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Discussion on Opinions on Concrete floors in stalls
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 10:02 pm:
Any opinions on concrete flooring for horses stalls? We have a completely flooded barn right now. Snow is melting. This happens every spring, and I have to come up with a plan.
We need to raise the level of the floor, and are thinking of pouring cement in the stalls to raise the floor level, and then using the rubber mats with shavings.
Any reason this would be not advisable?
thanks
suz
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 8:18 am:
Susan, if you're asking what folks think about horses standing on mats over concrete, many horses are kept that way.
Or is your problem elevation? If water is running into the barn, into the stalls, perhaps it's time to grade the adjoining dry lot/pasture so it slopes away from the barn?
Or is the water table just too high and the water is from the ground? That said, I have known folks to add dirt to their stalls as the stall floor gets packed down over time (and holes/swales) as the horses stomp and pack it and dig in it.
It's early and I haven't had enough caffeine just yet so perhaps my dendrites just aren't firing properly and it's affecting my comprehension. 
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Member:
lucyc1
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 9:20 am:
Our barn has concrete aisles but stall mats over crushed stone in the stalls. (We leveled the crushed stone, wet it and compacted it with a "jumping jack." It is not as hard as concrete, but it is firm enough to have many of concrete's advantages.) When we built it (in 2001) we debated the pros and cons of concrete in the stalls, asked a bunch of people for opinions and visited a bunch of barns. What we came away thinking is that even with mats the concrete is harder on horses legs -- unless you bed very deeply. I also think that unless you bed very deeply, or pull the mats and clean the concrete regularly, you are more likely to get urine sitting between the mat and the concrete. With dirt or crushed gravel if some urine gets under the mat it can seep down and be broken down in the dirt. It's been 9 years since we put in the mats; the barn has no smell and we have not yet had to pull the mats to clean under them.
One suggestion would be to build up the stall floors with crushed rock (m-10) (and lots of PDZ or lime.) It is probably cheaper than concrete, and I think it's better for the horses.
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Member:
lucyc1
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 9:22 am:
On the other hand, as Vicki said, you could put the money to creating a drainage system around and away from the barn.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 10:19 am:
Thanks everyone. I guess my major question would be how the concrete with mats will be on my horse's health?
When we built this building we did not elevate it high enough to effect the flow of water around the building. Last year we dug out a huge 4 x 4 x 4' deep hole at their entrance area to their yard. Filled it with gravel and we spent quite a bit on a drainage system all the way to the ditch in front of our place.
This has worked well with spring rains, however we had 6 to 8 feet of snow surrounding the barn that is now melting, with no where to go. I have sandbagged, and we have tried to dig trenches to divert the melt down.
I have continually added clay/gravel to this stall, it is the one the horses go through to get into the barn, so lots of traffic. We always get a hole.
So I am debating the permanence of concrete, or the rock solution.
How we have been looking forward to spring this winter, and now comes the MUD! YUK
thanks
suz
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 10:47 am:
I had concrete floors in Holland and France. If you choose concrete take care the top level stays 'uneven' to give the horses grip if not they will slide. Nicething is that you can clean it and disinfect it. Had no rubber mats as the urine would get in between and I would drag them out to clean underneath.. BUT they were always bedded deep with either shavings or straw.
I wonder sometimes if the dirt in fi CA isn't just as rockhard as concrete? And you cannot clean dirt very well..
Jos
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 11:53 am:
Packed clay is every bit as hard as a 12'x 12' 4" slab of concrete with no rebar in it.
You could pack the clay with a vibrator pad. You can rent these. Looks roughly like a push lawn mower handle with a small, gas engine. Has a vibrating metal pad rather than a blade! Then you could put a layer 2-4" of crushed stone and vibrate it flat. Use a 2x4 as a screed to see that it's level by putting a level on the board place the board in several places. Vibrate, check for level, vibrate, repeat until it's firm and doesn't "pump" when you walk on it but stays in place like level "concrete". Put thick rubber mats on top of that.
If this stall is your "muDrOom" entrance to the barn, how often and how long is a horse actually confined to that stall?
I used a different kind of flooring option called Equiterr which would give you a forever level surface. Other than Concrete, Pavement, Paver Bricks or Equiterr, I don't think there is a "forever" solution to flooring; it all requires maintenance, adding and packing new material. Although the flooring is only as solid as the base and subbase material.
Can you post a picture of your barn and the slopes around it? The Husband is a commercial excavator contractor. Perhaps he might have an idea.? Maybe. Maybe not.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 12:10 pm:
I like concrete with thick rubber mats specifically because you can pull the mats and power wash once a year. However if you don't take that step you will end up with pee smell eventually. Well packed deep gravel (6-8") works just as well if power washing horse pee is not your idea of a good time! I like Lucy's idea of layering in crushed lime along with the gravel.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 12:12 pm:
Packed clay and gravel can smell like urine over time as well I think. The lime definitely would help that.
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Member:
cometrdr
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 1:43 pm:
I agree with Jos - Ewe the stink of Concrete with Rubber Mats. You can't put in enough Shavings or straw for my gelding - they pee like.... well a Horse!!! and if it seeps under mats that have nothing but concrete flooring underneath then it starts to smell quickly.
How bout investing in water diversion, GUtters, Ditches and water transfer away from the barn? I think I would put my money and time there.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 4:05 pm:
The barn I worked at had this problem also the water would run down the hill, the snow would melt, and we had a flooded barn a few times a year. They tried a diversion ditch...didn't work.
So the guy put a submersible sump pump out there and pumped it away from the barn...actually worked pretty good
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 4:38 pm:
Thanks again to all! Muffi, I already spent a bunch last year, or the year before, can't remember, putting in diversion tiling (farmers use this in their fields for drainage.) Where I have the problem is in Cody's stall. The major problem is that we had to blow snow into his front run from our business parking area, so there is 6 to 8 feet of snow piled up that is melting and heading right to his barn door. His stall is lower than the surrounding grade, and we tore a barn down that was in front of this new barn. The concrete is still there that we use for parking. We would have to dig under concrete, or tear it up to make a proper drainage away from his door. The other stalls, and center aisle are staying dry.
Of course the ground is still frozen so etching out a trench in the ice is working, but we are talking gallons of water. I have been daily putting in a sump pump and pumping out his stall and he is living in the aisle way right now.
They are out all day, and just brought in at night.
Normally Cody's stall is not the way out. His is the only one that has access to the outside with a dutch door. Usually they go out the big sliding door to the east. This has been frozen and snow bound since Christmas. WE have been hit unusually hard this winter with quick snows that lasted for EVER!
The 4' x 4' by 4 foot deep hole I had backhoed out on the east side has worked. I may try that this spring as well in front of cody's door. He does have gutters above his stall, that are filled with ice from the roof etc.
We could try burying a drain attached to the downspout and divert the water out farther from the barn though, that might help huh? or should I say DAH! The roof water is emptying right outside of his stall contributing to the problem
Vicki, I e-mailed equiterr for a bid yesterday.
So I am researching. WE have had lots of problems with the stall, because of elevation, more traffic, if the wind is blowing from the east, we use his door as an exit as well. That is why I am considering the concrete. I could have my contractor put a drain in the center and slope the stalls so it would be easier to wash out.
I am threatening my husband to move back to Arizona 
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Member:
cometrdr
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 5:20 pm:
ha ha - Yea move back to AZ - We just did!!! We moved from the Frozen (albiet Beautiful) mountains in N New Mexico to Prescott.
Will NEVER Regret the move - I ride at least 3 times a week - all winter. Very little gets me down here. and Yes we get snow - but it goes very quicikly usually in 24 hours when the sun comes back out.
yup Susan - Move Back ....
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 6:35 pm:
Muffi, I don't want to hear it. That is where my husband kidnapped me from and moved me to the Iowa Tundra. He said no one has paid the ransom so he is stuck with me
I had an acreage on Williamson Valley Road, by Granite Mountain. I would sit on my stoop and look at Granite Mountain every morning. I did not have horses there though.
I worked with the wolves at the Prescott Zoo, and had my dog training business there. I get back just about every year to visit, lots of friends still in Prescott. I will have to look you up. Where are you in Prescott?
Unfortunately they are having water problems there. My property is sitting vacant as the well dried up.
suz
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 7:08 pm:
susan, the Equiterr folks will probably tell you how great Equiterr drains. It does. For awhile, but like anything with holes in it, it becomes plugged with organic matter and freezes. And it becomes plugged in warmer weather simply with the crud horses drag in on their feet. I clean my stalls 2x a day and the adjoining drylots are stone so no mud is drug in, ever except what they may bring in on their bodies after rolling in the pasture during turnout as I clean feet before they go back in the stall/dry lot. My horses plugged them in four months simply from the little bits of hay they DrOp (which is darn few; they waste nothing) and the manure on their feet. I use enclosed slow down hay feeders, so the hay is not on the floor, Also the #12 angular stone I used at first must be rather soft stone because the Haflingers, with no shoes, ground some of it to dust w/i 4 months which then became limestone dust which helped to plug the holes, add water/urine and it turned into a nice little limestone brick...
I have tried several experiments with Equiterr in my stalls and drylot. I like it and I would buy it again for several reasons; however, the "drains forever" is not one of the reasons. Because it doesn't drain forever.
Also, I had some advantages which made it cheaper as it is pricey which is part of the reason I would buy it again. We have our own aggregate and excavating equipment so we do our own work. If you would like to see detailed pictures of it being put down in the drylot and in the stalls, let me know. I have them posted on facebook. But. Equiterr flooring will not solve your drainage problem long term. It will give you a nice flat surface forever.
I am assuming you all don't have a backhoe otherwise you would move that snow pile from in front of the doors? It might be worth it to buy a couple hours of backhoe time to move it rather than fight it for week(s) as it melts.
Without seeing any pictures of your building site, my kneejerk advice is water will always be a problem and anything you do will only be a short term bandaid if the water doesn't flow away from the barn. Downspouts with long runs of tile away from the barn will help the roof water but you still need to address the ground water run off.
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Member:
boots
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Posted on Monday, Mar 8, 2010 - 7:51 pm:
If you do put concrete down you need to solve the water problem first. If water gets under your concrete it will break up in time and you may have a worse problem. Just my opinion. I think that concrete can be slippery and, as suggested, hard on horse feet so I would not choose it.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 9, 2010 - 8:49 am:
I will try to post some pics today. We have had a slow melt down, and the water is only now in the hole the horses have made.
There is not enough snow left to pay a backhoe to move snow. As it softens up, we can get the tractor out there and drag it away from the barn.
If we put concrete in this stall, I think it might divert the water towards the tiling. But I will post some pics to show you.
suz
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Member:
cometrdr
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 9, 2010 - 12:15 pm:
OMG - Suz did i buy your house? I am in Williamson Valley - west side of WVR - Mint Creek Ranch - just north of outer loop.
email me personally -
Buzzratley@yahoo.com
details where did you live!!! and totally look me up when you come out
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 9, 2010 - 4:46 pm:
Suz, I have some DOG training questions. Would you be willing and interested to give me advise by private Email ?
To your water /flooding problem - you have to know where is the water coming from and stop it before it enters your barn !!
AM.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 9, 2010 - 11:23 pm:
Hey Muffi, will e-mail you tomorrow, long day!
AM No problem. I have been training puppies all day, so you bet send me a message.
The water is coming from everywhere right now! The driveway is mush, my kennels are poop soup, there is water water everywhere!
My concrete guy is coming out next week, and said he can check it out and see how we can work to divert the water.
I am also considering doing Levi's stall as well. I almost think I could keep them dryer this way. With Levi and his WLD recurring occasionally, I could keep it better disinfected, and we have a power washer that could keep the stalls washed out frequently.
My main concern would be the hardness on their legs, but a good hard crushed rock surface would be the same I think.
I would keep the stalls covered in rubber mats, but I wonder would I want a smooth finish or a brushed finish on the concrete?
suz
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 10, 2010 - 7:41 am:
I would put a broom finish on the concrete so it has a bit of a bite and isn't as slippery.
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