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Discussion on Grass hay and founder
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 12, 2011 - 10:10 am:
Is it possible for a horse to founder if they are only getting orchard grass No grains at all ??
If yes how does one ever feed free choice/round bales ??
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 12, 2011 - 11:08 am:
In a word, yes. Founder isn't always related to feed. However, I would think if a horse has IR or cushings it would be less likely to founder on grass than on alfalfa, but it would totally depend on the carb/sugar content of the hay. Some grasses are pretty rich; depends on where and when they are grown and cut.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 12, 2011 - 11:35 am:
Thank you Sara,
Next part if one is soaking hay to help get a horse thru founder does it become a forever thing?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 12, 2011 - 12:26 pm:
Is the founder caused by IR? If not, soaking the hay might not be the right thing to do. I am assuming you mean Laminitis instead of founder? Or has the horse actually foundered? Have you read the articles re laminitis on HA? I found them to be a big help when dealing with Libby's laminitis. I think first you need to treat the laminitis: anti-inflamatory, pain med, pads, etc. and then you need to know what has caused it if possible. At the very least you need to know it wasn't caused by IR or Cushings. If you feel it WAS caused by either condition, then you treat the desease, and depending on which condition, you might have to soak hay. Or, you can get hay tested and feed only the lo carb/sugar stuff. Or...if you have deep pockets....you can feed something like Purina Wellness L/s along with really poor hay (ie old but clean) or with soaked beet pulp. Read the articles if you haven't already.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 12, 2011 - 4:52 pm:
Have read everything thing on the net.From here to safegrass to farrier sites etc. Not IR but do to our weird cool wet spring he got laminitis/founder on the same pasture hes been on for 12 yrs.Pete Ramey's site is great so is Jackson but I came here for hands on knowledge.The been there done that kind.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 12, 2011 - 6:38 pm:
Hello Cindy,
There is still a lot of confusion in your postings about why did your horse founder? As Sara has pointed out horses can founder for a number of different reasons and the answer to your questions will depend on the cause. If you are uncertain you should study, HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Founder & Laminitis an Overview.
If you think the cause was overgrazing on rich spring pasture, the question I would want answered is whether the horse is obese or not.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 13, 2011 - 1:16 am:
Yes it was spring grass Which is unusual for here we are semi arid.So our 4 extra inches of rain went a long ways.He is about 50 to 75lbs over weight.He is 15hand high mustang but there is some draft in there I think he is big boned. Never had shoes.Its his right front.The heat etc.is long gone I'm trying to work out best feeding Hence the soaking of grass hay even tho its last years and we don't feed grain .???
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 13, 2011 - 7:17 am:
What do you mean when you say "it's his right foot" Cindy?
As to the founder I would be concentrating more on getting your horse's condition down to a 5 on the Henneke scale as opposed to soaking last years hay. For more on feeding the overweight horse see HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Fat or Obese Horse Nutrition.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 13, 2011 - 10:09 am:
The amount of hay is right around 13lbs spread thru out the day.Both my vet and farrier have said it is his right foot that has foundered. The hay soaking is suppose to speed weight loss ???
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 13, 2011 - 10:44 am:
sorry that would be right front hoof 
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 14, 2011 - 8:30 am:
Using hay bags from this site helped me take off the extra weight from my horse who had laminitis last year: https://busyhorse.com/
I used ones with the smaller (slow down) squares to get the excess weight off and when he was turned out with my other horses used the bags with the regular square openings.
Even the regular-sized squares slow him down enough to maintain a proper weight and they also mean that my horses waste no hay.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 14, 2011 - 10:31 am:
Vicki, I'd be interested in those for stall use. What size did you get? Did you hook them up some how, or put them on the ground? I have 2 slow feeders made from wood with the chain link frame on top, but those bags sure look well made and would be useful in the stalls.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 14, 2011 - 12:49 pm:
Vicki, do the horses really leave these intact?? I have everyone off pasture on diet they are loosing save the MFT mare. Afraid she would eat the bag to get at hay
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Member:
hpyhaulr
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 14, 2011 - 4:27 pm:
I got slow feeder bags that come in 2 sizes.They have a smaller weave and come in green, red or black. They come in large/small or stall design. I use the smaller size and they work great and now Walt has the larger version on the trailer.I am not thrilled with the fiber rather than cotton, but they are holding up great. The small ones hold 4+ flakes. My minis have all lost weight, they are not wasting hay anymore, and where they would go through 4 flakes twice a day, that 4 flakes lasts them almost twice as long. I got them from Smith Brothers for $19. I LOVE them and highly recommend. Got them back in March.He will be taking the hay racks out of the stalls next week and we will hang the big ones for Tuffy. She has a tendency to put on weight and I have a tendency to spoil her. I have tried one with her a few nights and she did great.And with the smaller weave, I never have to worry about someone getting hung up in one.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 14, 2011 - 9:48 pm:
Good to know.Pest is my concern.You should see the gymnastics she goes thru trying get back on the pasture ! She learned how to lift and slide the gate latch on a noble gate ,turn the door knob on the human barn door and Walk thru the water tank, Sigh !!!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 14, 2011 - 9:57 pm:
The bags from Busy Horse really hold up great. I've used them in all kinds of weather -- sun, rain, etc., and my horses have not managed to damage them in any way.
I have installed hanging (tie?) rings in each horse stall and also put some outdoors in three of the trees near my FL barn.
I use double end snaps to hang the bags, using two snaps (one facing each way)on each bag. In case one opens up there is another for back up there. There are strong, circular metal rings at the top of each bag -- one on each side, so using the snaps keeps the top fairly well closed up so the horse can't grab the hay out of the top.
You can get the circular tie rings (which are attached to a circular eye hook with a screw end) from JEFFERS in a bag of 10 for a very reasonable price.
A plain circular eye hook will also do, but those tend to gradually turn around in the wall over time.
I bought bags with both the regular size openings and also slow down bags. I bought the regulars in green and the slow downs in black so it is very easy for me to quickly determine which is which.
The size that I use is determined by time of year and the condition of the horses.
Right now I am hanging a bit of hay each morning in my stalls using the slow down bags. Last winter and this spring I used the bags with the regular-sized square openings and my horses did very well with keeping their weight just right. My Vet was very pleased with their condition as they were not fat for a change!
The capacity that I think is best is the "grand" --the largest capacity bag. It says on their site that these hold 2 or more flakes but you can put more than that in the grands if you pack it in and let the bags get fat, which doesn't seem to hurt them at all. Forget the "snack size" bag. My horses didn't care for that and it proved to be a waste of money.
One thing that I really like about these bags is that they are safe, strong and simple.
I have experimented with the height to hang them and prefer if they are just a few inches above the floor -- high enough to stay dry and clean but also low enough so that it is easier to hang them and closer to natural grazing height.
My husband makes fun of me for being a "gadget" person but he really is impressed with these bags too. One of the best things that I have done for my boys, and me!
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 14, 2011 - 10:43 pm:
Wow, thanks for the link to Busy Horse, those are similar to nibblenet but not as expensive. I find they keep my nags busy and the food around longer (they're supposed to simulate natural grazing as they slow them down a great deal). I do recommend the 2" holes for the mares (they tend to be more aggressive about feed than the boys for some reason - could be just my horses but thought it was worth a mention), alfalfa is better w/the 2" as it's stemmier but grass hays are good w/the 1.5" holes.
My mares will tear up the 1.5" hole bags in frustration because it takes them too long to get a mouthful so I switched them back to the 2" holes. Just a thought.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 14, 2011 - 11:22 pm:
Cindy, Founder is almost always a bilateral disease, what was the diagnosis of founder based on?
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2011 - 7:51 am:
Hi,
I second Vicki on the busyhorse slow hay feeder. Bought one over a year ago for my horse that appears to inhale hay. It really slows him down and has survived without any damage.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2011 - 9:19 am:
Thanks Vicki! I think I have all the hooks already, so just need to order the bags. I've been wanting some kind of slow feeder for the stalls but hubby hasn't come up with a way to build them yet that doesn't end up getting too big and inconvenient.
I would order the largest size with the smaller holes, and also hang it lower than I see pictures of hay bags hanging.
Cindy,
are you sure it was founder from feed? One foot IMO sound suspicious of a trim job done poorly. Having done that to my most sensitive horse twice in a four year period, I assure you looks like founder when one hoof is hurting! My horse stood with one foot forward, and his pulses were pounding, and he didn't like to move.
How long ago did this happne? Is the horse moving comfortably now?
Soaking the hay for an hour and draining it will take the sugars out, and yes it will speed up weight loss, I have done that while keeping my guy in "sick bay" (round pen)
I have now started using a grazing muzzle on him also since I have too much graze, and I want to get some more weight off him.
It would be helpful to see a side view of the horse to see his current condition, and pictures of the hoof in question. Many things cause hoof soreness and the term founder can be used to describe it but I THINK actual founder means the coffin bone has rotated.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2011 - 2:19 pm:
Angie, a bad farrier trim was my first thought as Whiskey was fine, tho over weight by 63lbs and after trim he could hardly walk. My farrier just finished an ugly divorce ??? My vet was out early on and thought it was his right front but no reaction to hoof tester. The right front did founder but was caught I hope fast enough.He is still sore but has held his Alpha position and actually kinda trotted yesterday.This all has happened in the last 3wks.
New barefoot farrier thinks the left may have just begun because the right was so sore ,but was stopped at the very start.The work he did really changed the horses feet.My arab gelding had been stumbling but not now  . Perhaps a perfect storm as I thought about it in 8 days time they got shots wormed and an unhappy farrier ??
Vicki the bags sound wonderful maybe even Pest proof.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2011 - 2:58 pm:
Cindy, I think you hit the nail on the head, perfect storm; too much with shots and a poor trim. As I found out, it don't take much to sore a horse trimming! My last goof resulted immediate soreness leading him out of the cross ties. Ouch ouch ouch! I also knew what I did to cause it, and how to correct it: A bit of pain med for 2-3 days, padded hoofs, then bought boots for turn out, and had him on sand the rest of the time in a stall. Even after the ouchiness was gone, boots on turnout. It took 3 weeks before I quit worrying so much, and just the other day when I tweaked for balance, bars, bevel, and backing up toes, did he trot and canter off over rocks and seem back to good health.
Thanks to much advice from others that went through this, I started a plan to get weight off him too. If you have a good barefoot farrier now, I bet Whiskey will good as gold from now on.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2011 - 4:46 pm:
Angie he has never lost his "tude" or his appetite so I have great hopes also.
I did learn one helpful trick. My horses starting eating the barn !!! A friend uses Irish spring soap to stop her woodchcks! What a wonder that turned out to be, no more wood eating!
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