeing things or it is OK

The interesting thing.. that black extra WL I referred to earlier is gone, he had that forever and it has been quite a puzzle to me. You can see there is now a line in his sole where it was??? Good riddance to it!

The toe callous is getting smaller, and depending how you percieve that I guess it could be considered good... since I don't believe it was a healthy callous, just something to help him cope with the hard ground...however there is a little bruising apparent in the pics and occasionally he does seem a little tender on hard ground(nothing alarming)

Another strange thing when looking at his hoof from the side it appears to look flat in front..I don't see the dish anymore...BUT that flat appearance is strange Am I doing something wrong to make it appear so flat????

Then there is the "blob" it seems to be remodeling, but whether that is for the good dunno???

ANY opinions? Should I call the farrier I think I may be starting to make a mess of things! Thanks







Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 - 2:49 pm:

Forgot these two the first showing the blob is trying to be a separate entity and the heel points seemed to have moved back a little.



Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 - 5:09 pm:

I would A) do some work on those bars.
B) take my rasp flat across at the toe, from bottom, at this point until I saw the "Yellow line" clearly, and then rebevel.

I'd rasp at the heels too, following the angle of the frog. I don't think he will get sore from any of the above, I do think he needs some hoof wall taken off all around, rasping flat from the bottom. And/or "scooping" quarters. Once you clean it up, the blob will look less threatening I think.

I think I know where you are at in your learning, and next step is to be a bit braver with using the rasp like I am suggesting.

Red lines rasp angle, direction, laid flat. Blue some bar that can come off. Yellow ** shows that could come down a bit there.

I hope I put the red line far enough up to leave your pillars?

'Nways, that's what I would do based on what I see in the pictures. I think you can be braver in the winter if you have snow cover ;-).
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 - 5:20 pm:

Thanks Angie, here is the reason I hesitate.. this Blob..or scar tissue is distorting things.

There is the blob..then a gap...then it takes off and forms a form of a false white line...it is strange! I'm not sure if that blob is holding things together or not! It almost appears as if it makes his WL split off and take a detour.

I can almost scrape his bars off his hoof is pretty wet with the snow.

What do you make of the scar tissue?? Dr.O. any ideas?

Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 - 7:18 pm:

Well after a little research it would seem this is related to Hanks previous founders...as Dr.O. said. and also his lamellar wedge I have been trying to figure out... but this helps for anyone interested, Think I'm in over my head with this stuff. There is a pic in there that looks just like Hanks blob and crack.
https://www.hoofrehab.com/wallcracks.htm
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 9:29 am:

Diane,

O.K., I hate it when you provide a link, something I read before, more than once most likely, and now I need to look at all 16 of my hoofs more closely!!!

What I got from the article was to start the bevel "rocker", 1/4" outside the "TRUE SOLE." Which would be what Redden was it, also showed on the video?

And if you look at the last pictures in the article, the heels are lower, as are the bars.

Isn't he saying to let the sole be more weight carrying and UNload the outer walls? (I wish he had put the setup trim on the page, how far did he go the first time?) And as long as you do the bevel correctly, isn't it o.k. to rasp flat across the bottom as I suggested?

I hope so, because I've been doing that, and both Cody and Willow have something..crack and or blob on one toe, front hoofs. Seems to be very minor...but...

I am questioning your questions because I don't know myself, lol!

And know we shouldn't lower heels too much if the hoof isn't ready for it. And if we don't do enough, no stimulation takes place to get the hoof growing correctly.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 9:42 am:

P.S., I thought I was seeing lamellar wedge on Tango last summer, and that is why he got sore in front. I had backed his toe back VERTICALLY too much, and did not have enough wall height vertically. I THINK I went vertically to the white line, not beveled to the white line. I got in a hurry, wanting results NOW.

I know you won't do that, you are being cautious!

I think what I did would be the equivalent of you rasping back vertically to the bottom of the word "blob" in your picture above.

I may have it all wrong, but that's what I think I did to cause Tango's laminitis last summer.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 1:36 pm:

Hi everyone,
I have been having a bit of a problem with getting my normal email notifications and I noticed that there have not been too many discussion board posts over the last few days, I emailed administration to let them know. I just got back on to the website and was able to pick up the discussion from here.

OK, Angie, the outer wall should not be loaded only the inner wall. The horse should not be loading his soles either. If Hank's hoofs were normal the soles would be concave and not bear the brunt of the loading, Hank's inner walls, frogs and bars would take the proper loading.

That said, let me explain what I think is going on. Hank is on soft snow, no normal exfoliation of his sole that would happen on different footing. Since the sole is not exfoliating naturally, the loading is on his soles. He most likely has some false sole and some newly growing sole underneath.

If you rasp flat across (as Angie says) the wall down to the level of the sole and then bevel and do not go past that point, you should be ok. your rasp will only catch the high spots, if any on the sole. I would also take the bars down a bit as well.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 1:47 pm:

Angie rasping vertically into the toe is what my farrier does, leaves Hank sore all the time.

I think Hank has quite a lamellar ledge, BUT the way his hoof is changing I THINK it may be slowly improving. I've read up on the lamellar wedge and it almost seems as if most suggest a resection to get rid of it. I wonder if the black line I added isn't the shadow of the coffin bone mentioned?



The reason I think it may be improving is his sole does not bulge above the WL at the toe anymore it has for 2 years (kind of like Cheryl K's horse) He did have 2 pretty significant lines if you recall in his hoofwall.. close to where that brown discoloration is... where they ran the hoof wall was flat... This seems to be "relaxing" I can't find those lines anymore...I looked closely today as it had me curious. His hoof wall is becoming "unwrinkled" I don't know if that is even possible, but that is the way it appears. They were too high on the hoof wall to have grown out already They are gone or relaxed maybe is the best word.

The blob, is a worrisome thing, funny how the farrier has never "gotten into it" I am still waiting for my rasp to arrive

I don't know whether if I rasp into the lamellar ledge and blob if I will have a mess I'm not prepared to handle?

Hank is doing fine on the "normal" winter ground, but the jagged stuff is starting to get him, I can tell by the way he sidles to get on the softer stuff, at this point maybe I should leave well enough alone?... altho I am finding it hard to resist getting into the "blob" maybe I should have the farrier out and let him do it.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 1:57 pm:

Rachelle we were posting at the same time... I couldn't get on HA this morning either.

HMMMM I don't think he has false sole, usually when he does you can't see the black pigmentation on his soles.

Have you ever heard of or dealt with a lamellar ledge? I'm not real sure if rasping across the toe where the blob and gap are is a good idea...I sure want to tho
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 4:27 pm:

Angie, looking at DVD disc ten of Pete Ramey, It seems like Diana's problem .
Diane, the black line would be the coffin bone - according to the above mention DVD.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 5:28 pm:

I think IF that was an outline of his coffin bone I would be in trouble.... it sure looks like it tho if you look at the picture without the lines drawn on it HMMMMMMMMMMM

But here is why I think I am having improvement...but how to handle it from here???

Look at these Coffin bone outlines and sole protrusion.

This one is blurry but look at that outline sticking up....He was DEAD lame at that point

JUNE 07 OUCH

OUCH

NOV 07

OUCH

Mar 08 OUCH



Jan. 09



and well you have seen this years...improvement anyway and the coffin bone isn't leaving bruising behind... but still a delicate hoof..that is starting to stump me
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 6:54 pm:

Anna-Marie,

Hoof study has gone out the door for me lately, but I'll review that one if the computer will play it.

Diane, hmmm..yup, I am thinking coffin bone outline too. So what to do? Let me see if I can review the DVD and give something constructive for you to go on.

Definitely improvement, and with the right techniques, right time, should see quicker improvement.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 7:19 pm:

Angie/Diane, are you thinking the semi-circle bulge about an inch from the tip of the frog and right behind outer/inner hoof wall is the outline of the coffin bone which has rotated down? Is that what you all have referred to in the past as a toe callous? I'm having trouble remembering!

D, thanks for the Ramey link.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 8:19 pm:

Vicki that is the toe callous the "lump" he has had in front of his toe...tho not a healthy one IMHO just something he needs now to protect the coffin bone. In the last picture I posted Jan. 09 that lump is a toe callous.

In the march 08 pic that red bruising shaped like a U is coffin bone bruising (IMHO) knocking on the sole so to speak.

IN the Nov. 07 picture that is a hoof falling apart! he has a deteriorated WL... the sole is protruding..and I'm surprised he could even walk. Looked like his sole was going to just DrOp out.

I'm not sure what that was in the June 07 pic.. I looked and couldn't find a good one of it, but it sure looks like the outline of the CB.

Poor Hank, I'm surprised he can walk barefoot. His last x-ray in July of 08 looked pretty good considering everything. If I can get some extra cash around this summer I may have some more taken to see where we stand. After I get Sams $400 bill paid off..sigh
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 8:56 pm:

1 hour, 34 minutes to watch the 10th DVD, Acute Laminitis. The most I can offer with that all fresh in my mind is: Just continue to keep the mustang roll fresh and you will get a perfect hoof as long as diet is healthy, and horse has movement. It will take several growth cycles doing it that way, but if you are not willing to buy the DVD's, and watch them yourself, it's just way to difficult to "See" with words alone. I would not understand it all with just posting for advice, and even after watching it, I would be very hesitant to fix a foundered horse alone.

Those hoofs have come a long way, yet I feel really strongly you owe it to your horses, and yourself, to study those DVDs.

So, I am not going to offer much more specific at this time. But I'll keep following your progress.

I know he's past "Acute Laminitis"

An interesting tidbit: Growth is measured in miles, not time.

Sorry, don't mean to sound grumpy! Or tell you to spend $$!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 - 9:05 pm:

Now you see what I have been up against I do not want to fix this foundered hoof myself..but yes he is way beyond acute and that is why it isn't quite so frightening.

Diet has been addressed which is half the battle! I am so very horse poor right now I really can't spring for the DVD's but maybe when we get our tax return I might be able to swing it...until then I will continue to bevel and guess (conservatively)

Angie I don't think you sound grumpy And you and many others have been a GREAT help, I appreciate the time you have put in to help us.

When I get my real rasp I am going to try something...we'll see what happens
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Feb 15, 2010 - 8:43 am:

Diane,

I was feeling frustrated after watching the DVD. That poor horse was really suffering!

And I feel frustrated because I don't know if I've given you good/correct advice. Like maybe you should NOT rasp across the bottom, or lower the heels much more. (I do think they can go down half their current "height")

I hear ya about the being horse poor, yet I do strongly feel you are at a point where if you want to go on with trimming and fixing what you've got to deal with, you need either at min., a weekend hands on course, or to purchase some DVDs...don't have to be PRs. I don't have any to compare to, but 16 hours is pretty in depth!

When I think back on the 2 1/2+ years I was teaching myself from articles and videos online, AND I had a personal long distance helper who spent countless hours looking at 100s of hoof pictures, I still was just bumbling around in the dark. (And I still have questions and concerns...my poor helper, she is going to get a ton of "Hoofs 2010" pictures soon!)

And I wasn't dealing with hoofs recovering from founder!

I do think you can get rock crunching hoofs in their best form doing what you are doing; but it could be so much quicker, and SAFER, with more in depth learning from PR or...

And you will still have plenty of questions to post on here
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 15, 2010 - 10:53 am:

Angie you must have figured out by now I don't do anything to his hoof that doesn't make sense for HIM. I do know Hanks hoof well and what he can and can not tolerate. All advice is always appreciated tho, it keeps the "wheels turning"

I think we are on the last lap of fixing him...if he doesn't bruise this winter AND if I keep his weight in check.

I wish that darn rasp would get here! I do know at this point I do not want to lower his walls any further..he is wearing them off himself on the hard ground and he is getting to the point of "no return" and why I think he is starting to get sore on the hard ground... For now I am leaving his hoof alone until we get some normal ground around here. The blob still confuses me tho!
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Feb 15, 2010 - 11:06 am:

Good luck Diane, your tenacity is admirable. No way would I touch the hooves around here yet other than to smooth out a rough spot on the wall...chip or something small...

Barefoot trimmer comes wed. Hope to have pix before and after on a new discussion for you all to critique.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Feb 15, 2010 - 11:57 am:

My wheels were turning while exercising, ha ha! And I wonder if the blob isn't some sign of stress from months ago? Maybe he had a crack in the hoof wall you don't remember, or he was somehow putting some uneven pressure on the part of his inner hoof workings. I think it might be something from long ago, and if you just ignore it, and keep on beveling, I think in a couple of months you won't notice it. It's weird, but unless you try to rasp it right away into nothing, which I know you won't do, I wouldn't be so worried about it.

Could it be an actual chip on the front of his CB? Looking at Nov 07, is that possible? IF so, would it matter?

I feel like that robot from "Lost in Space"...brain overload, lol!
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, Feb 15, 2010 - 1:23 pm:

Thanks for posting that link Diane, I have read that page before but some days things sink in more than others =)

The key passage for me was this:

An old wall crack can damage the laminae, a benign tumor can disrupt growth, a deformity or an adaptive change in the coffin bone can leave a gap in the laminae.

The natural crena or cleft at the center of the coffin bone is over exaggerated in some horses; most commonly it seems in draft stock. This can also leave a gap in the laminae (If you see a horse with multiple, dead-center toe cracks you can count on this one; look for the tell tale ‘divot’ in the sole, mirroring the ‘notched’ shape of the coffin bone.

I have a mare that has a 'divot' on both fronts, I think for her the second paragraph is what is going on. She has a crack on her RF (which is more upright) that comes and goes, it happens to be gone right now. The LF just has the divot with no crack.

Does Hank show a divot on any other feet? Or does he have an old crack or injury? You saying that there was black stuff connected to the blob leads me to think that this is an old crack that got thrush or something up inside it...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 15, 2010 - 1:41 pm:

I think the blob is scarred lamanaie from being a chronic founder. Whether it can be "fixed" remains to be seen.

I wouldn't be afraid to rasp it out and see what happens IF he wasn't starting to act sore... right now I think he needs soft ground and me to leave his hoof alone for awhile, before the severe bruising begins. His hoof isn't liking the peaked, jagged stuff anymore!

Shannon that is his only "blob" and a crack is connected to it the more I rasp the "blob" the bigger the crack gets I have it unloaded and am dumping thrushbuster on it a couple times a week. I do not believe it is thrush, or infection, I think it is "congestion" from his previous founders. If you look back in part 8 about the blob Dr.O. explains it a little.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 15, 2010 - 4:39 pm:

DARN, I just checked Hanks hooves out...let the bruising begin. The LF is the one I have been more attentive to because of the blob and it actually isn't too bad.. RF is NOT good. It looks a lot like the Jan 09 pic...maybe a little worse. Didn't have my camera, but when I go feed supper I will try to get a pic of it
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Monday, Feb 15, 2010 - 5:21 pm:

Diane , I wish I'd had the knowledge to help you !! Very frustrating ..........
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 15, 2010 - 7:05 pm:

OK I have a confession to make(don't yell at me!), I have only been doing Hanks left side.. front and back as an experiment of sorts I wanted to see if my rasping would make him worse or better and what better way than to compare the 2 sides?? Plus I figured he would have one good side when I lamed him up.(lack of confidence)

well I am happy to say the left is much better and I better get started on the Rt. He is only sore on the RF it appears. I can play catch up easily I think..WHEN I get my rasp

It is gloomy here today again so the pic isn't the greatest, his hoof was wet...but umm I think you can see the difference.... both hooves had the same amount of rotation.. His WL and heel point are definitely looking better on the LF...So see Angie you and the others have been a GREAT help... and I am actually happy to see just rasping and beveling is helping tremendously.. now to get on the RF and catch up... he is only sore on the RF so I guess that tells me something right?

RF


LF



Member:
stek

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 - 1:28 pm:

Oh Diane that is a good one .. one good side ! I can just picture Hank standing on two feet on the same side.

I see a huge difference in where his heel points are, you are doing a great job!!

One thing I think we should all keep in mind .. I know we all try to get our horses' hooves perfect at every trim, but in the wild horses self-trim by chipping off giant chunks, so they go through periods (however brief) of unevenness at various times throughout their 'self-trimming cycle'.

So, at least in my mind, while long-term poor trimming will add up to problems, little imperfections here and there aren't that big of a deal, especially if we err on the side of caution. Better to keep at it and get things right over time than to be paralyzed into inaction for fear of making a mistake. Just my two cents!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 - 2:54 pm:

As to the self-trimming, I think that this works much better when there is good balance to begin with, laterally and medially.

Lacking good balance horses' feet very often don't break in the correct places.

And unfortunately many of the environments where horses are kept (such as my grassy sand hills) are not at all conducive to self-trimming.

My farrier encourages us to spend some time walking on asphalt roads, between trims, if possible.

You are right, Shannon about erring on the side of caution.

"Little imperfections" are certainly much less of a big deal on barefoot horses than when shoes are put on over them.

Most horses are probably not greatly affected by them as long as the same ones don't continue to persist, which is what seems to happen with poor farrier work.

As for getting the very best performance from a horse, just a couple of swipes of a rasp can make a pretty big difference sometimes.

My horse Lance is one who is fantastic right after a trim but as he gets even a little long, the ride will be less fine.

My farrier says some horses are that way -- more like high performance sports cars than ordinary sedans, and therefore requiring more frequent maintenance.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 - 4:30 pm:

Yes poor, crooked Hank, he's been quite the guinea pig for my experiments!. At least I know now it does make a difference...I was a bit skeptical

As far as self trimming I think Vicki is right depends on the horse. Flash my old girl will break off a perfect hoof, always has. Hank and Sam make messes of things and their hooves do not wear evenly or crack off nicely. As my pictures above show the Rt. front is not doing anything to help me, it has cracked off in the outside quarter, but not very nicely..I did run the rasp over that to keep it from getting worse, so haven't totally ignored the Rt. side
Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 - 5:00 pm:

Diane, I'm going to go get a rasp and mail it to you if you don't get one this week!!!!
Member:
stek

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 - 5:13 pm:

What I meant by the self-trimming comment was that when a horse is going through the self trimming process their feet will be ragged and uneven for a time. First the quarters break out, then the toes, usually in big ugly vertical chunks, then the edges get smoothed out to the point where they have a perfect foot. I think if your overall trimming technique is good, a little bit of unevenness here and there isn't going to be the end of the world.

Granted we should strive to do the best job we can, and always keep working towards the ideal, but I do think it's possible to overthink it to the point where we can become afraid to do anything for fear of what we do not being perfect...

I think that on an adult horse, uneven wear in the presence of good trimming usually indicates a conformation problem. For those horses we will be forever trying to help them be as close to ideal for them as possible, while dealing with the legs they were made with.

I wonder, though: given the right living conditions, would every horse eventually self-trim to the perfect hoof shape for them? Or would they get worse and worse and worse over time? Any thoughts?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 - 6:11 pm:

Shannon I agree with you. There is no such thing as a "perfect" hoof all horses are individuals. I am really surprised how easy it is to rasp a little here and there..I was scared to death to try it. I thought for sure I would make a mess and lame the poor guy for life. I do like to think about it, especially the "blob"! but semi- perfect is OK with me

As for your last question, I think it would depend on many factors, but it seems horses can adapt to about any hoof. I have seen horses around here that NEVER get trimmed, I got to say for the most part they tend to get worse...except for a few. BUT they are kept on lush, wet pastures in the summer, and probably don't move anymore then they have to. And wet snowy ground in the winter. I think it would depend on terrain, environment, diet, movement,luck any existing pathologies. ect.

But one thing for sure they seem to manage, whether they are comfortable in those hooves is another story.

Julie I will take you up on that! I ordered that thing OVER a week ago. My credit Card was charged Fri...so it better get here this week!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 - 7:42 pm:

In the wild those not strong enough to adapt do not survive, so they do not pass along bad hoof genes. Nobody nurses the weak along in the "survival of the fittest" world.

Sometimes horses will have uneven wear due to factors not related to conformation, such as compensating in their way of going on account of pain somewhere, because of being ridden by a poor or unbalanced rider, or even an ill-fitting saddle causing pain.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 - 7:53 am:

Diane,

Where did you order from? I know I take speed of delivery into account when I order stuff. For example Horse.com (Country Supply) has some of the lowest prices including low shipping. But when I had to drive to the post office to get 3 saddle racks I ordered, I was not impressed. What were they thinking sending through the post office? And taking something like 2-3 weeks to get them that far!

For future reference, if you only trim 2 hoofs, it would be better to just do the 2 fronts one day, and the 2 hinds another day. I know you are just tweaking and it wasn't a big deal, yet little things can affect the horse as we know!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 - 8:02 am:

Angie I ordered that" barefoot sculptor" I posted about earlier. I DID call them last week to make sure they received my order!

The reason I didn't do both front hooves is because they are so similar...other than the "blob" and I was unsure how it would all turn out. The ground is soft during the day from the sun shining on it, at night it hardens up. In the morning it is quite obvious his Rt. front bothers him. I guess that means I am helping him on the left side anyway My travelers rasp (which I LOVE) has gotten quite dull tho so now I wait for the other one..
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 - 8:27 am:

Oh, that's right, you did say that. Now I am anxious for you to get it, I am awaiting feedback on how you like it!

I took advantage of our fluffy snowfall and tweaked Tango's hoofs yesterday. I am sooo sick of that stretched white line/flaring, I want it GONE! So I beveled more aggressively.

Hmmm...Note to self: It's dangerous to trim hoofs when the wind is blasting the metal barn, twice as dangerous when hubby is running the snowblower by the barn!

Tango was pretty rearing in the cross ties but darn lucky he didn't crack his head on the light fixture! Or crack my head!!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 - 12:54 pm:

Julie put the rasp on hold...mine arrived today Too bad I have to go back to work. I'll let you know what I think of it when I can examine it, and use it.

Angie I still have a broken foot from when Hank jumped on my foot when snow slid off the tin roof!
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 - 3:21 pm:

Oh, ouch, do you have a plaster cast ? Poor you !
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 - 7:37 pm:

LOL no plaster cast, I have to be dying before I will go to the Dr.! Just a big hoof shaped bruise on my foot, it's starting to itch now so it must be healing

I tried the barefoot sculptor on Hank tonight just to see how it would work, I couldn't get a good feel for it,Too used to my little travelers rasp. I'll have to play with it this weekend and try to start to get Hank evened up
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 - 7:57 pm:

Broken foot bones seem to just go along with keeping horses.

In my case, they most often have happened when I was not fully paying attention or was rushing around.

Speaking of plaster casts, though -- my biggest shock in this regard was a time when I went out of town for several days and my Arab, Perry, blew an abscess out at his heel. A well-meaning Vet (who I had expressly asked my horse care person, NOT to have attend in the case of any emergency), not too long out of school, and more attuned to cattle, goats and pigs, put a hard, standing cast on Perry's hind foot.

Before too long he was working up to a case of gangrene, due to the rubbing of leg on hard cast.

I had to pay the senior Vet to come out on a Sunday to cut the hard cast off.

It was kind of funny because he had said to me before he came, "Can't you remove it yourself?"

Never mind that it was a hard cast that had to be removed with an electric saw. Yes, I'd like to do that every day!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 8:18 am:

What to do??? Hank is tippy toeing on the hard ground in the morning, quite obvious it bothers him.

I don't know whether to just leave him choose whether he wants to walk around on it OR lock him on soft ground overnight in the lean to?? During the day it usually softens up quite a bit and he looks fine. He does have slightly increased DP's.

His Rt. looks worse but the left is starting to tippy toe also.

"bed him on the ground he lives" OR try to prevent bruising and the fun that follows, by locking him on soft ground? He is usually in the lean-to in the morning and doesn't come out and "pace" like he usually does since the ground is hard. IF winter hadn't decided to linger longer than normal I think we would have made it through... It is starting to get him now and the cold is suppose to hang on. I have been feeding them where there is still deep snow, but it doesn't take long before that gets "trampled" into hard jagged ground... and I'm running out of "soft" spots.

Am I being paranoid as usual?? Are other peoples horses tippy toeing on the hard jagged ground? Rock crusher Flash is fine. Sam looks OK on it, he does slow down a bit, but Hank is definitely worse.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 9:41 am:

I am always in favor of letting nature run it's course so to speak. Given the aggravation (for me) of getting a special set up ready to keep a horse happy, I tend to go with "If you're too dumb to take it easy when you are hurt, then suffer!" I think if I keep on babying a horse, how will he toughen up?

Of course I am not saying that applies to Hank!

I don't see anything so serious myself as to warrant looking him up. He is in a transition period yet. It may be his heels are weak yet too, and the movement will help, right?

Some days it's just easier not to look at your horses!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 7:02 pm:

I think maybe the constant state of wetness is not helping anything. I'll leave him be I guess, unless his DP's pick up or he gets heat in his hoof. He tends to stay in the lean-to when the ground is hard so maybe he does have a few brains. I just don't want the bruised soles snowball to start.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Feb 19, 2010 - 10:55 am:

If Hank can tolerate the hard ground it will help toughen his feet up. The trouble is too much too fast sometimes results in problems.

In my experience, wetness is the worst for getting the feet soft and set up for bruising and abscesses.

When we have been having wet conditions I notice that out on the trails so many horses appear to be tender-footed.

My farrier tells me to use some hoof oil to help repel the wetness but I think that overuse of those can also soften the foot.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 9:17 am:

Soggy soles are not good. Hank HAS been tolerating the hard ground wonderfully since Nov.

I decided to start giving them supper in the lean-to at night, give the hooves a chance to dry out and his soles a rest from the hard ground.

10 more in. of snow on the way so I don't see it drying up for quite awhile. I am going to give his hooves a thorough exam today to see if there is any major bruising. He is acting quite sore on hard ground, this battle seems to never end
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 11:21 am:

I know what you mean Diane, frozen, hard, wet, soggy...difficult to keep hooves dry and soles firm. Ha. Never ending see saw.

I think feeding in the lean to on straw is a good idea for relief from the wet snow. Perhaps some of moisture will be taken away by the straw? Would it be of any advantage to use Thrushbuster (formalin sp?) to dehydrate the sole some periodically?
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 11:23 am:

I know wet/dry, wet/dry, etc. isn't good for the foot, but neither is wet, wet, wet...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 1:58 pm:

I put TB on his soles twice weekly don't know if it helps or not
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC