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Discussion on Help for foundered mare's feet
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 30, 2011 - 1:51 pm:
Hi Dr.O.
Maybe you remember my two mares that are chronic founder cases; Libby whose "good" foot foundered due to weight bearing while recovering from severe tendon injuries to opposite front leg; and Sahira who foundered on all four feet during a bout of purpura hemorrhagica many years ago. We have been able to keep both mares mostly comfortable until late this summer, when Sahira has started to become more and more sore imo.
Our farrier decided some time ago to not put shoes on either mare as they were both very sore for a few days after shoeing. They seem to do fairly good barefoot. However, I am very concerned about the shape of their hooves. Both mares' foundered feet are curling upwards at the toe. Sahira's is so bad she can only put weight at the bars, or at least that is what it looks like. When I talk to the farrier, he says all severly foundered horses' feet do this after awhile and there is nothing to be done about it and he is pleased and amazed both mares are still around as he says usually the feet become so bad they have to be put down.
I am taking both mares in for x-rays on the 3rd and will try and post pictures. Both have front feet that are curling. Is this inevitable? I have never seen it except in a pony and a donkey that I don't believe were ever trimmed. Once their feet do this, is it too late to repair the damage? This is an issue I have been arguing about with the farrier for some time. I couldn't take the mares comfortably down to the "leg man" in Las Vegas due to the hot weather; as it is the almost three hours in the trailer is very difficult for them both.
One mare, btw, has limited blood supply to the outside wall on one hoof, which is affecting growth. However, the other mare has (or had last year when checked) no circulation problems.
Thanks for any insight.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 30, 2011 - 8:22 pm:
WOW, Sara.
I know of many horses who have had rotation due to founder (including the coffin bone falling through the hoof) where the horses have gone back to work, performing and breeding.
To look at their feet you would not know that they had foundered and their toes do not turn up.
I of course know of some horses who did not have such a normal outcome who have been eventually euthanized or live their lives in boots, but I really feel that a lot of how things go has to do with appropriate Vet and farrier care of the feet post founder.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Oct 31, 2011 - 12:37 am:
Well, there lies the problem in large part Vicki. It's very frustrating to say the least. The vet in Las Vegas is good and knows a lot about feet, but during the summer a trip down there would quite probably be way too much for Sahira at least. Farriers are another matter. The one I have is the best in the area, the best I've seen since we moved to UT. However, he has a local attitude towards horses and seems to try to feel that if the horses can't be ridden, why bother? I have to push to get the girls trimmed as often as I do, which imo isn't often enough. He will do what the vet says though. Maybe if we can get a "base line" we can work with them and get them sort of normal. I will say they were both turned out today and seemed to do pretty good. Amazing considering how their feet look imo. Right now I can't get boots on their feet as they are too mishappen. When they are very sore I wrap in multiple diapers and duct tape for protection.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Oct 31, 2011 - 3:55 pm:
Hope that you can find a way to make some progress, Sara.
It sounds like quite an ordeal.
I wonder whether having a good farrier or Vet apply some castings would help your horses make a transition more successfully.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 2, 2011 - 2:10 pm:
Hi Vickie. I was wondering about the castings also. Where did you find out about them? I had the mares turned out the last two days before our snow hit and they did amazingly well. Libby even trotting around some. Sahira's right foot still sore. I worry about them with the ground's freezing and the cold weather coming. I know the cold seems to bother Sahira especially and being shut in seems to make both of them worse, yet walking on frozen uneven ground isn't good for them either. I put mats out for them to walk on between the barn and arena so I think they can walk to arena without feet getting sore. Moving around out there some will help I think but I can't leave them out there all the time without anyone to watch them. I will know more I hope after tomorrow.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 2, 2011 - 3:50 pm:
Hello Sara,
No the curling is not inevitable and suggests that the wall of the toes are being left too long. Proper trimming will be aided by knowing exactly the position of the coffin bone so I agree that radiography will help you. If I remember correctly these are very badly rotated feet the last time I saw radiographs.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 2, 2011 - 4:17 pm:
Yes, they are badly rotated, at least Sahira's right is very bad, almost through the sole but not quite. To my knowlege there has not been any further active laminitis, just soreness. No heat, rapid pulses etc.
I will try and post x-rays after their vet visit tomorrow.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 2, 2011 - 5:01 pm:
Sara,
Here is a link with information about the castings:
https://www.equicast.us/videos/laminitisvideos.html
The farrier who has put castings on a couple of my horses this summer here in the Virginia mountains trained under Dr. Stewart.
They give the entire hoof capsule a great deal of support.
Pete Ramey has written favorably about their use, as has podiatrist K.C. LaPierre.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 3, 2011 - 1:34 pm:
Sara - so sorry to hear about Libby's and Sahira's problems. Hope that after radigraphs and good recommendations from a vet your trimmer will follow those recommendations. Good luck!
Lilo
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 12, 2011 - 11:05 am:
Sorry to be so long with no posts re: this. We had to leave town the day after x-rays were taken and got home last night.
Good news is there has been no further rotation since last x-rays were taken. I tried to figure out how to post the x-rays, but couldn't do so since they aren't digital. I tried scanning as a negative, and as a picture but neither worked. If I figure out a method, I'll post.
Bad news is the worst foot on each horse looks almost identical, which surprised me. I expected Sahira's to look much worse than Libby's as she is much more lame and sore acting. Both feet, Libby's esp. show deteriation of the coffin bone toe and development of the "fairy toe" look. Vet said not too bad yet. Heels are way to long and way too much toe on both horses.
Vet also thinks one has some white line as there is wall separation. I've asked the farrier about this separation in the past and he's thought the separation is from wall being too long and isn't white line, and it has looked better when feet are trimmed. I will really pay attention and do some poking at this area after their feet have been trimmed.
Vet says, as I have also heard and read previously I believe on this site and other posts, to do a little at a time and gradually bring the heels down and toe off. The little at a time will be the trick as it's becoming increasingly difficult to get my farrier - who lives across the street!-to come regularly!  If I can't succeed in getting him, I'll have to take drugs myself and try and do the rasping myself. There are no other farriers I would let touch my horses, unless someone new has moved into the area that I don't know about yet.
I have looked at the equicast site Vickie. It looks very interesting as you can give the horse protection with minimal disturbance/trauma to the foot and leg. Right now the farrier has the x-rays and I am going to give him the link to the site so he can learn. Too me it sounds like a good thing to do.
Farrier is very hesitant to do any work on the horses when a storm is coming in - even on the sound horses. Is there any merrit to this concern? It seems to be a common conception here. I do notice arthritic horses worse when bad weather comes in, just like my knees and ankle hurt then, but do weather changes affect the foot and would bad weather coming make trimming more difficult on the horse?
Thanks. Will keep you posted.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 12, 2011 - 11:46 am:
Hello Sarah,
What exactly is his concern with doing farrier work with a storm coming in? For making digital copies of radiographs I have had success with both digital cameras and scanners though settings are often trial and error. For taking a picture with a digital camera, place the radiograph on a viewer and using exposed developed film block off any light along the edges of the film. Darken the room and turn the cameras flash off. I find this works with most recent model cameras.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 12, 2011 - 2:50 pm:
Duh! Why didn't I think about trying to take a picture of the xray?! I'll try that this afternoon. Thanks.
He seems to feel that changing barometric pressures, cold and wind etc. make the horse more sore after having work done. Also, if it's going to be wet and cold - even on horses that have no problems. I would suspect he doesn't want to go out and work in this weather, except that he always works in the barn where conditions are pretty good. Horses in cross ties and rubber mats, etc. And, hot coffee available.
Farrier is coming this afternoon to take a little off heels and start to take off long toes. He says it's only "like horn material" and we don't need to go so carefully/slowly on the toes. I want him to go slow anyway and just take off a little then come back and take off more.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 13, 2011 - 11:21 am:
Hi Sarah, here is my humble input.
I just read about your horses . Do I understand well, that they were wearing shoes ? Having the shoes, did the frogs reach the ground ?
If you take shoes off - it is a great shock to the system/feet . They might be sore just from that change - of course they were sore for a while . It is GOOD you've taken the shoes off !!
The change-overwill be difficult , but it had to be done.
Yes , slow and frequent trimming is necessary . Let the farrier give them basic trim and YOU get yourself a rasp and every week, tweak a little - you can do it ! As Angie does it, I do it (when not incapacitated after my surgeries .) Eventually you'll get so good at it you won't have to call the farrier so frequently .
And don't let them walk on a frozen, hard, uneven ground now.
Sorry if I am so forward with my little knowledge , I've learned from DVD and HA postings. It is very satisfying doing it yourself .,
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 13, 2011 - 11:44 am:
No, the mare's have not had shoes on for a long time. Libby did have clogs on at one point, and did well in them as far as movement goes. However, they seemed to affect circulation in the foot and we had to remove them. They did help her through an accute episode. Both mares seem to do best barefoot. They are turned out when ground is soft. If ground is too wet or frozen, then are in deeply bedded stalls and get put in indoor arena for exercise. They definately do much better when they move around.
At one point Sahira had an abcess where her coffin bone had rotated almost through the sole; and another near the hoof wall. There has been no sign of abcess all summer and there has been a lot of sole growth.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 13, 2011 - 11:49 am:
Dr.O, farrier says hoof wall doesn't grow down in front due to lack of circulation and that is what causes the curling. He seems to feel that, although he did trim a lot of it off, neither horse will ever have normal hoof growth due to lack of circulation; that is something that can't be corrected due to trimming in his opinion. Foot can be made to look nice, but new hoof wall won't grow. What is your opinion on this?
Farrier has x-rays; he forgot to bring them back yesterday. I'll get them today and take pictures of them an post. I will also post "after" pics later today. Meanwhile, I'll post a couple of "before" pictures.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 13, 2011 - 12:00 pm:
This is after wall on sides and heel had been nipped but before work on toe or rasping. Suddenly occured to me I should be taking photos! LOL
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 13, 2011 - 12:02 pm:
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2011 - 7:03 pm:
Sara,
I too think the destruction of the live laminar tissues, including the blood supply, will continue to result in the toe to grow abnormally. Leaving this abnormal horn to grow way out front just acts as a lever to further increase the stress which causes this remarkable flare every time he takes a step. It is hard to see a downside of removing this excessive flare and roll. If there is concern it may further expose the sole to pressure do it slowly.
DrO
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