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Discussion on 1st or 2nd cut grass hay for a lamanitic horse??
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Member:
kmwhite
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 4:08 pm:
I've heard that 2nd cut grass hay is "richer" than 1st cut, but what exactly does "richer" mean? Does this mean that their is more sugar and starch?
My horse (22 yr old, Arabian) is now prone to laminitis, since he is currently recovering from founder.
I know I want to feed low NSC hay, but is 2nd cut grass hay lower or higher in sugar and starch than 1st cut?
Alfalfa is out since it makes him to hot/spirited.
My current 1st cut grass hay was tested and has 13% NSC. Is this ok to feed him?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 6:43 pm:
Karen you can't tell what the NSC's are by the cutting or the looks of the hay, it depends on a lot of factors. Testing is about the best way to find out. 13% isn't bad if you want to get it a little lower soak it for half an hour in cold water.
There is a website called safegrass that explains alot and is a very good read. If you are interested
https://www.safergrass.org/articles/index.html
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 7:59 pm:
Hello Karen,
Diane is incorrect, you can tell much about the NSC content of the hay by judging the maturity of the hay which relates to the cutting, at least in much of the world. I think Diane is confusing two different types of NSC's: digestible and non digestible. NSC stands for Non Structural Carbohydrates. Starches and simpler sugars are rapidly digestible forms of carbohydrates while there is a subgroup of NSC's which are non-digestible, most commonly the fructans.
The maturity of the hay greatly effects the amount of rapidly digestible carbohydrates present in the hay but the non digestible groups are a little more difficult to judge but in general they too will be lower in more mature hays.
Less mature cuttings, often which are second cuttings, are higher in non-structural carbohydrates, energy, and protein. You will find more on why this is at Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Forages for Horses, an Overview under the Hay heading.
While there is some good information on the Safegrass site I would be cautious. I have seen some improvements in the site over the years but many horse owner seems to come away from there thinking grass is the devil's invention. Better I think is our article Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Forage (Spring and Fall Pasture) Associated Founder.
Lastly as to how much NSC your horse will tolerate in unknown and will be a trial and error experience. However if you feed to keep your horse in a low 5 condition I think you are unlikely to have any trouble unless your horse has Cushings.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 8:54 pm:
Dr.O. while I agree with you for the most part, I have had the horses get sore on 1st crop and not on 2nd crop. If a horse is highly sensitive to the NSC's I don't think there is a way to tell for sure other than testing it, or for insurance soaking it.
MOST horses are not that sensitive, but there are some. I also agree that grass is good for horses mentally and physically, just as long as we are very careful with it..especially in the spring and fall... for the founder prone.
Karen Dr.O.'s articles are the best, a long with using good judgment (which is trial and error), When I got my horse down to a BCS of 5 he was much less sensitive... if he goes up to a 6 his diet starts again... or I up his exercise if possible. If he hits 7... guarantee laminitis pretty much no matter what I feed him.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 10:55 am:
Oh wow, Diane, I don't know if I'll EVER be able to get Perry to a BCS of 5!
I'll have to go back and review your horse weight reduction threads!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 11:45 am:
I believe quality and sugar content also depend on where the hay is raised, the particular years temps and rainfall and the type of hay it is...there are a lot of variables. In some areas, 1st crop is less desirable simply because it has more weeds in it. In our area, 1st cutting is usually the richest hay because it gets the most water and fertilizer, but it depends on the field and the year. Some of the grass hays don't look very good color wise, but are actually higher in sugars. I agree with Dr. O, the only way to really know is to get it tested.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 12:53 pm:
Very interesting Sara. Our first cutting grass hay (orchard or timothy) tends to be more mature, coarser and stemmier and contain lots of seed heads, and the 2nd and 3rd and 4th if we have a good year are very soft and fine. I've always taken that to mean that the 1st cutting has a lower NSC value.
I don't know whether the 1st cutting gets more fertilizer or if the farmers here apply it equally to each cutting, I will have to ask. Our hay growers rely on irrigation for everything after 1st cutting so I would guess that 1st gets the most water. We are lucky enough to have hay available that is weed free at all cuttings.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 1:49 pm:
I have learned that hay varies so much, even in the same field, and it really varies depending on where it is grown. Even locally the soils vary a lot frome one end of the valley to the other, especially in mineral content. Farmers around here, us included, drag/rake fields this time of year while the ground is still wet, but dry enough to get a tractor in the fields without causing damage. Then the fields are over seeded and fertilized. When the grass/alfalfa starts coming up, the fields are treated with a broad leaf weed killer to get rid of as many weeds as possible. Weed coming up along the fence lines are dug up/sprayed/burned - depending on what they are and where they are. Once the fields mature, the hay is cut and baled and the next crop comes up. The crops after the first crop seldom have anything done to them, except irrigation. Not all fields are irrigated with lines; some just get run-off irrigation which is done with flow from ditches running from a holding pond. The water comes from the mtns snow and rain. These fields are usually lush first crops, which each succeeding crop sparser, drier and sometimes weedier due to less and less water.
Soils vary greatly in mineral content as soils in the valley go from red sand to heavy clay. Some of the area was one marsh lands, which are heavy in minerals. The clay, alkali soils sometimes are low in selenium. So, imo hay should be tested so you know what you have.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 3:33 pm:
I agree with Sara, as I said above depending on how sensitive the horse is testing is about the only way to know for sure... if that isn't possible soaking it will at least take some of the sugars out.
I think Hay is like grass as far as NSC's and actually DrOught stricken, weedy first crop can be higher in NSC's than 2nd. As a rule tho 1st crop gets abundant spring rains and is lower in NFC's...and less "stressed" from the heat of the summer and DrOught, the problem being it isn't a guarantee. If your horse is extremely sensitive it could cause a problem. Hank and Sam are pretty sensitive when it comes to sugars and starch (with starch being worse) I have never had a problem with any grass hay, no matter the cutting as long as they aren't fat . If tipping the scales at a BCS of 7 I do watch there hay closely, if they don't particularly like the hay.. I feel reasonably confident it is low in sugars and starch.(my scientific method)
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 7:21 pm:
Good points. The stressed grass (not fertilized or watered) seems to be the most dangerous.
It is so interesting to me that with some hays, my horses want to eat them up, and with others, they turn their noses up and go on a hunger strike.
My Vet told me to feed the hay that the horses do not like to Perry who has been on laminitis watch since January 4th.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 8:52 pm:
Diane it is a well established fact that the more mature (the stemmier) the hay the lower the NSC's. Very mature hays are much lower in NSC's than leafy young hays. Again, it is the non-digestible component of NSC's that can be hard to evaluate by appearance.
I would also note that I have never felt the need to test hay for NSC's and have managed hundreds of these cases successfully over the years. Judging the maturity of the hay by appearance and managing the horses overall condition have been very successful for me. As to your experiences with foundering on mature hays, founder is a very complicated event in which the hay just pays one part. It is not as simple as you present so as to reach the conclusions you have with any confidence.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 9:15 pm:
But Dr.O. the question wasn't about stemmy hay the question was about cuttings... not all first crop is stemmy around here anyway, I have had first crop that was much nicer than second cut and vice versa. My comments were geared more towards not being able to tell which cutting might have less NSC's... Agreed stemmy, coarse hay is most likely low in NSC's no matter the cutting.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 8:11 pm:
I address your point in my first posting to try and educate Karen about the difference between the cutting and how that may figure into the maturity. This is further explained in the article I reference in that first posting. I am objecting to your first sentence in your first post which is incorrect.
DrO
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