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Discussion on BF Trimming: Contradictions, Observations, TRUTHS?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 6, 2010 - 12:50 pm:
Hey Guys,
Cooped up with rain and extreme humidity. So I've been reviewing tons of printouts, pictures, some youtube videos, and websites.
And finding myself annoyed, amused, and angry at times! Seems to be a different viewpoint on "how to do" each and every part of the hoof!
Some of this is a bit tongue in cheek but I hope we can come up with some things we all agree on.
The frog:
Never cut on it, let it exfoliate.
Trim off any loose or ragged parts.
Taper it from the apex back; anything high is applying pressure inside the hoof/foot. The frog is after all pretty darn hard and can be a source of discomfort.
Beveling:
Bevel from the bottom only. Put a steeper bevel on the toe and at flared areas of the hoof wall. "Mustang Roll."
Bevel from the top. Leave as much of the outer hoof wall as possible. Beveling from the top leaves more for the horse to walk on. (happyhoofgal)
Outer wall:
It's o.k. to rasp the bottom 3rd of the outer hoof to pretty the hoof up and take off flares.
Don't take off any outer hoof wall as it protects the hoof by maintaining the right amount of moisture in the hoof and protects the softer parts of the hoof.
Long toe/run under heels:
Fix by backing the toe vertically. Don't worry too much about the bars, they will fix themselves as the hoof reshapes itself.
Do the bars once when backing the toe then leave them alone for support.
Just keep a nice bevel on the toe and address the bars because the bars are pushing the toe forward and dragging the heel point forward.
Rocker the toe; leaving "the pillars" for support.
The horse needs the whole hoof for support; wall, sole, frog, bars, the pillars are not enough support.
Quarters:
Scoop them out with your knife or rasp.
Bevel from the outside and get a natural scoop as you bevel.
Leave the same as the rest of the hoof and let them break out if they need to.
Sole:
Never take anything out of the sole. Same as with the frog, let it exfoliate.
It's o.k. to take off "false sole" or high spots.
Environment:
Dry is best. Keeps hoof rock hard.
Horses should have water to stand in or cross daily to keep hoofs moist.
Wet/dry is bad because the hoof can't adjust quickly and it weakens the hoof wall.
ETC.!! ETC.!!
I've become a beveling fool. And obsessed with bars. And I've been thinking: For years and YEARS I paid someone to give my horses a "pasture trim." I stood holding my horses as someone trimmed them. I never paid any attention to the bevel (was there any?) the bars, or if the frog was sliced off any place. My horses ran off soundly afterwards. The couple I've owned who had lameness off and on, had the lameness before and after trimming.
I don't remember severe cracks, thrush, WLD. I had a horse that we shod in front because he was ouchy on gravel but he had been a stallion til age 7, and lived pretty much stalled up until we bought him. Made sense his hoofs were not the best.
Up until 3 1/2 years ago, my horses got trimmed about every 49 days during the riding months, and went as long as 12 weeks in the winter. No one was lame, or ouchy. My Arab mare Willow, who has always had HARD rock crunching hoofs, used to get 1/2" to 3/4" of hoof wall nippered off. She always moved well. I would suppose the longer hoof was not as comfortable or a good thing for her joints and tendons, but it worked.
My questions: What is the TRUTH about barefoot trimming? Which methods work 100% of the time? Do these things above make any difference? So many different ideas out there it makes your head spin!
Shouldn't it be as simple as take off excess wall, loose frog parts, and do it on a timely basis? Maybe a bit of a bevel as that makes sense to slow down how soon chipping starts?
And maybe if we rode more and trimmed less... 
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Member:
lilly
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 6, 2010 - 1:19 pm:
I know what you mean. My mare Isabella has hooves that play by their own set of rules! They look like they never grow but x-rays reveal that the toes grows forward much faster than the walls grow down. She is very flat footed and has gone dead lame when the hoof wall was trimmed too short. If she stands in any amount of water, her thrush starts up. Every winter, the frog on her right front foot gets a deep groove that goes deeper and deeper into the heal. The only thing that stops it proceeding deeper is summertime dryness. Whenever I see a draft cross I pick its feet up to see if they look like Isabella's. Why? Misery loves company!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 6, 2010 - 4:26 pm:
Angie I think the ans. is it depends I don't feel there is a specific trim to meet all horses needs. Sam and Flash do just fine with a "pasture trim" and up until Sam foundered this year he really didn't have much for flares, I have NEVER seen a flare on the old mares hooves, if there is one on the back hooves because we can't trim them they break off at their own discretion, which they are in the process of doing now, very interesting to watch the progression.
Special hooved Hank needs a little more attention, but then again I don't get over zealous about much.
The bars don't concern me as much as they do you, I have seen my horses hooves basically trim there own if one gets out of control, I trim it back a little. If Sam's quarters start breaking out from his pasture trim they actually do a decent job of self correcting. Last month before the farrier came he broke off all his flares and busted his quarters out bad, his hoof looked horrible, he was on his sole pretty much all around, however HE can tolerate that, Hank can't.
Honestly if you have a good hoof to start with I don't think they need a "barefoot" trim. Years ago we did the basic pasture trim and until the founder hit from I suspect the clover, I didn't have any problems at all, we put shoes on in the summer because we rode so much the hooves would get too short, In the off riding season they were barefoot, never had a problem at all.... So YES more exercise and less thinking about hooves would probably solve quite a few of our problems IMHO.
I find many of the concepts fascinating to say the least, just have to pick the one that suits that particular horse and his hoof. I think a healthy hoof pretty much takes care of itself as far as thrush, shedding ect.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 11:57 am:
Hi Angie,
This is interesting to me. I do not try to mess with my horses' hooves because I have been lucky to have good trimmers/farriers.
One thing I do remember from the time my horses wore shoes in the summer but not in the winter is that the farrier was extremely conservative when trimming for the winter. He would say to me: "I won't take off more, because you would be mad a me for making your horses sore." In the 20 years I have been owning horses, I have never had a horse sore after trimming.
I have the hooves done regularly every 8 weeks - sometimes stretching to 9 weeks because of circumstances, throughout the year. Both the people I have used have been trained farriers, but also seem to know how to trim barefoot horses.
Since all these discussions and photos on HA I have tried to pay more attention to the details. This is what my trimmer does:
The frog: she trims loose & ragged parts when the frogs are shedding, but only then.
Beveling: After all the trimming and rasping is done, she puts the hoof on the stand and bevels from the top - does not rasp the outer wall except for the bevel.
Bars: Rarely does anything to the bars, except that she rasps the entire bottom of the hoof - so, if the bars where protruding, they would probably end up even with the hoof wall.
Sole: Does trim the sole lightly when it is shedding anyway - just to get rid of the loose parts.
Environment: We are in a semi-desert environment in Colorado. Before the last trim, I went ahead and cleaned the feet about 1/2 hour before she was due. She then told me that she would prefer I not clean the feet because even in 1/2 hour the horn would dry out and make her job harder.
In general, rarely has either one of my trimmers taken more than about 1/4 inch of hoof wall.
Lastly: Diane - what is the difference between a "pasture trim" and a "barefoot trim"?
My first attempt at hoof photos of my mare, Moonlight, is in a separate thread in this area.
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/354016.html
Happy trimming, everyone,
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 7:39 pm:
Lilo they are just different labels, I believe the biggest difference is the "barefoot trim" is beveled all around, mustang rolled whatever you want to call it! the "pasture trim" leaves the wall flat at the bottom. That's my take on it in a nutshell anyway.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 8:35 pm:
So guys, I think what I will do is go back to the beginning. The first book I bought was Jamie Jackson's "Horse Owner's Guide to Natural Hoof Care." Of course the first time I read it I felt overwhelmed and thought I'd never understand most of it! Whoever said teaching yourself trimming is like learning a foreign language wasn't kidding.
Rereading Jackson's book this time sure was an eye opener how far I have come! And it also made me realise I have been way too critical and analytical (HA, rhymes, lol! And that does describe me to a "T" when learning something!) about the whole hoof trimming bit. I am going sit back a bit and wait and see what happens with all 16 of those hoofs.
I can't sit back too long though because I don't own a nippers...;-). But I am done trying for some ideal modeled after a mustang hoof. Or any one specific method promoted by this one or that one.
Thanks for letting me bounce this around on here DrO, and the feedback from you guys. I needed that!
Stay tuned for Angie's Trimming "My Way" Video, LOL!!
JUST KIDDING!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2010 - 8:58 am:
Hey, Angie,
Thanks for taking your time to continue to work on this.
I know that I've learned from you and others who have spent time bouncing this stuff around!
For me trying to read the books is still pretty overwhelming.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2010 - 9:43 am:
Thanks Vicki. If everyone who wants/needs to trim their own hoofs can learn to do so successfully, then all of us on HA who have posted questions, comments, and all those pictures, along with DrO's articles & pictures & feedback, then we all deserve a big thank you!
And our horses are the winners; and that's what it's all about, right?!
I find that on YouTube, the happyhoofgal videos are pretty good. She seems to respond to comments posted and isn't afraid to say she don't know it all, and if she made a mistake. I don't know if she's trained under anyone or is self taught. Seeing an actual trim being done beats reading about it anytime! And she addresses different issues on different videos. I think she has like 45?
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2010 - 11:08 am:
Thanks, Angie.
I will check this out.
I certainly need to do a lot of watching!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2010 - 11:54 pm:
Angie, I just came upon this discussion tonight, and frankly, I feel a kindred spirit with you! I have been trying so hard, and this week, 3 of my 4 horses were lame. Boy o boy. The only one not lame was the one without shoes in her entire life.
I think the #1 thing for hooves is movement, and mine aren't getting their normal movement since they have been locked up in this dadgum dry lot for 1/2 of every day to keep them thinner. Thinner they are, but their feet are a mess! The one horse, I picked up his feet and suddenly all this exfoliating sole came off, it was literally unbelievable. I have been so worried about not removing sole, which is the BF mantra never to do, and here was this foot begging me to exfoliate the entire sole - on all 4 feet! The bars were then massive, about 1/2" by 1/2", and I just made up my mind and cut those babies down to the new sole level, and found all sorts of gross and disgusting black areas in this bar area which I cut out. I felt like a heathen, but I could tell it was all rotten foot.
To make a long story short, after I was done, I only had TWO lame horses - this one trotted off sound on gravel. I would not have believed it!
Diane is correct - we have to do what is right for EACH horse, and not try to make this model foot. NO BF method work 100% of the time, nor do shoes work 100% of the time. However, the best way to have a BF horse is 1. genetics 2. never shoe them. Once a horse has been shod for a long time, I think it reduces their chances of going BF.
Just MHO!
Nancy
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2010 - 8:52 am:
Oh wow Nancy, scary isn't it when it seems every horse has something going on? I know the feeling of despair when I've thought I messed up, and ruined one of my horses! Or as I've said before when it comes to trimming: "Blood, sweat and tears." The blood on my hands, NEVER (KNOCK ON WOOD) from a hoof!
Any time I see one of my horses "off" a bit, or notice some swelling, my first thought is "what did I do wrong trimming?"
In my limited experience (3 1/2 years now) I find that most issues resolve themselves just as you have found. Even taking a hoof too short; the hoof does grow out again. A too short toe, less than a week. A too short heel, longer but it still can be fixed.
I think we are in the same boat with feeding horses, lack of movement. Mine are LOOKING at grass a foot tall in spots, but I am feeding hay! I am not even using my slow feeders but sprinkling the hay around the track in hopes they move and loose some weight. It's been so horribly muggy and wet here, along with the mosquitoes, that all I can manage is trying to lunge the heaviest ones a bit. My one mare actually fell on the lunge line because the arena was so slick.
I made a vow not to touch my horses hoofs for 4 weeks. Not touch with a knife or rasp anyhow. Because it's been so wet I have been cleaning the hoofs, and spraying with Tea Tree Oil or applying White Lightening Gel depending on the hoof. It will be interesting to see what the hoofs show me after 4 weeks of not being micromanaged! I may have what you've got right now; false sole, crappy frogs, big bars...I'll update in a couple of weeks.
Hope all 4 of yours are sound soon!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2010 - 11:03 am:
OK, Angie!!! LOL - we'll see if both of us can stay "hands off" for 4 weeks after I get done with my QH today. I know that it's the movement for mine, I know it is. I keep thinking, that these other people are experts, and then I think - hey these are my horses, at my place, and how the heck can they know more about them than I do? I frankly, I am SICK SICK SICK of these so-called experts saying - "balance the hoof, you'll have no problems" "add Cu and Zn, you'll cure thrush in 2 weeks" "balance you hay, soak your hay, don't feed "X" - oh no DO feed "X"" - they even argue about whether the chelated forms of minerals are better than others!!!
We (meaning me!) need to Get A Life and quit micromanaging our horses. Let's face it, Dr.O backs up his advice with scientific articles, these other barefoot and nutritional people just spew out information and what are their qualifications, really?? What scientific evidence can they point to that their advice is really sound? And if you ask them questions, their reply often is " you're not a good horse owner if you don't follow MY advice" LOL!! It makes me think of the time someone told me that my mare would do better if they "trained" her for me - by that they meant beating the tar out of her!! And instead I went to HA and found that maybe she wasn't cantering well because she has EPSM - and I researched it, supplemented her, and now she's fine. the "trainer" just wanted my $$$.
Dr. O does not SELL his advice or education, he presents it in a logical fashion and it's up to us to read the articles and take the correct action.
Anyway, I am ranting but I know you understand!! I am going "hoof free" and we can touch base if we have "trimmer withdrawl synDrOme" or TWS.... lol!
nancy
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2010 - 3:20 pm:
"TWS??" OMG, Nancy, I am so laughing right now, your rant made my day! I do understand!
If you read my other discussion about moisture in hay, you know that I too am about at the end of my lunge line (hey, 35' instead of 8' is needed here, lol!) with all the information overload. I am not by any means discrediting anyones experiences/experiments, but as you put it "hey these are my horses, at my place" and it is enough to drive ya crazy if you try to follow it (all the different views) all.
I don't know at what point I decided that I needed to 2nd guess my trimming, my pasture practices, my training, but I do know that it seems I have more things going wrong because I am looking for something to BE WRONG!
I've even thought of cancelling my HA membership just to give my brain a rest, lol! Yet there is no other place on the web like HA, so I'll be here for a few years yet probably ;-).
I am not yet experiencing TWS, but it's getting close: I had to check a wound/swelling on the Gem's lower leg today, and ALMOST got my knife my out to tweak those bars!!! Had to take a few deep breaths, tell myself I was busy fixing more of the fence (that got struck by lightening last week) and NO NO KNIFE WORK, lol!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2010 - 5:01 pm:
Oh Angie, here's another one "OTA" - Overtrimmers Anonymous! Is that funny or what - a friend told me that one.
There is literally NO WAY we can do everything that is out there - and mostly because it is so contradictory!!! Let alone the expense!
Yes, we do look for things to "be wrong" - I think it's a fine line between being able to stand back and evaluate ourselves OR taking the attitude "I can't do ANYTHING right"! At least it is for me. And it does not help that Everyone Has An Opinion and By Gum THEY Are The RIGHT Ones -- oh gosh!!! It's like my husband's joke about 2 horse people having three opinions between them - or his other - Q:"how do you make a small fortune with horses" - A : "Start with a large one!"
when something goes wrong for me, like the laminitis this spring, when I ask for opinions and advice, some how people interpret my questions as ignorance, rather than as fact finding.I don't know what it is that everyone has a "ready made solution for only $19.95" or should I say $1,095.00!
Keep busy and go to your local OTA meetings - I'm sure there's one around you - !!!
Nancy
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2010 - 5:28 pm:
I recently read a really good article somewhere about the folly of people who have horses drawing overall conclusions based upon one experience with one horse.
It was really a good article and I wish that I could remember where to find it.
Early on I realized how many "experts" are out there, but can tell you that I've gotten into trouble following some of their advice.
Now I look a whole lot harder and longer at everything and listen to my common sense and look for information that is proven (in more than a few cases), such as advanced by Dr. O.
Dr. O and HA is a good resource that helps to remain grounded while also sharing experiences.
It is important to keep learning while being open-minded.
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