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HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Hoof Care, Hoof Trimming, Shoeing Horses » The 4 Point or Natural Trim »

	Discussion on Hoof Critique 10 SOOO in theory
Author	Message
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 1:56 pm: MY last part I promised!, probably will be a long one! Vicki's discussion and after looking at Hanks hooves today after I beveled a bit, makes me wonder once again about that toe callous. Hanks Callous is a protection of sorts I think. SOOOO should a person abide by that callous and leave the hoofwall the same height as it is??? Is it saying it needs that much to protect the sole at THIS point??? OR am I reading to much into it? I tried the barefoot sculptor out today again and I just can't get the hang of it towards the end I was getting better, but I really do prefer that travelers rasp I think! We'll see after a few more sessions with it. The blob is getting smaller and the crack isn't growing any further I did go so far as to show the "yellow" line at the toe today, it really is starting to look much healthier and tighter. I figured I was safe for awhile since we had new snow and much more on the way. I did start work on the right front too. That one has more bruising and he is sorer on that one (more flare). I don't see the flare at his toe anymore??? I think I am going to have the farrier come next week and have him straightened a few things out for me. Flash really needs a trim... and well then there is Sam. I think he will listen to my thoughts on it (I hope). (I change my mind about that daily) Here are todays pics..make note of the blob getting smaller and detaching from the sole The rest well I don't know what to think at this point Any and all comments welcome
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 2:59 pm: Diane forgive me for being ignorant, in the 1st and 2nd picture the quarter wall looks quite a bit longer than the sole--doesn't that stress the laminae? (sp?) The toe horn wall looks long too in places. Is it because of founder/rotation that it is left longer--too much to trim at once? I don't quite understand either how a person rehabs the shape/balance of the foot--the foot is wider on the right side of the picture than the left. Has it flared out on the right side because it's too long or because of the founder/rotation problems or another reason? Remember Diva has no founder and no rotation, so I don't know if what my trimmer said about the toe callous on the sole applies to other hooves...she said toe callous was good but not longer than the wall. ?
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 3:36 pm: You got it Vicki A little of all of the above. I have been trying hard to bring that right side flare in, I really got after it today and tomorrow I am going to work on it some more. I have been scared to bring the wall down to the live sole plane... it has always made him sore... so am trying to do it in small increments, but you are right that will continue to flare the hoof wall.. I really don't like his hooves!!! Since we are suppose to get quite a bit more snow, now may be the time to try it. I bet I have removed a half an inch of wall since starting this The toe wall is not higher than the sole but the callous is...thus my wondering about the callouses purpose...IN HANKS case.. Last spring the farrier pared the callous down to the height of his hoof wall and he was IMMEDIATELY sore. Don't know if I should go by history or not! I guess it boils down to I am chicken to do what I should. This shows the height of his toe wall a little better and the confusing callous.
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 4:06 pm: Reminds of bunions on a human foot. The callous grows to protect the area but winds up making the area stick out more and rub one's shoes more and become more sore. ? Seems like the toe callous should be the tinsiest bit lower than the waterline/wall, but I don't know how far the rotation has to be before that's a bad idea? I'll have to go back and see if the callous was longer than the wall on the rehab horse he was doing. I looked at video on www.hoof-tech.com and it showed the toe callous ridge being a good thing but it should ultimately become longer and longer as it continued around the hoof wall back toward the quarters. Like a bigger U than the little u he has now on the bottom of the foot. ? Hoof tech guy also showed that none of the hoof wall front edge should be touching the ground but be beveled--all the way around or it would promote flaring. Does that coincide with what you have been learning through all of this? And of course the founder and rotation complicates everything as does the weather.
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 4:37 pm: OK Diane, I am uploading two of the 4 pictures you posted . This is a good example of sighting down the foot so you can see if its level. The orange line shows a level hoof wall, anything above that can go. Take a few swipes sight again for level. Picture below: Straight Magenta line appears to look like where the widest part of the hoof is. That a lot of hoof in front of that line and is definitely hindering breakover. Toe between the pillars has to come off. The arrow is showing which way the frog is pointing and this appears to be the case because the apex of the frog seems to be going in that direction too. The heavy blue color is the no go zone and the light purple is the all go zone( or as much as reasonably possible). You can get to a lot of this rasping from the bottom and just rounding smooth (beveling) once you get done. I also can't see the heel point too clearly on the one side, but it looks like it is not as far back as it should be. Sorry for the bad artwork. Art was not a favorite of mine in school. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 4:41 pm: Sounds like you got it Vicki Why does it have to be easier said then done!! Hanks callous actually does go around to the quarters it just isn't as noticeable. I was just out stacking hay and Hank was out walking around quite a bit in the jagged frozen stuff and he didn't look half as bad as he was, there is soft ground for him to walk on he had been refusing to go in the dry lot lately, not today. Maybe the rasping helped him a bit. I guess I still have Sams hospital pen up with thick bedding if I make him worse Stalling hyper Hank is a scary thought tho Here's my plan for tomorrow...if I don't chicken out! Red is rocker/bevel more... Black is taking wall down...leaving a little at the toe pillars. If anyone thinks this is wrong...please say so, still undecided whether to bother that callous tho. It better snow like they say it's going to!
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 4:42 pm: Rachelle, I'm a bit slow. Does the light purple mean all of the outside (pigmented) wall and part of the inside (unpigmented/waterline)wall needs to go? How much inside wall needs to be left to support that stretched white line? Does this go all at once or a little each week?
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 4:52 pm: Thanks Rachelle! We were posting at the same time. I will be brave and give it a go tomorrow. Looks like we have the same idea... what about the callous tho???? Guess it is in the no fly zone so I can leave it alone. This does scare the crap out of me tho!!
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 5:01 pm: Vicki it will take me to the whiteline, at the toe I know it doesn't appear this way, but I am not far from it now. I scratched the surface of it today I have been doing little tweaks as he adjusts since early Dec. (AND it was necessary IMHO because of his pathologies), I think he is to the point of fixing it up or not. Weather bug just started chirping a winter storm warning with 10in of snow so looks like that is going to happen. My as well take advantage of the crap!
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 5:04 pm: You are a brave soul Diane. But of course you know a lot more than me. I'm just getting to the point of comprehension of how the foot works and grows and what it affects when it's out of balance... Rookie.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 5:12 pm: Not brave at all, that's why I haven't done what should be done yet!. Riding season is coming soon and I would really like to have a sound horse for it for once. Vicki you are not anymore a rookie than I am, I just don't have someone to do it foe me! This is NOT something I WANT to tackle, but his hooves have been in poor shape for years and years so it time to at least try something different I guess...keep hooves crossed...If I don't chicken out I need to watch the redden video a couple time tonight!
Member: npo33901	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 5:19 pm: Shouldn't hoof wall be 1/18" above the sole ? Yes, beveled all way around . Good luck Diane and Hank .
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 5:26 pm: Vicki, You can rocker the toe and take down the wall without ever touching the inside hoof wall, you just need a steeper angle on the bevel. This helps the breakover. The outer wall should not be getting loaded and therefore as much of that as reasonably possible can go. Diane, I think you will need to make sure his hoof is level and that might mean having to touch that toe callous a bit. But, if you look at the way Vicki's Diva mare was trimmed, you can see that only a little part of the toe callous, where it was higher that the hoof wall was taken down. The rest of it was left alone. You will have to use your good judgement, when you work on Hanks feet tomorrow. It seemed to me he was doing better, when you were tweaking on a continual basis, so no I do not think I would do this all at once. Rachelle
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 5:29 pm: Vicki, That maintenance trim on the Hoof-tech site is pretty good, thanks for the link. Diane, he tells you about beveling the toe back to the white line on that video. I am awaiting feedback from my Hoof "GURU" as I am struggling with a few things on my troubled ones. Flares, flares and flares and not sure if I am doing all I can do either! See Diane, you are not the only one pounding your head against a wall some days..I just don't know how to put the little animated icon on here!! *~} Rachelle, This picture is from today, Tango's RF...Would you suggest taking the bevel back farther? Or maybe I should say starting it back more towards the white line? Sole shot of same hoof...see, I told ya Diane Tango has hoofs like Hank! He had that toe callous thing like Hank last summer. He is not freshly tweaked in these photos btw, I think bars need work, and heels, along with beveling.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 5:36 pm: You were all busy posting while I was resizing pictures! Hey, Rachelle, great job with the art work! So, what do you see with Tango's hoofs, Diane? When I get feedback on Gems, I'll show you a real challenge get your brain going, lol! Personally, I think right now you and I have to tweak and tweak weekly, and WAIT for the hoof to change. I appreciated the Hoof-tech guy saying he does his hoofs like very week, or every 2 weeks. And it's almost as quick as cleaning the hoofs doing it that way.
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 5:42 pm: Now Angie I'm going to sound really dumb, but bear with me. Should the bars and the heel be taken down to the level of the waterline/inner wall? And is Tango's frog having trouble? Thrush in the recent past? Forgive me if I'm totally confused. I really like the first photo; it illustrates well for me in the front. Should the toe wall be beveled more steeply to the waterline from pillar to pillar? (If I'm remembering what the heck the pillar is...)
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 6:10 pm: Vicki, No, you are not sounding dumb at all! Your question is something that bothers me in fact. See, my "guru" (Strasser trained) is always telling me to "bring the heel point back" and I understand that, I think, yet I also think that sometimes people bring the heel too LOW. I've been guilty of that! And Tango has a more upright shoulder, and I don't think his heels should be so low. AND If you lower the heels too much, and the whatchamacallits, (hubby shared his cold with me, bear with me!) those cartriliges in the heels, are not ready to support the impact of a heel first landing, you get a heel sore horse. I personally don't care to take the heels down til I see the white line, I think they should be smidgon above the sole. At the toe, it's different, to answer Anna's question. I don't think "pillars" but Diane does. I don't think he's had thrush, just jagged winter ground, but he does seem almost ticklish in that front hoof...hmmm...another problem. There is so blasted much to learn! Some days I can't think about Hank or anyone's hoofs!! Arrggghhhh...brain overload! And every time I think I am humming along and doing o.k., one of you come up with a new question! But, by gosh, we are all going to be sooo smart at this hoof stuff given enough time, lol!! Being Diane said this is her last part on Hank's hoofs, I am going to help make it a reeeeaaallly long discusion, (Last part for February...hee hee)
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 7:05 pm: OH a test Very similar to Hanks with less hoof wall, looks like the toe is a little long,unhealthy frog? heels need to come back? So when I went out to feed I took Mr. rasp with me, I put a stronger bevel all around, I tell ya it will take me weeks to get that toe back, but I did get close to the WL. Funny Hank was licking his lips the whole time I was rasping away. (this was before I fed) I started the bevel at the callous, shaved a tiny bit off. Blob is really starting to look better...I may get rid of that yet!!! I kept putting his hooves down and looking and he is still uneven!!!! here's one for you Angie Tell me does it look like his toe flare is better or is it wishful thinking?? Wonder if a hoof critique 10 part 2 would be cheating I am just learning so much, it will be hard to Here we go until tomorrow.. He walked off much better than he has been, still a stutter step here and there on the RF..but I am behind on that one!
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 7:14 pm: Another dumb question. Diane does the length of Hank's heels in the 5th picture you posted in this discussion, prevent his frog from contacting fully with the ground?
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 7:18 pm: And does the flare side of Hanks foot cause that side's heel to become under run/under slung (curving back toward/inward to the frog?) ? Or is not under run but just distorted due to the flare?
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 7:19 pm: Anna Marie Yes I believe the hoof wall should be 1/8 of an inch with the weight bearing being on the inner wall(beveling) to prevent flaring. You have the DVD's help us!
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 7:24 pm: Diane that's what I have read in my hoof mission.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 7:31 pm: Vicki I don't think so, when he walks in the paddock where it is smooth and pretty hard I can see the big frog prints...way more so than Sam or Flashes. Flares contort everything If I ever get his hoof flareless it will be a first in 5 years. The farrier I had before this one said flares were good and that was how they balanced themselves..sigh. This farrier takes them from the top and Hank gets sore and his hooves breakout.... you may never know how this turns out
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 7:33 pm: The pix can be deceiving--flash, shadows, crud on the foot... Can you imagine any farrier saying a flare was good? Brother.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 7:40 pm: Diane, you NEED to get those DVDs too, so you can really get into these discussions, lol! I am watching the hoof tech UTube videos right now...well, o.k., I am typing as it loads, duh. Did you watch the 3 parts? Pretty good stuff, simple and to the point...I like this guy! Hmmmm...ya know, I think I need to do more with Tangos frogs, and perhaps all 16 of them need some attention. I can never get my hoof knife that sharp it seems, but I do have a set of X-tracto (sp?)knifes...ya know those really sharp things? I have trouble doing the sulcus (Ever have one of those days when nothing seemed to look right when you spell it?!) Love the mouth taped shut icon!! Tell me again, how do you get them on your discussions? My computer won't let me use the smiley central, is that where they are from? I still struggle with keeping things even, don't feel like the lone ranger there! And it might look good when I eyeball it, but look horrible when I load the picture on the 'puter!! Still high on the left quarter?? Yup, still workin on backing Tango's breakover back; remember I let EVERYONE get the long toe under run heel mess when I started out and it takes time to get things back where they belong.
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 8:06 pm: I'm still trying to recognize good and bad in pictures...can't even imagine picking up a sharp object and whittling away...
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 8:07 pm: Diane, Hank's sulcus (sp?) looks nice and wide open. that's a good thing, right?
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 8:10 pm: Ah, I probably will stick to my hoof knife. I would like to keep all my fingers and thumbs too! It's been awhile since I sliced myself trimming, so I think I'd like to keep it that way, ha ha!
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 8:18 pm: There is a piece of equipment you gals need to get. It's a wire brush, it gets a lot of the dirt out of the white line so you can actually see what you are doing and where the white line actually is. Angie, here's the deal with the heels, once you can get the toe backed up, the heels will back up as well. Here are my comments on Tango's hoof (RF). This front foot looks more like the way a hind foot is supposed to look ( more long and narrow). It does not have that nice round platter look to it. Tango looks like he could use a rockered toe to ease his breakover. Black dots=Toe pillars Yellow line=breakover point Blue Arrow= The way it appears the frog is leaning=high side Pink line=widest part of hoof=way too far back=flares Green circle=Frog appears to be eroding away. If you could get some of that pointieness off the toe area between the toe pillars. I think Tango would be more comfortable. I did not mark up the other picture, but there appears to be quite a lot you can take off, but that was a very closeup picture and may look different in person. As far as dealing with low heels and heel points. you are right in thinking that taking too much heel is just as bad as not taking enough and you will wind up with a sore heeled horse. But that happens because the toes are too long. A properly proportioned hoof has the angles at the toe and at the heel almost identical. When the hoof is correct the heel points are where they are supposed to be and the heel is almost perpedicular to the ground. The toe is short and there is much concavity to the sole. You will get this result faster by rockering the toe. Just don't go nuts. I am going to try and find a picture of what I am talking about. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 8:41 pm: Vicki I think Hank has a very healthy(water logged) frog, no holes in the suculus. At least he has something healthy!! Do you think his toe still has a flare in the hoof wall... I really want to know!!
Member: kpaint	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 9:27 pm: I have been rereading www.barefoothorse.com the "Wild Horse Trim" which has lots of pictures. Diane, have you read this? And Angie, it shows a rockered toe and I think, how to do it. Rachelle, if you have read the info on that site, do you agree with any of it? Strasser is way too radical for me and my limited knowledge; the barefoot site compares Strasser and Wild Horse trim. I can't tell if Hank's front toe is flared from the picture. I'd have to be lying on the ground looking from the side at his foot and laying a straight edge from coronet to the toe; if there is air between the straight edge and the hoof, there's a flare. My eyes play tricks on me with the multicolors in a hoof and it distorts the hoof somewhat for me...old age?
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 9:39 pm: Vicki I have read everything on the web, I can't even remember it all Yes I have read that site a million times... and counting! Well I guess it's good you can't tell it was quite obvious in my earlier pics One more pic, I was looking at Hanks hoof trying to make a plan. BOY that toe on his LF has a lot going on! I zoomed in on the blob and something else I saw and what a mess. This mess has been covered by his long toe, no wonder he has been lame forever... but what to do and what the heck is this new pearl on his sole, there is so much congestion there between the "old" blob the cracks, the toe callous ect. Black circle old blob Red circle new blob????
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 - 9:49 pm: Can I send Hank to you for awhile??? He's a bit of a nut case... but there isn't a sweeter horse around. Doesn't need to eat much. Don't even need to halter him to work on his hooves...VERY good ground manners. I wouldn't try to ride him tho! He hasn't seen a saddle since late Oct. Send him back when hooves are fixed
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 8:28 am: Rachelle I don't think a wire brush would clean that out.. however what is black IS the stretched WL So you can see how stretched they are by the black areas. Same with Tangos above..his isn't near as bad as Hanks. As a rule tho that black area IS stretched WL. This IS all stretched unhealthy WL... flare, his toe is getting much better... still have to get rid of the rest! That is why his walls appear higher in the pics than they really are on the side that are flared..the left side isn't near as bad as his right.
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 8:59 am: Vicki, Great minds think alike! I was on that site last night trying to find a picture of what I was trying to say about feet trying to be perpendicular. I think I used the wrong word, it's described on the site as being cone shaped, a little narrower on the top than at the bottom. Actually, the front shot taken of Diva's feet are a good example. Short toe, short heel, cone shaped foot. Even though the website says domesticated horses can't get to the same point that a wild horse does naturally, I think that's exactly the ideal we need to strive for. If that means a tight white line, shorter more compact feet, concave soles and no flares. Above all what we really need to strive for is feet that our horses are comfortable and stay sound with. Diane, my comment about needing a wire brush was not meant to replace any of the normal tools you might use, only that if you use a wire brush it's much easier to see the different structures, outer wall, inner wall, white line waterline, yellow( golden line)etc. Because the wire brush is a little bit more abrasive than most normal hoof brushes and it gets into all the crevices a bit better. Rachelle
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 9:45 am: Rachelle, Thanks for marking up Tango's picture. I see what you are saying, the "New" news to me, is the "Pillars" concept. I see it, I just need to think about that when rasping. I end up beveling all the way around, afraid it's too much? I am leary of thinning the walls. I've always heard that backing the toe puts the heels in the right place; my hesitation at this point is similar to what Diane is got with Hank: I sored Tango last summer backing too aggressively, and I don't have the experience to trust myself how much I can bevel/rocker that toe. I know now that beveling is not the same as backing up vertically. Could you show me/us, on the first picture of the toe close up, how much, and what angle, you would bevel that toe? He seems to be comfy and has enough toe callous there now to handle more. (in fact, his lameness I battled for years has been gone in spite of my trimming...pat pat pat) What I've had told to me over and over is back the toe, bevel, and take care of the bars! Then it should become just bevel, take off some toe as needed, ie maintenance trim. Vicki, I've read lots too, watched DVD's and YouTube videos til my eyes are ready to bleed! I take pictures to the barn, enclosed in plastic, to refer back as I am under the horse. And my computer desk, cork board, and file cabinet has more "HOOF STUFF." Not to mention files full of pictures on here! Strasser was doing radical things to hoofs on horses everyone else gave up on. I think most hoof guys out there today have learned from her. The only thing to remember is only do what YOU are comfortable with. I am just ready to see faster results now with Tango and want to see if I can "up the trimming" but he will get that tight white line sooner or later. Diane, I hope the rasp is getting more comfortable for you now.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:17 am: Rachelle that's what I mean I have tried wire brushing his hoof...that stretched WL stays dirty it has the consistencey of an absorbent rubber type stuff. Plus I dump thrush buster on it a couple times a week which stains it dark. When I rasp into the rubbery stuff it all becomes more clear..I may do that today, I'll take a pic if I do. Wet hooves are not helping matters here and seems to make his WL stretch even more?? Hank is still tip toeing on the hard ground this morning BUT his DP's are gone This is already getting long loading...so will need to get the perfect "Hank Hoof" soon I do have an idea of what to do now...just hope it's the right time with the wetness and hard ground (which is getting better). It IS almost March, so now may be the time to get those hooves in better shape... I hope... as in training, timing is essential for this stuff too!
Member: lilo	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:22 am: Hi all - I read this thread faithfully, but my head is a jumble trying to understand what you folks are talking about. I am just thankful that my horses have good feet and my trimmer seems to know what she is doing. It will have to be a lot nicer weather before I can post any pictures. Two horses, very different hooves, and the mare toes in too boot. Anyway - I admire all of you who have the gumption to do their horses hooves! Lilo
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:28 am: OHHH and I did by a small level...now if I can hold his hoof straight
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:38 am: Thanks Lilo, it's an interesting challenge! Easier when you start out with good hoofs! Diane, Not sure how a level will help? I do use a small tape measure to measure outer wall, and a small 6" metal ruler for collateral groove depth. And I have the yellow hoof gauge too, measures toe length and angles. I don't use that much though because I want to train my eyes to see what is good and not good. Now to find that wire brush...
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 11:42 am: HMM I was reviewing the website Vicki posted and I guess I am not imagining things.. Hanks hooves continue to flare quickly after I rasp/bevel him. From the flare section Hooves that live on wet, poorly drained ground, or during a wet season, need much more frequent care than hooves on dry terrain. Here in the Northeast USA, it is a constant struggle to keep hooves from flaring and horses from going unsound. We have to trim every 2 to 3 weeks -- 10 days during the spring -- and renew the mustang roll between trims. Just a few days' overgrowth allows a new flare to form which can make the horse unsound for weeks. The combination of "horse-unfriendly" climate, together with the lack of movement in domestic horses' lives, makes hoof care a major part of the horse's upkeep in this climate. We are starting to recommend walking the horse up to half an hour daily on pavement, to give better concussion. This strengthens the white line by increasing circulation in the hoof. Angie I got a level to see if his hoof is level I can look at it and think it is ok..then look at his pics and I was wrong!! Probably won't work..but it was only $2 so thought I'd give it a try.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 2:56 pm: OK Rachelle, I scrubbed Hanks hoof down with a wire brush. Then I examined it closely and NO I don't want to lower that hoof wall anymore than it is at this time. I think I need to keep beveling to get the flares to keep reducing and they are, especially his toe flare. These horses don't move around alot when there is no pasture and I really have no idea how he would be on pavement or gravel...just that jagged frozen crap that can make the best hooved horse tippy toe a bit. SOOOO on went the halter and up we went the gravel road to the pavement.. I got one interesting picture that show the difference between his left, and the right (a lot of catching up to do!) I should have trusted myself and did both hooves..poor guy. I also took a couple short videos of him walking on the pavement and gravel. The pavement one shows the difference in foot falls between the Left and right....SO for those of you that don't believe a little beveling here and there doesn't help... have a look at these. First the scrubbed hoof pics. On the pavement.. I think his hoof is actually starting to look pretty good.??(the left one that is) The difference between left and right..granted the leg is at different angles but WOW, I didn't realize how much worse the RF was until I got him on the hard level ground. Walking on pavement..he willingly trotted.. I actually lost him once and he just kept trotting down the road...very willingly https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100221RooAndHankWalking#5440780061912603154 https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100221RooAndHankWalking#5440781260447301730 Walking on the gravel drive...he was eyeballing a little grass so wanted to get in the yard..he is a fat hog after all! Actually I was very pleased with his behavior considering the wind is blowing 100mph and he hasn't had a halter on since Nov.! https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100221RooAndHankWalking#5440784590500115298
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 3:23 pm: With my better scrubbed hoof pictures I think it looks like we are getting better with the heels.. a ways to go..but this pic does show his breakover is coming back, and the widest part is getting closer to 50%.. I am glad I did the hoof scrubbing it does make thing clearer!
Member: npo33901	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 5:30 pm: Diane, first, I made a mistake - PR is leaving 1/16 " of hoof wall above the sole plane . Not 1/8" . Just came home, I am tired now to absorb all the science above . If it is help - here is what PR is saying....... Callous is on the distal of the coffin bone and should NEVER be touched/trimmed . Start the break over 1/8" - 1/4" in front of the callous ridge. Than do slight bevel 15 - 20 degrees. Followed by Mustang roll and if there is a flare - rasp bottom 1/3 of the wall ( which we don't like doing !?) . It is very well shown in those DVD's . But do it yourself is very difficult . Another thing he says - Never adjust heels and toes at the same time -. Would you please show/tell me where is the "water line" ?
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 5:31 pm: Diane, What a difference! Left front looks really good, bet you could rocker it a bit more to get it like it was a few weeks back. The RF definitely needs work. You can see the flare all the way around the foot. It has to be uncomfortable for him even though he is not showing it a lot. You can see the hoof wants to grow the right way, but all that flare needs to leave. If you work on it slowly like you did the other one, you should be ok. I know you said you want to have your farrier out to help you. So I have a suggestion. Mark everyone's feet as to where you want him to rasp and tell him not to get carried away! Like they do in a hospital so they don't cut off the wrong leg! Rachelle
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 5:46 pm: Anna-Marie, The bottom 1/3 of the hoof wall is ok to rasp as long as one does'nt go nuts with the raspingand most of it is done to finish the foot taking some of the flare with it when finished. What a lot of farriers do especially when shoeing is rasp from the top down to get the foot to match the shoe. This thins the walls and actually causes more flare and can lead to other things if not caught and stopped. I firmly believe that the reason race horses in general have poor feet is because they are shod very often, their walls are always being thinned and as a result there is no underlying support for the stresses that are put upon them at faster and faster speeds. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 6:02 pm: Rachelle I don't think I even want him to touch the LF..but maybe he could help me get the RF caught up I know it appears he has a lot of hoof wall on LF but he doesn't!!! That's why I decided not to touch it. Anna in Hanks pics it is hard to tell where everything is White line... is his white/yellow line Which I was really surprised how much tighter it looked after a good hoof scrubbing...matter of fact I was shocked! I'm so glad I did that Rachelle! I have never seen his WL that narrow in YEARS! Maybe I am wrong. Black line is the water line.. I think, correct me if I'm wrong. Scroll up to see the same pic without lines on it. I copied this from the barefoot website
Member: kpaint	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 6:31 pm: Anna Marie, go to www.barefoothorse.com and click on the "Hoof Shape" article form the menu on the left and it shows a solar (sole) diagram. The water line is actually "white" and wider (if the foot is healthy) than the "white line" which is actually yellowish in color--and black if it's dirty... the "white line" (really yellow) is tighter, smaller and inside the "water line". The waterline is also called the "inner hoof wall" and is the weight bearing part of "the wall/hoof". The pigmented (colored) part of the hoof wall is the outermost part of the wall--the one we see when the foot is on the ground. When you pick up a front foot, the outer wall should not show--it is beveled so it does not bear weight--the inner wall does--which eases breakover for the horse. Correct me someone if I've got it wrong.
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 6:52 pm: Diane, Excellent Diagram! Hank's RF looks like the diagram with the extension at the toe. His LF looks like the diagram without the extension. I'd like to see a picture of the bottom of that RF. I'll bet there is lots you can do just to ease the breakover. Similar to when you rockered Hanks hoof between the pillars. I tend to agree that one shouldn't do the toe and heel at the same time. Take the toe back, wait a few days and then see where the heel is, if its not back enough, back the toe up more. The heels will eventually fix themselves but only if the toe is kept backed up on a fairly regular basis. Rachelle
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:11 pm: Angie, here is a marked up version of Tango's hoof and where I think you can make some changes. I flipped the picture upside down so it looks like its on the ground( well sort of). The cross hatched yellow lines, is what I think is the stretched white line, everything else in front of it is what I think can go. You may be better off rasping vertically between the pillars just as a start and come back a few days later and see where everything moved to. In this picture, you can still see black pigmented hoof wall, you can rasp off all of the black and some of the white unpigmented wall as long as you stay just in front of the yellow lines in the drawing. I would do it over a period of days, don't do it all at once and then look to see where your heels move to and look to see if your horses foot doesn't start to round out a bit to the point where the widest part of the foot starts to move more forward of where it is.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:37 pm: Diane, Lets see if this helps you help me, help you, hee hee! I tried to do the rockering like Rachelle showed using the pillars you got me thinking about, today on Tango's RF, same hoof Rachelle marked up above. I don't think I got the squared off toe like Redden did? I touched up bars and heels, and refreshed the bevel all around. He ran off happily high stepping, so maybe I did some good! My hoof helper thinks he has metabolic issues...sigh...Diane, would you like a play mate for Hank?! Sounds like Hank II. Would you like me to start Tango's own thread or is this o.k. with you on here? If my helper marks up his hoofs and offers something new or better worded, I will for sure start a new discussion.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:38 pm: I printed some of this out today, I know we've looked at this before. https://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/toe-rocker.html
Member: kpaint	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:45 pm: Angie where is Tango's frog and digital cushion? The new picture makes it look like to my ignorant eyes that he is landing on his bars/heels only? Is there a shadow?
Member: kpaint	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 7:47 pm: Diane is the blob w/ red circle seedy toe?
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 8:11 pm: Rachelle, You were posting Tango's pic with the yellow lines as I was posting what I did today. He moved off fine, but I'll print what you are saying above to study. Thank you! Vicki, sorry about the shadow! I took pictures of 3 of the 4 horses hoofs today and every hoof got a little touched up at the very least. Pictures are a pain in the barn, poor lighting, cold, marker isn't writing, and I can't see what I am getting through the camera lens half the time! 'Nways, I took off frog at the back because it was a mess. Loose flaps, holes, ugh. It is lower than it should be. I meant to put some of Ramey's thrush med in there, and forgot to. I am not sure why it's all chewed up, but I felt I had to clean it up. I HATE cutting on the frog at all, don't seem right to me.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 8:38 pm: When I run out of part 10 you will have to start a thread so I can post on it It appears that Tango has an even longer toe than Hank..at this point? I have more wiggle room tho because Hank has a thick hoof wall at the toe.. Beveling strong between the toe pillars does leave a bit of a square appearance, which you can see in one of my other parts 7 I think But when I finally got a little more comfortable with the rasp I rounded it up as does Redden. I like the toe pillars, as a very novice person it gives me some landmarks and know where to be a little more careful. Vicki the blob is not seedy toe, it is basically dead lamanaie from his chronic founder. (I guess in a way that's seedy toe) I suppose the difference would be seedy toe is basically thrush and can be treated.. the blob is not thrush. Dr.O. explained it a little in the part about the blob, and also what I read about it. He stated "it can be hard to get rid of..but we'll see what happens"... so I guess it's possible... but not probable! It is remodeling, so we'll have to wait until the crack associated with it grows out and maybe the blob will be gone!
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 - 10:56 pm: Dr.O. do you have any idea what this stuff that looks like pearls and goo is at Hanks toe???
Member: npo33901	Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 1:32 am: Vicky, thanks for the site - excellent . There is so much to read and learn.....I didn't even know, the W/L goes all the way to the frog . The wire brush - can be bought in a hardware store . Is very handy - cleans the sole when dry or wet very nicely . I wish I could by the knowledge and skill as quickly as the W.brush !
Member: npo33901	Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 1:44 am: Angie , excuse me, would you please tell me what is "backing the toes "?
Member: kpaint	Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 7:17 am: Anna-Marie, Look at Diane's diagram above. The toe portion outlined with the broken line...when that is removed that is called "backing the toe up." The toe is no longer triangular but beveled/mustrang rolled and is shorter. I'm in the process of "backing up" my mare's toes bit by bit over the next several months. Well, I'm not doing anything. The trimmer is. At least, that's how I interpret it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 8:55 am: What I call backing the toe is taking off vertically at the toe. NOT from underneath. I rasp vertically with the hoof right side up on the stand, then turn the hoof over and bevel. The bevel does somewhat shorten from underneath but in a good way which takes pressure off the outer wall and stimulates the inner wall. When we say "shorter" we have to be careful as in what we want "shorter." Toe length or toe height. When I shortened too much from the bottom, I had a sore horse. Does that make sense? Diane, Got it with the postings, lol! My hoof helper said my toe rocker was o.k., but still thinks bars need work...which I don't see. Where is that magic wand or fairy dust to make this easier?!
Member: kpaint	Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 11:23 am: So Angie, "backing up" is the vertical movement of the rasp perpendicular to the outside toe of the hoof wall, when the hoof is placed sole down on a hoof stand (or on your leg)? Right? And then turn the foot over, sole side up, and bevel, from the sole side (underneath), the foot on the outer wall (and perhaps further and go into the waterline/inner wall in some cases?) until you have a smooth bevel/mustang roll? And the degree of the roll depends upon the horse/hoof/severity of problem? Still not comprehending toe length and toe height just yet. Is it... Toe Length should be the amount of vertical area of the toe wall growing longer than the sole, right? (A mental image for me is a toe so long that the sole is lifted too far off the ground (like in shoes) and the weight of the horse is borne by the outside wall and very little weight is taken by the sole, frog, digital cushion, and bars? And then if this toe wall is not trimmed, it will eventually result in a forward toe flare?) Or am I still confusing it? And toe height addresses the vertical measurement of a toe which would include the degree of bevel? Thanks Diane for letting me hijack your discussion. You get another one for sure.
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Monday, Feb 22, 2010 - 5:13 pm: The light areas appear to be areas that reflect a lot of light but I don't know what they are. The two circled areas are defects in the horn. The black one is associated with a crack in the wall and the red one a defect at the white line. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 12:18 am: Well what a mess huh?? The farrier is coming Thurs. to do the other horses, I'll see what he thinks. I'm sure he'll have no idea. I have only been doing Hanks hoof from the bottom, his toe appears to be coming back..especially if you compare it to the right.. so do you need to do anything from the top?? That's where the farrier always rasps after he nips off the hoof wall and the results haven't been that great.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 7:27 am: Diane, When you say from the bottom, are laying the rasp flat across the bottom and rasping his toe? I don't think you are. I don't see anything wrong with rasping that toe flare from the top; but it depends on what he does besides that. Watch what order he does the hoof. Here's how I do my mine; right or wrong! I clean the hoof of course, sight for levelness, and look see how much the wall and flares are above the sole. I rasp at the toe, flat across, maybe 2 - 3 swipes to cleanit up. Remember, this is doing hoofs, every 2-3 weeks! If I touch sole, I quit. If I see the white(yellow) line, or the black dots (Redden video) I quit. I rasp our straight at the quarters to bring them down, or use my knife to bring them lower. I rasp the heels following the angle of the collaterol grooves/frog. Take some off bars if needed. Bring the hoof forward, feel for flares, and lay rasp on the hoof wall to see if it touches from coronet to the end of the hoof all the way around. I rasp following the angle of the hoof wall to take off high spots UNLESS I know the outer wall is extremely thin...I don't do the toe vertically if there isn't wall in front of the white line. Just bevel there. Only the lower hoof wall gets rasping outer wall. Then I bevel all around, sight for levelness, and bring the hoof fw again just to smooth off and finish it. IF your trimmer don't back to much vertically at the toe, I don't think anyone should get sore. Keys are sticking! Gotta run, daughter is ready early...yikes!
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 7:52 am: He backs everything vertically from the top, I've never seen him rasp at the bottom, just the nippers for removing hoof wall, altho I don't let him use the nippers on Hank anymore. Sam and Flash don't get sore, but I think that may be another story with Sam now. My other computer died and I think I lost all my pics...even tho I had them backed up, my external hard drive is being Wacky and won't work right! I may have to import my son from Co. to help me!!! My other computer will still run but I don't know how to get them to this puter...anyone know???? It won't let me burn CD's
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 7:54 am: PS windows 7 is weird!
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 8:41 am: Oh no, nothing worse than loosing everything! I hope you can get pictures right after he's done with the horses; and get them on here. And yup, you could start a new discussion any time now, hint hint ;-). Maybe a new, upbeat title? Diane's Trimming Journey? (sheesh, I could do 3 years of "Angie's Trimming Journey" but DrO would have zillions of pictures, lol!)
Member: stek	Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 11:04 am: Diane I do 99% of my rasping from the bottom, even when backing the toe, mostly because I don't have a hoof stand. Then at the very end I take the horse's foot forward onto my knee and with the fine side of the rasp do a very slight smoothing of the edge of the toe where it meets the ground.
Member: npo33901	Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 5:17 pm: Thanks Angie - toe backing.. Why do you rasp verticaly from the top ? From the bottom one can see WHERE is the WL and stop . As from the top one cannot see anything....beginner (me) wouldn't know where to stop.
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 6:57 am: I'll take pictures after they are trimmed, I hope it works out ok, and Hank don't wind up back in shoes. I'm going to show him what I have been doing to the LF, and since it is working maybe he will not think I'm crazy.
Member: kpaint	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 7:39 am: Good luck Diane.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 9:18 am: Anna-Marie, You can rasp off the outer wall from the bottom and I do. Look at your wall thickness at the heels, and use that as a guideline for what the thickness should be all around. I sometimes do back hoofs totally on the stand, just dragging the rasp up while holding it vertically. If you know you have alot of toe length (distance from coronet band to end of toe wall) you can rasp it back vertically easier with the hoof brought forward. As you rasp, the hoof will start sticking to the rasp as you hit the inner part of the wall, and you need to stop then. And it easier to touch up flares from the top; but some barefoot trimmers don't like any rasping on the outer wall even in the lower 3rd of the hoof. Does that make sense and answer your question? I am sleep deprived and not sure if I am making sense! Diane, Don't you DARE put shoes back on Hank after all we've been through!!
Member: npo33901	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 3:19 pm: very well , Angie - I understand . I only have Riders Rasp . Both horses need wall reduction - I find it difficult to reduce - hardly anything comes off . Diane - hope Hank will stay shoeless .
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 4:17 pm: I thought it was tough enough to use a rasp to trim with out ever using a nippers; don't know how anyone can expect to trim with just the riders rasp. It seems pretty limiting to me.
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 5:34 pm: and harmless
Member: vickiann	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 8:14 pm: Hope that things are going okay with Hank, Diane. Those were really interesting pictures and appreciated seeing them and having Dr. O's comments. So helpful with the learning process. I hope that you didn't lose your photo archives!
Member: gramsey1	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 9:22 pm: Diane, I wonder if you have a copy of KC La Pierres book "The Chosen Road". You last post sent me to chapter 6. Creating the Spectrum of Usability. Really important part of the thought process. If you have not read this book, I think, based on the content of this thread, you need to get a copy. By the way, I think you are very brave and very coool. I don't think your Hank will end up in shoes, perhaps Perfect Hoof Wear.
Member: kpaint	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 9:59 pm: Found it at the www.horseshoof.com for $35.00 if you're looking for a copy. Amazon it was 50 bucks used...95 new. ?
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 11:05 pm: Guy you have peaked my curiosity Could you give me a hint of what part 6 is about...does it have a blob and weird whiteline in it?. BTW thank you for the compliment I'm glad people don't get mad at my ramblings hooves like Hanks are rather intriguing! I don't know if they are "fixable" tho. Dr.O. once again you are probably going to think I'm a little nuts, but I want to show you how these "pearls" "gooy looking stuff" have come to be recently, and hope maybe you can shed some light on them. I was able to retrieve all my pics after 500 hrs. of trying and 10 hrs. on the phone with son!!! OH BOY even paint is different in windows7...more to learn. Anyway the black line is where there was a sort of false white line, It was like it took a detour from where the blob crossed over to the sole (which is the red line). The blob is now NOT attached to the sole(It has been there for 3 years) so now it is like the WL (the gooey, pearly stuff) doesn't know where to go OR is trying to realign itself..I know strange but that's how it appears...is that even possible??? The 2 red straight lines are where the "blob" is now. The callous makes it hard to tell for sure. I do know the "blob" is not attached to the sole any longer and that is when all this weird stuff started happening. IF this is the case is that good of bad??? Without my art work
Member: npo33901	Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 5:16 am: Guy - you are right in all you've said!!! I was wondering about KC La PIERE . I did't want any more confusions..... glad you've brought it up . Boots might be solution, Diane . !!! Following your progress - good luck and strength (mental). Ordered rasp already - waiting .
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 7:12 am: Boots are not a solution for Hank, unless there are some here that will fit him, I WILL not buy anymore as I said before his hoof changes too much and I have way too much money stuck in boots that don't fit already. I will not put them on him for turnout either they turned his hoof to mush last time I had to use them, he got terrible thrush and WLD. The farrier coming does scare me a bit, I am going to have him be fairly conservative with Hank and Sam..the snow storm missed us and we got the very cold weather back with the peaked hard ground, Hank and Sam seem to be doing pretty good on it right now. I actually saw the mare tippy toe for the first time yesterday...her hoof walls are really long now tho. Hopefully he can get them all going in the right direction without soring them up and I can maintain them. I have gotten a start on Hanks RF and it is coming a long. AND guys I think we are going to make it through the winter (that has been quite hard and peaked) without any severe, crippling bruising) this really is a first for Hank in years, and why he ends up in shoes in the spring.... that is why the farrier visit is making me nervous! He is coming at 4 this afternoon if I can get pics before dark I will...keep hooves crossed Hank (and Sam) don't get sore
Member: gramsey1	Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 10:49 am: Perfect Hoof wear are not boots. They are a composite overlay. They provide a measure of protection while allowing normal flexing of the hoof structure. It theory this will allow use of the horse while still allowing the hoof to develop properly. https://www.appliedequinepodiatry.org/perfecthoofwear/index.html#HowItWorks The Spectrum of Usability is an attempt to measure the service attributes of your horse's hoof. Then consider the proper course of action in the context of the demands you will place on the animal. A shoe does increase the Usability Index, but it inhibits development of the internal structures (This is the theory anyway).
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 7:19 pm: Guy, I have used Perfect Hoofwear alone and in conjunction with a glued on shoe. It has worked well for me in some situations, but not in others. I have recommended it on Horse Advice on other threads and there is a thread on my racemare and the finding of my accidental solution to keeping my HPT Trim and needing shoes to race with. I do think they would help Hank, they have recently come out with a new version, that no longer uses any glue, but uses surgical steel screws to stay on. This newer version solves one of the problems I had with the original Hoofwear, in that it no longer requires wrapping over the heel bulbs. The surgical screws keep it lower on the heel so it does not rub. Diane, this product is breathable, molds to the horses foot and in the right conditions will stay on for several weeks (no abrasive surfaces). It goes on like vet wrap and protects a good part of the sole without putting pressure on it. It's a little tricky to time it just right and to get it to mold properly requires a styrofoam pad. But in general they are easy to apply. That said, I think you are doing fine. Hank is (knock on wood) sound and I think you will be ok for this riding season as long as you go slow and don't ask too much too soon( which I know you won't.) Rachelle
Member: gramsey1	Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 8:27 pm: I agree, Diane is really helping Hank.
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 9:00 pm: Well the farrier was running late and didn't get here until 5. I'm not sure what to think, but there is improvement. It was just about dark when he left and my pics turned out bad I checked to see if Hank or sam had any pulses this morning and right before the farrier came..they had none and were moving well... the ground was semi-soft... tomorrow will tell the tale as it is suppose to get down to zero. Farrier said Hank had no bruising and his WL was tighter in his LF and he could definitely see the difference. His Hoof wall was really long on the RF so I let him use the nippers today he would have been rasping until midnight otherwise that's why I couldn't "catch up" and thought it a good idea to have him. He said to keep beveling and call him when I need him He really is a nice guy. Sam had some bruising in his WL front and back from his recent problems, we stayed semi-conservative with him as he is just recovered, but looks MUCH better. Here are a couple pics of Hanks LF... tomorrow I will scrub them and get some good pics..I couldn't tell anything about the blob ect....too dark. Since I have been granted one more part I will post them under something else since this is so slow loading... I can't wait to see them myself
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 9:17 pm: Guy the spectrum of usability sounds very interesting, I may have to look into it. I am hoping if I can keep the bruising away this winter (which is almost over I hope) and keep his weight under control, he will be able to remain barefoot with no protection. Between his hooves, and his weird fetlock last year I haven't been able to ride him regularly for a few years...even with shoes... we are on the last lap I think!!!! So if I get no bruising and he can remain usable barefoot I will have 2 Hank hoof miracles and can finally shut-up! Edited to add... I can finally shut-up about this...but something else is bound to go wrong!
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 8:05 am: Only one horse out pacing for breakfast on the hard ground...Flash. I will update Sam's thread so as not to confuse Hank and Sam. Hank did come out of the lean-to when I tried to lure him with hay for a few paces when I went in, but headed right back for the soft bedding....sigh. I hope I get home early enough to get pics, I have a feeling the boys are on their soles again. I guess on a good note I only felt some faint DP's.

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