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  Discussion on The farriers trim...Hoof Critque 11 :-(
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Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 4:41 pm:

Well all these pictures should wipe #11 pretty quickly

Again don't know what to think for sure

These are left front..the one I have been working on and is actually a little more complicated hoof..farrier agreed. He did not use the nippers on this hoof..said I already had him pretty short He did pare his callous down, trimmed his frog and bars up a bit. Here is what I don't understand!!!!! WHY does Hank end up on his sole at the toe when the farrier bevels it, this is where he always gets himself in trouble with this guy!!!! I hope someone can explain this to me so I can get him to quit it! His Blob is looking much better.





These you can see he is on his sole at the toe





Front view



Side



And the dreaded blob

Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 4:59 pm:

Right Front..only took a couple pics.. this one got nippered pretty good!





On sole at toe??

Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:06 pm:

I only took 2 of Sams if someone would like more I can take more... he has a much nicer hoof than Hank, seems he has a thick sole and some concavity.

Hank is SOOO flat footed!

Sams.... didn't turn out real well, farrier very rarely leaves Sam sore and I don't believe he is now in the fronts...his backs need more work. He seemed much better this afternoon... the ground was semi-thawed.


Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:21 pm:

Here's my thoughts on it:

I would bevel the toe like I tried to show with the red lines, and scoop out the quarters-yellow spots-a tad.



And bar work

Maybe it's just me, but did he round off the outer hoof wall all around and NOT bevel the outer wall from underneath? It almost looks like that's what he did. Like he took the flares off the outer wall, and then did the hoof in preparation for shoeing?

Maybe it's just because Hank has so much flaring at the lower 3rd of his hoof yet that it's strange looking to me.

I think I'd bevel that blob right off by now.

How is he doing since the trim?

I am anxious to hear what others think..cabin fever is really getting to me lately! The wind is driving me nuts and I am not sure my thoughts are coherent, lol!!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:21 pm:

Diane,

When I saw the first set of pictures last night, I said, uh oh. Hank is going to be sore. I wasn't sure about Sam but now we know. And you were so upbeat and positive that I didn't want to burst your bubble.

The first thing I saw was that there was no bevel at all. He put a field trim on him and took the toe off vertically from the top to make it appear that he was beveled. I noticed this in some of the very early Hank pictures. Doing it this way does not relieve the pressure at the toe. Add to this that he took the toe callous off and voila you have a sore Hank.

The second set of pictures ( todays posts). You can see the sole sticking up above the wall and no bevel making him land right on his sole. Not having the foot beveled actually adds that extension to the toe that we are all trying to get rid of. Just because the toe looks shorter does not necessarily mean it was done the right way.

Hopefully, Hank will take care of himself and will not venture out on the hard ground until it softens up and hopefully too you will not have to spend more money on bedding.

Give him a few days and then try to get his bevel back to where it was and Hank will be ok.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:22 pm:

Whoa, you were busy adding pictures, hold on, I gotta catch up, lol!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:27 pm:

Hanks flipped hoof...does this look right??? will not he be landing on his sole?

Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:29 pm:

Ah good, Rachelle beat me to a long and correct explanation..I agree 110% with her assessment.

Post 6085, 2nd picture, same thing as my marked up picture above shows. See those high spots? Hoof flare and most likely from bars not done correctly and I don' think he lowered the wall at the quarter enough.

Don't fret it's easily fixed, but for me, one of the most difficult things to grasp, I still struggle with those bars and heels!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:35 pm:

Rachelle Exactly how he trimmed him, sounds like you were right here watching...NO bevel...flat pasture trim.. he did no rasping from the bottom all from the top. I asked him if he could bevel from the top and he said yes...I still don't think he knows what a bevel is.

Just sent hubby after some bedding... until I can get that sole off the ground I have to prevent bruising..OR ELSE!


Angie at this point I am not going to do anything.
I don't think....sigh...I may run the riders rasp around a little, but he needs what he has now I think ?
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:37 pm:

He probably will be landing on his sole. That's o.k. if he's built up his sole there. Painful if not. MORE painful if the toe isn't beveled correctly. I would bet the painful part is from the toe being left level at the wall because he's been building that toe callous up, and that's good.

He can also be in pain from the flares at his quarters, or if a tad of the bar is left too long..that's the tricky part.

All areas have to be addressed, very tiny adjustments at this point methinks.

Have you got all parts read now on this discussion? LOL!! We're all typing at once!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:40 pm:

Diane, yes, use your riders rasp on him at least at the toe. I would do that as a compromise at this point. You can't put the toe wall height back yet you can offer relief a bit with the riders rasp.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:43 pm:

I'm catching up. I don't think it is his flares he has had them all along...it's the sole on the ground... I guess the good news is I can easily keep them beveled now and maintain... His LF actually looks better than the right front at this point...other than the soles on the ground..the flares are coming in much nicer on the LF I think.... Now I have to rethink my strategy. I told him to leave the callous, that Hank needed them now and he agreed...then wacked them off!!! That boy can grow a callous overnight tho, so hopefully he will rebuild it if it is needed.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:45 pm:

We could use an instant chat room about now!!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:46 pm:

Question: How long are you going to keep paying this guy to keep trimming this way?
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:51 pm:

I think toe flares and heel flares are the most painful..doesn't it seem they chip off in quarter flared areas? Because that is the "flex" part of the hoof maybe?

Quarter flares are caused by bar pressure is my understanding of that. And I don't think your trimmer understands bars any better than he understands beveling! (I get the beveling, still struggle with bars a bit!)
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:52 pm:

Until I can do it I'm headed out to feed will see if he is willing to come out of the lean-to. When i went out to take pics he stayed in there, but according to the mud on his hooves he was out and about at some point.
Member:
stek

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 5:52 pm:

Diane I would say it's pretty clear this guy doesn't know what a bevel is....

Seems like he was trying to take toe height off (from the ground up) instead of leaving the wall at the toe to bear some weight and beveling it back to allow breakover .. ?

(You do take great hoof pics by the way!)
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 6:12 pm:

You've got mud?! You must not have the 20 - 30 mph NORTH winds. With the wind chill to match!

Wanna come feed my horses? Didn't think so, sigh, time to bundle up; I guess they won't feed themselves, huh?
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 6:56 pm:

Diane, if I win the lottery tomorrow, I'm going to buy some of my trimmer's time and bring her to you and Hank.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 7:58 pm:

Diane,

Time to find that tearing-out-your-hair icon.

If I knew how, I would put one here.

You are a much better farrier than your "farrier."
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 8:41 pm:

Well I think Sam is OK When I went out to clean the lean-to, he went out on the hardest jagged ground in the whole pasture...rolled...jumped up and squealed ...took off cantering YEA. Sam is not on his soles like Hank either, I will have no problems now keeping him beveled.

Hank isn't horrible, he has a bit of that stiff legged walk. He couldn't stand Sam being away from him and joined him on the hard jagged ground, he didn't look too bad, but I think we need to avoid that now or the bruising will begin...locked that part of the pasture off...Hank and Sam trotted in on it for supper...Sam looked really good, Hank didn't.

We have semi-soft ground when the sun hits it during the day, just enough to make the top part of the ground a little muddy and soft enough for Hank. At night is when it gets frozen hard and jagged... not a good combination...wet all day, hard at night.

I think one of the most important things I have learned along this LONG journey is how Hank ends up on his sole all the time. I had no want to learn about hooves or do anything to them.. To tell you the truth I don't have the energy to do them, walking in snow all day kicks my butt, and I am glad to do nothing on the weekends.

When the farrier was done with Hank through the years I always thought his toe looked good, but couldn't figure out why he was on his sole all the time and sore....really I couldn't quite comprehend it all until these hoof critique threads... I have learned SOOOO much...thank you.

These pics tell the whole story don't they?

especially this one



It is time for me to try to take over their trimming I guess, and if I keep after them now I should be able to do it with just a rasp, will learn how to use a knife for the bars Angie The RF bars really look bad, I think I was getting a handle on the LF's

Now I need to get Hank through the next couple weeks without bruising and hopefully we will be good to go.

Angie, the blob can not be rasped out, I don't know if it will ever go away.. it IS getting smaller and as you can see from my pic from the front the crack is getting better...MAYBE when the crack is grown out there may be undamaged lamanaie there, one can hope.

Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 11:22 pm:

Diane,

You and your efforts with your horses' feet are an inspiration!

And love those icons . . .
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 7:43 am:

Diane,

Let me offer you some encouragement to start your day.

Every one's hoofs are now freshly trimmed, correct? Not the worst trim in the world, actually good IMO, except for the beveling. And you can bevel those hoofs! If, as of today, February 27th, 2010, you take charge of their trimming, you will have it pretty easy from here on out. (o.k., maybe easy isn't the correct word, but you shouldn't need a lot of TIME on each hoof)

WHY?

Because if you just keep the mustang roll on those hoofs, and keep on eye on the bars, you only need a few minutes every 2 weeks or so to do your MAIN TAIN NANCE trim!

I would say clear the slate at this point. Take many many NEW pictures(need some whole horse pictures too, and lay on the ground and take from front and rear of hoofs) and label them well with hoof, date, and name of horse. If you are using Picasso, use the text feature before you post on here for sure and label the pictures. It saves time so we don't have to reread the text within in the post to refer back to a hoof picture.

Make separate folders on your computer for each horse for your new starting point.

It wouldn't hurt to take measurements either if you like numbers for a reference. Toe length, hoof angle, col groove depth...I think the CG depth is the most important at this point. I don't go nuts over those things myself because if it looks right, the measurements are right. If the angle looks wrong, it most likely wrong!

Happy Hoofs!

(I think I should follow my own advice; I've got 3 years worth of hoof pictures on here! Time to use the DELETE button!)
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 8:29 am:

Angie I have to think this trim on Hank anyway is not good.... 2 horses out pacing this morning for breakfast The 2 old ones

Hank is sore in all 4 it appears and he isn't coming out of that lean-to for anything... which is good I guess. All 4 DP's are raised and even on the $1000 worth of bedding he doesn't look real good....see this is where the shoes always come in because he gets worse and worse and I don't know what to do. Don't worry I am not thinking about putting shoes on him

But now I am not sure what to do, I will have to see if the boots I bought for Sam will fit him, OR should I just lock his butt up??? Unlike Sam this guy is a big baby about pain and I don't think he will come out unless the ground is soft. Our forecast is for above freezing this week so it will be soft during the day and froze at night, actually the paddock isn't too bad even when froze. It is smooth and has a little give to it.

I don't think at this point a bevel or anything will help him, only getting the soles off the ground I'm afraid
At least Sam is OK didn't want to go back to square one with him, tho I don't think hard ground was the problem with him to begin with. He has no DP's and is moving good on the hard ground

Hank =
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 9:49 am:

Diane,

I am not sure how to word what I am going to say, but I really have to be brutally honest here. I started thinking about the whole Hank thread from the beginning until now and how every time Hank used to get sore, on went the shoes, even though you have seen that Hank does well with no shoes. I know you are trying to prevent the bruising, but I do not think that the shoes, unless you glue them on are going to do a whole hell of a lot for the health of Hank's feet. Maybe this is what your farrier wants. If every time before you've called him to put shoes on Hank, maybe he figures its more money in his pocket to put the shoes on. Doing trims especially bad ones doesn't pay much money. My other thought is why would you want this guy to put shoes on when he can't even trim properly. I have better places to put my money than paying someone( even if he is nice) that doesn't know what he's doing. ( OK I've said my piece).

Here is what I would do:

I also know you want to get him off his soles, so. Earlier in one of these threads Guy Ramsey and I were discussing Perfect Hoof Wear and I said it goes on like vet wrap.

If you have vet wrap, just use the vet wrap around his hoofs use a whole roll on each foot. This will get him off his soles and give him some relief and see what he does. Put the vet wrap on tight, start at the heel and wrap so that half the width of the vet wrap goes on the bottom an half goes up the wall, wrap a few times around one way and cross the hoof and go the other way, so it criss crosses on the bottom. Put a small slit in between his heel bulbs so his pasterns do not get corded. Take a small piece of duct tape and put it at the toe of each foot (May give a little more wear, because its the toe that usually wears through first). I would tell you to bevel that toe just to round it a bit before you put the vet wrap on and that may give a little more wear and relief as well.
It will also let Hank's hoof breath and keep it relatively dry even if he goes out in the mud.

Do not put anything else on his foot, only the vet wrap.

Rachelle
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 9:52 am:

Well, Diane - as always, all I can do is wish you the best of luck, and hope that this is a very temporary setback for Hank.

All the best,
Lilo
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 10:33 am:

I agree with Rachelle (as usual) you need to make Hank comfortable for now, and just wait for him to grow the correct hoof. I would also bevel him a bit, and do something for protection. I vet wrapped and duct taped foam on Tango's hoofs last summer PLUS made him a teeny tiny pen on all sand. Yup, he was uncomfortable, and I cursed my own stupidity and said I'd put him in the ground if he didn't recover..but within days he was comfortable again, and Hank will be too.

I know OH HOW I KNOW you just want to wrap him in bubble wrap about now, and you don't think you should touch his hoofs at all, but you SHOULD bevel that outer wall. You HAVE to bevel that outer wall just a smidgeon and wrap his hoofies up.

THEN, when he's comfortable again, retouch the bevel up, and tweak those bars.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 10:47 am:

Rachelle, I love brutally honest, I live by it Hank isn't going to get shoes on, I agree he really doesn't even put shoes on well. I HAVE learned. BEFORE all these threads I didn't know how else to handle this... I knew this was going to happen it always does That's why I was arguing with myself about having him...but his right hoof had gotten beyond my skill level... I was starting to be happy about his LF. So now I can take over I think, once we get over this initial problem. The timing was right for this, Hank has no initiative to move, no pasture, and I am feeding him in the lean-to.He can move if he wants, Hank does take care of Hank unless there is some food motive..that trumps everything!!!

Full moon last night (or close) and before I went to bed I could see 2 horses out in the pasture pawing for grass...Hank wasn't one of them. I knew then that this morning he was going to be pretty sore and was right. I think he is going to take care of himself until he feels better, I haven't seen him out yet today... the ground is still hard...I bet he will come out when the ground thaws a little. I think that is OK he still needs to move some I think.

Usually this makes me start thinking shoes....not anymore... I am confident he will get over this and I can hopefully continue to improve his hoof form and we will have a barefoot (sound) summer Haven't made it through a summer barefoot for quite a few years..actually it's been about 7 I think.

I hope I can build a little concavity to his flat soles they leave little room for mistakes and why I stay on the conservative side.... time will tell as always
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 11:19 am:

Diane,

What can I say, I am so very proud of you.!

Rachelle
Member:
stek

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 1:22 pm:

Diane even if you wanted to put shoes on I wonder if you'd have enough to nail to ;)

Considering Hank's history I'd probably lock his butt up till he gets a little better. You don't want him to feel like he has to keep up with the other two and end up getting bruised.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 1:38 pm:

On a final note since I am out parts (still wish we had pages) I hope anyone following this thread that have a horse like Hank or even a "normal" horse have learned right along with me. Unfortunately there are many farriers AND barefoot trimmers out there that need to read this thread also! This last part should bring that home.



As you all know I am not against shoes, but do feel barefoot is better. If Hank with all his problems... and he has/had just about everything wrong with a hoof that can go wrong can make it through barefoot almost any horse should be able to....eventually

People scrutinize your horses hooves, I think a lot of undiagnosed lameness stem from the hoof...or at least can exuberate them or bring them on. Poor hoof form will catch up with you sooner or later

No hoof, no horse No one knows that better than me!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 2:11 pm:

Diane,

I know that I have learned a lot through your sharing of these experiences.

Given rough conditions, I too might be inclined to keep Hank in, and if he is favoring anything would consider a bit of Bute for two or 3 days to help keep laminitis away.

Good luck and hope he is better soon.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 3:28 pm:

Thanks I just went out and Hank is rambling around a bit in the paddock, I looked at his hooves and boy with in 36 hrs. he has already started bruising. It is actually quite striking. I took a pic, but it doesn't do it justice. he did have some minor bruising before his trim, but nothing like this...yes lock up may be called for after I saw this. Surprisingly he isn't really moving too badly so I do wonder if it is necessary? He is staying in when the ground is hard.??? Maybe night lock up when it is froze would do?? I'm not sure.

Wonder why his frog looks even more crooked?



Member:
kpaint

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 3:38 pm:

D, if it was me in my shrieking paranoia, I'd have him confined on deep bedding for a few days and bute for the anti-inflammatory properties!
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 9:54 pm:

This is a question I've been struggling with, so am hoping Angie, Rachelle, Nancy, Shannon, Diane (who did I forget?) will tell me what you think: In regard to the heels, do you take them down to the live sole plane? This appears different than the inverted V shape. In moving the heels back to the widest part of the frog, I often take the heels down to the live sole which leaves a flat shinny heel without the obvious hollow in the middle of the V formed by the bars and wall. Now I'm questioning this and don't know what I should be doing. Looking through my Pete Ramey books and Jamie Jackson's, I'm still puzzled. I don't know if I should be leaving some hoof wall above the sole plane or not???
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 10:31 pm:

Really? HMMMM interesting and good question, I thought you should leave hoof wall an 1/16 th of an inch all around then bevel. I'm still trying to figure out getting the toe and heels back!

The horse shouldn't be fully weight bearing on their soles anywhere should they??

Does it make your horse sore at all when you do this? Something about it must bother you or you wouldn't ask?

I'll be interested in the ans also, I have been kind of leary of lowering Hanks wall at the heel.

Here is an excerpt from one of Rameys sites

Trimming Mistakes

Sometimes, for various reasons, people just think its okay to raise the heels on a horse. Don't second guess the live sole. It is a window to the inner structures and will show you the heel height the individual horse needs at a given time. If someone has been simply leaving the heels too high, the sole will show you exactly what the horse needs. Simply exfoliate any dead sole and lower the heels until they are 1/16 inch longer than the live sole. (Please read "Heel Height: The deciding factor at www.hoofrehab.com for exceptions to this)
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 11:04 pm:

Thanks Diane. No, I've never had trouble in four years and 14 horses (not all at once!). I ask because I sent my gelding to a trainer for a couple months of advanced training and he immediately wanted to put shoes on him! If you read my posts, you can imagine my reaction. He said the horse was too short (feet) to stand up to the amount of riding he was going to do. Now the horse has never taken a lame step and I ride him everywhere without shoes or boots--barefoot for almost 5 years. The trainer's traditional farrier agreed (big surprise). Anyway, they have me second guessing myself. The thought of shoes on this horse makes me sick!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 11:38 pm:

Soo is he at the trainers now or has he returned?

I think we all second guess ourselves, there are so many theories on hooves it is kind of mind boggling at times. what works for one doesn't always work for another as we well know.

I bet the thought of shoes makes you sick, I'm almost getting to that point!

If he is still at the trainers do they think excessive wear will be the problem? I would think if your horse has a good thick sole he would be OK.

I know I noticed Hanks hoof wall wore down very quickly when I rode him in the limestone arena, I have been wondering myself if a person should leave a little "extra" in that case.

I know you won't put shoes on him! If he does happen to get sore maybe that "perfect hoofwear" Rachelle and Guy were talking about would be a solution.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 7:53 am:

Julie,

You will have to be very careful with your horse in an environment of hostile to barefoot people.

You will also have to understand the actual physical environment your horse is in. What type of ground is he working on? How many hours a day is he working?

Also, if you have been trimming this horse, I would not let anyone one else touch him because they will not do it the same way as you do no matter how you try and explain it to them. If this horse has been sound and barefoot for 5 years, other than their traditional ( and in this case probably incorrect) views. These folks should listen to the person who has had this horse the longest and has this horses best interests at heart. After all, its you that is going to have to deal with his feet long after he comes home from the trainer.

Also, what Diane experienced with Hank in the limestone arena is very similar to what I experienced with my race mare on the stonedust track and led me to my Hoofwear/shoe combination.

I am now in the process of putting together a lightweight solution that will allow me to use a set of glue on hoofboots ( without glue) only when I need them( i.e. training miles on stone dust track) thus being able to leave my horses' barefoot at all other times. By doing this, I may be able to race entirely barefoot because the hoof wall wear will be very limited during the jogging and training process. The training down process is where the hoofwall gets the most wear, racing is very limited wear( total racing miles per week=less than two miles total on the track)

Any way my new experiment will start in about two weeks.

As far as the Perfect Hoofwear goes, if your horse is not in an abrasive environment it will work very well as long as whoever puts it on knows what they are doing and you use a barefoot trim with a beveled toe. It really is quite easy once you get the hang of it.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 8:03 am:

Rachelle do you think leaving the hoof wall a tiny bit higher in anticipation of wearing is a bad idea?

I have been wondering about this myself. Riding season is getting close. I ride Hank mostly in the arena, especially in the spring when he is "fresh" from not being touched all winter.

Sand or limestone can wear them down fast as you know.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 8:52 am:

Julie

I think your question is one that is very confusing to many, myself included. Diane's answer from PR's site is a good explanation. I just read some place about how we used to try to leave the heel so we could line up the pastern and shoulder angle; and that is not the best way. Reading the hoof, and using the sole plane, collateral grooves for guidance is what determines your heel height.

A mistake I made was I lowered the heels too much,(on Cody's hinds a few years ago..he was fine after a few weeks) by that I mean I did not lower the heel "v" into the sole, but rather I rasped back too much into the bulbs. Hard to explain what I mean.

Could you post a picture of a hoof showing the flat shinny heel? You say your horses are all sound so I don't think you are doing anything wrong, but there is always something we can improve upon when trimming it seems!

BTW, what Cody did with the too low heels was constantly rest one foot or the other. Do you notice your horses doing that?

OH boy, DO NOT let anyone put shoes on your horse or change the trim! If his hoofs need protection BOOTS!!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 9:19 am:

Diane,

IMHO, I think you need to make sure that your horses foot is balanced, trimmed and conditioned properly for the environment he/she is going to be in most of the time.

What this means is, as much as you want to take Hank and ride for 1/2 an hour 7 days a week, you may only be able to do it for 5 min a day 3 days a week. Just as I would not expect my race mare to go out and go in 2:00 the first time I trained her, you should not expect the same thing of Hank.

A horses foot conditions to his/her environment through a gradual conditioning process. It is the constant balanced stimulus (growth) and wear cycle that will eventually allow you to be able to ride Hank in any environment, but you have to be cognizant of how much wear and growth your horse is able to sustain without getting sore and be willing to back off if you see too much wear.

Let me give you an example. When I was training my mare barefoot last year, as long as I stayed on the dirt/sand track everything was great. Right amount of wear and growth and I was able to sustain the work and the bare feet and she kept her HPT trim with virtually no actual hoof work except for an occasional tweak.

The problem came when out of necessity, due to weather conditions or fast training miles I had to use the stone dust track and that's when I ran into trouble necessitating a change requiring a bit more protection. My problem than and now was that I did not want the protection to be permanent. I only wanted it for those times when I really needed it. My horses do not need hoof protection in the stall or out in the field, they might need it a few days a week for training and long distance jogging, but other than that I want them to be barefoot as much as reasonably possible.

This year when they start back, I think I have the perfect track environment. The outside of the track is sand/dirt and the inner part is stonedust. Their feet will be exposed to both surfaces as they train down in speed, so when they actually do have to go race their feet will be conditioned to the more abrasive surface and with judicious use of my lighter glue-less boots only when needed, their feet will stay perfectly conditioned (am I asking too much) for what I am asking them to do.

I think understanding the wear/growth/environment balance is the most important thing that one can come away with when trying to understand what to do in keeping the form and function of our horses feet.

With Hank, I would use your at liberty sessions( in the limestone arena) to build up his body and his feet to the point where you can ride him. I think because you are now aware of what the right things to do with his feet are, you will have less of a problem than you have had in previous years. Will you overwork him, probably, but you also know how to fix him too and that is the best combination you can have.

Rachelle
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 9:47 am:

Julie,

Inside that V-shaped area at the heel where the bar and the wall and the heelpoint meet is called the seat of the corn. That junction(bar,wall,heelpoint) should be slightly higher, but not overly so than the seat of the corn. The levelness of the foot, should determine the height of the heels because if the foot is level, there are no high or low spots. Each horses individual foot ( reading the hoof) will tell you how much to take off (or not). Taking off too much, will sore up a horse because it will make them land more heel first than they should.

Rachelle
Member:
juliem

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 11:50 am:

Thanks all for your input. This horse does naturally have a low heel, but if allowed to get longer it "lays over", so I do like to keep it from doing that. It lays over just like bars will when they get long. He'll be working in an arena with soft footing, so I fail to see how shoes would make a difference. I really think it's a case of trainer and his farrier unfamiliar with a barefoot horse. A barefoot trim looks a lot different that a trim to put shoes on. It's hard enough to send my child off to boarding school without this issue too!! I'd like to take a wait and see approach, but I wonder how much effort I'll get from the trainer since we're sort of at odd on this?? Sigh...........
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 2:01 pm:

Guess what I did today...I am so excited, I took Hank for a short ride!!!!

I went out to clean the lean-to and he came trotting out of pasture looking pretty darn good...it is SOOO nice out and I haven't rode him since last Oct. I think. So my thinking was if he is a tiny bit tender it may work in my favor with the little nut case. Saddled up...rode him in the soft fields that still have a good snow covering and he was a GOOD boy and did not tippy toe EXCEPT when we crossed the road to get to the fields....so nice to ride again...even tho it was short. Now I am even more determined to get him "sound" I am not going to let him stand around all summer again. I have to admit while we were tippy toeing across the road I was cussing the farrier the whole way..A LOT... Last week when I took the video of Hank he was walking/totting on that road just fine
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 3:42 pm:

Yeah - good for you to go on a ride. The weather is not too bad around here, but the footing is awful. Slippery mud everywhere. Got to be patient. Lilo
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 7:00 pm:

Good news that you got out for a nice, albeit short, ride!

Tender crossing the road after he previously wasn't is telling though, isn't it?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 7:11 pm:

Vicki it was so nice to have my butt in a saddle again. I kind of felt a little guilty, since he has been sore and has the bruising.

I spent quite a bit of time outside today after our ride and he actually looked better...a big sign with him is resting his back legs...he will not do that when his hooves hurt. He was standing with his back leg cocked and very playful.. no Dp's or heat at feed time. This was the perfect time to have the farrier if I was going to, I think we can deal with it. I'm not going to touch his hooves for a week or 2 then go back to beveling.

His girth went in the same hole as when last I rode him...and he has more hair...so I don't think he has gained any weight over the winter either...still a little chubby tho
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Feb 28, 2010 - 11:07 pm:

Wonderful news. I am very pleased for you and Hank.
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, Mar 1, 2010 - 11:00 am:

Diane glad you got a ride in! I would still be locking that boy on soft ground/bedding for a couple days tho...

Julie have you just asked your trainer to humor you for now and see how it goes? And let him know that if soundness or usability becomes and issue you will deal with it?

I would bet from his perspective if he's not familiar with the capabilities of barefoot horses that he is worried he isn't going to be able to do what he needs to with the horse. Give him a chance to learn by experience, and let him know that you are not unreasonable.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 2, 2010 - 8:17 am:

Sigh... the ground went back to frozen jagged, solid and Hank can't hardly walk on it. He stayed in the lean-to for breakfast... fed the other 2 outside, Sam is doing great!

I checked his hooves and cleaned them..DP's are raised again(no heat)... He was out on the hard ground when I went out, once he made it to the bedded lean-to he did not want to leave..which is good.

His heels look like they were lowered too much too. I will see if I can get some good pics this afternoon, I'm not sure if a bevel could help him or not, and wonder about his heels.


I am going to lock him in the lean-to area at night when it is froze solid...it hasn't been the last couple nights.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 2, 2010 - 7:57 pm:

Sorry to hear that Hank is sore but happy that Sam is doing well!
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 2, 2010 - 8:33 pm:

Sorry Diane ole man winter isn't cutting you a break.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 2, 2010 - 8:35 pm:

You guys are very smart ( I already knew that)

This ouchiness of Hanks is a little different this time, he isn't going "down hill" like he usually does, which I take as a very good sign, maybe he is finally growing some sole thickness


Anyway upon further inspection it looks like he is growing his callous back already. I ran the riders rasp around just to see what a bevel would look like on these hooves, and it looked pretty good and gave me a "feel" for what I can do. It also appears he is now high on the outside, where before he was high on the inside.

He was out and about when I got home today looking very comfortable. I took a video of him walking on semi- hard, BUT flat ground...there is a slight incline there so not completely even, but it does appear he is landing heel first.

This weekend I am going to bevel his hoof wall better, you were right I think it will help.. and work on his bars, I was being a scardey cat again

After riders rasp









you can see the callous is coming back pretty good already in this one

Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 2, 2010 - 11:38 pm:

Forgot the Hank walking video

https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100302HanksOuchyHooves#5444206778586009698

First one to the hay... he isn't hurting too bad, that paddock is packed limestone

https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100302HanksOuchyHooves#5444261353252689442
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 3, 2010 - 7:25 am:

He didn't look to be in too much pain running towards you, lol!

I think there are still high spots looking heel to toe, at the quarters. Easy to see in 3rd & 4th picture.

Our snow is almost gone in many spots; horses are standing in water, walking in mud, then the jagged frozen ground by morning. Spring is a real test of hoof health!
Member:
frances

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 3, 2010 - 1:27 pm:

That does NOT look like a sore horse Diane!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 3, 2010 - 7:46 pm:

He seems to be getting better everyday. The morning jagged ground brings on quite a bit of tippy toeing, but when the ground thaws he is plain nuts! He was galloping around like an idiot today, got the 2 old ones all wound up, they were all running around blowing and snorting. HMMM maybe sore tootsies isn't really all that bad of a thing on crazy Hank...just kidding(I think)
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 3, 2010 - 7:48 pm:

What hot dog whipping around the corners.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 3, 2010 - 8:45 pm:

You should have saw him tonight, bucking and rearing...spring is in the air I WAS thinking about going for a ride until I saw those escapades... I'm too old to be hitting the ground.

This weekend I am going to try to get rid of some more of those flares. His LF still looks so much better than the RT front, I got to really get after that one. I can't believe the difference it has made these last couple months just from beveling the LF. The WL is MUCH tighter and the flares much smaller.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 6, 2010 - 3:10 pm:

I got Hank beveled, he isn't on his sole at the toe anymore. His crooked frog is driving me nuts. I looked at his pics and thought darn I should go out and scrub them, didn't realize they were that dirty...but I had dumped thrush buster all over them so that's out Now they are purple instead of muddy.

I think we are getting close to a good Hank hoof, unfortunately he is still quite sore on the frozen ground in the morning. I don't think my bevel will help that...I guess I will see tomorrow morning. He has had pretty significant DP's since the farrier trimmed him I am not giving him any Nasids..so he listens to his feet and stays where it is soft at night, this seems to be working. It thaws early in the morning and he is active all day and sound. I don't know if this boy will be able to tolerate hard ground this summer for riding but I am hopeful anyway

It is suppose to stay above freezing the rest of the week at night so this is an opportune time work on his hooves.

Tomorrow I am going to work on the bars...see anything else that I should do?? Sorry for the dirt. Thanks





How does one get the frog straight? I tried pushing it over.. nothings that easy!



I managed to rasp my thumb today..



Sole is not on ground anymore



That "blob has got to go too! Don't know if I stand a chance with that thing.

Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 6, 2010 - 4:35 pm:

Diane,

I think that the frog shape will take care of itself if you keep the feet balanced.

Hank may have some more foot remodeling to do. It just takes time and balance.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 6, 2010 - 4:44 pm:

Not Patience AGAIN... I'm running out of it! Gees horses are great teachers of that aren't they!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 6, 2010 - 9:25 pm:

You can say that again!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 8:14 am:

HMMMM no DP's this morning
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 10:10 am:

Diane - don't give up hope - I am confident it will work for you. I tried taking photos of Moonlights feet before and after her last trim (Friday) but I don't know if they turned out. It will take a lot of practice before I can take photos successfully like you are doing.
I was talking to my trimmer, and we discussed how my horses are fortunate with their environment. Semi-arid climate - sandy paddocks, south-facing and somewhat sloped, so they do not stay muddy very long. She is a farrier and admits that for some horses barefoot does not work. She wishes more of her clients who have problems with their horse's feet would try Renegade boots. She really likes them.
If the photos did not turn out, I will keep practicing. Oh - both my horses were shedding sole, so she did trim the loose stuff off their soles. Normally she does not touch the soles.
Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 10:57 am:

If he can't tolerate being ridden on hard ground this summer I will probably get him some MORE boots...IF I think I have his hooves where they won't change much anymore. I have to get rid of those flares first...or no boots for Hank

Would love to see pictures of Moonlights hooves, don't you have a digital camera?
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 11:49 am:

Diane, I just spent an hour reading and watching video about Renegade Boots and Glue Ons. Wonder what the boots would be like for me or you and Sam on the trail?

In the installation, it looks like some hoof balance/shape issues can be resolved with filler that is bonded to the inside of the boot or the glue on. Wonder if that would prevent having 4 sets of boots as the hoof changes? Wonder if the filler adhesive can be removed as the foot changes and refilled and used again? No where on the Renegade site does it mention how to get the Glue Ons off the foot. Perhaps that is a dumb question...?
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 11:50 am:

I meant you and HANK.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 12:17 pm:

I have been browsing boots too. I tell ya if you can get away with just 4 pair good for you

I like the looks of the easy boot glove..but would have to get Hanks hoof at a stand still for them. You have a bit of toe to go with Diva too...so I would be careful in your choice!
From what I read about the glove the fit has to be just about perfect.

I was looking at the Renegades and when they started messing with some cable..I was put off...I Like EASY!!!

Glue on shoes... First problem with that is my farrier probably don't have any idea about them.. I don't think I want to do it at this point ( I do know my limitations) Plus I don't know how they would handle the mud...I don't want to lock him in...movement is very important for Hank and Sam.

Sole guard may be my choice at first until I can find a boot that suits, I think I saw they are now making individual sole guard applicators so you don't have to invest in a gun and all the tips ect. IF it works I may just stay with that...I will have a real hard time buying boots after all I have already filling the hidey hole that don't fit!

Maybe YOU should start a thread on hoof boots and sole Guard and see if any one has any "critiques" of them.... I'm out of parts!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 1:05 pm:

Vicki,

I've been this route before and I have several emails going back and forth with Kirt Lander the founder of the Renegade Hoof boots. You can get them off by putting baby oil/WD 40 on the night before and letting it soak in. This breaks the bond and then they are easy to get off.

Also, if you totally glue them on, they will stay on in mud and any other terrain you have. I would not recommend you leaving these totally glued on for more than 10 days or you might have other issues develop. That's why I want to be able to put them on and take them off with the screws and not have them totally glued on. Plus I think I will get more wear out of the boots that way.

Diane, Hank needs more concavity for the soleguard to work properly or there will be too much sole pressure for him to deal with.
Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 1:19 pm:

Rachelle you don't think my flat footed Hank has concavity I figured that might be a problem!. I was looking at your shoe in your thread and with a velcro strap HMMMM.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 1:21 pm:

Diane,

Because of the Renegade Glue on Cuff, the glue on installation is really easy. It doesn't need any know how to do it. All you need is a 80 grit sandpaper block to rough up the outside wall and the inside of the boot.

The hard part of a regular glue on shoe is the hoof prep because you are trying to bond to the bottom of the foot and if it isn't prepped properly the bond is bad. That doesn't happen with the cuff.

That's why I want to come up with a way to screw these on, that way you only have to do the prep once and then you can reuse the boots as many times as you want, even doing maintenance trims in between regular farrier/trimmer visits.

The correct fit for these boots would be to trim hooves and measure and get the next size up from your measurement. This allows for proper foot expansion when glued on and allow for hoof growth

Rachelle
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 1:28 pm:

Diane,
The regular Renegade Hoof boots were meant to be used on Endurance horses. They stay on no matter what. I like those boots but they are too heavy to race with. For what I need the glue-ons/screw-ons would work better.

Did you look at the Regular Renegade boots?

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 1:28 pm:

Are they open on the bottom?? Since I had multiple problems with leaving Hank in boots during his founder, I don't like closing off the bottom of his hoof for long periods...made for a lot of unrelated problems... Thrush.. WLD...soggy soles ect.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 1:40 pm:

The Boots are open at the back under the heel bulbs. Look on the website at the cutaway views and back of the foot views. Hmmm.

I wasn't put off by the cables. I was more put off by the glue!

And the glue on apps just aren't what I need I don't think. Although I wonder if the Glue ons would be good for a few days in stall/turnout/drylot? Whereas boots should come off sometime during a 24 hr period and whenever I'm not around?

Hmmm.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 1:42 pm:

I did look at the regular boots, Too many working parts for my preference Boots really are out until Hanks hooves are at a stable, reliable size....that may happen in a month or 2...depending on how brave I get

I like the Old Macs real well, and the are very easy on and off ( I have 3 pair between Sam and Hank!) They leave a little wiggle room too. BUT for $150 they are going to fit him for awhile!

PLUS I am going to give him the opportunity to not need any protection at all. He did well last fall after his shoe removal..with no protection.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 1:44 pm:

That's what I'm afraid of diane...continual hoof changes that render the new boots unwearable...

Renegades would seem to be the Last Pair of boots I buy, right?

LOL
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 1:53 pm:

If you get them a year from now

I hate to discourage boot use, they are GREAT..I loved them on Sam (he only had one pair)

Hank and his ever changing hoof don't agree with them well at this point. I could have bought a new saddle with the money I have in boots.

I guess the good news is he is at least going down in size... he doesn't take Draft size anymore
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 2:30 pm:

Diane,

I happen to agree with you about boots. And I think long term continuous use of them is not good, but if you were able to take them on and off and only use when necessary, which is what I am trying to do with my screw ons then the long term continuous use would be a thing of the past.

Remember, I am not using the regular boots because of the weight and too much external hardware that might cause interference when going at speed. I also want to take them off to be able to trim.

So my use is going to be much different from your use and for you barefoot and no boots is workable, but for me and as many miles that I go jogging, training and racing it's not at least not for right now.

My goal is to get these horses to the races and eventually be able to race barefoot, but it will take a special kind of conditioning for me to be able to to that. I personally do not think I can condition their feet unless I do use boots on a sporadic basis. But, I want to be in control of when I use them and when I don't and not be locked in to a specific trim/shoe cycle or having to use permanently affixed( whether glued or nailed on) shoes because I can't get them on or off myself.

I guess what I am saying is I do not want to be at the mercy of someone else's time line because there isn't a product on the market that will do what I want. This is in it's infancy and most likely will have several revisions before I find out what really works and I may eventually have to go back to my Hoof Wear and shoe combination, but I will keep trying, I know there is a solution out there somewhere, maybe this is it and maybe its not, only time will tell.
Rachelle
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 2:36 pm:

As far as open at the bottom, as long as you leave the back intact, the way the tread is you could cut out several parts of the sole and still have a very stable boot. In fact, if I need to lighten up my boots more, that's what I intend to do.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 3:42 pm:

Well folks, as soon as I make my first million with the equine slow feeders, I will look into setting up a "rent-a-boot" company!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 7:16 pm:

Not a bad Idea Angie...stock alot of sizes

This is bugging me so I am going to throw it out there and see what you guys think...

For about the last month when ever I do ANYTHING to Hanks hooves...including just cleaning them he DrOps and hangs out... soon as I am done he reels it in...what's up with that??? He never used to do that. I watched to see if he DrOpped when the farrier did him...he started to a little then changed his mind...is he just becoming a dirty old man... or does it mean something...
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 9:47 pm:

Diane - I just uploaded my first attempt at taking hoof photos - they did not turn out that great. I have a digital camera but not one of the newer, light-weight models, and the screen is very small. Plus, I found out I have to have reading glasses on, or I cut off part of the hoof.
So - I don't want to clutter up the board with those. But, I will keep trying.
Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 9, 2010 - 6:06 pm:

As I was reading Vicki's posts on diva I realized I hadn't walked Hank on hard ground since I beveled him. The ground has been soft recently so couldn't tell in the pasture. We went out to the paved road, where just last week his was a cripple on (before I beveled) He looked like a million bucks!! trotted willingly and free!.

The funny thing is his foot falls sound solid. Whenever I took him on pavement before (and I'm talking years here) his foot fall sounded like muffled like he had beDrOom slippers on. I thought maybe WL disease was eating his hoof away.

It was wonderful to hear CLIP CLOP CLIP CLOP
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 9, 2010 - 7:44 pm:

Great news, Diane.

I am so happy to hear this!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 10, 2010 - 9:26 am:

Way to go, Diane!!! Lilo
Member:
frances

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 10, 2010 - 10:05 am:

CLIP CLOP CLIP CLOP - hadn't thought before what a glorious sound that is! Well done!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2010 - 7:08 pm:

Well I have now managed to get brave enough to take knife in hand and work on the bars a little...they are better That thing should come with instructions.

I have been trying to get Hanks walls even and a little lower so that crooked frog don't tip right off his hoof... The frog IS getting straighter.. I think I have Hank in AN OK 4 point trim.. remember I am still very amateur and CAREFUL! I do see the heel is a little higher on the left side of the picture..will fix that tomorrow and leave him alone..I THINK I have done all I can? and now will maintain. His WL is really starting to look much much better.

So to round up #11 here is the finished product..not perfect.. will walk him on pavement tomorrow to see if he still clip clops. It has been VERY muddy for weeks and that is not helping my efforts any Thanks everyone for your help...hopefully he will stay sound and I can report riding off into the sunset barefoot come riding season..which is soon!









Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2010 - 7:08 pm:

Well I have now managed to get brave enough to take knife in hand and work on the bars a little...they are better That thing should come with instructions.

I have been trying to get Hanks walls even and a little lower so that crooked frog don't tip right off his hoof... The frog IS getting straighter.. I think I have Hank in AN OK 4 point trim.. remember I am still very amateur and CAREFUL! I do see the heel is a little higher on the left side of the picture..will fix that tomorrow and leave him alone..I THINK I have done all I can? and now will maintain. His WL is really starting to look much much better.

So to round up #11 here is the finished product..not perfect.. will walk him on pavement tomorrow to see if he still clip clops. It has been VERY muddy for weeks and that is not helping my efforts any Thanks everyone for your help...hopefully he will stay sound and I can report riding off into the sunset barefoot come riding season..which is soon!









Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2010 - 7:14 pm:

Well I have now managed to get brave enough to take knife in hand and work on the bars a little...they are better That thing should come with instructions.

I have been trying to get Hanks walls even and a little lower so that crooked frog don't tip right off his hoof... The frog IS getting straighter.. I think I have Hank in AN OK 4 point trim.. remember I am still very amateur and CAREFUL! I do see the heel is a little higher on the left side of the picture..will fix that tomorrow and leave him alone..I THINK I have done all I can? and now will maintain. His WL is really starting to look much much better.

So to round up #11 here is the finished product..not perfect.. will walk him on pavement tomorrow to see if he still clip clops. It has been VERY muddy for weeks and that is not helping my efforts any Thanks everyone for your help...hopefully he will stay sound and I can report riding off into the sunset barefoot come riding season..which is soon!









Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2010 - 7:18 pm:

Sorry about that, HA told me the files weren't uploaded and my browser didn't support it or something along those lines... so did it again, and now there are 3 Angie if you look at these it may take forever to load!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2010 - 10:02 pm:

Was wondering why I seemed to be reading the same lines over and over, LOL!! I know I am brain dead some days, but not as bad as I thought, phew!

Loads fine, just typing blind.

I think he needs more done on bars?

And lay your rasp like I tried to show with the line, follow the collatorol groove, keep the rasp level, and a few swipes taking off that high part and it would look so much better! You don't want to rasp pulling back towards the heels, but out, lining up with the groove, does that make sense?

My left line should be a tad higher on the outside, lower inside.

Let me do one more of the other view.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2010 - 10:15 pm:

Use the rasp like this: Do NOT lower the heel...the green area...just take off the high part. The rasp should be level.

That is what I would suggest because I see those same high spots in all the pictures. I think I know where you are on your learning curve as I really struggled with those same high spots/bars. In fact, I would be more concerned with that than bar work right now.

Just a few swipes! Out more than back. Don't use the knife if your aren't ready.

As always, just my opinion; I am no expert and what you see and what pictures show us...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2010 - 10:38 pm:

Oh good THANKS I was pondering how to do that. You must have told me that before, because I did do a couple LIGHT swipes something like that tonight and it did look better, but didn't "feel" right I was kind of doing a backwards bevel... close but no cigar!

Hoof in hand I have a hard time seeing the high spots. Then I look at the pics and LOL.

I'm starting to feel a little better with the knife.. I have been practicing a little everyday to get a "feel" for it before I get to enthusiastic Me thinks a person could do a little damage with one of them if you slipped up!

Thanks for the drawings AGAIN...it has finally sunk in (another light bulb moment)!

I'll get it yet... I just hope Hank can walk when I'm done!

Vets coming for the first round of vaccinations tomorrow, I'll see how he thinks the HA team is doing. I hope the vaccinations don't set old mister metabolic off.

Thanks Again I appreciate it...don't know if I would have figured that out for quite awhile!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2010 - 11:00 pm:

OH OH one more question, if I leave the green areas alone how do I get that higher heel lower? or is that included in the swipe? It really is A lot higher, if I get that straightened out it will look much better and I am sure Hank will feel much better



This close up shows how it is much higher... YIKES

Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2010 - 9:09 am:

I don't know if this will make sense or if I can explain it. Here goes:

You said backwards bevel: You follow the grooves and think of their depth. How deep at heel, and tip of frog? If it's more shallow at the tip of the frog..looks like it is...when you pull the rasp back...you are following the angle of the CG & frog...it should be at a SLIGHT ANGLE to match what the "mini hoof" (coffin bone) inside is. So in other words, you are not rasping the frog because the rasp would be a tad higher towards the frog, and by doing that, you would be doing your bevel already.

You line things up according to what the hoof is showing you and you won't "lower the heel."

If you just rasp straight out...you would lower that part too, but seems like there is some reason why that's not as good of way to do it....can't recall why.

Don't feel bad about using the knife; I just started getting comfortable using it to take those high spots off. Still struggle with rubbery frogs!

If you keep the rasp so you can see teh CG the whole time, follow that "line" you won't lower the heel, you'll just take the high spot off.

THEN you might have to do bar work...fun, huh?

I think you have higher quarters, not heels. You don't need to lower heels, but bring the HEEL POINT back. A good side view of him showing shoulder to ground will show that.

Put another way, his highest spots are at his quarters, the flares, and he's not on his heels correctly.

That's my take on it anyhow, for what it's worth.

Really typing blind!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2010 - 10:33 am:

Hi Diane,

I agree with Angie, and the close-up really shows the flares. I also think that Hank is still recovering from that lovely bevel job of your trimmer(not). I also, think if you put more of an angle on the bevel, his hoof would then start taking on the appearance of a more compact foot. Right now the flares are making his hoof bigger( but not necessarily better, more area for him to have to break over with) and keeping it from working properly and although he is sound( yes), getting rid of the flares will make him even better.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Rachelle
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2010 - 11:24 am:

I have elaborated on Angie's markup. If you look closely, you can see how much more compact the hoof looks with the flares removed.Angie Hank's Hoof markup

The idea is to remove the flares frequently( a little at a time) as the tighter part of the hoof grows down, so that no stress is applied to the juncture of the laminae and hoof wall.

I think you will have this down pat, once you combine his exercise on hard ground( conditioning, stimulus, wear) with how much growth, with how much you trim.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2010 - 2:09 pm:

Thanks Rachelle, that is what I have been trying to do slowly... hoof in hand his flares are slowly coming in. I will try a stronger bevel tomorrow. It is nasty out today. It seems this constant muddy, wet conditions help him to keep flaring, and worries me a bit about hoof wall integrity, his walls haven't been this low since the GOOD trimmer did him when Hank was a youngster, that guy beveled like crazy! Hank had a much nicer looking hoof then( not a flare to be found, the guy was anal about them.)... but was NOT sound to ride on hard ground...sigh. His hooves have been through a lot since then.. I THINK the problem with the GOOD farrier was he didn't hardly leave any heel...so maybe there is hope.

I can't wait to see if he will be sound to ride this spring, he looks good in the pasture, but that is pure sloppy (soft) mud. He looks good in the paddock too, but even that has a little forgiveness right now.. I think once it dries up I will be able to get a better handle on the flares...I hope... cuz' I'm getting sick of them and his pointing frog

Thanks again!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2010 - 6:56 pm:

I did work on Hanks hoof some more..this describes the results well My pics turned out REALLY bad because of the lighting and mud..so won't waste space now with them.

I did take him up on the road and on the BIG gravel driveway to see how he was moving afterwards.. I can't believe I haven't lamed that horse up yet. He moved well CLIP CLOP He is moving differently now because his breakover is different..it's like where are my toes NOT sore at all. Not a flinch on the big rocks tho the ground underneath of them is forgiving.

ANYWAY Angie this is for you.. I saw you said you had that anti virus virus... I did too. I have no idea why my anti virus didn't catch it. I couldn't figure out where I got it...I am pretty careful about the places I visit. My computer pretty much died...was unaccesible.

SOOO today I was going to load up Hanks video on Photo bucket... I Almost always use Picsaso web for videos, but I am running out of space, so thought I would visit my photo bucket account..haven't been there for a long time, don't hardly ever use it, and couldn't remember the URL so googled Photo bucket. Photo Bucket Virus popped up in one of the search results It would seem Photo Bucket is having quite a time with that virus. I am sure in all of my searches about hooves ect. I have viewed a photo bucket picture or video. (I have not uploaded any to HA for years from my account...don't really like it)) SOOO I just wanted to warn you to stay away from anything with Photo bucket... the posts were fairly recent, but it seems to have been going on for quite sometime... I got a new computer out of it anyway! Computer Engineer son is coming home at Easter and is going to fix my other one. You can bet I have excellent virus protection now!... tho I thought I did before too
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2010 - 9:19 am:

Diane,

Our tech guy said we had 2 anti virus programs competing on our system...weird as he fixed our computer last time too, and put the one on! Now he put Kaspersky on here...so far, so good.

FYI, I will try to get some clean hoof pics over the next few weeks. I noticed some really neat things with Gem's hoofs yesterday when I cleaned them; the shape of her feet is changing! It's almost as if a "little hoof" is emergening out of the "old hoof" meaning I can see the concavity starting finally! I can see a ridge in the out line of the coffin bone...don't panic...it looks good!

I wanted to share this with you because I haven't changed her hoof form in 3 years as much as I've changed them in a few WEEKS since changing my beveling and just a few other minor adjustments. Squared off her toe more like Redden (remember how much that freaked me out?! I didn't go that extreme) bar work, and consistent touch ups.

I hope I am not getting excited prematurely, but it sure seems like I am seeing changes!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2010 - 10:47 am:

Look forward to seeing them Angie, it is a little freaky changing their hooves, but if they walk off sound I guess somethings working I can't bring myself to do alot in a day...slow changes. Hank is now high on his other side for God's sake
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2010 - 11:56 am:

Diane,

I'd like to respond to the Hank hanging out thing. Basically, he is relaxed and he likes what you do to his feet, sort of like the licking and chewing thing. He associates the farrier with pain so, while he thought about it the anticipation of what what about to happen made him reel it in. Turns out he was right!

Also, I think in Aileen's thread, Lee talked about letting the horse tell you what he needs, well that may be true in many cases, However, my really good farrier/not trimmer, who shoes a lot of racehorses helped me understand that sometimes the wear on a horses feet is indicative of what he does everyday and not necessarily the best way to trim for a specific gait.

By that I mean a horse that trots every day while he/she is exercising, but races on the pace, wears his/her shoes/feet in a different way than if that same horse were to stay on the gait at which they race at. I also think racehorses would have less interference problems at speed, if this were the case. To back up my thought process on this, I think one of the contributing factors to the reason my race mare stays so sound is the fact that she paces everywhere, so the wear on her feet is very consistent all of the time. She is also very good gaited and does not have interference problems.

The reason I bring this up is that I think once Hank starts back into any kind of exercise program, his feet are likely to start changing again to become more consistent with the kind and amount of work he is doing at any one given time. And you will probably not have to trim as often to get his feet where he wants them.

I do have one tip. Whenever you do decide to try him on hard ground try not to trim him the day or two before.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2010 - 12:52 pm:

Good analogies Rachelle Now all have to do to get Hank to DrOp is touch his hooves (weird)

If I EVER get his hooves evened up I shouldn't have do anything but a tweek every week or two.. my gawd that farrier stuff is hard on an old back! I can't do more than 2 hooves a day... 4 on a realy good day (which isn't often)

Thanks
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2010 - 2:39 pm:

This is a TEST message /Photo
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2010 - 2:52 pm:

Sorry, with Apple expert . 2nd Test Photo upload!2nd Test Photo
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2010 - 2:29 am:

Sorry about the above posts, messing up your Discussion . I wasn't at home and Farrell took this Discussion to see if the photo goes . We've been busy for 4 hours and still can sen 1 picture at a time . And there is a fault on the line too. I see you too have computer problems.
Thank you for being patient with me .

Diane - your back . What about to get a stand ? My back doesn't like it too. I am experimenting with car jack (cover it with a cloth) and it helps - BUT my horses don't keep some of the feet nicely on. Keep taking them off. Cannot find good position for them to be comfortable ? Or need some getting used to it ?
Angie is there a difference what jack to buy ?
Ant to be funny - it is my knee and elbows too ... Why are we so worn out ?! Of course brain transplant would help too .
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2010 - 7:32 am:

Anna,

I have the Hoof-IT, and love it! NOT the Hoof Jack...the Hoof-it has rubber over the cradle and middle stem. There is no changing of parts as the middle part just pulls up.

https://www.hoof-it.com/catalog2/index.php

I think the rubber is less vibrating on the hoof too.

My first "hoof stand" was a 12" x 12" base of 1 1/2" high desensity particle board with a 6" x 6" left over treated post mounted to it. I can post a picture if you need me to. Just used left over stuff we had.

Need new discussion PLEASE! Sticky typing stinks!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 6:39 am:

I'm out of parts Angie! That's weird you have sticky typing. I have never had that happen, they take long to load, but typing is fine
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 7:26 am:

I don't understand it either. Maybe sometimes other things are running in the backround I don't know about? I've asked 2 different tech guys about it, no answer. And it's much better right now for some reason?! (maybe if I type in the wee hours of the morning?)

No PART 12! But a SUCCESS at Last Trimming Story, ha ha! You're soooo close Diane, just a few minor things to see, and tweak. Honest!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 7:56 am:

We will have a Part 12 when Hank is sound for ridden work on hard ground...with a good hoof. We are going back to winter the end of the week...am VERY curious how he is on the jagged ground this time around. He is moving great right now. No pulses... his hooves are not perfect...probably never will be, but much improved...still a little uneven!... I think that is one of my biggest challenges. I even up the one side then the other side looks higher... I'm out of hoof to work with so he will be a little uneven for a week, then maybe I can straighten him out... doubt it!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 7:55 pm:

Glad that Hank is going well but sorry about the return of winter, Diane!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 9:32 pm:

Thanks vicki.. That boy is SOOO flat footed I don't know if I stand a chance with this.. I hope so.

We went for a wonderful ride today through the fields, he was such a good boy and seemed actually happy to get out. I think he loves his bitless bridle.

He was very sound in the fields.. the paved road slowed him down.. but he was not tippy toeing he strided out.. but did feel "slower". I rode him a short way on the road to try to start toughening his feet up. I cleaned every ones hooves out tonight and the 2 old ones have so much concavity...the mud sticks in there.. Hanks is just stuck right there.. no digging

Time will tell as always. I HOPE in a couple mos. I can report he is sound on all terrain.... I'm hopeful, but realistic.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 11:02 pm:

He has come so far, Diane. It would be so awesome to have him sound at the beginning of the nicer weather!

No one had flatter feet than my old Buddy, but he is sound now.

Perhaps Hank will develop some concavity along the way.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2010 - 12:04 am:

For some reason I doubt it, he has always been a flat foot and his rotation didn't help it any.

Then again I didn't think he was capable of ever being "normal" under saddle. For the second ride of the season he was AWESOME! so maybe there is hope for his hooves too I will go with boots if he can't handle it, I think his hooves are getting close to the size they are going to be, and stay. Once it dries up( if it does) I'll know more this constant wet stuff isn't helping matters. 2 more days of warm weather YAY... 2 more rides before old man winter blows in again! I think the arena is dry enough to use, I am going to try him in there tomorrow...that will tell me something. To get there we have to walk on those septic rocks hubby put down to get there, the limestone is probably hard as rock and I'm not going to harrow it just to see how he goes on it. I have a feeling he'll be fine
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2010 - 9:43 am:

Different horses have different hoof configurations. My mare's feet have very little concavity compared to the gelding's, however, she is just fine.

Wishing you many good rides,
Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2010 - 8:03 pm:

Septic rock, and cement arena sound, for short ride...conditioning his hooves.

Rachelle You would be proud his frog is almost straight..much better...hope it don't start tipping the other way RF is straight.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2010 - 10:18 pm:

By George, I think she's got it.

I think conditioning hooves is like conditioning horses. I wouldn't go out and jog my race horse 5 miles after she's had 4 months off with or without shoes. So, short rides a few times a week on hard ground and maybe longer rides on ground that's a bit more forgiving. A combination of conditioning surfaces will give you the best results long term.

As it gets later into the riding season and Hank's feet become accustomed to the harder ground, you will be able to spend more and more time on harder ground. The prep work you are doing now will give Hank's feet the ability to stay sound where ever you want to go. Just watch how much wear he gets and don't overdo it. The rain and the mud make horses feet soft and they tend to wear more quickly. Go slow and have fun ( You really didn't need that Palomino, now you have Hank to ride. Look at all that money you saved.)

Diane and Hank on the way to rock crunching feet. ( YEAH)!

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2010 - 6:11 am:

Rachelle, you are right I think I will get Hank a new Saddle with the money I saved from not getting another horse. Poor Palomino Pete had some hooves on him that make Hanks look pretty good at this point. I hope you are right about rock crunching hooves, I still have reservations about it, unless he gets some concavity. The vet didn't make it for vaccinations the other day. I think I will have one of Hanks hooves x-rayed when he does come just to see how his sole thickness is. Both fronts have always been similar, and one x-ray would be much cheaper I think...if not I will do both.

His bruising is finally gone, will be curious how he does on the frozen jagged stuff headed our way next week. THANKS!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 8:50 am:

Frozen jagged ground sound. At first I didn't see Hank out for breakfast and thought Oh-OH. When I went outside he TROTTED out on the stuff!!!! Can't believe it his hooves look so short ( I am still trying to get rid of the flares.)

Look how much wall I have removed...thought for sure he'd be lame! Still having problems figuring out the heel... I NEED another part!!!!

March 19

Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 9:28 am:

I think that looks good Diane. I am not sure what his wall thickness is at the quarters so just be careful not to thin the wall there too much. Now just smooth off the bevel on the outer wall, including the heel, and leave him be for 2 weeks.

The combo of soft ground and frozen ground will be good for his hooofs I think!

Good JOB!!

Oh, a rasp or 2 on the heel, following frog/CG line is all those heels need. But you can wait and let him adjust to the new bevel and his sole will toughen up more. No hurry, just a tweak for later.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 11:31 am:

BUT BUT his heels are weird! I did do the pull back with the CG thing and I like that concept. Something is still screwy tho!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 11:34 am:

I will fit one more picture on this thread to show you If I can get a good one.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 2:53 pm:

Take a good side view pic; what is the point at the heel that is weight bearing? Should be the green line, I think he's more towards the pink line. (My lines are not real accurate, and he's not standing square, and I am typing blind) As I understand it, DrOpping a line through the middle of the cannon bone should land almost behind the heel. Does that makes sense? I may be thinking wrong, of course we know nothing is set in stone with hoofs there are always exceptions.

And I think he's close to where he needs to be; little adjustments are the hardest IMHO because we don't know if we should or shouldn't do something!

As you keep the toe beveled, the heel will go back, I wouldn't worry about it except to watch that the quarters are not too high. Remember we can't fix every thing at once.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 5:12 pm:

Scrubbed and taken up to level solid ground standing square or darn near...not easy to take a pic and hold him in the middle of a busy rd.!

I think his angles look good. But that heel I'm not sure...definitely much improved over years gone by.

OH and the blob is doing interesting things too!

Dr.O. How do the angles and heels look to you? I would like your opinion too if possible. his heel is still UR isn't it?

He was very sound on the gravel and the blacktop..I'm starting to be impressed myself

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 5:37 pm:

Diane the angle is too obliqued to accurately assess the heels and ap balance. Take the image with the camera as close to the ground as possible and include the pastern and lower half of the cannon bone. Be sure the shot is a true lateral and the horse is standing square.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 7:24 pm:

Thanks Dr.O. I can't lay in the middle of the road so took some in the lean-to... I laid on the ground I got to say his hoof is much uglier when close up and personal.... I'm starting to wonder if I am not making him worse!!!

I think this is true lateral, it's the best one I got. It does make me see what I need to do I think.. doing it is another thing tho

I hope this is right...thanks

Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 6:49 pm:

I guess I am half way to my goal, Hank seems to have gravel crunching hooves now. He walks on that hard jagged septic rock as if it was soft ground. His stride is very nice in the arena, and he just seems happy!

They are still ugly but something must be going right! I am very thrilled... don't think I am going to need boots after all
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 11:00 am:

What GREAT news, Diane!!!

(Like your icon).
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 6:46 am:

Dr.O. and hoof helpers, with any luck the vet is coming today for the first round of vaccinations. Do you think having him x-ray Hanks hooves would help me any? I see from my lateral there does still seem to be a flare in his toe and a stretched WL, so I take it there will still be rotation. I am curious if his sole thickness is any better, or if his rotation has improved any since his last x-rays in 2008. Or is it a waste of money? They won't be real good x-rays I'm sure.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 7:34 am:

I wouldn't waste money on x-rays myself. I'd keep the bevel strong, and give Hank another 3-4 months. He's doing well, right?

What is the collaterol groove depth in back? And near the tip of his frog? According to Ramey, that is a pretty good indicatoer of sole thickness and tells you where the CB is. As you keep making the toe back up with the bevel, you tighten the white line. As the hoof gets more "impact" from landing correctly, the CB will move "up" and as you develope the toe callous, that is more protection for the CB. So you will get more concavity, and that will mean more depth for the col grooves.

If you could get some pictures with rasp across at the tip of the frog, and a ruler or tape showing depth there, and at the back of the frog, use that as your guide. A starting point, re check in a month. You should see changes as you keep up with the bevel.

And he'll stand a little less under him self..what I see above.

My opinion for what it's worth.

You could start a new discussion on collaterol grooves and heels, perhaps? It wouldn't be a new part, ha ha!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 7:43 am:

Angie surprisingly he finally has a little depth of the CG at the tip of the frog, he never has before...it was FLAT. I have read that the CG isn't always a good way to measure sole thickness tho.

In a way I would like to keep his parts together, when I switch subjects it gets hard to follow. I have tried to go back and look at some of his other hoof threads in here and when switching subjects it gets hard to find the outcome. I plan on following this through until Hank has his optimal hoof.

YES he is doing great, I hope the vaccinations don't change that!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 8:29 am:

That didn't take long, vet isn't coming today. We decided to do the horses when the vet does the chute work for the cattle on Good Fri. That way we only have one call out and on the cheaper cow call out rate... why horse calls are MORE I have NO idea.

We are going to x-ray Hanks hooves, vet felt it was a good idea also to see where we are standing. The x-rays don't cost much since they aren't digital. The call is out is what really adds to the bill, so I am basically getting that free since he was coming for the cattle anyway.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 7:42 pm:

My farrier also seems to think that X-rays are a waste of money in this regard, but my Vet does not.

How the Vet does them and reads them is very important as to accuracy with reading the results.

But for things that are very out of line, it would seem that would show up.

My farrier doesn't seem to believe that my Vet can do X-rays properly for accurate readings.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 8:12 pm:

If it satisfies your curiosity you have to put a price on that Diane. I use radiography when I have unexplained events going on or am contemplating aggressive intervention.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 9:14 pm:

Wouldn't the sole thickness give me an idea if I can expect Hank to tolerate barefoot for ridden work?
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 9:38 pm:

Diane,

1. Is not Hank bare foot now?
2. Aren't you riding him now?
3. If you xray, would it make a difference in how you deal with his feet?
4. Wouldn't Hank appreciate it more if you bought him a couple of bags of alfalfa pellets, or a new bridle instead of paying the money for the xrays?

But like Dr. O , my vet uses xrays as a diagnostic tool when there is a legitimate problem and he tells his clients that xrays are tools for informational purposes only,and since you won't get really good pictures anyway. I am not sure what purpose it will serve.

Do you really need to know how much sole depth he has, isn't it enough that for the first time in a lot of years you are going into the riding season sound.
Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 10:06 pm:

I'm never happy and I am Rachelle just have to go looking for trouble!!! I will let his hoof tell me instead of poor x-rays..new bridle NO..Alfalfa pellets YES!!!

I weighed little tubbers tonight, got 50#'s of winter fat off him and he is starting to look good.. he's kind of cranky about it tho.

Rachelle I was looking around at hoof sights including KC's, I see he thinks that a deep CG indicates a false sole... hmmm. Angie may be right we might need a discussion on this.

Do you think Collateral grooves can indicate TRUE sole thickness??
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 10:40 pm:

Methinks you are over thinking this. If you have a "false" sole, is that not extra protection in a way? It's protecting the sole underneath that is developing, right?

Can you post a link to what you read? I am curious as to where KC is coming from on this. I bet that's part of the story and in order to apply what he's saying we need to understand much, much, more.

And of course I am rightabout needing another discussion! Funny, no sticky typing now...sigh...I don't get it.

Do collateral grooves indicate sole thickness, and/or where the coffin bone is? Can the CB be at the correct angle and the sole still be thin? I am seriously asking, and getting you to think at the same time. I think the sole can be thin/brittle/soft, less than idea under many circumstances and the CB is fine all along?

And can a horse have rock crunching FLAT FEET?

Rachelle?
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:45 am:

I wish I could have had better luck with taking photos of my mare, Moonlight. Her feet are (in my opinion, anyway) quite flat. And, she has been barefoot without any problems for about 15 years.
Lilo
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