|
|
Discussion on Clover hay
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
leslie1
|
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 10:54 am:
This year, here in central Ky, we are covered up in clover...my hay guy tells me the field he uses for my hay is full of red clover  ...its normally an alfalfa field. and the hay I get from him is nice and clean.
Is the clover harder to cure than alfalfa?
I am already worried about next winters hay quality due to all this clover. BAH!!
leslie
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 2:05 pm:
Hi Leslie, I think you know by now how I feel about clover . In general, yes clover hay is harder to get cured and tends to be quite dusty. That said my horses love clover hay, if the drying conditions are perfect you can get some nice hay with no problems... you may have some slobbering tho
|
Member:
leslie1
|
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 2:43 pm:
 ha D. I do think I know. ...and Im begining to see why.
Lara and the pony are now officially easy keepers, so I have to change my management routine...but this year there is absolutely no plain grass hay to be had. Its all clover, everywhere. And the ones that have killed the clover are charging an arm and a leg... 8 bucks a bale atleast around here.
My pastures are full of it too, so I keep my girls muzzled most of the time now. The rain has been non-stop so I am only using my tiniest pasture, just to keep it grazed down...and still they need muzzles.
horses have been foundering around here left and right this year...they are all a bunch of fatties. and the clover isnt helping.
And whats weird is the people wont put them in muzzles or restrict their intake, they just let em eat till they pop. or founder.
Also whats creepy is its a white clover. So I am not sure if its aslike that is everywhere ... Maybe if it is alsike then that is whats causing all the founders?
K, I just freaked myself out. Im going to go walk my pastures again and take clover samples...just to see if its the Ladino or alsike.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 2:55 pm:
LOL Leslie, I just went on a spraying rampage yesterday again in a different pasture that was full of clover and I use in the fall. I don't think it matters the type of clover, it all is full of starch. My pastures were full of both, since getting rid of it not a Digital pulse to be felt or a slobber!
Alsike tends to bring on the photosensitivity and can be hard on the liver. White clover from my research has it's own set of problems too... but it's ALL fattening  .
|
Member:
cometrdr
|
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 7:09 pm:
you are both spoiled rotten.
move to AZ where you ride bitless all spring - hoping to see some green stuff on the trails - in neighbors yards on the side of the road, anywhere and when there is clover by the wet wash - RUN FOR IT before it dries out and dies. yes - Grass hay here is 15 bucks a bale - so buck up - buy the grass and be thankful for what you got!!! I sure am.
|
Member:
leslie1
|
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 10:15 pm:
<grin> Sorry Muffi but I moved from Prescott to KY...and would MUCH rather have the AZ hay then the hit or miss KY stuff. MUCH!! Like...a million times over!!! and I didnt mind paying for the AZ hay, cuz it was always clean, non moldy and the bales were 100lbs.
ahhhh the good old days...
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 6:26 am:
I would gladly ship the evil clover to AZ. The land of good and plenty brings it's own problems. I can't find cheap hay anymore either. Last year my grass hay was $3 a 40# bale, the cows got half of it due to mold and poor quality. This year it is running $4 for a 40# bale and hopefully at least half of it will be useable. So depending on waste and the weight of your bales, yours probably isn't that much more expensive.
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 6:43 am:
Hey now, ya'll quite yur complaining! I will be thankful for ANY hay I get this summer. We have got extremely dry conditions again, this will be the 3rd summer. Last years hay was half brown, $3 bale, maybe 40 pounds. About 30% of it was some kind of weed seeds the horses wouldn't eat, made a mess when fed on the stall floors, or in the boxes.
I am afraid to even think of the cost of shipping it from another state. Not to mention the fear of what I will be getting!
The funny/sad part is, the pastures are soo lush right now (Moisture from all the fog we've been having?)that I am limiting grazing and feeding the darn hay at night!
Can't win sometimes!
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 7:09 am:
I found a guy that will deliver hay, put it in the barn for $4, I almost cried at the thought of paying that much. but after he got it here, stacked it while I WATCHED I decided it was well worth it Haven't found a bad bale yet. He delivers 50 bales at a time whenever we want it. With the demise of the clover, the horses can finally graze way more than usual, so hoping I won't need much hay through the summer anyway. I'm glad we at least have the cows to give the crappy hay to, if I would have to throw out all the bad hay I had it would have made me sick.
Horses are becoming quite an expensive luxury anymore with the price of everything. Actually any companion animals are getting expensive.
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 7:55 am:
I just googled hay for sale upper MI, and sent an email off to someone who had good sounding hay. LAST years hay, but sending feelers out early is good. Old hay is better than NO hay! And delivery is a must for us, if we haul a load at a time with our ancient flatbed Ford, we need to fill the gas tank every time we pass a pump! Not to mention handling the bales to load, unload, and stack.
I love our current supplier, he also delivers, 300 bales a crack, and him and his sons unload, we stack in the barn. Then we all share a cold beer afterwards. No extra for delivery. And he delivers on our schedule, a must for us.
With a slow feeder, I can afford to pay more, because I should be able to buy less...theoretically speaking of course. Too afraid of the economy to NOT fill the barn.
Clover; my track has clover sprouting up constantly this year, horses keep it nibbled down. So far, so good.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 8:14 am:
I suppose the cost of hay is all perspective. The county we live in has an average wage of less than $10 an hour. Minimum wage jobs are the norm. Really no big manufacturers around, just service jobs for the tourists . If we weren't a 2 income family, the horses would not be affordable.. I have already scaled back on things I normally wouldn't to be able to afford them. Hay is a big part of their expense, don't see things improving in the near future either. Think my job is going to be eliminated in a year or 2 at the most...then it should be interesting.
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 10:45 am:
WARNING about sweet clover in hay!!! It can be VERY dangerous if not cured correctly. The inside of the stems can actually make an anticoagulant that prevents blood clotting. The hay can look just fine on the outside, you would never know there was a problem with it.
I learned this the hard way, worked on a farm in CO where we always had trouble finding good hay that wasn't straight alfalfa. Found this great grass clover mix, looked lovely, smelled lovely and the horses loved it. Had a few mild gas colics from it (another danger, but not more than any other rich hay). One however ended very badly. Was a mare with a new foal by her side, had a gas colic, rolled, and ruptured something inside, bled to death internally in a very short amount of time (confirmed via necropsy).
Did some research and found out about the anti-clotting thing, went out and started pulling blood on all the horses to check clot times. Every one I checked (about 40 out of 100) had clot times in excess of 10 minutes (normal < 1 minute).
I would avoid clover hay at all costs.
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 5:27 pm:
Just wanted to post a followup, below is a link to an article in the Merck vet manual about sweet clover hay poisoning:
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/213800.htm
Note the passage: Although well-cured sweet clover is not dangerous, the absence of visible spoilage is insufficient evidence of safety.
Dr. O I would be curious if you have run into this at all? Our local feed store actually sells a 'hay and pasture mix' seed that has clover in it. I'm not sure if it is a safe strain of clover or what.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 5:46 pm:
Interesting Shannon, I hate clover more and more every day, though the clover that was in my pasture was fresh, the myriad of nasty things I had going on with my horses have disappeared. While they still tend to be fat (and I watch that) their IR symptoms are pretty much gone..they seem to have "normal" fat now, and NEVER a digital pulseeven on nice green grass!
|
Member:
cometrdr
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 7:30 pm:
hmmm - the green clover with the white flowers the stuff that grows really tall if you let it - does that have the same issue as the short clover in clotting? I assume you talking the stuff you raid the old 4 leaf clovers off of? with the purple pom pom type flowers?
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 7:39 am:
No Shannon, I have not seen any coumarin dependent clover poisoning in horses and reviewing the last 50 years of veterinary articles in PubMed I do not find any cases.
Clover coumarin poisoning is primarily a problem in ruminants. Horses are less susceptible. Dicumarol formation from coumarins occurs during spoilage of the clover and I suspect that unlike the poisoning of ruminants, to poison horses the clover would have to be noticeably spoiled. This might explain the rarity of equine cases. An internal rupture of a blood vessel is not really a disease of insufficient coagulation and I would be interested in how you ran the clot testing.
I think it is important to note here that clover is an important and nutritional feed stuff that tens of thousands of horses graze safely every year. The key to safely feeding clover, and any feedstuff, is to understand its strengths and weaknesses and the proper place in the diet of your horse based on the horses requirements. For more on this see HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Alfalfa, Clover: Legumes in the Horse's Diet.
DrO
|
Member:
mysi
|
Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 7:57 am:
My horses all eat white clover in my pastures all spring, summer and fall, at a 50/50 mix with fescue and I have never had any issues accept the occasional drulling mid summer.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 8:06 am:
There is still some clover in my pasture, it is closer to 10% total, before I killed it my pastures were probably 80% clover. I don't mind the horses having a LITTLE clover, but having it as a steady diet is bad for my easykeepers. Like Dr.O. has said many horses can live just fine on it, don't think it is good for easy keepers prone to laminitis or metabolic upset.
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 12:11 pm:
I like clover for pasture, and graze our horses on it. As I understand it this is an issue with hay only. Important to note that there are many different kinds of clover, sweet clover as I understand it specifically is the culprit in this case.
Dr. O to test clot times I pulled blood from the horses directly into clot tubes we got from our vets, and if I recall correctly the process was inverting the tube like every 30 seconds over and over waiting for the blood to coagulate. Our clot times were all 10 times or more what they should have been, and some never completely clotted at all. Our vets gave vitamin K injections to what they deemed to be the most critical cases but I believe those carry a high risk of anaphylactic response for some reason so we didn't give it to all the horses.
The hay had no outward indication of spoilage, and we had been feeding it for about two to three months. The problem was attributed to sweet clover poisoning due to the fact that there was sweet clover in the hay and a lack of anything else to pin it on.
This was about 12 years ago so my memory is not as fresh as I would like. I would love to know more about this and if there is anything else the problem might have been caused by.
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 12:23 pm:
Muffi to answer your question I believe from some googling sweet clover is the stuff that grows really tall, but I am TERRIBLE at plant IDs so can't answer with any degree of certainty =)
|
Member:
leslie1
|
Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 12:51 pm:
I dont mind having the ladino clover(white) in my pastures, I just have to use muzzles on these 2 particular horses.
I am however, worried about the hay quality this coming winter, due to clover. I have a feeling its going to be moldy ...more often than not.
|
Member:
paul303
|
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 1:14 am:
I had a problem with Alsike clover that took over my pastures 2 years ago. I had been treating what I thought was "scratches", for two "pasture seasons" in a row....the "scratches", disappeared in winter ( muddy, wet, winters ). None of the OTC or vet prescribed medications helped.
I finally linked it to the clover bloom in my pasture. It was Alsike clover. My pink skinned leopard app was worst. Then my appendix light chestnut QH. Their fetlocks were full of oozy, cracked, scabbed painful skin. They had sores on their muzzels, in their nostrils and on their lips.
When I stopped treating "scratches", and pulled them off the clover ravaged...the pasture - then outfitted them with uv protective leg wraps and fly masks and sunscreen......They improved immediately...almost overnight.
I have my pasture sprayed for the clover ( it gets rid of most weeds ). If I see a clover bloom, I grab some Ortho "lawn weed killer" and spray the area and fence it off. Knock wood, I haven't had the photosensitivity problem since.
This problem seems to come from the Alsike clover only. It has a white flower, and plain green leaves....no white "chevron" on the green leaves. In my experience, it does not seem to grow tall....but I DO mow a lot.
Also, not ALL horses seem to be suseptible to this photosensitivity problem. The ones that are, I'm beginning to think that repeat exposure could be a factor. Three years ago, we began to have some really cool wet springs and summers in NJ. The Alsike clover began to proliferate. At first, I welcomed it....I knew the horses would LOVE it. The next year, the pasture was 60 to 80% Alsike. The horses fetlocks blew up, became hot and scarlet red and oozed through painful sores. I treated it as "scratches" that whole first year. I had no results until I wrapped the entire lower leg....every day. Eventually, I linked it to the Alsike clover and photosensitivity.
It's probably good advice, to go on the internet and google everything that "horses and alsike clover" can turn up.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 7:44 am:
Lee we have an article that covers Alsike clover and how to differentiate it from other clovers. The problem there is a fairly well characterized disease resulting in, as you found, photosensitization.
Shannon there are many factors that would effect such a test and the outcome. The ambient temperature outside, whether the tubes were glass or plastic, the cleanliness of the stick, etc... I am not aware of the any work that suggests this would be a valid way to access coagulopathies. That said folks should take your main point to heart that hays of all kinds can be dangerous to a horses health if not properly cured.
DrO
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 11:21 am:
Interesting Dr. O. I can't answer all the questions but I know we did follow clean stick procedures (shaved and swabbed), and it was mid-summer in Colorado so the temps would have been somewhere between 70 and 80° give or take. I don't remember if the tubes were glass or plastic. I do remember there was something we couldn't do due to lack of equipment (maybe incubate the samples?).
Despite that, the reaction from our vets indicated that the tests were diagnostic for inhibited clotting. Of course we weren't in a lab and didn't have any control animals to compare to so there is some additional room for doubt.
The thing that scared me most about this was that the hay appeared fine, there was no outward evidence of spoilage. We frequently had problems with moldy hay so were diligent about checking.
However it sounds like you are saying it would not be possible for clover hay that was not outwardly spoiled to cause this problem in horses .. is that right? It would be good to know if this is not a concern as I have always wondered about it.
Assuming the clot tests were valid, is there something else that would cause inhibited clotting? This was a closed facility (no outside horses coming in), and the horses were fed hay, straight oats, sho-glo and e/se supplements, and psyllium one week a month. No other unusual health problems aside from a fairly high incidence of sand colic due to living conditions.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2010 - 10:26 am:
Shannon, I have never seen this recommendation for diagnosing coagulopathies in the horse and doing a bunch of research for the initial posting above still have not seen such a test as being recommended. You collect blood in a clot tube and it clots but I have always assumed the uncontrolled variables make the time to clotting very variable and not a reliable indicator of coagulopathies. Also of importance is that there is there is a transitional state of not clotted and clotted. This occurs over time and if left undisturbed the clot contracts and leaves behind the clot and free serum. But for a good long time there are enough RBCs not tied up in the clot so that they will mix with the serum making it look very much like whole blood. This leaves you with the questions of when do you call the blood clotted exactly?
As to other possible causes once you get beyond a complication of other serious disease, rodenticides, and inherited defects I draw a blank.
DrO
|
|
|
