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  Discussion on Tabacco odor? Safe to feed?
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Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 7:27 pm:

The barn where we are boarding one of our horses has put out a new large bale of hay in the pasture. It's has a brown color and smells like tabacco. The horses in the pasture have started getting diarrhea, and I'm concerned the new hay may be the cause.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 7:36 pm:

YIKES, it sounds like it fermented. We had cow hay like that. Those cows had terrible diarrhea.. They loved it tho.. I would think that could kill a horse if it's what I think it is.

I would get your horse off it ASAP...JMHO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 7:30 pm:

Yup. If it smells "off" it could create all kinds of havoc for horses.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 10:56 am:

You really don't ask for advice and certainly if you feel the hay has molded or contains toxic plants (he two reasons I could think it has an off odor) then you should have it removed or at least reviewed by a professional. However if they will put out poor quality hay there may be other management issues causing the problem so be sure to review all management details, particularly deworming. If your horse has diarrhea I would certainly contemplate a fecal if not dewormed to recently.
DrO
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 1:00 pm:

We are following our veterinarian's parasite control recommendation. We're pretty sure it is not parasite related.
The horses got diarrhea in the fall when the first large bale was put in their pasture. Things cleared up with the second and subsequent bales. But, came back with the latest bale, which as a tobacco odor to it. I found information suggesting a cause for the odor. https://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq9923
But, nothing to suggest it is dangerous, just poor quality, and harder to digest.
This being the case, should we ask to have the bale replaced?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 7:43 am:

Guy I don't see the reference you are referring to. Better would be to explain (cut and paste if you like) it in the post.
DrO
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 10:44 pm:

Check your hay or greenfeed regularly for a slight caramel or tobacco odour, a strong musty smell, a strong burning odour, visible steam, or if the feed feels hot to the touch. Another indication that your bales have heated is that the bales will lose their initial shape and flatten out.

How does heating occur?
Plant material and microorganisms on the plants continue to respire after cutting. Once the forage is baled up, it will go through a heating or sweating out process. Under normal conditions, the bale will reach temperatures no higher than 130º F (54º C). The factors that govern the extent of heating include: forage moisture content at baling, bale type (large vs small, round vs. square), bale density (soft core or hard core), environmental factors (relative humidity, ambient temperature and air movement), storage site, and use of preservatives.


Temperature
Characteristics of heating

Up to 120º F (49º C)
Not considered to cause serious forage quality loss.Mold or mustiness may develop at this temperature range. No problem.

121 to 140º F (50 to 60º C)
Heating can cause some of the protein and fibre to become less digestible. Hay will caramelize, smell like tobacco and have a brown colour. Loss in digestibility is greater at these temperatures than at lower temperatures. The level of heat damaged proteins increase. If excess heat can be released from the stack or bale, temperatures do not generally rise above 130 to 140º F (54 to 60º C). Temperature may go up and down, recheck in a few hours. Caution zone.

141 to 160º F (61 to 71º C)
Heating dominated by the respiration of fungi. At 150º F (65.5º C), check the temperature everyday! At temperatures above 160º F chemical reactions dominate the heating process these can escalate very rapidly. If temperatures continue to rise and heat cannot be released from the storage site a dangerous condition can occur. At 160º F check the temperature every four hours.

175º F (80º C)
Check temperature every few hours. Notify the fire department that you have a potential problem and ask them for their recommendations. Danger of fire.

195º F or hotter(90.5º C)
Spontaneous combustion is possible. Do not attempt to move hay without fire department assistance. Moisture loss escalates until the forage is dry enough to burn, material will ignite at 450 to 525º F (232 to 274º C).
Adapted from "Hot hay! How hot is too hot?" by Dr. Steve Barnhart Iowa State University Department of Agronomy, 1998. "Guarding Against Hay Fires" by Dr. Charles B. Ogburn, Alabama Cooperative Extension System, Auburn University, Department of Agricultural Engineering. 1995.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 10:55 pm:

Here is another link.
https://www.hayusa.net/hayinfo.html#hay151
The site specifically says the hay is not bad.
I don't know what to think.
But, they do have diarrhea when they eat it.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 4:46 pm:

Here is some more information on this odor.

Hay baled at over 20% moisture can undergo chemical changes generating heat which raises temperature enough to bind protein to carbohydrates making the protein indigestible; the reaction is called the Maillard reaction. This may be compared to the formation of caramel when sugar and milk are heated together . . . (This reaction produces a tobacco like odor in the bale) If hay is baled at over 15% moisture, heating and molding may occur, resulting in loss of nutrients. Horse owners should not purchase or test such hay until the heating period is over and the extent of the damage is known. It’s not so much a case of waiting to see how much the nutrients have changed, but waiting to see if it will be fit to purchase at all for horse feed. -

Buckmaster, D.R., Indoor Hay Storage: Dry Matter Loss and Quality Changes, factsheet PSU/92M, Penn State University

So, given this knowledge, should we be after the barn manager to replace the bale, ask for tests to establish the quality of the hay, supplement with higher protein feed, or ignore the problem?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 5:16 pm:

Guy wouldn't that form of heating be prone to produce mold? Be curious what Dr.O. has to say.

It is kind of confusing if you research carmelized hay

Here is another view

# Smell -- Not all sweet-smelling hay is good. Sometimes hay smells sweet because sugars within it caramelize which indicates mold presence. Horse owners should look closely at the hay to make sure they aren't dealing with mold issues.

I wouldn't feed the stuff to horses. The good news most horses have a good nose for mold, I know mine do, and eat around it. Of course I don't feed it on purpose, but once in awhile I toss a leaf that is moldy unknowingly but they have other choices too. Do the horses like it?

The cows did, but like I said they got very bad diarrhea from it, and didn't look very good on it.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 5:48 pm:

We started providing hay from a near by farm even before I started this discussion. But, before I went after the owner of the boarding barn, I wanted to get some input. I wanted to be fair and not over react.
I think the proof is in the horses reaction to the fresh hay. Now, they reject the off smelling large bale and eat what we give them. And, the diarrhea is gone.
The problem is there are two horses in the boarding pasture. We are now feeding them both.

So, we gotta have a little talk with the operator of the boarding barn.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 10:10 am:

I know very little about the Maillard reaction (carmalization) but reading the above it strikes me that the conditions for development are similar but the mold and mold spores form prior to the Maillard reaction. Therefore the presence of evidence of carmalization suggests enough moisture for mold formation.
DrO
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