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  Discussion on Wholefood vit/min source?
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New Member:
equick

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2010 - 2:36 am:

Dear All,
I am totally new here and so am sorry if I mess up the posting and also thank you to all of you who will help. I joined because when researching online I ended up on this site many times and so figured maybe it is time to ask somebody who really understands. There are so many information out there, it is difficult to know. Especially being in the Czech Republic where finding a good veterinarian when problem is difficult. Most of the time you just hear that they do not know and have never seen "this".
My question might be a strange one - sorry for that! I am trying to avoid feeding processed feed to my horses. Currently they get a balancer, however would really like to replace that as well. I have read your feeding advice about water, salt block, quality hay etc. If a horse is getting that and also some flax, oats, beet pulp - what would be a good wholesome and natural source of a vit/min "supplement" so i would not have to feed any processed feeds and/or synthetic vit/min supplements? I have read a lot about spirulina, chlorella, bee pollen, rosehips...I do not want to give more than needed, just would like to make sure the horses are getting all they need and from a natural and potent source. I like products from this company https://www.theracelleq.com/Optimum-EQ-Ingredients but they are only US based.
So trying to find what would be a good combination of things to create a wholesome natural min/vit supplement for them. FYI, the hay here is a nice quality (higher average), grass hay (no alfalfa here), pasture poor quality and average for small amount of time in summer. One of my horses seems to have always been a hard keeper and needed something "extra" and very sensitive to mould/toxin issues. Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you so much, Barbora
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2010 - 7:49 am:

Welcome Barbora,
Let's start with a good understanding of the horse's vitamin needs and where they normally come from, for more on this see HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Vitamins for Horses, an Overview. Once you understand if and what you need to supplement you will have to look around you to see what is available.
DrO
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2010 - 8:49 am:

I checked out the site you referenced - they do oversea shipping - would probably be expensive but you might talk to them about special packaging to bring down the cost. Sounds like an interesting supplement. Welcome to HA :-)
Cheryl K
New Member:
equick

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2010 - 9:17 am:

DrO, thank you very much. I should probably explain why I am thinking this way and get your help with my boy. He is a 4 year old andalusian colt who has had some hard times. I would do anything for him but am learning with him through trial and error and at this point, even though he has no obvious problem anymore, I still feel that he is not the "picture of health" he could be.

His history is much stress due to being collected early in life and so increased interest in mares at 2 years old (by the breeder), flying from USA to here, many changes and stress. He lost weight to a point that nothing seemed to help, his constant fence chasing was terrible. He finally fell and had an issue with his hip for a while. He also tied up few times later. I saved him by buying him two mares, which he lives with now - that made all the difference in him and he improved so much. Like I said, I would do anything to get him happy again, and while maybe not the "traditional" way, it really worked and I wish I would have done it sooner.
At one point I took him to a clinic to get help and what a mistake that was! They had no idea what was wrong and the longer we were there, the more crazy the diagnosis was getting - they ended up at EPM and telling me he will die! Needless to say, I took him home and started doing my own research/healing/whatever therapy I could find - even buying an expensive machine to treat him. Anyway, I did microcurrent therapy, reiki and all sorts of things to bring him back and get him to eat again and gain weight. It seemed that once the stresors diminished, he slowly started to improve with occasional set backs as the tying up episodes.
During all of this I consulted many holistic vets and tried to get opinions everywhere - I was desperate what can I say. I heard from few that my boy is probably very sensitive and also to molds/toxins and is full of them. The place where he used to be (I just moved him few weeks ago) did sometimes feed hay that i was not happy with but could not do much about it. I was also told that many of the processed and even extruded feeds are full of mold and other issues and "dead" ingredients. I am thinking that a good wholesome diet would be better at this point. I cannot hurt him and might help.
He is now on: Speedi-Beet (we have been doing much of that for the last year since his tying up) anywhere from 2-3 kg per day depending on his condition, extruded flax about 200g per day, Blue Chip Original 0.6 kg balancer. Then he just started getting about 2 kg per day in two meals of a mix of bran and freshly crumped whole oats - the new place makes it right before each feeding. Since he used to live 24/7 outside even in winter and now is stabled over night, I am thinking he will need less feed with time due to night rest.
I know you do not think there is much need for supplements and I would love to get to that point - but he has been through so many different ones for so many issues and for sooo much money - I would not even know where to start or end to be honest!
I would like to keep it simple while giving him all he needs and having him healthy but am always worried about him after what we have been through.
Right now, he has unlimited grass nice hay during the day while outside with some grass. Lots of hay in stall for night. Himalayan salt lick, which he loves. Fresh water.
No real visible issues. He is sound, good hoofs, growing (is about 168cm now), nice coat (even though I think it could still be even better), seems relaxed, gorgeous gaits. In the past he had slow growing and thin hoofs, that seems ok now. He seems to need some muscle but that probably needs work and not supplements? He seems fine but somehow I still think something is missing - he does not appear to be really "blooming with health" if that makes sense. I know he needs time to catch up but maybe I am missing something? And what about some immune support supplement? Just read about Transfer Factor, what about that?
I also wonder about the Red Desert Clay for helping his body get rid of whatever toxins and issues there might have accumulated.
He has always been a hard keeper, but over winter and spring now he did so great - only some speedi, little flax and 0.6 kg of blue chip balancer - that was enough for him and he was just gorgeous. Then the early summer came (his spring came late this year) and he started needing more feed again - could have been a combo of poor hay at the end at the old place, mares in heat around again so stress, some work (but his work is very light and same all year round really).
Any help you could give me would be much appreciated! I have spent so much money and time and energy trying to get him "just right" that I feel exhausted and always worry if he is getting all he needs. That is why I was also considering spirulina/chlorella/bee pollen or whatever else that is natural/potent and could give him that "boost" that I still feel he needs....
Sorry for the long post, but this has been very difficult for a long time and I would love some help and peace of mind so figured it is worth a try. Just so you know, the times when he was really doing well, he looked stunning and really has the potential for breeding stock. He is that nice. However, maybe I ruined him, who knows? My biggest fear is that he will not ever catch up for this time - people tell me now that he looks more like 2 years old than 4. This could mean that all of this hurt him permanently or it could just mean that he is like his sire, very slow maturing ( he is following his sire's footsteps in growing and his sire did not look like an andalusian stallion until about 7 years old!). I keep torturing myself with the thought that he might not catch up for the time he was ill and it is my fault. Thank you for any thoughts/help very much.
THANK YOU!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2010 - 9:09 pm:

I do not know of any evidence that transfer factor will have any effect on a horse that does not have issues and I agree that simple good forage is the foundation on any healthy diet. The rest of your post on suggestions is highly speculative. Overview of Nutrition will help you greatly on achieving a simple natural diet.
DrO
Member:
equick

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 27, 2010 - 2:56 am:

Dear DrO, thank you for your response to both this and my mares posts. To be completely honest, I am just getting more confused by each posting of yours. I have read the nutrition articles and I KNOW that fibre/hay is the most important part of the horse diet. Both my boy and the girls get unlimited grass hay (nice quality now that I moved them to this new place) during the day when out on grass pasture and big amount in their stalls for night - sometimes they do not even finish it. They all have unlimited access to fresh water - fresh and not tap. They all have salt lick both in pasture and in their stalls. That is the basic and I have always known that! However, when it is not NOT enough and the horse is obviously not ok weight-wise as in the past, then things stop being simple, you know? I am sorry if I sound frustrated but I am trying to get some more specific help than hay is best. I spent over a year trying to get him better and who knows which one of the many supplements helped - but some did - as he is fine the last year. However, after so long on supplements, you get to the point where you worry if things revert back if you stop using them. I want him even better and not go backwards. I am sorry but we have been through a lot and I would really appreciate some specific diet advice for my horses, if that is possible. I read it all, can sit down and do the math to be sure, but wanted your opinion on the overall diet as you know much more than I do. I have spent so much time on this that a fresh and professional help would probably clarify things a lot. Thank you.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 27, 2010 - 5:18 pm:

Welcome, Barbora.

I have been reading your post and sense your frustration. However, I am no nutritional expert by any means. I do believe that going back to the basics is best.

This is from your post:

"He has always been a hard keeper, but over winter and spring now he did so great - only some speedi, little flax and 0.6 kg of blue chip balancer - that was enough for him and he was just gorgeous. Then the early summer came (his spring came late this year) and he started needing more feed again - could have been a combo of poor hay at the end at the old place, mares in heat around again so stress, some work (but his work is very light and same all year round really)."

If he is losing weight, he would need more calories and you said you can do the math. It seems that you are concerned about the balancer, but without knowing anything about it, it is hard to give advice.

The only thing I can think of is maybe analyzing the hay to see what the nutritional content is.

I have no experience with stallions either - but someone else on this board might.

I converted the 1.68m to his height in hands, and, if my math is correct, he would be about 16.2 hands at 4 years old. Would that be unusually small?

It seems that you have made a lot of progress already with him.

No advice per se, but best wishes for the future,
Lilo
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 27, 2010 - 7:56 pm:

Hello Barbora. We have two Arabian stallions, one now retired and the other still showing. We used to stand both stallions at home, but now just have them collected and breed AI. When they were breeding at home, they lost a lot of weight in the springtime due to breeding itself, and the extra anxiety they have that time of year, plus being shown and rode every day. I had to keep good quality alfalfa hay in front of them 24 hrs. a day, plus give them 4# of Equine Senior, divided into 2 feedings a day with 1/2 cup of corn oil added per feeding to keep them from loosing weight. Even if they weren't breeding themselves, just having mares in heat around all the time gets them "stirred up" and they need the extra feed. My stallions weight approximately 1000lb. each. The vitamins and supplements are great for making sure they are getting the right balance of minerals, vitamins, etc. but to keep the weight on I think they mainly need good quality hay or good quality pasture. I don't know if you've had the pasture grass tested, but some grasses and pasture mixes aren't very high quality, even though they might look good. The only way to know for sure is to test. It sounds like you don't own the pasture, so this might be difficult to get done.

Is Speedy-beet a beet pulp? If so, it's good that it's mixed with bran and oats. It sounds like a good mix. Have you tried adding corn oil to the mix? It's very good at putting a little extra weight on. We've had a couple of rescued horses that were little more than skin and bones when they arrived. After a few weeks of good grass-alfalfa mix hay fed free choice, and Equine Senior mixed with extra minerals and multi-vitamins, rice bran and corn oil, they quickly put on weight and get a beautiful coat also.

Are alfalfa cubes available? Some horses seem to do better on the cubes for some reason and they are excellent if the horse tends to be sensitive to dust, etc.

Good luck.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 27, 2010 - 10:46 pm:

Barbora,
If you are having trouble keeping weight on a horse we do have an article that addresses this specific problem and you will find it at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss.

I think the confusion you express comes from you wanting specific advice on a subject that we have only a small amount of very general information about: you and your horse's situation. I want you to consider that we cannot see your horse, cannot evaluate your forages directly, and are not familiar with the concentrates and foodstuffs readily available to you. But this information is absolutely necessary to make the specific judgements you are asking us about. We can only guess at the myriad of questions and variables and therefore can only guess at what might be right. On the other hand you do know these specifics and hundreds of other details that may change the answers.

Giving you specific advice is further complicated by the large number of assumptions you make about the importance of uncommon supplements and other health concepts like stored toxins. These do not make a lot of sense to me.

There are limits to what can be done over the internet well. The best, most specific, most professional help and advice I can give you is to educate you about the principles involved in horse health and making feeding decisions. You then take these principles and apply it to your specific situation. Note if you do not find a foodstuff or supplement, like bee pollen, mentioned in our articles it is not because the articles are incomplete. It is probably because I do not find a important place for it in equine nutrition.
DrO
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 - 1:16 pm:

Barbara, you are not happy with your vet/s. Did you try to find breeding stables of Lippitzaners or Kladrubers ? They are in the country somewhere !? They should have good vets !?
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