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Discussion on Out of defeat comes victory Part III-Solution for barefoot racehorse
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 2, 2010 - 10:19 am:
Welcome to part III of my continuing journey( battle) to finding a solution to keeping my horse sound and racing and not in nailed on shoes.
This racing season started out on a good note in regular nailed on shoes. Mare finished second off a 10 month layoff in a tough field. I felt pretty good, her feet looked good, her legs looked good, she looked good. Perfect! Her next start, almost three weeks later, almost as good, she finished 3rd. But, I started to notice that her feet did not look quite so good, heel purchase was being lost. Toes were getting longer and the beginnings of LTLH had started. She was also experiencing some fill in one of her hind legs. Forward movement of the entire hoof capsule was affecting the placement of her heel points. The entire scenario that I have spent the last several years trying to conquer was happening before my eyes.
I also knew where we were headed and her last two starts were indicative as the poor hoof form was indicative of her performance. She finished 7th and 8th respectively. Time for a change.
I want to back up here a bit and let you folks know how the conversations went with my farrier. The following pertains to her shoeing behind, the front has a similar set of issues.
1st shoeing-her shoe size behind was a 2.5 steel full swedge Equine and was most likely a bit smaller as I instructed the farrier to not leave any additional shoe behind where the foot met the shoe. I did not want any shoe sticking out, as I believe that this leads to the hoof growing down to the shoe, plus what I see happening is that after a few days this part actually winds up being pressed into the heel bulbs and starts causing heel soreness. The shorter shoe does not do this.
1st shoeing results. Farrier listens to me, horse gets done properly, good results.
2nd shoeing- I give him the exact same instructions, same shoes, same size. I notice that he did not cut the extra shoe off and when I ask him why he says her foot grew(HMMM)I say and when I look at the shoe on the foot, it appears he is right. However, I notice that instead of the shoe coming straight back under the heel point, he has curved the shoe in and now it is right under the heel bulbs, exactly where I did not want it. But it looks ok. I complain, he gives me the look and says she'll be fine. It was getting dark, I did not have another set of shoes, and she is not the happiest horse to shoe. So, as unhappy as I was I let her be. I should have known better.
Now all of a sudden behaviors that I though were a thing of the past start returning, You try to do anything with her back legs and she either lifts them up quickly or tries to cowkick. (Hmmm, another red flag.) Plus what ever the fill is in her back legs is getting worse.
I call the vet, who after examining her tells me she is interfering and hitting herself and that is causing her pasterns and her legs to fill.( hmmm, another red flag). This mare has never in her life interfered. Then my husband starts getting involved, tells me the reason she's doing this is because I changed her shoes from what she wore last year, so to appease him I put back on the 1/2 round 1/2 swedge shoes. Turns out this was not the problem ( nor did I think it was)and resulted in another poor start.
Before this last start, I had already made the decision to pull her shoes and attempt to get a fresh start on rebuilding the feet I know she has. Trimmer came right after the race, pulled her shoes, trimmed her and we are going to put a full set of Sigafoos shoes on her tomorrow as a rehab measure. This will allow the HPT trim to work its magic, allow her to grow some foot and allow the nail holes to grow out. It will also allow me to race her with no nails in her feet and no glue covering her white line.
The observations that I will be looking for are the fill to go down in her back legs and the ceasing of the unhappy attitude when anyone goes near her back legs. Plus I really want to see the foot form come back to as close to normal as possible.
I pulled her shoes on Wednesday, today is Saturday. I gave her two days off after she raced, out in the field and towed her 3 1/2 miles this morning. Attitude better, no heat in her back feet, heat in her front feet, but gone when she was done towing. Back out to the field and we will see where we are over the next few days.
Wish me luck, she is back in to go on Wednesday with the rail. I am expecting a much better performance or at least an improvement over the last few weeks.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 2, 2010 - 11:00 am:
Very interesting Rachelle, Honestly I would have never thought "poor hoof form/ ouchy hooves" could change a horses attitude SOOOO much under saddle and apparently racing. I am a believer now tho .
What do you think caused the heat in her front hooves this morning?
OHHH I just looked at Sigafoo shoes, they are kind of what you have been trying to invent!!! I like them, have you used them before???
Good luck at the race, let us know how this all turns out and if "wicked's" attitude changes
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 2, 2010 - 11:29 am:
That is interesting. I have ZERO knowledge of shoes, so I would love to see a picture of them on her hoofs if you feel like posting some.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 2, 2010 - 8:37 pm:
Diane,
I think the heat was from standing around and not moving leading to a lack of circulation, plus when the trimmer was working on her Wednesday, he said the position of her coffin bone was not at the right angle and her hoof was bullnosing, so I think that was contributing to it too.
Yes, I have used the Sigafoos shoes before and I like them but they are expensive. They are pretty quick to put on though, as long as you have the hang of the gluing. The pad also relieves any sole pressure and they stay on until you take them off. I will probably need two sets about 3 weeks apart to get her feet back to where they should be. In the meantime, they should help on Wednesday just having the nails out of her feet and no pressure on her coffin bone.
Yes, they are similar to what I was trying to do, but I want removable shoes not glue-ons.
Angie, Did you go onto the soundhorse technologies site to look at the shoes. I think they have some videos you can look at to watch the application.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 3, 2010 - 9:23 am:
Hi Rachelle,
I looked at some briefly. Am I correct in thinking that they all are still "shoes" instead of boots? So it seems like a great idea to avoid using nails, yet when they use the power tools the outer wall is being compromised. IMO.
Have you found a boot that is applied that way? Wouldn't it be great if we could purchase a boot that we could glue on ourselves, and we had all (almost all) the benefits of being barefoot yet with some protection?
I do think they are pretty cool! Anything that avoids nails, even if it is still an aluminum or steel shoe, is an improvement.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 3, 2010 - 11:38 am:
Angie,
You do not need power tools to do this! You do a regular trim and use a bit of sandpaper to rough up the lower part of the hoof wall.
I just got back from the barn and Hanna's feet look great! I am going to go back and tow her a few miles in about an hour.
Pulling her shoes Wednesday and putting these shoes on today was the right thing to do and I might be able to get 3 races into her without having to replace the shoes.
My position has been against nails, not necessarily against shoes, although in a perfect world. I would love to race barefoot as long as it did not damage her feet.
I might experiment with using a pair of Sigafoos shoes with velcro on my colt,and see how long they would stay on, since the basic idea to have a cuff and a shoe is already there in the shoe.
Then its just a matter in getting the Velcro to stay on the hoof to make it worthwhile to continue using that method of attachment.
Unfortunately, I think they need to come up with a glue that would go on easily, stay on for as long as you needed it and then would be easily removable. None of the equine glues do this, so it makes the attachment more or less permanent until the next shoeing. That's what makes it hard for us as non-farriers/trimmers to deal with.
I want to be able to get these shoes off easily, be able to trim frequently and I want my horses feet to stay good all the time. I don't think I am asking much.
I think I've made that leap today with Hanna, now all she has to do is go earn her shoeing money.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 3, 2010 - 1:58 pm:
Hanna sure is lucky to have such a dedicated owner.
From reading through your post, it sounds like the ideal solution would be a sleeve which stayed on the hoof with the glue they are using. If there was a method that would allow securely attaching shoes or BOOTS, easily enough for a horse owner to attach and remove them, it would be PERFECT!
I am seeing the sleeve being on the hoof, and various options that could be bought seperately to go with it. A boot for founder or medication needs. A thin shoe for race day.
The attachment is the tricky part; didn't you try something already like this months ago? Maybe that's why I am thinking about it, lol!
We couldn't have hooks that were dangerous of course.
Hope Hanna earns her shoe money, best of luck!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 3, 2010 - 10:37 pm:
Good luck, Rachelle!
Thanks for sharing the information.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2010 - 9:07 pm:
A quick update!
My horse is back! 2 days after the Sigafoos shoes and 6 days out from the trim.
Legs are going down, She is now standing square and for the first time in months she galloped out to her hay pile at the other end of the field, when I turned her out tonight. Go Hanna!
She also did not have a cowkicking fit when I went to do her legs up this morning, nor did she pull her foot away when I picked and hosed out her feet after she towed. She has done this every day since I put nailed on shoes on her 3 months ago. She is feeling really good, lets hope it pays off on Wednesday
Rachelle
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2010 - 10:06 pm:
Good luck, Rachelle!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2010 - 11:26 pm:
I hope Hanna kicks butt, be sure to let us know how she does!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2010 - 8:22 am:
Good luck Hanna and Rachelle!
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2010 - 8:46 am:
Will be waiting for the results! ! ! You did put hot pink sigafoos on her didn't you ???
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 6, 2010 - 6:10 pm:
Update:
Go Hanna! She's back!
Hanna finished third today, got beat 1 length in the fastest time of her career (by 2 seconds) on a half mile track. 1:57.1. She earned her shoe money(good, cause I needed it).
Cheryl, I did not put hot pink Sigafoos shoes on her, just plain old black, so they would look as natural as possible (she has 4 black feet). Besides, my husband would have killed me if he walked into the barn and saw hot pink.
We are putting her back in for Monday, with hopefully another good post.
I think these shoes help her because the pad cushions the impact when her heels hit the ground and because I can keep my HPT trim, her breakover is much better on all of her feet.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 7:27 am:
Great news Rachelle and congrats!!!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 7:41 am:
Wa hoo Rachelle! Hip Hip Hooray Hanna!
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 10:08 am:
I just looked up the Sigafoos and find this very interesting. My farrier, who is a certified barefoot trimmer, had mentioned them. Right now I use boots on my horse, in the summer only, whenever we are on rough terrain but they are clunky and take time to put on. These look like a possible replacement.
I wonder about using glue on the hoof wall over time. Do you see anything of concern? Their webpage really does not talk about the issue of glue on the hoof repeatedly. Of course, if I only used them in summer, that would give him some months off too. The glue seems a better idea than nails, IMO, and a good solution to a horse that gets ouchy even with a good barefoot trim. His sole is not very concave, although we are hoping in time that might improve.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 7:10 pm:
One more thing to add to the update. Her legs are almost completely down to the point I pulled the legwraps off and left her open.
Linda, I had an old trotter that came to me with awful feet(another rescue), I used Sigafoos shoes on him exclusively front and rear and never had a problem with the glue. When he went back to Michigan to retire with his original trainer, the first thing they said was that his feet were the best they had been since he was a two year old( he was 13, when he went home)and they raced him for a few more months until he finally did retire.
The only problems, I have is they do not have much variety in shoes, so you have to make do with what they have and with a lot of use the shoe tends to pull away from the heel and spring itself. I bought a big vise and squeeze the shoe back together on the horse(foot on ground). You gets lots of protection because of the pad and because you can use these and keep a barefoot trim the horses foot stays much healthier.
Mare did not get in for Monday so it will be at least until next Friday before we do it all again.
My trimmer and I over time have developed a way that does not use a lot of glue but the shoes stay on despite the lower amount of glue.
Stay tuned!
Rachelle
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 8:39 pm:
Congratulations Rachelle! Let's see a picture of those shoes!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 9:27 pm:
Go Hanna!
Congratulations, Rachelle.
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2010 - 8:30 am:
Good Job, Rachelle ! ! ! But I could just see her with hot pink shoes flashing down the track - now I ask - how cool would that be? Hope you gave Hanna a big juicy apple.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2010 - 6:01 pm:
Cheryl,
Ever since I got her as a two year old(she's going on 6 now). This mare has never eaten anything out of someone's hand and if you put anything strange in her feed tub( other than feed), she won't go near it. My husband is a believer in treats and tried many different types, but she will not eat them. Instead she gets extra feed and that's her treat for a job well done!
Rachelle
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 13, 2010 - 7:43 pm:
Ok folks time for an update and another experiment.
Hanna has been racing pretty well in the Sigafoos shoes, but they have done what I wanted. Her feet are better, she stopped her funky attitude with her back legs and her legs are normal.In 8 starts she has 1 second an 3 thirds. Her poor starts are when she has the outside posts which she has had for her last 3 races and has again for her race on Wednesday. The girl is smart and she realizes that when the driver takes her off the starting gate instead of leaving with her, she's done racing.
Someone posted in another thread (it may have been Lee) about rockering a horses toes whether barefoot or not and that made something click in my brain, so I called my old farrier who I have worked with in the past( and he knows how my mind works) and asked him to put regular shoes on and rocker the toe. My thought process on this was if I could avoid the long toe, low heel synDrOme and keep it from happening by rockering the toes on all 4 feet, then maybe I can keep her in nailed on shoes and still keep her happy and sound. I am firmly convinced that it is the long toe that creates most of the problem.
My farrier completely understood what I asked him to do and knew exactly where I was coming from. So, right now Hanna has her feet back. Her toes are rockered and her shoes do not extend back past her heels. We will see where this goes and how long she stays normal.
I'll keep you all updated, I haven't abandoned my hope for a barefoot solution and may go back to the Sigafoos shoes if this does not work out.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 2010 - 7:10 am:
Good Luck Rachelle, I have to wonder wouldn't putting a shoe on with a rolled toe help even more along with her rolled toes? I Know NOTHING about race plates. What about something like this? I have a feeling you have already used something like this, but wondered about the built in breakover being helpful.
speed Toe
The new revolutionary Kerckhaert Speed Toe Race Plate is now being launched worldwide. In additional to the industry standard testing and prototyping, the Speed Toe was also extensively tested in selected control environments for almost a year.
The first horses on the new commercial version of the Speed Toe are already winning the top races in impressive style. With quicker break over, the Kerckhaert renowned farrier-friendly shape and finishing, we are only seeing the beginning of the Kerckhaert Speed Toe not just leading the industry, but also revolutionizing it
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 2010 - 11:21 am:
Hi Diane,
Thanks for the picture and the info, very interesting. for my purposes though these are a bit too severe and look more like a squared toe front shoe that might or might not work on a gaited standardbred, but I can see them working on a thoroughbred. I think like anything else. it would depend on the horse.
As part of my conversation with my farrier yesterday, we went though the difference between a rolled toe and a rockered toe, and how he explained it to me was with the rolled toe(very lightly beveled)the shoe once applied would be flush with the toe, the toe though rolled, would have very little effect on the breakover, putting it at almost the same spot as it would be without the toe being rolled( I think this is what my previous farrier was doing).
With the rockered toe, the toes are taken back further and the shoe(which is shaped to fit the newly rockered, rounded toe) is further back as well (almost underset), putting the breakover point almost exactly where its supposed to be.
So, in effect,my toes are backed up, my heel points are back where they belong, my horses feet look the way they are supposed to and lo and behold, when my husband jogged her this morning she did not trip or stumble once(She does this all the time). Whether it will translate into getting a check on Wednesday from the 8 hole, I doubt it, but she certainly acts a lot more comfortable, than any other previous times I had to put regular shoes on her. Whether we can keep her comfortable going forward that's another story, but for right now. All is good.
I also did the same rockered toes to the colt who
got his first set of shoes on in quite some time yesterday too. I am hoping to avoid some of the soundness issues that plagued him earlier in the year. Nothing serious, but enough to let me know, I needed to back off with him. He's bigger, stronger and seems to have his head screwed on a bit better, than he did when I stopped with him in the early summer. His breeding makes for better racehorses when they get older and since I am not looking for a stakes horse, even though he is staked, first he has to make it to be a regular race horse, before I even consider trying to race him against top caliber horses.
With both of these horses, only time will tell.
Rachelle
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 2010 - 11:57 am:
Rachelle - just fwiw - the only shoes that have ever worked on my Walker mare were the Natural Balance squared toe shoes - that is the only time she has ever gaited correctly -
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 9:23 pm:
Rachelle I found what I was talking about in the other thread, they are interesting. I may have to consider these for Hank. The second one...alternative application.
https://carnerequinepodiatry.com/Shoes.aspx
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 3:16 am:
Hi Diane,
Thanks for the link. I've known about this, in fact the equisocks is a different brand of Hoofwear. In fact, I think this lady is a student of K.C La Pierre, only because she has equine podiatry in her business name.
I was rather surprised when I came across her website that she would be marketing the same thing under a different name, but last year my own trimmer found something called techni-cast( casting tape), which for all intents and purposes is Hoofwear at $4.95 a roll rather than the $15 dollars that K.C. charges. It is sold through a medical supply house and is the exact same stuff Doctors use when they put a cast on.
When I did my combination shoe last year, I glued the shoe onto the Hoofwear and then as a precaution I used baby nails to nail them on, the nails went into the Hoofwear and not the hoof.
I don't particularly like the application of the equisocks/Hoofwear over the shoe, unless you do not have any cement floors, this material gets very slick and my horses had a tendency to slip on the cement floors in the barn.
Also, I found that when a whole roll was used there was too much material at the toe defeating the purpose of the backed up toe and the better breakover of a barefoot trim.
With my combo shoe, I only used enough Hoofwear to have a base to glue the shoe on to. I got 3 hooves out of 1 roll of the techni-cast, very economical, where the cost got me was in the materials( specifically the glue) and the labor time to put the combo shoes on.
Just my thoughts.
Thanks
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 7:02 am:
You're up late/early. Hard to believe that stuff would be slick when they say you can ride with it on. I imagined it's texture a bit like vet wrap.(the equisocks) It says slip free protection on roads. It also says you don't need glue, they used 2 small screws as anchors.
With the ground control shoes it says to cut the shoe so it fits inside the hoof wall then wrap. The breakover shouldn't be increased in that case?
Interesting anyway and look easy to apply. Have you ever used/seen the ground control shoe? They don't seem overly expensive.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 8:02 am:
It goes on like vetwrap, but it hardens to the shape of the foot. The glue is in the equisock itself and that's what makes it harden. Go lookup Hoofwear, the application also uses anchor screws.
The equisocks/hoofwear whatever you want to call it. Adds surface to the whole foot, sort of like adding extra wall, as the foot grows out the toe gets longer.
I've seen the ground control shoes, but never used them. I would think that unless you glued the shoe on to the equisocks that depending on the surface the bottom of the equisock would wear away and the shoe would fall off because its not attached.
and yes, I was up early to look at the snow and see how long it was going to take me to get shoveled out and get to work this morning.
I am tired of snow and cold weather, bring on the Spring!
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 8:25 am:
Thanks for the explanation, I may keep these in the back of my head in case Hank doesn't hold up to ridden work this year. I really don't like those simple boots I got He did fine last year except for a couple weeks so hopefully this year will be 100% I think I can probably apply them myself too.
I am SOOOOOOOO ready for spring! snowing hard here too . Not as much as you guys are getting, we get a big storm maybe mon. they say...can't wait!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 9:02 am:
Thanks Diane for putting that link up, and Rachelle for your feedback. It seems like a good way to protect hoofs if needed, and for even $15 a hoof, that is not bad for something to have on hand.
Rachelle, just to clarify, (I got to sleep in today, and haven't had coffee yet ;-() do equi-socks come in a roll like the casting stuff? Or is it preformed to a hoof shape? I am wondering about ease of application...something preformed would be easier to apply than wrapping the hoof.
Of course I've watched my basketball player daughter get her foot wrapped many times in ER so that should not be too hard, lol!
OH yes, SPRING....any time now, any time!!! Even some sunshine if it's below zero would be an improvement!!!
We haven't had much snow all winter. I actually wish we'd get a bunch for the moisture which we need. Of course I don't want the winds, the ice and all that crap.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 10:55 am:
Good luck with Hanna, Rachelle.
Thanks all for posting this interesting information.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 7:01 pm:
Angie,
It is not preformed, it is exactly like the casting tape, in fact it is casting tape. If you do not have to ride on an abrasive surface you do not even need the shoes. There is a knack to putting them on correctly, even though they go on as if you are wrapping the foot with vetwrap.
They come with some very small screws that are very precisely placed in the side of the hoof in the back (they don't go in very deep) and the equisocks/hoofwear gets wrapped under the screws for a wrap or two and then over the screws to cover them. This keeps the wrap below the hairline and prevents them from chafing the heel. The hoofwear/equisocks kit comes with a styrofoam pad your horse stands on right after you apply the wraps. This form fits the bottom of the wrap to the hoof.
The wrap activates when placed in warm water, but you usually have enough time to get it on and wrapped before it gets to hard to use. The foot has to come down on the styrofoam pad and stay there for a few minutes. Picking up the other leg accomplishes this.
Once you get the hang of it they are really easy to put on especially if you do not need the shoes and are looking for just a little protection. They were created to be used for helping horses with chronically bad feet as you can work in them and protect the feet at the same time.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 12:15 am:
Thank you Rachelle, that was a very good explanation.
I hope I don't need then, but I am really interested in having the socks on hand-just in case.
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