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Discussion on BCS 7 or 8?
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2011 - 2:39 pm:
Hi! I guess my horse would be an 8. When you look at him from the back, there is a round circle of fat extending out from his tail on each side probably 5". There are also some fat pockets down his shoulder blades. But, before he got all this heavy winter coat, I could see his ribs. Under the BCS chart, you should just be able to feel them. What's up with this?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2011 - 3:35 pm:
Sounds like he just has a metabolic body, they tend to put weight on in strange places. Does he have a cresty neck? They are hard to score, Sam is like that too, but can be a bit ribby, yet has fat "slabs" on his back. Can you post a pic of him? They can be deceiving but help a little.
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 1:28 pm:
I'll get a pic.ASAP, Diane. Yesterday, I used a horse weight tape,from wither around girth and it came out, 1003 lbs. Less than I thought but maybe not real accurate either. Just ordered a hay bag that is suppose to slow down eating.
I'm in a tizzy over your question about whether this is founder or extremely bruised feet? My gosh,how bad can just sore feet get? He is better from when we locked him in barn last week! This is not progressing like last years bout did.He is moving but turns around so wierd!Steps to the side with his back feet,even kinda crossing them and turns around slow.All I feel in his feet is a slight amount of warmth around his coronet band and when I pick up his feet he is able to stand on the other one. He's not flexing his front feet much at all while he stands.Yesterday,it was nicer out so I turned him out for a few hours,plenty of snow on ground,of course he didn't
move around much, but he didn't lay down at all and didn't have to be pulled on to get him going back into stall.He willing walked in! How do you get the DP? Measured his feet for easy boots rx.Wow, 120.00 for two? I'm thinking!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 2:40 pm:
Hello Gail,
Horses with a 5 have fat in the places you describe, the question is how much. Good images taken with the light coming from behind you as you photograph will help.
DrO
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 8:33 pm:
Dr.O. Hello! Thanks so much for your comment and interest. I'm amazed that a BCS of 5 can still produce fat pockets like this. I have read your articles concerning EMS,IR,Hypothyroid. I have taken him off the Purina "Healthy Edge",low carb/sugar feed.Even tho I wasn't giving him very much of this at all? Today, I bought CalfManna,gave him a cup of it,with his meds.Did I read and understand you right in one of your articles? I gave him no bute today and turned him out about 1:30 p.m.Only because he wanted to walk right out on his own.When I went out to feed at 5:00 p.m. he trotted through the snow about 50/60
feet into the barn! Of course, he had motivation,the mare always knows when he doesn't feel well and gives him hell so he was hurried to get to his stall gate! But still, it just made me so happy. Last week I had to throw a halter on him and pull to get him moving into barn,even tho he loves to be stalled up. I will take pictures so you all can see,but with his winter coat,I don't know. I am not the worlds best at pictures.
Thanks so much, gail
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 7:35 am:
I am uncertain why you are feeding Calf Manna gail. Have you read our article on nutrition (HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses). This is where I would start on the proper feeding of a horse.
Note there are places in your profile where you can describe your horses and current management scheme. By having that information available we might be able to help better by better understanding your situation.
DrO
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 11:18 am:
DrO. I'm sorry,I guess I misunderstood about the calf manna. I read it in one of your articles under:Fat or Obesity in Horses,supplements.
You said that if a horse was off pasture,off grain,fed stemmy hay, to supplement with a high protein 30/40%.3 oz. of something like calf manna or manna pro. I was very limited in the farm store I was in. Should I take him off that? I was just wanting something that I could put his meds on,that at the same time provided some extra nutrition. I'll get some info.posted in profile section. Thanks again!
Gail
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 10:44 am:
Does your horse get nothing to eat but a stemmy hay Gail?
DrO
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 11:09 am:
Dr.O.
My horse was getting a combination of high quality
grass/brome hay,some stemmy,not so great,hay from a round bale,along with about 3lbs per day of Purina "Healthy Edge",low carb/sugar pelleted feed,plus(for the last few months)a magnesium/chromium supplement as I was trying to avert a winter triggered laminitis attack.About 2 weeks ago,he went into a bout of it anyway.I started him Jan.21.on Thryo L,at the advice of my cousin who is an equine DVM,I also joined your site and read that it would be wise to take him off all grains/pelleted feeds.I also have cut back on his hay,a small amount,in an effort to DrOp some weight off of him. I bought the calfmanna in an effort to find something with good nutrional value that I could put his meds.and supplements on and limit it to 1 cup/twice per day. My horse also has a salt and mineral block at all times. I welcome any feedback you could give me. I've given him more of the stemmy hay since he's got sick,for the fiber, because I was worried that maybe the really good quality hay might be a little rich for him, due to suspected IR/EMS. Again, I welcome any thoughts you are willing to give me. He is doing much better every day!
Sincerely, gail
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 5:32 pm:
DrO. Hello. Here are a few pics.of my horse,Butch.
Hope this helps.
Thank you!
Gail
       
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 8:46 pm:
Yikes he looks just like Sam! Sam is usually a BCS of 5 but he has those fat lumps, Butch's butt is worse than Sam's but his was close at one time, I will see if I can find any pics. They are hard to put a BCS on that's for sure .
Speaking FME only, he does have an IR and possibly PPID look about him. I think you are doing the right things. I would add a muti vit/mineral supplement if you are soaking his hay. Dr.O's article suggest a human version for price, I couldn't find any human vitamins cheaper than what I just started my horses on, since they are now on their spring diets and my hay is much less then great.
Does your vet have any opinions on his body form?
Does he shed out normally? slow?
Does he drink and urinate more than "normal"
Chew on his salt block?
How long has he had the fat lumps?
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 6:17 am:
Diane, he is starting to shed now.He has always
shedded out completely! I don't notice if he's drinking or urinating more than he should. He's been drinking about 5 gal plus per day. No,I son't see him chew his salt block. I think the but fat lumps have been getting worse over the last couple years,for sure. Thanks Diane!
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 7:05 am:
Diane, Here is a picture of my mare "Sunday".She's 11 yr.old QH.Her and Butch have always beeen fed the same. She doesn't get
hardly any winter coat.She's awfully dirty in this pic.tho. No problems with her though.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 11:15 am:
Gail, I think that you should add a vit/mineral supplement for him. Go to www.horsetech.com for some suggestions for IR horses.
If you get his diet "tight" (as Diane says), all these lumps will improve dramatically. It is a slow process but worth it - those lumps are probably what made him so prone to laminitis, and you've got to reduce their size by diet and then by exercise. See the HA information about exercise, if you haven't already. I know he's not ready yet, but you are going to have to think about it.
I also think that the thyroid will help with your weight loss program.
nancy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 5:30 pm:
She looks more like Hanks body type, a bit cresty and fat enough. Wouldn't hurt her to be an a low carb diet either, actually it's good for most horses
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 5:48 pm:
Gail I know everyone above means well but as to whether any of these are good suggestions is unknown. I feel like your questions and these recommendations are stabs in the dark. To use an analogy: the engine is running rough and you are asking about the air conditioner and suggestions for help look like a pinch of bat wing and a bit of frog eye.
I really want you to go to the Nutrition Overview article and completely review good equine nutrition. Some of the question still not answered to my satisfaction that could change nutritional recommendations are:
1) What is this horse's body condition? I would pay more attention to rib coverage than atypical pads of fat.
2) What chronic disease / metabolic conditions is this horse dealing with? This is critical in making nutritional decisions and should involve your veterinarian. Once conditions are identified we have very good articles on management and treatment that should be compared to your veterinarians recommendations.
3) Why is this horse lame? The treatment of sole bruising and founder can be very similar but the nutritional management are very different.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 7:06 pm:
Dr.O. if I may ask a couple questions to make sure I have it right?
Why is the nutritional management very different in founder or bruised soles? I don't understand that.
Isn't scientific research showing that atypical fat pads are one of the tell tale signs of metabolic problems? Gail said her horses are getting worse.
Isn't low glycemic diets good for most all horses, especially those that aren't worked much?
Shouldn't A horse that is sore footed, has big fat pads, be placed on a low glycemic diet until the vet can look at them?
I don't think we have led Gail astray at all by suggesting a low carb diet until her horse is better... then re evaluate is exactly what I said.
Sorry if you think we are full of it, but it does work and other than the supplements which I haven't suggested other than a vit/min supplement you have most of this in your articles
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 8:23 pm:
DIANE. I COULD JUST CRY SO HARD RIGHT NOW.AFTER YEARS OF CONSULTING WITH VETS AND HEARING,GIVE HIM BUTE, GIVE HIM THYRO L, TAKE HIM OFF THYRO L.
DrO. ASKED FOR PICTURES,I PROVIDED HIM WITH THOSE AND THIS IS WHAT I GET. I HAVE RESEARCHED,RESEARCHED,RESEARCHED ALL OF THIS. WHAT AM I BEING TOLD? THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY TO HIM. I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR DrO'S THOUGHTS ON THIS. I GET NONE. I EVEN TOLD HIM MY COUSIN WAS AN EQUINE SPECIALIST DVM AND SUGGESTED I PUT HIM ON THYRO L. I DON'T EVEN GET A SUGGESTION AS TO THAT! MY LOCAL VET SAYS EMS AND THATS ABOUT IT.AREN'T I DOING AT LEAST SOME OF THE THINGS I SHOULD CONSIDERING THAT. I'M SORRY TO BOTHER YOU.
YOU ARE ARE GREAT. BETTER SUGGESTIONS THAN ANY VET HAS GIVEN ME!!! I KNOW THEY ARE VERY ,VERY BUSY!!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 9:01 pm:
Gail if your horse is improving keep doing what you are doing You are there and see him. I know how heartbreaking it is to see them in such pain and why I have been trying so hard to keep this from happening to mine again. I put my experiences out there in hopes that it does help someone else. Dr.O. is very kind to let me do that as it is not all scientific but things I am learning on this journey with my EMS/IR/PPID horses.
I'm very glad Butch is improving and very glad to help anytime I can, I hope you keep us updated.
It sounds like you have done everything in your power to help Butch. It gets very frustrating sometimes. There are many of us on this board that have the same problems.
How is Butch today? I think if you start a thread in the EMS section it would be helpful to give his history, what your vet has said, ect. Maybe Dr.O. will be able to help you better.
I also want to know how this ends!!!
I learn a lot from other peoples experiences too.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 9:16 pm:
Gail that is the reason I said in my thread it would be better to start your own in the EMS section, Dr.O. probably missed or didn't respond because it is my thread and you never really asked him a question.
You are a new member and didn't realize that is how it works. I am impressed you figured picture posting so fast! That took me a week!
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 9:30 pm:
Thanks again ,Diane. Your great! I'll go back and start a new treead on the ems. But DrO. has read and asked me questions and I have been quite detailed with him on the questions he's asked.No direct reply to anything." Are you just feeding him stemmy hay, Gail?"(DrO) Read what I reply. Then I get this? The pictures I sent were to Dr.O.
I get no comments on them?
Most sincerely,gail
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 9:45 pm:
I guess you did I had to look back up the thread, very bad memory today! LONG day at work!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 11:40 pm:
Best of luck Gail. It's difficult when you receive conflicting advice from the professionals. I had some of the same frustrations a year or so ago with vets and farriers with regard to foot/hoof issues. I had myself pretty much worked up to hysteria mode at times.
I am no expert of course, but it couldn't hurt to put a lightly worked horse...with sore feet...who is perhaps overweight...on a low carb diet. Those easy keepers who don't do much work are a challenge. I have two of those.
I apologize I cannot see/read all of the posts above so the answers to the following questions may be already answered above--(long story about the hotel computer I'm on...), but as Dr. O stated, do you have test results about his metabollic condition? Is he IR? Are you able to get testing in your area? And have you had X-rays of his feet--is he foundered? I apologize again if I asked questions which have been answered.
Bless you for trying to get the best help you can for your horses.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 9:41 am:
Dr.O. I don't want to appear argumentative, but here is an except from pub med. The adipose tissue at Gail's horses tail head is quite impressive, even with the winter hair.
There clearly exists a need for objective criteria by which horses might be “scored” in terms of whole-body adiposity. Whereas in the human context, the “body mass index” (BMI) has found utility in this respect, it has more recently been suggested that simply measuring the circumference of the (human) individual's waist is an excellent indicator of visceral adiposity.20 In the equine field, various methods have been recommended for the purpose of assessing the relative adiposity of equine patients, including the body condition score, the equine BMI, and the use of ultrasonography to assess subcutaneous fat thickness near the tail head.21–23 Determinations of the thickness of subcutaneous adipose repositories near the base of the tail and over the rump have been shown to be useful predictors of total body fat content when compared to determinations based on dissection of the carcass.24,25
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 9:57 am:
Diane - I recently saw something on TheHorse.com that it is helpful to measure the horse's belly - further back behind the withers - to assess if your weight loss program is working. I wish I had saved that - it had a diagram or photo associated with it.
The struggle of keeping weight off an easy keeper!
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 9:59 am:
My vet goes by Sam's tail fat more than anything also. Between Hank's cresty neck and Sam's fat butt I can pretty much tell when things are going very wrong in their diet(Too high NSC's whether it be hay or grass), even though the rest of Sam's BCS consistently runs between a 5 and 6, he will get sore footed when it "blows up"
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 10:13 am:
Gail, I see on your profile that you are from Missouri - Diane and I both live in Illinois and struggle with the winters and our horses' feet. It's not easy, and you should be commended for trying to help Butch during this time. I do not have a local equine vet, and for years did not have a good trimmer so in my case it was very frustrating. I understand completely and know that you are not alone in your struggles in horse ownership.
Nancy
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 2:17 am:
Vicki is right, without correct evaluation and testing from a vet, your treatment is based on "I think", and not "I know, because the tests show....". So many times, we chase a treatment, and end up spending twice the amount we would have if we had just had the proper tests done at the beginning.
I had a paint gelding for 30 years. He was shown constantly from the seventies til the early nineties. He had a perfect square way of moving, with a slightly elevated tail carriage. In his mid to late thirties, he was very thin ( no teeth nor appetite, yet still very active and ridden lightly ). He exhibited pads around his tail, skinny tho' he was. I cared for an old roping horse who died at 42-skinny also, except for padding around his tail. These pads were probably combinations of muscle from the many years of work ( jumping and slide stopping )and fat deposits. In your horse, I don't see a rain gutter down the length of his back, or a backside the shape of a heart. I don't see horrendous neck rolls and the throat latch appears decent. He may need to lose weight, but that's your call. It's hard to tell from the pictures.
You need to find out if you have founder, or bruised feet. One is a severe physiologic condition, while the other is....bruises. If you have severe bruised feet, then the boots you ordered should bring some relief.
One thing about the levothyroxine - my dog ( 110 lb. flat coated retriever )nearly died from it last summer. She had the tests, they indicated the need,so we put her on it last May. By the end of June, she couldn't tolerate temperatures over the low 70's and walking across a room could trigger alarming difficulties breathing. She was so bad, that I thought she had heart failure - gasping for air constantly. I read the side effects on the internet and stopped it immediately. After about 2 days, she began improving and continued to do so. Perhaps these side effects don't appear in horses....but it might be prudent to keep a close watch.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 7:45 am:
Gail it sounds as if you have had Butch seen by vets, what have they said?
Above you have said they said he has EMS and I gather that is why you have researched it so much, and landed on my EMS thread.
Has the vet examined him when he was sore? I know you have stated they said it was laminitis and to give him bute/thyro L.
Start your own thread under EMS and give all this history in one place, it will help to understand what is going on with him and what your vet/vets have said.
PPID?/IR and EMS can be hard to "test" for usually it is based on symptoms and looks. Since your horse is having hoof pain, now is not a good time to test for it. Maybe when you have vaccinations done have blood pulled for it if he is not painful then, and Vaccs. don't make him nervous. OR has he had tests?
In the mean time I still don't understand why a low carb diet is getting knocked here, it is the mainstay for all these diseases, along with exercise when possible. IME with at least 2 maybe 3 EMS/IR horses their body types can vary, not a one of mine has the same fat pads. IR and PPID horses can also be thin. It is hard to judge by your pics even tho they were VERY good because of the hair, but that butt and sub orbital fat is hard not to notice.
Pics of his hooves may help also
You also said the fat pads are getting worse?
Put all this info in your own thread and Dr.O. may be able to better help you.
Hope Butch is still improving
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 7:48 am:
OH and don't be overwhelmed or panic. One of the great things about this site is we like to "discuss" things very politely
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 9:44 am:
Lee,Hi! Thanks for your input. That scares me what your telling about your dog and the thyroid
meds! Right now,I think I just have to trust the advice I've gotten from two vets advising I put him on this. They said to watch him and play with the dosage if needed.In other words,hyper,sweaty,nervous,decrease dose. He was on this several years ago and I discontinued it because he did get a little "hot" on it.I'm wondering now if I shouldn't have just decreased the dose some because that year he did not come down with a case of wintertime laminitis.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 9:54 am:
Ok, I guess I am feeling a bit like a bull in a china shop lately but this is a good place to bring up a growing problem on our boards: the diagnosing and treating of others horses. Perhaps the best way to start is with taking the above questions in order.
Concerning Diane's first set of questions:
1) A horse with bruised soles has no other special nutritional considerations but his body condition. Foundered horses may have other concerns primarily involving carbohydrates.
2) What if the "not worked much" horse is already very thin, should we necessarily concern ourselves with designing low glycemic diets?
3) What if he is of poor body condition and the sore footedness not related to founder.
4)Diane I understand Gail is now giving thyroid medication based on other discussions to a horse that might be a 5 and I see the recommendations above of giving extra vitamins and mineral supplements. And while some of these suggestions may be indicated I continue to feel they are tinkering around the edges when a good mechanic with a complete set of tools is needed. Concerning your last statement Diane, my articles don't diagnose conditions. They educate about good husbandry practices or disease conditions. These are two very different things.
Concerning Gail's comments:
Gail I apologize for the confusion you are feeling but I am giving you advice, the best advice I know: you, Gail, must make the judgement on how best to care for your horse. Horseadvice is a tool not a oracle, I think a very powerful tool however. By learning to use this tool properly you can educate yourself thoroughly about the management and care of your horse and conditions your horse may have.
Let's take an example from above: take for instance the subject of your original post where you were confused about how to grade the body condition of your horse. I advised you that I would look more closely at the ribs than the fat over the tail head. I did not try to guess the condition from your images, mostly because of all the hair. But even if I could images can be very misleading and your horses body condition can be in flux. What we say today may not apply weeks from now. It is better for you to educate yourself to the point that you can make these decisions.
I see in one of your last posts that your veterinarian has diagnosed your horse with EMS, I implore you to review HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Endocrine System » Equine Metabolic SynDrOme and Insulin Resistance. The section on diagnosis should help you with whether this seems likely or not. The section on management will give you the "whole view" of the problem and employing your own goals and resources the best way to address it. Then if you have questions about the article or your horse please raise them in the discussion area. But often it is inappropriate to give specific advice about your horse but we can always help you with how to answer your questions. This is the proper use of this tool.
Addressing Diane's concerns about tail head adiposity I am not sure what point she is trying to make but I think she is comparing apples to oranges. How can this possibly apply to the horse with large hard fat pads over the tail and a cresty neck but every spine and rib on the thorax visible? I suspect the pubmed article was discussing the "normal or average" horse not those with metabolic conditions or endocrine diseases. When gaging body condition it is always best to look at the whole horse and not just one part. If the whole horse is thin but has unusual fat pads over the tail head and a crest, I would pay more attention to the thinness.
DrO
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 10:02 am:
Hi Ladies! Butch is doing quite well,I think!Went to the "city" yesterday and got alfalfa pellets,a slow feed hay bag, salt/trace mineral block. Of course,he already had a salt block and a mineral block but Dr.O said in one of his articles that a combo of the two would be better.I also have loose salt. I don't know,this episode is not near
as bad as last year. Maybe he does just have bruised feet. But,if that is the case,I'm not doing anything,feed wise, to hurt him in any way!
Other than the thyro meds but I'm just going to trust the advice I've gotten from two vets to get him on this. I will watch him closely on this. I'm anxious for the Easyboots to get here as he is wanting turned out more and more. We've got some more severe cold coming in this week and I'll feel better knowing that his feet have some support. Trust me, I'm not going to starve this horse just because he has tailhead fat.But I agree that it can't hurt to cut some carbs and sugar,right? As long as I'm providing him with enough protein,fiber, vitamins and minerals,right?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 10:41 am:
Dr.O. I did NOT diagnose anything Gail joined my thread saying her horse was diagnosed with it, You may want to go re-read my recommendations to Gail in my EMS thread...please point out where I diagnosed anything or encouraged anything other than soaking hay, starting her own thread and getting boots????
Gail please don't take offense, when I joined here many moons ago, I felt quite attacked,
this is a good site with good recommendations.
I have to say I will not ever say another word again about anything, I guess that is what Dr.O. wants.
Hope Butch continues to improve
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 11:02 am:
DrO.Thanks so much for posting! I can really appreciate what your trying to convey here! I can assure you that I am reading your articles,not only the EMS but also, general horse nutrition.It's alot to take in, but it's all fitting with other sites I've researched on these subjects. I like this site because it's wonderful to get feedback from others with similar situations with horses and the support these people are offering to me!
I put him on the Thyro L at the advice of two DVMs.
My horse seems to be a fit with most all of the symptoms you write about with regards to EMS/Hypothyroism. It has bothered me though that I could see the outline of his ribs before the heavy winter coat came on,even though he has these large fat pockets around the tailhead.The area around his tail head is very soft feeling,not hard, but then he has some hard spots too?
I can assure you that before the camoflage of the winter coat,he was not too thin,if that's what your thinking?
My horse has gotten progressively more "lazy" with each passing year. He also has a huge appetite and can consume a large amount of hay in a short amount of time.
Is it possible that my horse has a "low grade" chronic laminitis all through the year and then with wintertime hard/frozen ground it gets aggravated? Years back, my vet tested his feet for soreness with hoof testers and he didn't appear to have any real touchy spots. My vet said that oftentimes they do not with chronic laminitis??
All I know,for sure,is that I started him on a tsp and a half of thyro L(18mg) on Jan.21st,cut his 3 lbs daily Purina Healthy Edge feed,brought him into a stall with shavings,And he seems to be coming out of it really quickly this time?
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 11:22 am:
Dr. O -- probably I should just stay out of this - but - the information Diane has provided in all her trials with her horses has helped me enormously. In a perfect world I could pick up the phone and request a farm call from an equine specialist who would have the ability and equipment to diagnose my horses problem and provide proper treatment. The one time I got a vet up here she dug some in my horses foot - wrapped it - told me I didn't need x-rays - charged me $400 - and left my horse as lame as she had been before the vet visit. Please do not think I haven't provided vet care for this mare - her vet bills total close to $30,000 - which included two weeks at WSU - about a years worth of treatment for EPM - years of shoeing with the Digital Support System - every four weeks at $200 per shoeing - I'm 67 - I've owned horses since I was 9 - during that time I've had two (2) vets who knew what they were doing. What is happening in these threads is a sharing of what has worked and what hasn't in what might be similar situations - This is extremely helpful - it also provides a great deal of moral support when one is totally lost in trying to figure out what to do to help their horse. I don't see this as a problem - and I can't understand why you should.
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 11:48 am:
Diane:PLEASE keep the posts coming!You and Nancy have been wonderful and I can tell you that your support and suggestions have been helpful!
Cheryl,Kudos to you! Ah,yes,the perfect world!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 3:45 pm:
Gail, glad to hear Butch is improving. I'm still on the lame hotel computer (which doesn't allow me to see the entire discussion), but I can see from the last few posts that Butch was diagnosed by at least one vet with EMS. And I also read he is improving. Wonderful.
Cheryl I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding this forum provides a wonderful place to share. It does help. It doesn't replace a diagnosis by a qualified professional, but the sharing is priceless for me. I was able to ask the professionals better questions about the issues I was having with my horse after reading about others' problems and by reading the helpful suggestions and questions others posted. I never assumed the contributors could diagnose my horse. In my case almost EVERYONE on this site has had, cared for, managed, etc. horses longer than I have. So their experience is priceless.
Diane, I have mentioned before on this site that you are one of the most helpful, concerned members. Don't stop being yourself. Post. It has helped many people and horses. I really appreciate the time and thought you take to help others--every day.
This site is priceless as well;the science based articles are a treasure trove for me. There is such a vast amount of info that it is overwhelming at times for this novice with little training. I read, reread, take notes, etc. I am a nerd. I cannot remember who commented that it gave her a good laugh reading about how I sorted into charts the VERBS, NOUNS, and ADJ regarding hoof care and barefoot jargon when I was trying to make sense of it all to better understand and help my horse. I consider it one of my best contributions since I have precious little horse expertise to offer. hahaha
Dr. O I appreciate your candid, frank advice. It appears sharp at times but in my case that is usually because my sensitivity is heightened in my nearly frantic worry about my horse and what "I'm" doing "wrong". I'm used to blunt delivery (I taught middle school for 20+ years...) so I swallow hard and forge ahead. A few other posters have been frank with me as well. I don't take offense; sometimes I have needed the bucket of ice water logic to get myself back on track. I appreciate the time others take to give advice, share, etc. I assume each wants to help me, not belittle me. This may not apply to anyone else here, but that's my novice perception.
Welcome to the site Gail!! Have you started a new thread like Diane suggested with all of the info/diagnosis/testing/nutrition/exercise/history, etc. about Butch? I for one would be like to read it; I'm sure it will help me with one of my horses...
I apologize to everyone for the lack of succinctness...I'm waiting THREE hours in the hotel lobby until it's time to leave for the airport.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 7:34 am:
Gail, concerning salts and minerals you have misread something. I do not recommend you combine a regular salt block and trace mineral block. You can read more about the reasons behind this at HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Minerals and Electrolytes for Horses, an Overview.
As to whether you can further cut his carbohydrates, Gail, you are the best judge of this but to make a good decision you must understand that carbohydrates are the main source of energy and fiber for horses. Have you come to a decision on what is overall body condition is? Is he still ribby under that coat? Then you have to decide if you want him to be heavier or lighter. And what recent changes have you made and have you given them time to take effect? In short I want you to make feeding decisions based on the principles in the articles I have referenced.
Cheryl and Diane, my biggest concern is illustrated in Cheryl's sentence that ends with, "in what might be similar situations." What if these are not similar situations? Advice based on incomplete information has the potential of being counterproductive by not addressing what the real situation might be or perhaps just added expense and unnecessary work? In a worse case scenerio such advice can harm.
You all came here, as Gail has, because you had problems or wanted to learn more about horses. It has always been my goal to present a objective and science based atmosphere that specifically was designed to avoid making assumptions. You learned to observe, appraise, and make decisions based on facts, some of which I hope you learned here. I presume you benefited from that perspective and that is where everyone still wants to be. It is where I want Gail to be and not just doing stuff because someone has told her to. Someone who has not examined her horse.
If you would like to continue this discussion I recommend we take it out of Gail's discussion, perhaps into the Lounge. I would also prefer we turn away from the negative energy of "who did what?" and to the positive question of "how do we best serve our fellow members and visitors?".
DrO
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 3:59 pm:
The feeding program for maintenance of the average horse is quite simple and relatively inexpensive: good to excellent quality forage fed free choice, clean water, and a trace mineral salt block. When forage alone is not enough to provide all the nutrients needed, then we turn to concentrates.
DR O. What did I misunderstand here? You make at least 3 references to a salt/trace mineral block. in the article I was reading.If not right,please tell me what's wrong with it?
Thanks , Gail
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 7:23 pm:
Hello Gail,
Gail I don't know whether you have misunderstood it or not. But since you raise the question, if you want to see how well you apply this to your horse I want you to go above and count the number of things you list that you are feeding or supplementing or considering supplementing that are not on that list. Eventually you should also take into account that your horse has been diagnosed with EMS but a thorough understanding of basic nutrition is absolutely necessary to move to the special needs of such a horse. Have you come to a decision as to your horses body condition score?
As to salt-mineral supplementation. Above you say that you are using both a salt block (NaCl with no minerals) and a trace mineral block (which is mainly salt but with trace minerals added) and you say that I have made this recommendation. As the article on Minerals clearly states this is not a good idea and explains why (A non mineralized salt block is one of things you should add to your above list).
DrO
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 11:08 am:
Dr.O. Well,now that I've read your post,I'm more
confused than ever! I bought the salt/mineral combo block based on what you had written. I also have a plain salt block,a plain mineral block and
some loose salt. I switched the other stuff out when I got the salt/mineral combo block. IF,you would be so kind to give me a personal recommendation as to which of these things would be the best, I will gladly do that.
NO. I cannot figure out his BCS. I am trying to disregard the fat pockets and figure this out but it is hard with the winter coat. I can feel his ribs when I press on his sides but I can't see them. I suspect I might see the outline of a couple of them ,if he didn't have the coat. He has a crease down his back. No vertabrae are showing. When time permits, I am going to print off your BCS chart. See what applies in different catagories,and hope that maybe you will help me fill in the blanks???
He is doing very well and not displaying much at all in the way of stiffness,lameness,etc....
He doesn't act like he is in any pain.
I am feeding his grass hay,pretty much,free choice,except that I am using the slow feed hay bag for most of it in an effort to slow down his consumption rate.
I am giving approx.a cupful of alfalfa pellets twice per day with his thyro meds/and a mag supplement on them.(I have stated this before)
Once again, If you have any suggestions on this feeding program,please tell me.
I'm just about out of the mag/chromium supp that I have been giving him for several months and am going to order something with the Biotin lysine mixture in it. My DVM suggested something along the lines of Quiessence.
We have severe cold here right now and as long as he's doing well, I don't think I should cut back on his grass hay??? Am I right?
Thanks,
gail
P.S. Would you advise a general vitamin supplement in addition. If so, could you give me some examples,taking into account something like the Quiessence or a biotin mix that I plan on adding?
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 1:09 pm:
Gail, I hesitate to jump into this conversation but one thing I'm very sure of - a plain white salt block is what is best. He apparently is already getting his minerals in the supplements you are giving him. Sometimes, if a horse isn't drinking enough a T. or two of loose table salt can be added to his supplements. Now I'm sure you are more confused than ever, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :o) Good Luck
Shirl
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 1:34 pm:
Shirley. Thankyou! I am able to follow and understand your input. I just posted to Dr.O.under the minerals articles on why I just replaced(Saturday 1/29)his plain white salt block with a trace mineral/salt block.
You see, I misunderstand what I read alot.
The only thing that is in the supplement that I'm giving him is Magnesium and Chromium and Sodium Chloride. It is called Metabol_Ease. I didn't think that quite caught all the trace minerals necessary? If I'm wrong, I can easily put out his plain white salt block and remove the Salt/trace mineral block.
What do you think?
Sincerely,gailb
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 1:49 pm:
I think it has to be your decision, however; you must remember he is getting some vitamins, minerals, etc. in his hay if it is good quality.
Again, good luck.
Shirl
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 2:54 pm:
DrO. Okay, this is my best assessment of Butch's
BCS.
6/7: creased down the back(I don't know if it would be judged,slight or more than slight.
8: Fat along innerbuttocks
7:Ribs can be felt but there is fat between them.
8/9:bulging fat around tailhead.
The rest I cannot judge:Wither,neck and shoulder area do not seem fatty to me BUT topline of neck
is thick and hard.
I NEED YOUR HELP HERE,PLEASE!
yOU ASK:What condition do I want him to be in?
My goodness! I want him to be in good health and not having any laminitis/founder problems!
Thanks,gailb
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 9:15 pm:
DrO. I do have another observation to add to Butch's BCS. Although, I feel no fat immediately
at his withers,straight below that,approx.8 to 12"inches below,on each side, there is a fatty layer that extends to just behind his front legs.
Also, I don't know if it means anything, but when I squeeze on the thick/hard topline of his neck,he acts like it hurts or irritates him.Any ideas?
Oh, one more thing. The area above Butch's eyes is usually kind of bulging and fluid feeling.This seems to be worse when I believe he is having a laminitic episode. My other horse has nothing like that. Is this the breed (saddlebred) or is there something else to this? I had someone describe their horse to me this way once upon a time when they were looking for a certain kind of hay(we have sold some hay in the past)and they indicated that that is one of the things they observe when their horse is laminitic.
Jump in here,anybody!
gailb
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 9:42 pm:
Gail, my barefoot trimmer told me that "if the fat has filled in above the eye", a horse would be very fat. She had an order of fat placement that she preferred to use to generally determine how fat a horse was (and I am grossly paraphrasing here). I cannot remember the complete order but the places are all of those you have listed above ('rain' gutters, tail head, etc). I do specifically remember she felt the fat above the eye was the 'last of her order'. Of course a horse could still be nutritionally deprived and have fat in weird places...but her "order" was a general guideline she told me to use. Looks like when she is here March 2 I should ask her what the order was...since I have forgotten.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 10:02 pm:
Gail, I do not see your email in your profile or I would PM you.
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 7:56 am:
Wow,Vicki! That's really interesting. Thanks for
sharing!
I try to get my e-mail posted.
gail
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 8:44 am:
Gail,
From your post in the Minerals Overview article discussion area I think we have this settled but let me correct some notions expressed above. It is incorrect to think that horses get all their needed minerals from their foodstuffs. Many trace minerals are deficient in our hays and pastures, particularly those which have been grazed for years. This is the whole logic behind a "trace mineral" block. Shirley you should review the Mineral Overview article.
Gail after reading the Mineral article I think you should understand that a "white" salt block is just NaCl, it does not contain any other minerals as you suggest above. As to how the mineral supplement with the added magnesium, chromium, and salt (NaCl) effects the overall balance I can only guess not knowing the amount your horse is receiving. I should say I have little faith in these products clinically helping the insulin resistant horses. There are scientific experiments that show a effect but that is different than a response that effects the horse in a clinically noticeable fashion. You can read about each of these in the mineral article and if you still have questions post them in your discussion in the mineral section.
Now back to the subject of this post your horse's body condition. If we average all your assessments and I will change your assessment of a 7 for the ribs to a 6 based on fat around them but easily(?) felt we get: (6.5 + 8 + 6 + 8.5)/4 = a little over a 7. Great!
Now on to what would be the ideal body condition. While your response is certainly what we all want for our horses one of the first steps is to decide on a ideal body condition score. What do you think this should be? If you are uncertain our article on nutrition overview and judging body condition have recommendations for most horses the article on EMS has suggestions for these horses and those with EMS that have had founder.
Gail you need to calm down a bit. Currently your horse is doing well with what you are doing. I think we are tweaking around the edges a little. Better is to take our time and figure out exactly what is going on here than to jump on faulty assumptions.
DrO
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 9:48 am:
Dr.O. Thank you! You are finally talking straight to me! In a fashion that I can understand.
I miscommunicated that about the white salt block,sorry. I did not think that it had any minerals in it. That is why I purchased a combo salt/trace mineral block just Saturday.
As far as my horses's BCS. It seems as though I have read that(for a horse prone to founder)you
suggest a BCS of around 5?
My question to you, DrO,is whether or not to keep his hay feeding amounts at the same rate as I've always been doing(pretty much free choice),20+ lbs.per day? I am asking this because I'm wondering if the Thryo L(18mgperday)should cause a speed up in his metabolism effecting a weight loss in him by itself? In other words, I do not want to overdo it,considering the extreme cold and the camoflage of the winter coat.
As far as the mag supplement. I do not have much faith in that either. I had done some research ,prior to joining your site, that suggested that this may be helpful. So back in September I started using it hoping that it might help avert a laminitc spell. I give the maintenence dose only of the mag supplement.10,000mg.mag/2.5mg.chromium,and 5,600 mg.sodium chloride(taken from the label)per day.
My horse is doing so well!A quick turnaround this time. I realize you can probably only speculate on this,but is it possible that the ThyroL I started giving him on Jan.21,could be helping him
this fast? If not,what do you think?
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 1:31 pm:
Dr.O.Would you please review the ingredients in this supplement,as your time permits,and tell me if you,personally would have any precautions for me? I don't expect a personal endorsement,only any concerns you might have.As I said,I am about out of my mag.supplement and and wanted to get something more that would include other vitamins as well as hoof growth supplement.
REMISSION
with Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes
REMISSION is a scientifically engineered blend of supportive natural ingredients with probiotics and a functional carbohydrate (second generation prebiotic) for horses foundered or prone to the risk of founder. REMISSION contains magnesium and also provides seventy antioxidants, Omega 3 and Omega 6 Fatty Acids and Amino Acids.
ANALYSIS PER OUNCE: Total Lactic Acid Bacteria (Probiotics) 175 million CFU, Magnesium 6000mg, Methionine 3000mg, Lysine 2150mg, Vitamin C 1200mg, Zinc 100mg, Vitamin E 70IU, Niacin 40mg, Biotin 20mg, Selenium 1ppm, Omega 3 Fatty Acids 1.8%
INGREDIENTS: Magnesium Oxide, Flaxseed Meal, Dl-Methionine, Stabilized Rice Bran, Brewers Dried Yeast, Saccharomyes Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, {Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Enterococcus Feacium, Bifidobacterium Longum (Fermentation Product)}, Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation extract, l-Lysine, Biotin, Zinc yeast culture, Ascorbic Acid, Chromium, Vitamin E supplement, Folic Acid supplement.
Thanks very much!
gailb
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2011 - 7:30 am:
Gail you can find my thoughts on probiotic use at HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Probiotics and Yeast Culture Products.
The effects of the thyroid medication on energy requirements are uncertain but what does our Golden Rule say about feeding forages? I am not aware of any scientific work that suggests thyroid medication treats founder. You will find my thoughts on thyroid supplementation at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Endocrine System » Hypothyroidism in Adult Equines.
DrO
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