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Discussion on Collateral Grooves and sole depth
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 11:12 pm:
It has been hypothesized by Pete R for one, that you can reliably tell your horses sole depth by the collateral groove. Personally I haven't found evidence of this in my flat foot. He has pretty deep CG's at the rear of his frog and very little depth at the tip of the frog. He has very thin soles in every x-ray I have had of his hooves. What about horses that have thrush and it causes the CG's to be deeper.
Can a flat foot have rock crunching hooves?? Not sure, maybe if there are no pathologies and the stars alighn right?
KC says deep CG's is a sign of retained sole, that makes a little more sense in my experience, when Hank had that false sole a couple years ago he had massive CG's HMMMMM
Here is the link Angie, the false sole statement is right below the pic of the hoof with the "bad" central suculus.
https://www.appliedequinepodiatry.org/Text_Files/Spring_showers.pdf
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 11:38 pm:
The link above doesn't want to work for some reason, this seems to. Sorry!
https://www.appliedequinepodiatry.org/Text_Files/Spring_showers
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 8:02 am:
Diane,
I am getting ready to go to Florida in a couple of days so it may be a week before I get into this discussion. But I am very interested in following it! I'll try to read the link later.
Just briefly; I thought if the CG are deeper in the back, and not deep near the tip of the frog, that pretty much tells us the coffin bone isn't at the right angle. And if it's tipped down (towards toe) then it would follow that the sole may be thinner there, right?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:38 am:
Going to Fla.!!! Jan. would have been a better month for that .
Yes that makes sense if there is rotation of the CB the sole would be thinner under the tip of it. All my horses seem to have about the same depth at the frog tho and even tho I have never had Flash x-rayed I know she has a thick sole and good concavity... she does have "rock crushers"
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 10:47 am:
Very interesting, Diane.
Thanks for this information and your observations.
I've certainly noticed variations in the CG depth with and after illnesses (and also built up false sole) or with treatment for foot problems.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 8:53 pm:
Diane, Florida will feel great, wind chills have been near zero here after having temps near 70 last week!
So, I am reading through the article. Very interesting. Not sure I agree with this "For instance when a horse is stabled part of the day and then turned out part of the day, the horse's feet are exposed to extremes in the environment going from very dry to very wet and back again. This constant wicking and soaking action is very damaging to the horn of both the inner and outer wall."
O.k., so what the heck are we supposed to do to manage to keep the environment ideal for hoofs? Most of don't have many options so that part of his discussion..well, I guess understand what he's saying, not sure if that's been proven though; the "soaking and wicking being damaging"
Lack of Heel purchase, very informative! I think is something very hard to understand. Harder to correct, I liked what he's saying here.
Not much elaboration on the "excessive false sole growth indicated by deep collateral grooves." Is he saying all the other things have to be going on too? Poor frog structure, deep central sulcus, under slung heels?
Not arguing folks! Trying to understand myself. Gem has under slung heels; and very fleshy frogs though. I am pretty sure she has poor heel purchase, yet not sure I would agree with false sole.
???
Maybe I can find time to post a picture of one of her hoofs to see what you think; false sole or not?
Article is going in my hoof file, thanks for the link Diane.
Just when I thought I knew something for sure, here we go again!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:06 pm:
From Ramey's "One Foot for All Seasons" article on his website.
..."For example; hard-working barefoot carriage horses and mounted patrol horses tend to “want” the flatter, thicker “concrete hooves” that mirror their working conditions. I allow it; even encourage it. I did worry in the past that these hooves might experience problems because they were too flat and too hard to function properly in the pasture, but I’ve yet to see any real-world problems occur that suggested there was inadequate circulation or hoof function...."
https://www.hoofrehab.com/seasons.htm
So Diane, flatter sole is ok depending upon the work and bedding environment. A more concave sole is seen in the article for hooves working on arena footing. Interesting.
I also bought one of these tools from this site:
https://www.precisionhoofpick.com/using-the-product.ph
...Because I'm a gadget freak I guess.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:16 pm:
I found the "using the tool" pictures and info interesting on the precision hoof pick site. Diva mare's hind soles must be pretty good judging by the collateral groove depth at the apex of the frog. The hoof pick site stated that collateral groove at the apex should be 1/2" to 3/4" and at the back 3/4"-1" for healthy sole "thickness". Hmmm. Unfortunately Diva mares front feet collateral grooves at the apex are still almost flat...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:17 pm:
70's next week for us, took some vacation time to enjoy some time in the saddle and get things caught up!
In all fairness we should put Pete's CG theory in here and after re-reading it again, I think he and KC are on the same page as far as false sole??
When Hank had that massive false sole after he foundered he was pretty sore until it came out, underneath it was thrushy, unhealthy sole. I think he needed the false sole at the time to protect the coffin bone... it was sitting pretty low.
It would make sense that excess sole material that does not exfoliate itself could cause problems.
Pete's article
https://www.hoofrehab.com/horses_sole.htm
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:33 pm:
Vicki maybe there is something to the CG depth, Just in the last month or so I have noticed Hanks isn't flat anymore, I couldn't have stuck a fingernail in there not long ago. .
Now there is some depth, and he does seem much less tender. I saw that hoof pick I was thinking about getting one
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:55 pm:
Here is a picture of Hanks hoof May 25th 2007, notice how the frog is buried and it LOOKS like there isn't much wall. YUCK he was quite sore at the time.
This was June 3rd around 1 weeks later it fell out, after I helped it along a little. He was much more comfortable.. even tho his hoof still looked VERY bad.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 10:27 pm:
Interesting isn't it?--this CG measurement indicating sole thickness. Hmmm.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 10:38 pm:
Very. How is Diva doing with her thin soles? Is she getting any better as far as soreness?
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 9:52 am:
All,
I have been reading this discussion with happy interest because it looks like you folks have been reading the articles on KC La Pierre's website.
So here are my comments:
False sole: The word in KC's article that helps explain this a little is "excessive". False sole is not a bad thing in small amounts and because it is protective and most like happens due to lack of exfoliation( which happens when there is a lack of movement) and or trauma/injury in the foot. I happen to like seeing some false sole, especially the first few times they are trimmed because it tells me I am going in the right direction. The problem lies in that some farriers do not just take just the false sole when trimming, they take some of the true sole plane as well, this leads to sore horses after trimming.
Collateral Groove depth: I do not think this is a one size fits all type of thing, you need to know whats going on with your horses feet, in order to make a judgement call. But in general, the more concavity you have the deeper the sole depth and the deeper the collateral grooves will be. This also leads to what PR and KC say about how much environment plays a part.
Environment: All of of on this thread know what an important thing environment is. And that means all aspects of it. From nutrition, to stabling, to exercise to turnout time. None of us are in the optimal situations for our horses health and well being, but we do the best we can. The trick is to understand what we are doing wrong and try to correct that, in some cases its the nutrition, in some cases its the conditioning ( horse and hoof). In many cases its thinking our horses are humans and treating them as such. We do things because it is convenient to do them a certain way, not because its in the best interest of the horse. But, our horses are very forgiving and they adapt. IMHO we need to let them do that with their feet as well.
When I was researching different trimming methods the one thing that made a difference in understanding which type of hoof professional I chose for my horses was what basis of comparison everyone was using to determine the perfect hoof. Pete Ramey, Jaime Jackson etc., used the wild feral horses as their models whose feet were definitely formed by their environment. K.C. La Pierre instead uses form and function along with the type of work (performance) and environment that a specific horse deals with on a daily basis. I look at PR and JJ as generalists and K.C. as a specialist (IMHO you need both). Since I own and train performance horses, his particular methodology seemed to be a better choice.
That said, a balanced hoof, no matter which method, works if all else falls into place as well. As long as we educate ourselves and attempt to manage our horses environment so that it best suits the horse, at least for our horses, life is as good as it gets.
We here on HA are constantly trying to tweak our horses environments and are not satisfied with the status quo, we aim to make things better and that will happen over time with education, practical experience, and patience.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 11:03 am:
Rachelle,
Thanks so much for your take on this. Explaining what you see as the difference between PR, JJ, and KC is very thought provoking. I now see that I don't need to keep trying for a certain hoof form to mimic the wild horse hoof as it may not be correct for what I have here: Mostly flat hard ground, and sometimes muddy ground. Even our "gravel road" is more sand than gravel except on those rare occasions the road grader comes by!
I know some of my 16 hoofs need to change yet, but I think after reading this, as well as the wonderful links everyone takes time to research and post here (thanks folks!)I can be a little more tolerant of what I've been seeing and trying to change, as well as leaving some things alone more!
I do have a question for you Rachelle; and I will research this myself when I get time but would like your thoughts on it:
On a hoof with good CG depth STARTING towards the heel, but a still underslung heel, IYO, is it o.k. to just keep backing the toe up and I assume,eventually the heel point/heel triangle, will back up? And the heel structure will be supportive of the hoof/horse at that point?
Or do you think some horses just stay with that hoof form? In my case with Gem, she had no hoof care at a young age, came to us I swear less than a 1 on the Hen-whatever-scale, and I seem to recall you saying one time that we shouldn't try to change everything if the horse is older. She's around 7 now.
In the case of Hank (see Diane, I am not trying to take over your wonderful discussion, bear with me, ) his hoof form changed due to founder, and is in a recovery stage.
So in his case, it's seems we would want everything back in place because the inner hoof structure, like at the heels, did support it for years, and can again...but a horse that has years of "misunderstood" hoof form, perhaps the structure will never be strong enough?
Hope that makes sense what I am explaining and asking.
I need to read more of what KC thinks...does he have a book out?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 1:23 pm:
Angie I think the mechanics don't matter how they got there, getting them back is difficult in some cases. I think I will be able to get Sam's back easily... Hanks not so much. I don't know why for sure. Sam has a tinier, tighter hoof, concave, more sole, then Hank and if kept optimal rarely flares. Hank on the other hand can flare overnight regardless and his toe seems to grow an inch a week. Once again today I really took them back, and in a week I bet it is right back where it was. sigh.... I have been beveling twice a week and it seems I should do it everynight, maybe at this point I should.
I think Dr.O's article on LTLH says sometimes it can be impossible to get them back to normal, I think that is what I am dealing with with Hank, I am still optimistic tho that at least I can get him to optimal for his hoof.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 2:56 pm:
Angie,
Do you remember the comments you made when you first looked at Dr. Reddens video? You thought it was way too aggressive. IMHO, I thought it was perfect. So, to answer your question which I think you answered for yourself is that yes, I think continually backing the toe up will help correct the underslung heels by moving the heel point back, however you need to do it aggressively enough (or frequently enough) so that you accomplish something or you will never get the hoof you are after.
I also think that once you get the feet to where they should be, it will be easier to keep them there and have them grow properly.
Does Gem have conformational issues?
Maybe we need to start a Gem thread, post pictures etc. So we can stop taking up Diane's space. She has so little left.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 3:03 pm:
Rachelle this isn't "my" thread, nor about Hank, it is just a general question for all.
I am out of PARTS on Hanks hoof Critique, I sure could use a few more tho.. I am struggling
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 4:26 pm:
I actually have been trying to apply the Redden method once I got past my um, shock, it made sense. I wasn't getting results with just beveling and beveling. Not sure if I am doing it correctly or not yet.
Leaving tomorrow afternoon, will be back next Sunday probably. I agree, Gem needs her own discussion and pictures, Tango too.
Diane,
Sometimes I don't want read your discussions! I think I am humming along doing just fine, and ya gotta go question something, or point out something!  And ya, I know I kinda was part of this one.
I actually love you guys for your knowledge and inquiring minds. I'd be worried if we all ran out of questions and "what ifs."
The friend who is caring for our critters for the next week is getting into barefoot trimming, so I will be helping teach her and learn more with looking at new hoofs. Plus she has some contacts who have been to PR clinics; whoda thunk that in the U.P., aye?!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 5:26 pm:
Hmmm Diane,
Must be having a senior moment. Did Dr. O ever tell you to limit your "parts" or is this an unwritten( or self imposed rule). I would have thought that as long as the information was important that you could continue as many threads as needed.
With this discussion I just assumed even though it was just a question, the discussion still belonged to you and as such we should try and stay within those boundaries.
I too like your discussions because they challenge me to think outside the box on subjects that I might not have to think about or collect my thoughts on and this forum allows me to put those hopefully organized collected thoughts down in a way that makes sense to maybe more than just me.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 6:21 pm:
You are not senile Rachelle Dr.O. hasn't cut me off YET. I have self limited myself on Hanks parts, I have been itching to put new pics up with questions tho, at least I am developing some self control He just has such a challenging hoof for my novice experience...it is hard!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 8:19 pm:
Diane,
You and your observations about your horses are a main reason that I try to read HA each day, so do not try to restrain yourself!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 10:16 pm:
Thanks Vicki, I TRY to restrain myself, but it doesn't work. So many Smart brains on here to pick it's hard not to!
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Monday, Apr 5, 2010 - 3:31 pm:
I've heard, that KC is going to publish new version of his old book .
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