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  Discussion on Worth doing a prepurchase exam on this horse?
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New Member:
arary

Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2012 - 9:27 pm:

I have a horse that I have been riding since September, and am considering purchasing him. However, he has a few issues that raise red flags. I would of course do a thorough prepurchase exam before considering buying him, but after our latest problem I'm thinking I'm crazy for even considering him.

Here's the situation. This is a 7 yo OTTB, been sitting in a field for a couple years after leaving the track. He came off the track sound but was having trouble with swelling in the tendons (not always the same leg either) and the owner didn't want to ruin the horse so he gave him to the current owner, a family friend. I started riding him 9 mo ago and immediately noticed he had a mild "hitch" in his RH leg. Just a short step and dragging the toe a bit. Put him on the lunge line to the left and he looked fine, but to the right looked quite lame. Looked relatively sound on straight lines. I spent 2 months just doing light walk-trot on a long rein to build him up, and the problem went away. Eventually I forgot about it.

Took him to several clinics with big name dressage trainers and nobody noticed anything wrong. In fact, all raved about what a nice mover he was. However, I noticed that he had excessive wear on the toes of his hind feet, particularly the RH. Farrier said the horse was giving himself a "natural trim" and not to worry.

Fast forward to February- cold, dark, I'm not riding much. Problem came back. A little "hitch" in the RH at the trot. Plus we had a few issues with the horse bucking me off shortly after mounting. Figured it was a frisky TB, no big deal. Got him back in shape and both problems went away. Also started him on Cosequin and it seemed to help.

Everything was going well. Went to first show and placed well. I'm thinking about making an offer on the horse. But work got crazy and I was not able to ride for 2 weeks. Came out to the barn yesterday and put 1 foot in the stirrup when the horse started bucking like a bronc. Put him on the lunge line and sure enough, he looks noticeably short on the RH and right hip is "hitching." Lunged him until tired enough I felt safe to get on again, walked 20 steps, and horse starts humping up his back to buck. Got off and lunged some more, again only to the left so I wouldn't stress his bad leg. Came out today and put him on lunge just to see what he looked like, and RH is even MORE hitchy, looks noticeably lame. Palpated his back and feels sore in the area just behind the saddle and in front of right hip.

So I guess I'm asking if it's even worth having this horse vetted. Can you think of any explanation for his problems that's manageable in the long run, or does this sound like a lost cause? I've learned my lesson about letting him go without work and once I get him back in shape I'll keep riding this time. But I want to do some pretty serious showing (dressage) and a little jumping. Owner has been resistant about having a vet look at him. I think she thinks he's just stiff and I need to ride him through it. I don't want to spend $1000 on a prepurchase exam just to find out that this horse is always going to have soundness problems. Could it just be a weak stifle that will be fine so long as he's kept in shape, or am I completely delusional?
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Apr 30, 2012 - 1:08 am:

Mmmm...you've been working with this horse long enough to get a real feel for his problem. I think down deep you really know the answer to your question. Are you perhaps thinking that you might be more comfortable sticking with the "devil you know" rather than stepping out and finding another horse...then...getting stuck with the "devil you don't know"?

Have you researched the market around you yet? In this recession, there are many good prospects out there, but no buyers. Before you make up your mind about this horse, you're best move would probably be to do some hard looking.

I had a horse who dragged his back toes. He had weak suspensories. Never gave him any problems. He showed English Pleasure and Hunter over fences. He showed until he was 25 and he was ridden 'til he died ( colic ) at 38. I also have a mare that had two stifle lock-ups before she was 3. Although it never seemed to trouble her, some days she was an ear pinning, tail wringing turd...which didn't help her in the show ring. Now she is 32 and not ridden any longer. For the past 2 years, she has exhibited a "hitch" in the hip area of the leg she had the stifle problem in. Sooo...perhaps her problems, long ago, might not have been due to "mare-ishness" like we thought.

Sometimes the "nebulous" intermittent problems are the toughest ones to rise above. They don't completely stop us, but they do wear us down. One thing is certain - if you decide to chance it, get yourself a really good exam.

In the meantime, look around and get your name out there as a prospective buyer. See what happens. Maybe the owner of your horse might agree to call in the vet. After all, you've put in quite a bit of work on that horse, yourself.

Best of luck!
Member:
frances

Posted on Monday, Apr 30, 2012 - 1:15 am:

One thought crosses my mind: maybe there's an in between course you could take: rather than having a whole expensive pre-purchase exam right away, have a vet out just to investigate this specific issue first. Then you can decide on the next step.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 30, 2012 - 12:51 pm:

Hello Angela,
I would normally say welcome on the first post but I see you have been lurking quite a long time.

In short I don't recommend you buy a horse that has signs present that would prevent him from doing what he is being bought for. When you ask, "what might be wrong?" the list is very long indeed. If you wish to pursue this horse I like LL's suggestion.
DrO
New Member:
arary

Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 - 12:15 am:

Good advice from everyone, thank you. I do think some of my interest in the horse is the "stick with the devil you know" thinking. Also this is a really nice moving TB who should be competitive against the warmbloods (which are way out of my price range). Plus I just like him. He's easy to ride. I've done most of the training on him, and he was so easy to get round and on the bit. He's soft in the bridle. I can really feel him rounding over his back and using his hindquarters.

I ride so many horses that are either too quick and tense, or behind my leg and I can't get them forward. Or I have trouble getting them really "through." But this horse is just right for me: just forward enough but not too quick. He's sensitive to my aids, especially my seat, but not to excess. This is a horse I really ride well. He makes me feel like I'm not only a good rider, but a good trainer. I've been riding a long time and have a lot of knowledge, but I'm not such a great athlete.

Finding a horse where success comes easily is no small feat, and it's what makes me still consider the horse despite all the warning signs. But if
I spend hundreds of $ on a vet exam only to be told he's never going to stay sound, I'll not have enough money to buy another horse. Dr. O, can you think of a bare minimum veterinary exam at the lowest cost that would at least give me the answers "consider this horse further" or "give up now, he has major soundness issues?" What should I ask for?
Member:
babychop

Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 - 10:35 am:

Angela you're sending up red flags of your own on that last post. You're not going to have enough money to buy another horse if you spend all that money on a pre purchase exam. What if it's his stifle? Or arthritis in his hock? You won't be able to determine those by just watching him go and issues like that will be with him for life. Issues like these will determine what you will be able to do with him and whether or not you'll be able to sell him should it not work out for those reasons, then you'll be stuck feeding him for a very long time with no horse to show if he becomes progressively unsound.

If you're seriously considering an OTTB have you tried some of these OTTB re-homing sites? Three Chimneys is famous for their efforts, The Second Race has re-homed many for free or very close to it. There are a lot out there and you can go meet the horse and learn about him or her first, unlike some of those you might purchase from across country. There are so many TBs bred for the racing industry you can find them for a song once they're done with racing, it's a buyers market and this horse has some issues (the bucking can be very dangerous, I have a friend who recently wound up in the hospital for same). Most of the free OTTBs are just track broke but it's a start, you'd have to give them some down time to defrag from track stress and then start from the beginning but they're smart horses and pick things up quickly. They need a job and like to learn.

I think you're wise to have doubts about this situation. This horse is telling you something. Listen.
Member:
babychop

Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 - 11:19 am:

Here is just an example of what's out there.


Southern California)-- Hiatus-- Gelding

Hiatus is a beautiful grey seven year old gelding by Marias Mon out of a Gulch mare. Hiatus earned $ 90,000 during his racing career and was a $ 210,000 September Keeneland purchase as a yearling.

Hiatus has been retired from racing due to a suspensory injury on right leg has a small tear, that is not noticeable. He will need 6 months off before he can begin jogging. With patience and time he can do low level jumping. He has tons of body and would be beautiful as a dressage horse. Hiatus stands 16hh. For an adoption application, please contact us at thesecondrace@gmail.com THANKS
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 - 2:50 pm:

Hello Angela,
Without a known destination the route is impossible to guess.

A simple lameness examination would be the place to start and see where that takes you. A third possible or even likely response from the veterinarian might be "We don't know and need to do x and it will cost you y". From there you can decide whether to pursue this but if the financial situation is that tight I would consider whether to take on what could be a lengthy and costly trip.
DrO
New Member:
arary

Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 - 10:59 pm:

Yes I suppose I just wanted a confirmation of what I already was thinking- this horse is likely to fail a vet check. However, the horse proposed by the previous poster has a suspensory tear. Doesn't sound so great to me either! It clearly say he will be suitable for low level dressage. Not a glowing endorsement. More arguement for my "devil you know" idea.

At least my prospect is built uphill, readily rounds over his topline, is light on the forehand, and easy to bring "on the bit." NOT an easy thing to find in an OTTB. I could probably look at 100 OTTBs and not find another with his movement and conformation suitable for dressage. They are bred to run, not for dressage after all. I think I will have a vet come do a simple lameness exam and see where that takes me. I can let the vet decide if the horse is worth putting more money into to continue the exam. The owner did arrange for a chiropractor to work on the horse, so it will be interesting to see where that leads. I wish we could have a full veterinary exam instead though. Thanks everyone!
Member:
frances

Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2012 - 7:03 am:

Good luck Angela. He sounds like a really nice horse.
Member:
canderso

Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2012 - 8:23 am:

Hi Angela,

Clearly you like this horse and that makes a tough situation. It also looks like, many of us, you have limited money to spend. It also appears that you have little or no money for veterinary bills (one time or on-going).

Notice that nobody has posted that it is reasonable to expect that the horse will be wonderful and everything will work out, the lameness will spontaneously resolve itself and you will be competing in Dressage, beating all those pricey warmbloods in no time.

There is a reason why nobody is saying this: We have all seen this situation before, many of us have been through it. 99.9% of the time it DOESN'T work out.

No matter how wonderful this horse is, if it is lame it will never be competitive in the dressage ring at ANY level. To get the horse sound is going to cost money... probably LOTS of money... and it may not work.

If you want a horse to ride and love and hang out with, then maybe this is the horse for you. BUT you need to ask yourself if you can honestly allow your horse to be in pain. At a minimum that would mean limitations on what you can/should do with your horse. It probably also means vet and/or medication.

And if you honestly want to step into the show ring, well, truth is all you will be doing is wasting show fees because a lame horse doesn't win anything. Even worse, the rider gets a bad reputation for riding an obviously lame horse. Worst of all is there is often a trainer behind the scenes more interested in getting paid than in looking out for the horse.

I am sorry to be so blunt but we all get caught up in the thought of owning a horse, without really really thinking things through. Done it (and do it) myself! We all regret it, and we all try (some more tactfully than others) to prevent others from making the same very expensive mistake.

Good luck, and I hope I didn't offend...
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2012 - 8:57 am:

I've seen many and currently know several OTTB that have gone on to do very, very well in dressage, including upper levels. I know you really like this horse, but in this case, don't let your heart over rule where your head is leading.
Member:
babychop

Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2012 - 10:06 am:

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting you adopt the grey horse, he is just an example of what's out there - I have seen lots of very nice OTTBs up for adoption that are sound. He just came up the day you posted.

I still think it wise you keep looking given the issues you've stated but it's your decision and you will have to live with it. Don't get in a hurry, you may regret it.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, May 7, 2012 - 12:17 am:

The owner has no other interested buyers, I take it? If not, then perhaps you can just string things along for awhile....You could experiment with a heavier work load ( nice weather is here )and see what the results are. By the way, does he "never" get tendon swelling anymore? Does he always lunge a little "hitchy" to the right?

If you call the vet out to check the RH, try to create the conditions beforehand, that seem to bring the behaviour out. You just might get an answer.
New Member:
arary

Posted on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 11:05 pm:

Update on this horse:

Ok, so you guys had pretty much convinced me not to go with my heart and pursue this horse. After all, that little gait irregularity that we euphemistically call "stiffness" or "weakness" is what a vet calls "lameness." I get it.

But then a new wrinkle appeared. I had asked the owner to have a vet come look at the horse since the toe dragging/short stride on the right hind had gotten worse and the horse's back is sore. Well, she doesn't believe me about the gait irregularity but a sore back she couldn't dispute. So she called a chiropractor. This nice lady who worked as a traditional vet for many years before specializing in chiro/acupuncture came out and performed a chiropractic adjustment and did some acupuncture treatment. The horse was immediately less back sore.

I gave him a day off (as recommended) and put him on the lunge line for then next several days. He looked 99.9% better. The RH is tracking up normally (no short step.) No "hitching." A little bit of toe dragging on the RH but barely noticeable. She said that his pelvis and low back were severely "out" and she sees this pattern a lot on horses off the track since the pelvis doesn't fuse until 5 yo and the horses are racing at 3 yo. Not only is the gait irregularity almost imperceptible, but the horse is moving more forward, taking a better contact, and for the first time ever his mouth is quiet (usually he chomps the bit a lot).

The vet says his only problem is chiropractic and she pretty much "fixed" him. May need more adjustments to hold it, but nothing else wrong with him. Then again, to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail. To a chiropractor, every problem looks like a subluxation. Can the answer truly be just that he needed an adjustment or am I dreaming again?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 5:38 pm:

Hello Angela,
Without looking at the horse we cannot judge what might be wrong. Unless increased risk of this horse not meeting your goals is not a concern for you, I would not recommend buying the horse until he is sound for your use and considering the history, has stayed that way a while.
DrO
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