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Discussion on I found an interesting 4 point trim video
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 10:10 pm:
I didn't want to put this in Hanks thread, but this is what I have been doing Angie this explains the toe pillars I have been rambling about.
Once I watched this a couple times I now understand why Hanks hooves are changing the way they are. For his type of hoof these toe pillars seem very important to maintain and keep him sound through his transition to a "normal hoof" Now I see why I am getting that square toe...
Now Dr.O. doesn't have to do a video
https://www.nanric.com/four_point_trim_video.asp
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 9:16 am:
Diane,
I gotta be honest with you, my first reaction to what this guy was doing was not POSITIVE! I had to watch it through once, do chores, and watch it again taking notes.
I thought "Holy crap, and people panic over Strasser techniques, and this seems very severe and radical to my mind."
At this time in my learning I agree with:
No heel, no horse...great thing to remember.
The slope of the coronet band should hit the back of the knee.
Moving breakover back, and the "wings" will move the heel (point) back.
I don't care much for his method of carving the sole out at the toe like he did. Or all his cutting on the frog. Of course, there are many factors going on, and he is addressing cracks too.
Unless someone can really explain to me why this is such a fantastic plan, I say this:
Won't we reach the same result beveling the toe constantly while leaving the sole alone? We can bevel back into the "yellow line."
What about collateral groove depth?
What do the structures inside look like? Wouldn't doing the toe the way he does bring the tip of the coffin bone closer to the ground?
No flare there of course, that is a positive!
I shudder to think of someone doing this to their horse's hoofs, and soring the horse. It just looks like a method that could be dangerous in the hands of a novice.
With trimming "Slow is fast, and fast is slow" to get results!
I also don't think this method respects the different ground the horse is on. The end result does maybe.
DrO,
Help me out here? Isn't this the method you talk about on here?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 10:19 am:
HMMM Angie I didn't find it radical at all. He was removing the sole at the toe and it didn't appear to be much, to unload the toe. If you recall Hank has that crack in his toe also from the stretched diseased wl. I don't have the bravery to do that and Hank has that callous there anyway that I will not touch. I think the coffin bone is further back from where he removed that sole right at the toe.
The thing I didn't really like is the "look" of the heel platform, it does look like flare from the front, but the bottom doesn't. I think once the issues are addressed.. stretched WL, cracks, ect. the trim begins to be more "normal".
I think he did say that beveling will do the same thing except slower, I don't remember if that was in the video or an article I read on there.
There is some good info on there, like all trimmers you have to pick and choose what fits your situation. I like the toe pillars as far as Hank is concerned anyway.
Interesting to say the least
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 10:57 am:
Look at this hoof, I snapped this of Flash the beginning of Jan. note this is Hanks mother!
She maintains this trim herself and can walk on ANY type of ground without flinching, she has rock crunchers and does it herself...why can't Hank
Notice her own little bevel at the toe and all around the hoof...sigh. Wish she could do a video
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 11:11 am:
"There is some good info on there, like all trimmers you have to pick and choose what fits your situation."
Amen to that. The key part picking what fits your situation.
"Interesting to say the least"
No argument there either.
I love Flash's hoofs for self trimming hoofs! Maybe if you rename Hank "Speedy" and Sam "Lightening" ???
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 9:11 am:
Thanks for posting the video Diane, it is excellent. I have updated the article and at the same time included a link to the video. Concerning the technique I think it is remarkable the way the feet improved over the 90 day period:- Flares improving without being rasped
- Severe cracks growing out
- Improvement in laminar bruising and seedy toe
- Heels strengthening by shortening and moving backward
Angie we present a traditional trim (by Scott Simpson) and the four point trim in our hoof care area. Of the two I prefer the four point trim, particularly for correcting horn pathology and strengthening the walls and sole. One place I do tend to differ with Dr Redden is I am more aggressive at removing flare and moving breakover back by squaring a toe. I have spoken with Dr Redden about this and he isnists I am weakening the foot by thinning the wall. I don't know, it works for me as I practice it. But I do use his toe beveling technique if I cannot achieve a suitable breakover by rolling the toe and on these pages I often refer to this as a rock and roll trim.
I just went and looked at one of your images of a hoof in profile, the Thrush 2 discussion you posted last Friday of Cody's RF. Judging by your response here you may be surprised that you are already practicing a mild 4 point and if the front edge of breakover is around or less than one inch in front of the point of the frog, I believe Dr Redden would say, that's about right.
DrO
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 9:50 am:
I was also impressed by what I saw in the video. I did not think he was being too aggressive. He was only taking off what needed to be taken off, he did not pare the entire sole and he did not take off wall to make the horse walk on his soles. I also did not see him use nippers, just a rasp and a knife.
Dr. O, I am not sure if you watched the video of the Happy Hoof Gal where she is explaining why you should not rasp from the top down in order to get rid of flares. It does thin out the walls offering less stability.
There is one part where she explains some of the formation of the flares coming from overgrown bars having nowhere to go, so the walls are pushed out creating the flare. Once the bars are under control there is no more reason for the walls to flare. So, logically to me this means that the correction needs to be done from underneath(bars)and the walls need not be involved except for the beveling.
I have watched my trimmer finish off a foot, at most the only place his rasp hits the outside wall is a little more than 1/4" from the bottom of the hoof wall and that is only to finish off the bevel. Even when relieving the quarters his rasp is never perpindicular to the hoof, more of a 45 degree angle away from the horse.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:01 am:
With Hank when the farrier removes the flare from the top his hoof breaks out, maybe it depends on the thickness of the hoof wall.
Since I have been doing it from the bottom his hooves have not broken out for the first time in YEARS.
I like this video and am trying to follow the principals, but am being conservative until I get the hang of it better. Hanks hoof is slowly changing this way. Once we get out of this rock hard ground season I am going to get a little more aggressive with getting his toe back. His "heel platform" is improving along with the flares. He has not gotten sore yet... a miracle in itself
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:26 am:
DrO,
I see what you are saying that "I am practicing a mild 4 point breakover." My concern is especically since you have now added the link to this video to your article, is that a novice trimmer gets going with a hoof knife and sores the heck out of their horses. I am not sure from my cautious point of view that I agree that is a good choice for a link..but..if it's working, I need to try and understand it more. I am here to learn!
I have to wrap my brain around this, and study the article.
Rachelle,
I agree with not rasping from the top. That might make make a hoof look "pretty" but it thins the walls too much.
And I agreed too with the bars needing work to stop pushing the walls out at the quarters. It is always one thing affects another!
Why do I keep thinking "There is more than one way to skin a cat?" (trim a hoof??)
Hmmmm...maybe IF I used the above technique on Tango...maybe this is what my "hoof guru" has been saying...in another way.
Do we have a brain over load icon?!?!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:49 am:
Angie that is weird, as conservative as I am being, I really didn't think that much sole was removed. It looked like he removed the flaky stuff and enough at the point of the toe to reveal the WL problems. Removing those fissures in the WL are important, I found that out with Hank when he got an abscess from Hades from one.
I'm not sure I even make "novice trimmer" yet and I wouldn't consider carving on a sole (which I don't think was done)
Anyone that is considering trimming their own horses should know that much or they shouldn't be doing it.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 11:19 am:
Thanks Diane for posting the link. I should play it in slow motion again and again. To the undereducated like myself, it takes awhile to sink in what he is doing. Comprehension it seems is slow to dawn on me.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 11:27 am:
Bear with me here, but I have a theory. It has to do with shorter feet, concavity, inner wall, toe callous and break over.
1) A shorter more compact foot, eases break over and allows the horse to use more of his foot leading to better foot function. It also raises the coffin bone within the foot leading to less soreness and healthier feet.
2)The toe callous is part of the inner wall and if horses all had perfect feet, very little of the sole would be visible on unloading as the weight bearing surface of the foot would be mostly the inner wall, the frog and as the foot becomes totally weight bearing the bars and a little sole.
Basically, what I am saying is our horses feet need to be much shorter and more compact ( accomplished with backing up the toe to the actual point of break over) The compactness works to keep everything tight and in place in the foot, leading to less flare and better function.
Thats what I saw Dr. Redden, doing in this video, backing up the horses toe to the actual point of break over.
It used to be that I worried because my horses feet never seemed to grow very much between farrier visits. I used all sorts of stuff to get them to grow. Since I stopped worrying about it and got to the understanding that it was a growth versus a wear result and that my horses were done every three weeks thus thats why there was very little growth. I came to the conclusion ( rightly or wrongly) that the reason my horses do not have any foot problems or lameness problems even though they are racehorses is that their feet are at a very high functional level because their form is what it is supposed to be. They both have short compact feet suitable for their size that gives them the ability to break over and get out of their own way with no interference.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 11:39 am:
Vicki, I have read so much on hooves over the years I got more and more confused. I wish I would have found this video earlier when Hank was suffering. I'm way more of a visual person then step by step instructions. Just wait til' I get my big girls rasp!
Rachelle IMHO I think you summed it up well.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 11:58 am:
Ok, I am going to watch and re watch the video. Sometimes my stubborn brain just sees something, and needs to be jolted into seeing again with a more open, less stubborn mindset. ;-).
Well said, Diane; of course anyone can take anything they see and run with it, and come up with something different than was meant.
You've got me thinking! (see, told ya not to refer to me as any hoof guru! You're teaching me as much or more than I've taught you!)
And I think you are past "novice" btw.
Very good explanation Rachelle, maybe I am the one not doing well enough on the break over with Tango anyhow.
As soon as it warms up, new pictures are in order, and a post of my own on Mr. Flared/No-Tight-White-Line!
Too bad we can't all meet together, with hoofs, knifes, and rasps, and exchange ideas and techniques.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 1:43 pm:
Angie, this sort of trim is perfect for horses like Hank and Tango, it unloads the toe nicely and moves breakover back quickly without soreing them up...tho I can't quite bring myself to do that just yet! Relieving the pull of the "flare" it is so simple I even understand it I am doing that just slowly until I feel more comfortable "playing with hooves"
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 2:49 pm:
DrO, Diane, everyone,
I rewatched the video, I think I just for some reason, panicked over the knife action.
And he is using this for "rehab" and then once the hoof is in good form, he's not doing the same methods. Well he is I guess, just not as much.
I think I am doing the same thing, only with the rasp; and; on some hoofs, could do more to get quicker results.
See, this ol' gal can learn a thing or two, HA!
Thanks Everyone for keeping my brain engaged!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:54 pm:
Someone explain what Redden was talking about when he mentions "wings" and the "wings" were not "flares". Seems like he said he "controls" the wings once the foot is in better shape? What does he mean "control"...? Again comprehension is slow even with pictures and watching the video several times...and hitting the pause button many times...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 6:35 am:
Angie as you said there is more than one way to skin a chicken, something we must remember when what we are doing isn't working. This may work well on Tango, it seems to be working on Hank in a modified fashion. Take pics if you try it... I wanna see!
Vicki I don't explain things well as you may have noted in my threads...so will leave that to someone who does
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